Where did "wudu" come from??
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Sorry waqas who ever wrote this against Dr Zammans research hasn't realy understand the points Dr Zamman was making - and you didn't check the counter argument did you? hypno
Lets have a look at the first point only to rubbish the whole counter product.
All Dr Zamman was saying (mind i don't have any contact to the man) - according to his explanation (and i bet you will agree) , is that saying "qul" in namaz when reciting the ayah's as part of the namaz doesn'at make sense - who would you be saying "qul-Say" to when reading the quranic ayah's as part of the namaz? so he was just rediculling the concept of reciting the ayah's with the "qul" in namaz.
The persons going against Dr zamman seemingly doesn't seem to realise what Dr Zamman is implying - rediculous.
So the counter argument doesn't hold much weight at all.
peace
I wrote the critique.
Firstly, what you said is different to what QZ said, or rather, the reasoning/evidence QZ gives. If he meant what you said, then we should both agree that his conveying of this is rather poor. Granted, I believe the English is a translation of what he wrote, but still, poorly worded nonetheless.
And lastly, I find this statement of yours very telling "Lets have a look at the first point only to rubbish the whole counter product."
Your statement is illogical. Even if we assume the first point was a non-point, for sake of argument, that in no way renders the rest "rubbish".
I have noticed something about those who consider QZ's views credible, and that is they frequently make illogical arguments/statements.
Feel free to refute the rest of that critique ;D
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Well the second point in the counter argument;
"P70?5
Th point?claims ?came one of you from...? (i.e. from singular to plural) is a significant point but seemingly fails to consider that it may have been phrased this way to emphasise that going to the toilet (assuming we translate ?al ghaiti? as ?the toilet?) is a personal/individual/private act, not aplural activity (which may well have been relatively common in those days) etc.States
?
?
Therefore, to emphatically say that, if one of you may return from lavatory, then you all may perform tayammam, definitely requires deliberation. At this point, certainly due to an act by one of the community members, the whole community is obliged to undertake some corrective
measure.?but conveniently neglects to mention that immediately after the singular ?al ghaiti? reference it
becomes plural, e.g. ?or you (plural) have touched the women? or ?and you (plural) could not find water?.It is a fact according to how i understand the ayah (do you understand it any different?) the ayah is talking to people in general and then simply says if one does such a thing then you must (all) do tayamum.
So the argument no way tarnsishes waht Dr Zamman has said.
The rest of the counter argument can be no different.............it is some one who does believe in namaz ( i think) and just trying to save the day with baseless arguments.
I think i will see Dr Zamman on my visit to Pakistan if i can - Great work he has done.
peace
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Peace all,
here is a well know book about the Origine of rituals in Islam by Gerald Hawting
for wudhu please check chapter 5
http//books.google.co.uk/books?id=oCvf76uT3wMC&pg=PA3&dq=eugen+mittwoch%2Brite+musulman&source=gbs_toc_s&cad=1&sig=scEmeMyvQJo0cOgUAPQcA42js30#v=onepage&q&f=falsepeace
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SAlaam to all
Thanks for link, jewish manipulations and old pagan myts of arabia (including hindu heritage like caaba sanscript writings that they dont show almost no one, the hair cutting as sacrament, and stone worshiping and circumbulating) and persia is the foundation of hadith full of herry potter and lord of rings magic,rituals and ego salvation.
i just wonder how meka and medina never get nothing in cience or knowledge compered to bagad or alandalus for exemple. yes i know.. they reduced ILM into colections of hadith and rituals, instead of getting knowledge from Quran and the Creation of The Creator and fully apply it.
anyway keep on searching and keep saying.how can we reduce Qurn rules almost to 1 surat full of rituals? strange.. doont make much sense to have holy monuments and holy rituals and holy holywood, holy prophet,holy month,holy food, its to saparete what Creator intended to be united..
So as jews and cristian alweyes said they were the favorites, now the Mohamedians do the same, everyone just forget that we follow the craddle of Ibrahim, hanif, never associate partnership with the One , be kind gentel and focus on objectives and actions with sincerety to full apply divine laws/comandments.. and not rituals, because 5 salat a day and rituals are not making muslim world better..peace handshake
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In the name of God, the most Gracious, the most Merciful
Peace NOMAD,
I agree, we must follow the monotheism religion which started with Abraham.
Believe in God alone and His system, the Hereafter and be good people.
Refrain from idol worship and serve Him alone. Many things can be idol worship, including your own ego.
What is being good people? Well the Quran certainly comes with good examples, but even without it we must just use our brains.
Unselfish, charitable, humble, patient, steadfast, those are among the traits making a righteous person.
To wash yourself and take off your shoes before contacting the most High, is not that more than right and a show of respect.
Postures of prayer everybody knows, even knowledgeable Christians and Jews. The people mentioned in the Bible prostrated, you can verify it yourselves.
Prostrating, like most of us Muslims do, may feel like the Stone age, but are we too proud to humiliate ourselves in front of the Creator?
May God guide us
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but are we too proud to humiliate ourselves in front of the Creator?
So when we bow, is He realy there in front of us? And i thought he was to the right and left , above and below, in front and back of us - and in our hearts also. How do you people stand facing him?
I think we all face Him when we do right , but turn away when we do wrong.........
peace
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In the name of God, most Gracious, most Merciful
Peace,
God is of course present everywhere, but to avoid confusion the congregation was told to face in a certain direction.
Of course God hears you even if you face in a completely different direction, but you would not follow the guide.
If you believe in the infallibility of the Quran, then you know contact prayers are performed by physical prostration.
Remember all you do is part of a big test, all religious practices, your life, moral character and absolutely everything. This life is just a temporary illusion, no reason to get an excessive love for its vanities. Better just be good, and receive your true reward later.
I usually see this world as an unusually real video game, a simulation, way more realistic than the best games available. God set the game world and its rules at creation, and that is why this world feels like it has limitations as God created limitations. God created death and any other feature of the game.
This gives a feeling of the Matrix, does it not?
May God convince you
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SAlaam
thanks 357 good and simple definition. i totaly agree
ok lets see if i spend the same time you spend prostrated fedding the poor or helping neeedy, wich action is more benfical for humanity? my prostration who only will feed my ego and think that im speacil or to use the same time to do good deeds? whats the good in a prostration(physical) am i not awere of Creator if i dont postrate? ..to where this prostration? meka? east?west? ive see milions prostrating ..but no kindness no respect no tolerance.. sujud and ruku are other stuff than physical bow and prostration.. prayer doesnt prevent haram as many say..but discipline training and meditation yes.SAlaam/peace/paz
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In the name of God, the most Gracious, the most Merciful
Peace,
Only observing the prayers is not enough for salvation, it is easy to understand through reading the Quran. Praying does not make you a good person on its own, especially not if you do like millions of Muslims in the world do, mention Muhammad or any other name while you pray.
The Quran says very clearly that charity and other righteous deeds are a must to be admitted into God's paradise.
Stop abrogate the words of God in your distaste of traditional Islam. Everything the traditional Muslims do is not wrong, it would be arrogant to say so.
Wudhu is clearly described in the Quran (56) to be performed before approaching the prayers.
If you say we are not supposed to prostrate physically, I can be so frank as to say you do not believe the Quran. And then I did not intend to offend you. The Quran explicitly talks about praying in the thousands of year old prostration ritual.
May God offer you guidance lest you go astray
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Salaam
PEace bro peace
where word whudu in quran? ok..no water clean to soil? makes sense to you? if you go to force of nature and no water? you think if pass sand in you you get cleaner??? try it yourself..pleaseand traditional islam is not all wrong.. but majority yes..
now that one that if i dont postrate in ground i dont bealive in Quran thats amazing -X .. do you know the ayat when Musa enter city prostrated? do you think he entered the city with head on the ground? amazing.. -X
No ment to be ofensive anyway and realy apreciate youre post..SAlaam peace
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Peace,
No offense taken.
Just in case of Moses it was in a submissive respect-showing way he entered, not literally head on the ground.
As for dry ablution, I have never tried it so I am not sure. There has to be a meaning for the statement anyhow, otherwise the scripture is not infallible.
Wudhu is the washing before prayers, stated in 56. Its steps are clearly explained.
Read about praying in case of war, it cannot be just some "mind prostrations". Be reasonable please.
Do you want to make fun of millions and millions of submitters who have been prostrating for thousands of years?
Have you ever read the Quran from cover to cover and meditated upon it?
Be careful so you do not walk astray. Listen, I say this because I care, not out of arrogance.
God bless you
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SAlaam
ok by youre translation Quran say if no water you just need to purify arms and face in a stone/sand watever..and why not the feet?
..maybe i read Quran from cover to cover more times than you but anyaway thats no the point..many recite allQuran and still dont even know what they are parroting..thats why i dont fall the traps youre falling.. can you please explain this sujud acording to Quran?position? jewish prostration is full body in horizontal..teel me where you can find head on ground in AlQuran?? and please put word whuduu for me in atabic to read please . NOW ok sheck same verse of war and youll find contradiction they Salat with kafir and then let go? or let go if they aqimo sallawat and atuu zakat---get in acordance(sujud) to divine laws and to sustain it? thats more logical to be a pact and contract for peace than to make pray only and let go, ..To short SAlat while traveling is that if you find yourself in hard situation to implent Allah divine laws on its full content the same way you can aplly while in your confort zone and rutine... ..anyway milions in world say jesus is Isa and i dont bealive and other milion say he died in a cross and was son of God and i dont bealive. do you bealive?but in shaa Allah soon ill bring you the verses for you..
Thanks for reply..i was imagine Musa enter the city with head in ground with no ofense ,
Barak Allahu feek
As-Salamu Aleykum -
Peace,
Trust me, I do not read the Quran just for reading and acting like a parrot. I can sit or lie down for hours thinking about what I have read. Please you insult me.
Physical prostration is advocated by the Quran, we just have to face it. It is OK if you prostrate like a Jew, as long as you do it. Just remember the postures standing, bowing and prostrating. Read sura 1 in English, it is just fine or glorify him with you own written poem. Give God compliments. Remember Him all day long.
I think you confuse me with the mainstream Muslims in the world.
Remember the majority of those who believe do not do so without committing idol worship and most people are destined for Hell.
May God forgive our sins
God bless you
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Peace,
I usually see this world as an unusually real video game, a simulation, way more realistic than the best games available. God set the game world and its rules at creation, and that is why this world feels like it has limitations as God created limitations. God created death and any other feature of the game.
This gives a feeling of the Matrix, does it not?
May God convince you
Salaam Man of Faith,
I understand what you mean. Just want you to know that it's not a game.
2116 And We did not create the heavens and the earth and what is between them for entertainment.
2117 If We wanted to be amused, We could have done so from what is already with Us, if that is what We wished to do.
2118 No, We cast with the truth upon the falsehood, so it disrupts it, and then it retreats. And woe to you for what you have described.
2119 And to Him is whoever is in the heavens and on the earth. And those who are near Him are not too proud to serve Him, nor do they complain.Salaam,
Bender -
Peace Bender,
The game thing was an allegory. Of course I know what you mean.
Can you not draw a parallel between this life and a game?
It is dead serious this life, and you have only one chance. A difficult game aye?
Sometimes the game allegory makes it easier for me to cope with life.
Hope you understood.
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Peace Bender,
The game thing was an allegory. Of course I know what you mean.
Can you not draw a parallel between this life and a game?
It is dead serious this life, and you have only one chance. A difficult game aye?
Sometimes the game allegory makes it easier for me to cope with life.
Hope you understood.
Salaam,
RED That's why I said that I understood what you meant with it
Yes we can see it as some sort of game to make it easier to understand but Allah warns us that it's not a game, but dead serious. -
Peace Bender,
It is no game for entertainment. As far as I know a game does not have to necessarily mean an amusement game.
Anyway, it was in terms of showing allegorically that God has given us the game rules and a game world to use our character in the best possible way to redeem ourselves.
Game features is what he created for this world, like death, birth, hunger, pain, reproduction, pleasure sensation etc. If He had wanted we could live without dieing, thus it is a rule of this game.
Without talking in an allegorical way we can say; this is not a game, this is for real.
Sorry now the topic has derailed. See how it can go.
May God lead us on a straight path
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Peace Bender,
It is no game for entertainment. As far as I know a game does not have to necessarily mean an amusement game.
Anyway, it was in terms of showing allegorically that God has given us the game rules and a game world to use our character in the best possible way to redeem ourselves.
Game features is what he created for this world, like death, birth, hunger, pain, reproduction, pleasure sensation etc. If He had wanted we could live without dieing, thus it is a rule of this game.
Without talking in an allegorical way we can say; this is not a game, this is for real.
Sorry now the topic has derailed. See how it can go.
May God lead us on a straight path
Salaam,
yes it was off topic I am very good in going off topic
Anyway, the game subject could be a nice topic though -
Life is like a card game. God is the dealer, he deals everyone a hand, how you play is up to you.
God is the cosmic card dealer, he is the house, he makes the rules, on can pout, cry foul, hate it,
fall on the floor kicking and screaming like a three year old, ask why, philosophize, but the point
of religion/path/way/deen is guidance and that God is All-Powerful and answers to no one.You cannot ask this dealer what he is doing or why or how he is dealing.
Have they found gods on earth who can create?
If there were in them (the heavens and the earth) other gods beside GOD, there would have been chaos. Glory be to GOD; the Lord with absolute authority. He is high above their claims.
He is never to be asked about anything He does, while all others are questioned. -
Peace hawkninetynine,
Thanks for a nice allegory. I got interested in creating a new thread with this allegorical view as a topic.
Time in the game is elapsing.
May God appreciate our jokes
