Killing people to prevent corruption, right? Or wrong and leave it to God...
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Salam
From Qurancorpus word for word
53210)
qatala
kills V ? 3rd person masculine singular perfect verb(53211)
nafsan
a soul N ? accusative feminine singular indefinite noun(53212)
bighayri
other than P ? prefixed preposition bi
N ? genitive masculine noun(53213)
nafsin
(for) a soul N ? genitive feminine singular indefinite nounthe word 'kill' isn't here, but the message is clear the eye for the eye and the soul for the soul.
Salam peace -
Peace hawkninetynine,
I agree with you and the ayat, however my problem is what LEVEL of protection do we use? Say a man, who is mentally unstable (obviously) kills another person for the sake that he despied him and was. . I dunno, jealous let's say. What is his level of punishment according to God's law. Does he face a lengthy imprisonment? Is he deemed unwell and placedin a mental home? Death penalty perhaps? Do you see what I'm saying?
Peace peaceYes, I see what you are saying, If such a situation arises that a person is violent but mentally ill, then they
should be secluded from society to protect everyone from that person.The blind is not to be blamed, the crippled is not to be blamed, nor the handicapped is to be blamed, just as you are not to be blamed for eating at your homes, or the homes of your fathers, or the homes of your mothers, or the homes of your brothers, or the homes of your sisters, or the homes of your fathers' brothers, or the homes of your fathers' sisters, or the homes of your mothers' brothers, or the homes of your mothers' sisters, or the homes that belong to you and you possess their keys, or the homes of your friends. You commit nothing wrong by eating together or as individuals. When you enter any home, you shall greet each other a greeting from GOD that is blessed and good. GOD thus explains the revelations for you, that you may understand.
May God guide us along the path
Peace
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I think you are refering tothe Talmud and how the Quran countered the concept of disproportionate justice outlined in the Talmud
The Talmud (i.e., the Babylonian Talmud) text of Sanhedrin 37a restricts the duty to save life to saving only Jewish lives.
The book on Hebrew censorship, written by Jews themselves (Hesronot Ha-shas), notes that some Talmud texts use the universalist phrase
"Whoever destroys the life of a single human being...it is as if he had destroyed an entire world; and whoever preserves the life of a single human being ...it is as if he had preserved an entire world."
However, Hesronot Ha-shas points out that these are not the authentic words of the original Talmud.
In other words, the preceding universalist rendering is not the authentic text of the Talmud and thus, for example, this universalist version which Steven Spielberg in his famous movie, Schindler's List attributed to the Talmud (and which became the motto of the movie on posters and in advertisements), is a hoax and constitutes propaganda intended to give a humanistic gloss to a Talmud which is, in its essence, racist and chauvinist hate literature.
In the authentic, original Talmud text it states that "whoever preserves a single soul of Israel, it is as if he had preserved an entire world" (emphasis supplied). The authentic Talmud text sanctions only the saving of Jewish lives.
The Koran tells us about this and condemns this
5.32 On that account We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our apostles with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land
URL http//able2know.org/topic/157270-1
The Quran is once again reminding us that justice should be based on a soul for a soul and an eye for an eye and not a thousand eye for an eye (Judaism) or an eye for an eye lash (Islam).
Peace Bigmo,
I hope you don't take this offensively but currently at the moment I'm looking at this simple from the quranoc point of view. After that then I'm happy to discuss previous scriptures. You say the story is about cane and abel. Could you go into more detail about this? What is your view specifically using the quran only about killing and punishments within this world.
Thanks and peace peace
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Peace Sushi,
Thanks for the aayat.
As per my understanding, Allah is not asking anyone to give them punishment but Allah is saying that they are doing such wrong that their punishment could be such as those mentioned in 533. If you check 532 it is about saving a life, which is in clear contradiction with the understanding of 533 to me.
It may need more study by relating other aayaats.
May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us to His only path pr
mmKhanPeace mmkhan,
So by your understanding there is no punishment for killing in this world that should be done by us?
peace
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Right. But to understand that verse you need to look at the community the Quran is refering to. In this case its the Israelite community. What the Talmud did was limited that verse to the Israelites. Since a Jewish live now is equal to the whole world, than if a crime is commited against a Jew than the punishment can be collective. A Jewish eye for a thousand gentile eye. Since saving a Jewish eye is equivalent to saving the whole world's eye. The Quran here is talking about premediated murder and it does so explicitly. this is spereate from manslaughter where the Quran stipulated financial compensation since it was unintentional. But it also allowed relieving as a charity. However in intentional murder the Quran allwed capital punishment but allowed exile from the community as a lower ceiling. A person who intentionally kills can not be allowed to go free like manslaughter since he is capable of doing the same thing again. The highest ceiling can not go above capital punishment for premediated murder. A soul for a soul but it can go less like being exiled from the community. This is why some countries have life imprisonment as an alternative for intentional murder.
Chapter 5
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Recite to them the truth of the story of the two sons of Adam. Behold! they each presented a sacrifice (to Allah. It was accepted from one, but not from the other. Said the latter "Be sure I will slay thee." "Surely," said the former, "(Allah) doth accept of the sacrifice of those who are righteous.
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"If thou dost stretch thy hand against me, to slay me, it is not for me to stretch my hand against thee to slay thee for I do fear Allah, the cherisher of the worlds.
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"For me, I intend to let thee draw on thyself my sin as well as thine, for thou wilt be among the companions of the fire, and that is the reward of those who do wrong."
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The (selfish) soul of the other led him to the murder of his brother he murdered him, and became (himself) one of the lost ones.
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Then Allah sent a raven, who scratched the ground, to show him how to hide the shame of his brother. "Woe is me!" said he; "Was I not even able to be as this raven, and to hide the shame of my brother?" then he became full of regrets-
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On that account We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our apostles with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land.
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The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;
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Except for those who repent before they fall into your power in that case, know that Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
As can be seen this is talking about intentional murder. The Quran than tells us why murder is such a crime because when you kill someone you are also killing all his future offsprings who could have existed. Imagine all theoffspings of that son of Adam who could have existed had he remained alive and allowed to produce offspring. That is why murder is such a crime in God's eyes. But the Israelites limited that to Jewish life. This then lead them to justify disproportionate retribution for Jews. This was the Talmudic spin on that tradition the Quran talked about. The Quran than stipulates that when it comes to intentional murder the highest ceiling is capital punishment but allowed exile from the community as the lowest ceiling.
That is what I am trying to say. The context that the verses appear in the Quran and whom it was refering to when it came commiting excesses. Excesses means disprotionate justice as what some Israeli politcians believe Israel is allowed to do whenever Palestinians attack them. They retaliate by disproportianate collective punishment.
Islam converted the law of proprtionality to justice based on deterence. Harsh laws are allowed to act as a deterence to prevent crime. The Quran is not interested about preventing crime. Crime will always exist. Its interested about proportional justice. The eye for an eye and a hand for a hand and a tooth for a tooth. The left side of the scale must equal the right side. The scale (meezan) is the symbol of justice as we know. This is why.
The Quran reminds us that we must balance the meezan with qist, equity.
- 9 And observe the weight with equity and do not make the balance deficient
In another part the Quran uses the term men for men, women for women and slave for slave. This is the same as tooth for tooth and soul for a soul. Orages for oranges and apples for apples. Like the American saying goes "do not mix apples with oranges". Another words don't make an unequal comparison. Comparisons should be based on qist.
Peace Bigmo,
Sorry I didn't see your previous message. So if someone murders someone else then God allows us to kill that person?
A life for a life and an eye for an eye.. how about if someone hit you, does that then encourage you to hit them back? Is it better for us not to forgive? Or is that too "gentle"...
Peace
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Yes, I see what you are saying, If such a situation arises that a person is violent but mentally ill, then they
should be secluded from society to protect everyone from that person.The blind is not to be blamed, the crippled is not to be blamed, nor the handicapped is to be blamed, just as you are not to be blamed for eating at your homes, or the homes of your fathers, or the homes of your mothers, or the homes of your brothers, or the homes of your sisters, or the homes of your fathers' brothers, or the homes of your fathers' sisters, or the homes of your mothers' brothers, or the homes of your mothers' sisters, or the homes that belong to you and you possess their keys, or the homes of your friends. You commit nothing wrong by eating together or as individuals. When you enter any home, you shall greet each other a greeting from GOD that is blessed and good. GOD thus explains the revelations for you, that you may understand.
May God guide us along the path
Peace
Peace hawkninetynine,
So looking at thay verse you quoted, does that then exonerate a mentally ill person from 533?
Peace
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Salam
From Qurancorpus word for word
53210)
qatala
kills V ? 3rd person masculine singular perfect verb(53211)
nafsan
a soul N ? accusative feminine singular indefinite noun(53212)
bighayri
other than P ? prefixed preposition bi
N ? genitive masculine noun(53213)
nafsin
(for) a soul N ? genitive feminine singular indefinite nounthe word 'kill' isn't here, but the message is clear the eye for the eye and the soul for the soul.
Salam peacePeace mirjamnur,
A similar question goes to you that I gave Bigmo. We are allowed to proclaim capital punishment? What if we forgive them for murdering, or lock them up for life?
Peace peace
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Peace mmkhan,
So by your understanding there is no punishment for killing in this world that should be done by us?
peace
Peace sushi,
I think I was discussing on "killing those who seek corruption", my answer at this time is yes, we cannot kill them for corruption. I might be wrong, may Allah forgive and correct me if I am wrong.
But punishment for killing someone is killing done by us is correct.
May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us to His only path pr
mmKhan -
Peace Bigmo,
Sorry I didn't see your previous message. So if someone murders someone else then God allows us to kill that person?
A life for a life and an eye for an eye.. how about if someone hit you, does that then encourage you to hit them back? Is it better for us not to forgive? Or is that too "gentle"...
Peace
The Quran never said that if someone harms you than you have to harm him. It simply said that if you ever decide to retalitate than you must do so with equal retribution and not disproportionate justice. Quran does encourage forgiveness.
We ordained therein for them "Life for life, eye for eye, nose or nose, ear for ear, tooth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal." But if any one remits the retaliation by way of charity, it is an act of atonement for himself. And if any fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (No better than) wrong-doers. 5.45
The Quran says if someone greets you than do so in equal way or better. If someone harm you than you have the right of equal retribution but forgiveness is a form of charity. Another words its better. There are manyu such examples in the Quran.
However the verses we are talking about in this thread is about intentional murder. The Quran does not say to let that person off the hook. It says you can exile him or her from the community as a lesser form of punishment as many nations today do.
The important part here is the higher ceiling. Capital punishment can only be adminstered when we are dealing with intentional murder wothout proper cause. But we don't have to do so. A punishment of lesser degree is allowed.
For manslaughter (unintentional killing) the Quran stipulated financial compensation of some sort but allowed letting off the hook as charity and even encouraged that since the person did not intend on that.
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Peace hawkninetynine,
So looking at thay verse you quoted, does that then exonerate a mentally ill person from 533?
PeaceThe just retribution for those who fight GOD and His messenger, and commit horrendous crimes, is to be killed, or crucified, or to have their hands and feet cut off on alternate sides, or to be banished from the land. This is to humiliate them in this life, then they suffer a far worse retribution in the Hereafter.
Exempted are those who repent before you overcome them. You should know that GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.
War crimes are punishable according to the severity of the perpetrators commision of the crimes against
humanity from execution to incarceration to banishment. One would not be generally excused or even diagnosed
as mentally ill in the case of war crimes. Take note of adolph hitler, saddam hussein, Slobodan Milo?evi, were
they mentally ill? They could not prove mental illness or were not allowed to. Those who commit horrendous
crimes also fall into this category, they too face severe sentences unless they desist, repent, turn themselves
over to the authorities thereby they can initiate a request for a lighter sentence.Peace
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The Quran never said that if someone harms you than you have to harm him. It simply said that if you ever decide to retalitate than you must do so with equal retribution and not disproportionate justice. Quran does encourage forgiveness.
We ordained therein for them "Life for life, eye for eye, nose or nose, ear for ear, tooth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal." But if any one remits the retaliation by way of charity, it is an act of atonement for himself. And if any fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (No better than) wrong-doers. 5.45
The Quran says if someone greets you than do so in equal way or better. If someone harm you than you have the right of equal retribution but forgiveness is a form of charity. Another words its better. There are manyu such examples in the Quran.
However the verses we are talking about in this thread is about intentional murder. The Quran does not say to let that person off the hook. It says you can exile him or her from the community as a lesser form of punishment as many nations today do.
The important part here is the higher ceiling. Capital punishment can only be adminstered when we are dealing with intentional murder wothout proper cause. But we don't have to do so. A punishment of lesser degree is allowed.
For manslaughter (unintentional killing) the Quran stipulated financial compensation of some sort but allowed letting off the hook as charity and even encouraged that since the person did not intend on that.
Peace Bigmo,
I understand now. This does seem reasonable to me and atonement if we forgive seems to be encouraged, since there is a verse that says killing someone is like killing the whole of mankind, so regardless the option of killing is always a cautious one.
Peace peace
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Salam mmkhan
Peace sushi,
I think I was discussing on "killing those who seek corruption", my answer at this time is yes, we cannot kill them for corruption. I might be wrong, may Allah forgive and correct me if I am wrong.
But punishment for killing someone is killing done by us is correct.
May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us to His only path pr
mmKhan
how you are defining corruption?? i think the Quran speaks from 'fassad' - what Pharao he does. Pharao kills many people. hmm
Peace mirjamnur,
A similar question goes to you that I gave Bigmo. We are allowed to proclaim capital punishment? What if we forgive them for murdering, or lock them up for life?
Peace peace
Salam Sushi
Bigmo gave allready the AnswerThe Quran never said that if someone harms you than you have to harm him. It simply said that if you ever decide to retalitate than you must do so with equal retribution and not disproportionate justice. Quran does encourage forgiveness.
Thank you and peace
Also for your first question i think Bigmo answered in a good and clear wayThe Quran never said that if someone harms you than you have to harm him. It simply said that if you ever decide to retalitate than you must do so with equal retribution and not disproportionate justice. Quran does encourage forgiveness.
We ordained therein for them "Life for life, eye for eye, nose or nose, ear for ear, tooth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal." But if any one remits the retaliation by way of charity, it is an act of atonement for himself. And if any fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (No better than) wrong-doers. 5.45
The Quran says if someone greets you than do so in equal way or better. If someone harm you than you have the right of equal retribution but forgiveness is a form of charity. Another words its better. There are manyu such examples in the Quran.
However the verses we are talking about in this thread is about intentional murder. The Quran does not say to let that person off the hook. It says you can exile him or her from the community as a lesser form of punishment as many nations today do.
The important part here is the higher ceiling. Capital punishment can only be adminstered when we are dealing with intentional murder wothout proper cause. But we don't have to do so. A punishment of lesser degree is allowed.
For manslaughter (unintentional killing) the Quran stipulated financial compensation of some sort but allowed letting off the hook as charity and even encouraged that since the person did not intend on that.
peace
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Salam mmkhanhow you are defining corruption?? i think the Quran speaks from 'fassad' - what Pharao he does. Pharao kills many people. hmm
Salaam mirjamnur,
Can you please get me those aayaat.
As per 230 doing fasaad is different then spreading blood. Please take a look.
May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us to His only path pr
mmKhan -
We ordained therein for them "Life for life, eye for eye, nose or nose, ear for ear, tooth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal." But if any one remits the retaliation by way of charity, it is an act of atonement for himself. And if any fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (No better than) wrong-doers. 5.45
Salaam,
This is not for us but for them i.e., Haadu . Feeha means therein in 545 is referring to alTawraat as per 544.
Besides this...
4134
4134 And not equal are the good deed and the bad. Repel by that which is better; and thereupon the one whom between you and him is enmity as though he was a devoted friend.4135
4135 But none is granted it except those who are patient, and none is granted it except one having a great portion.4136
4136 And if there comes to you from Satan an evil suggestion, then seek refuge in Allah. Indeed, He is the Hearing, the Knowing.
4148
4148 Allah does not like the public mention of evil except by one who has been wronged. And ever is Allah Hearing and Knowing.4149
4149 If you show good or conceal it or pardon an offense - indeed, Allah is ever Pardoning and Competent.May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us to His only path pr
mmKhan -
Salam mmkhanhow you are defining corruption?? i think the Quran speaks from 'fassad' - what Pharao he does. Pharao kills many people. hmm
Salam Sushi
Bigmo gave allready the Answer Thank you and peace
Also for your first question i think Bigmo answered in a good and clear waypeacePeace mirjamnur,
Sorry I saw bigmos post late as I was typing a reply on my phone.
I initially got my question from reading a thread between aryan warrior and abdul hadi.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604740.msg315473#msg315473
If you quickly look at the firdt page or so you can see my view on what seeking corruption is based closely on how abdul hadi puts it. By looking at a few other verses (which I would quote but it's difficult doing it via phone), we know that killing a life is like as bad as killing the whole of mankind. Which is why I was thinking that capital punishment might still be frowned upon if there are lesser detrimental punishments that could be given, like locking them up for life,but nnone the less, capital punishment is still available for people previously mentioned such as adolf hitler.
Peace peace
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Salaam,
This is not for us but for them i.e., Haadu . Feeha means therein in 545 is referring to alTawraat as per 544.
Besides this...
4134
4134 And not equal are the good deed and the bad. Repel by that which is better; and thereupon the one whom between you and him is enmity as though he was a devoted friend.4135
4135 But none is granted it except those who are patient, and none is granted it except one having a great portion.4136
4136 And if there comes to you from Satan an evil suggestion, then seek refuge in Allah. Indeed, He is the Hearing, the Knowing.
4148
4148 Allah does not like the public mention of evil except by one who has been wronged. And ever is Allah Hearing and Knowing.4149
4149 If you show good or conceal it or pardon an offense - indeed, Allah is ever Pardoning and Competent.May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us to His only path pr
mmKhanPeace mmkhan,
I like the verses you posted as it shows should always go for a better option. Also, if verse 545 is for them then what about "us"? hmm
Peace peace
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Peace mmkhan,
I like the verses you posted as it shows should always go for a better option. Also, if verse 545 is for them then what about "us"? hmm
Peace peace
There is no for them and for us. Thats Sunni talk. The Quran simply reminded the Israelites of how God sees justice. The same as
O you who believe! retaliation is prescribed for you in the matter of the slain; the free for the free, and the slave for the slave, and the female for the female; but if any remission is made to any one by his (aggrieved) brother, then (the demand for the bloodwit) should be made according to usage, and payment should be made to him in a good man?ner; this is an alleviation from your Lord and a mercy; so whoever exceeds the limit after this, he shall have a painful chastisement . And there is life for you in the retali?ation, O men of understanding, that you may guard your-selves (against evil) .
23.177 - 178This is how the Quran undersand justice for anything. However exception can be made but over all its about the punishment should fit the crime and not deterence (Islam) or disproportionate (Judaism).
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laugh
There is no for them and for us. Thats Sunni talk. The Quran simply reminded the Israelites of how God sees justice. The same as
O you who believe! retaliation is prescribed for you in the matter of the slain; the free for the free, and the slave for the slave, and the female for the female; but if any remission is made to any one by his (aggrieved) brother, then (the demand for the bloodwit) should be made according to usage, and payment should be made to him in a good man?ner; this is an alleviation from your Lord and a mercy; so whoever exceeds the limit after this, he shall have a painful chastisement . And there is life for you in the retali?ation, O men of understanding, that you may guard your-selves (against evil) .
23.177 - 178This is how the Quran undersand justice for anything. However exception can be made but over all its about the punishment should fit the crime and not deterence (Islam) or disproportionate (Judaism).
Just to let you know I wasn't under any impression that there should be a difference between us and them, I was clarifying what mmkhan was trying to say. Also I was never brought up as a sunni, so I would kindly ask you to refrain from making such reference to me, I merely asking for clarity in his views. Your contribution is most helpful and I'm fully in conjunction with what the quran says. Im assuming when you say islam does deterence it is not the true islam which is peacefulness that we are talking about....
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Salaam mirjamnur,
Can you please get me those aayaat.
As per 230 doing fasaad is different then spreading blood. Please take a look.
May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us to His only path pr
mmKhanSalam mmkhan
Fassad fil ard
On that account We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our messengers with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land.This verse follows verses 26-31 which refer to the incident in which Qabil (Cain), son of Adam, killed his brother Habil (Abel).
This Quranic term has been utilised for serious evildoers such as the likes of Pharaoh who transgressed all bounds (8911-12) by slaughtering children
(7.141), oppressing people
(284), by heaping on and multiplying iniquities causing outright corruption in the land.
Other communities such as the Thamud or the people of Aad (891-9) have been similarly described as those who seriously transgressed.
In chapter 18, (Al-Kahf) of the Qur'an, verse 94, The people of Gog and Magog make "mischief in the land" (mufsiduna fi al-ard)
They said, "O Zul-Qarnain, Gog and Magog make mischief in the land. Can we pay you to create a barrier between us and them?"
it is said do not cause "corruption in the land" (tufsiduuna fi al-ard)
When it is said to them, "do not cause mischief in the land"...Those who cause mischief in the land (yufsiduna fi al-ard)are counted as "the losers"
Those who break the covenant of Allah after ratifying it, and sever that which Allah ordered to be joined, and (who) make mischief in the earth Those are they who are the losersAll these transgressors were utterly destroyed (8913).
089.010-12
?And with Pharaoh, lord of the ?Awtad?. (All) these transgressed beyond bounds in the lands, And heaped in it mischief002205 A type of man that causes corruption by destroying crops and cattle
007085 People of Prophet Shoaib (in Midian) that created mischief in the land and were warned by the messenger (and later utterly destroyed)
peace )