Is Black Magic, Demons etc Real???
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Peace to all Bros and Sis,
Al Quran 451 "Did you not see those who were given a portion of the book, they trust superstition and aggression, and they say of the ingrates, Those are better guided than these who acknowledged the path."
All I wanted to ask is if we can use this verse of Al-Quran to "negate the obviously impossible existence of the 'superstitions' like Demonic Possessions, Black Magic, Witchcraft voodoo which have effect on people without a "visual cause".......????"
I believe that the most practical book in the hands of mankind "Al-Quran" has this verse as a strong proof that "even though people have received their revelations, they continue to believe in societal and traditional superstitions which are not even approved by reason"
I wanted to know your views on these ideas......
May the Lord guide us All..... pr pr pr
Peace
Harun -
Salaam. Good question! I was under the impression that some people were taught this l-si'ra/magic 2 102-103, to cause separation between a husband and wife. But this l-si'ra/magic really cannot do any harm to anyone. So what is it? peace
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Jinn are very much real and it's not all that difficult to communicate with them. But if you don't know much about the dark arts, it's better for you to keep it that way. It's a pathway to hell. We know about jinn because Quran talks about it. But black magic is practiced all over the world in different forms and is not restricted to any one religion or culture. I was forced into that world once and thank God, got out completely. Trust me brothers and sisters, stay away from black magic and jinn. They will take you away from Allah and straight to hell before you realize what hit you. God bless!
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Jinn are very much real and it's not all that difficult to communicate with them. But if you don't know much about the dark arts, it's better for you to keep it that way. It's a pathway to hell. We know about jinn because Quran talks about it. But black magic is practiced all over the world in different forms and is not restricted to any one religion or culture. I was forced into that world once and thank God, got out completely. Trust me brothers and sisters, stay away from black magic and jinn. They will take you away from Allah and straight to hell before you realize what hit you. God bless!
Peace Aamer
You are being superstitious when you say there is an evidence of dark or black magic.....have you seen with your own eyes.....then it is an illusion.....if you havent.....then it is a rumour kind os thing ....... believe the quran...shun all superstitions.........I am not saying a man cannt tuen a rope into a snake as with the Moses story..........but that is shear illusion......trick employed by magicians like david blane.......but voodoo......yuck that is all nonsense......
Hope you get the point....
May Lord guide us to the straight and rational path
Peace
Harun -
Brother, I could sit down with you and a Ouija board or any other writing device and without you touching anything, have answers spelled out which no one but you could have knowledge of. It us very easy to summon jinn and it is very easy for them to get information about your past (not so much future). I could do this with you and you would see how "psychics" work, but I don't do that anymore. And yes, the powerful ones have abilities to move objects and cause minute disturbances. I have seen this with my own eyes. It really isn't important to our salvation. But If you believe it doesn't exist though, perhaps you don't believe Quran? What do you think Surah Falaq and Surah Nas are for? God wasn't telling jokes. It exists and there are ways to counter it. Jinn are creatures on earth with free will just like us. Peace!
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Shalom Aleikhem,
Brother, I could sit down with you and a Ouija board or any other writing device and without you touching anything, have answers spelled out which no one but you could have knowledge of. It us very easy to summon jinn and it is very easy for them to get information about your past (not so much future). I could do this with you and you would see how "psychics" work, but I don't do that anymore. And yes, the powerful ones have abilities to move objects and cause minute disturbances. I have seen this with my own eyes. It really isn't important to our salvation.
Here is a million dollar for you http//www.randi.org/site/index.php/1m-challenge.html
If you can demonstrate your claim, they will happily give you a million dollars. ) Best of luck.
But If you believe it doesn't exist though, perhaps you don't believe Quran? What do you think Surah Falaq and Surah Nas are for? God wasn't telling jokes. It exists and there are ways to counter it. Jinn are creatures on earth with free will just like us. Peace!
Thats an argument from ignorance, even if no one in the universe could possibly tell you what Surah Nas & Falaq are there for, it does not automatically validate your claim.
Let me end my post with an example of a similar logical falacy
"The Qur'an talks about the existence of a God, and He can do what he wants to do, if you believe in that, you will have to believe that my claim that God plays Call of duty on PS3 with me is true. "
Don't get me wrong, here are the verses that you are using as your premise
1131 Say "I seek refuge with the Lord of the dawn,"
1132 "From the evil among His creation,"
1133 "And from the evil of murkiness as it falls,"
1134 "And from the evil of those who blow on knots,"
1135 "And from the evil of an envier when he envies."1141 Say I seek refuge with the Lord of the people,
1142 The King of the people,
1143 The god of the people,
1144 From the evil of the sneaking whisperer,
1145 Who whispers into the chests of the people.
1146 From the Jinn and the people.I don't really see what is in the above collection of verses that proves your claim. Your assertion implies at least the following Jinns assist people the way you mentioned, Jinns have access to hidden information, not to mention that one could "summon" jinn, on top of that its you who can do it. Please, feel free to demonstrate the link between these verses and your assertions.
Peace
------------------- Student of Allah -
Student of Allah, I don't think you are correct in your reasoning. Aamer is not making an argument from ignorance. And he's not 100% relying on the Quran. He's just using the Quran to establish that the jinn exist in the first place. The other stuff he talks about is based on personal experience. You can accept his personal experience or reject it. Maybe he's experienced what he's talking about or maybe he's making up stories for attention. It's silly to talk about "proof" regarding his honesty- there is no logical fallacy in believing in what you have personally experienced and no way for us to prove either way whether or not that he is honest. To grasp this from the viewpoint of logic, the problem is that you are trying to tackle this with deductive reasoning whereas inductive reasoning is the only reasonable approach we can take based on the evidence. (if you haven't studied logic, to put it in a nutshell deductive reasoning states that which is certain and, in the absence of certain evidence with which deductive reasoning can be applied, inductive reasoning must be used to ascertain that which is probable)
Anyways, to give my particular perspective on this matter, I believe Aamer and I think he is telling the truth. I personally have had encounters with the jinn and so have other people who I have met. I pretty much had a scientific-reductionist materialist view of the universe before I started to have experiences with dark things. Talk to people who have played with a ouija board and see what they tell you. Plus, there's a whole gigantic sub-culture of people who are obsessed with black magic. Those people are totally misguided but they don't go all through all the effort they go to for no reason. Like Aamer said, it's not all that hard to contact the jinn. There's a lot of weird freaky stuff going on in this world that most people don't know about. Do some research on Aleister Crowley.
As for that Randi thing...... there's plenty of people who have experiences with God and angels and jinn and various things that are usually beyond the veil. Imagine if you were one of the greatest muslims in the world for 20 years- you memorized the entire Quran and established regular prayer and did everything the Quran says to do and God gave you an unshakeable iman. And then for being a good Muslim, God decided to bless you so that an angel paid a personal visit to you every Thursday when you went inside that cave right outside your village. So you come to this cave every Thursday and at the same time every Thursday this angel shows up a little while after you arrive and start to pray and then the angel tells you amazing stuff about what life is like in heaven.
Well imagine you finally got greedy one Thursday- you think "wait a minute! if I bring a video camera to the cave with me and film my encounter with the angel, I can become rich and famous!"
If you tried to bring your video camera to the cave, do you really think the angel would still show up? Why do you think it is that people usually experience these sort of entities when they are in solitude? God has designed the world so that most people do not believe in the unseen. If someone actually made a video tape of their encounter with an angel or were able to produce some other indisputable proof of the unseen and it was such incontrovertible proof that it won that million dollars from James Randi- wouldn't that disrupt the way God has designed things?
So that Randi thing is kinda silly. It's called the Unseen for a reason. It wouldn't be very Unseen if we could just put it on YouTube.
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Student of Allah, I don't think you are correct in your reasoning. Aamer is not making an argument from ignorance. And he's not 100% relying on the Quran. He's just using the Quran to establish that the jinn exist in the first place. The other stuff he talks about is based on personal experience. You can accept his personal experience or reject it. Maybe he's experienced what he's talking about or maybe he's making up stories for attention. It's silly to talk about "proof" regarding his honesty- there is no logical fallacy in believing in what you have personally experienced and no way for us to prove either way whether or not that he is honest. To grasp this from the viewpoint of logic, the problem is that you are trying to tackle this with deductive reasoning whereas inductive reasoning is the only reasonable approach we can take based on the evidence. (if you haven't studied logic, to put it in a nutshell deductive reasoning states that which is certain and, in the absence of certain evidence with which deductive reasoning can be applied, inductive reasoning must be used to ascertain that which is probable)
Anyways, to give my particular perspective on this matter, I believe Aamer and I think he is telling the truth. I personally have had encounters with the jinn and so have other people who I have met. I pretty much had a scientific-reductionist materialist view of the universe before I started to have experiences with dark things. Talk to people who have played with a ouija board and see what they tell you. Plus, there's a whole gigantic sub-culture of people who are obsessed with black magic. Those people are totally misguided but they don't go all through all the effort they go to for no reason. Like Aamer said, it's not all that hard to contact the jinn. There's a lot of weird freaky stuff going on in this world that most people don't know about. Do some research on Aleister Crowley.
As for that Randi thing...... there's plenty of people who have experiences with God and angels and jinn and various things that are usually beyond the veil. Imagine if you were one of the greatest muslims in the world for 20 years- you memorized the entire Quran and established regular prayer and did everything the Quran says to do and God gave you an unshakeable iman. And then for being a good Muslim, God decided to bless you so that an angel paid a personal visit to you every Thursday when you went inside that cave right outside your village. So you come to this cave every Thursday and at the same time every Thursday this angel shows up a little while after you arrive and start to pray and then the angel tells you amazing stuff about what life is like in heaven.
Well imagine you finally got greedy one Thursday- you think "wait a minute! if I bring a video camera to the cave with me and film my encounter with the angel, I can become rich and famous!"
If you tried to bring your video camera to the cave, do you really think the angel would still show up? Why do you think it is that people usually experience these sort of entities when they are in solitude? God has designed the world so that most people do not believe in the unseen. If someone actually made a video tape of their encounter with an angel or were able to produce some other indisputable proof of the unseen and it was such incontrovertible proof that it won that million dollars from James Randi- wouldn't that disrupt the way God has designed things?
So that Randi thing is kinda silly. It's called the Unseen for a reason. It wouldn't be very Unseen if we could just put it on YouTube.
Peace,
I enjoyed reading this post. If we classify the ways of looking into this, there is an approach which emphasises 'scientific' endeavours, to the exclusion of all others - apparently some of these are the 'rationalists' as well. there could be an approach which emphasises what some may call 'superstition' and then a position between the too which is neither too engrossed in our current way of thinking that the whole world can be explained with mathematics and so on and refers to the unseen.
Surah Falaq appears to refer to the witches ladder, and those who use such practices for evil intents. Although whatever we consider magic and the unseen to be I wouldn't say the Quran would ever encourage us to divulge in it because its unseen and difficult to grasp what it entirely is. The witches ladder is still used today by some witches, although they use it for healing and similar things - they have a law called Harm None. So this suggests that the witches ladder was at least used as a practice even back then, if that is what Surah Falaq is referring to, which I find interesting itself, because these grimoires and other occult things say that ancient practices are contained in them - I don't know the extent to which that is all true, quite a bit could be modern as well. The Unseen is very much part of our lives, whether in terms of science and exploring unseen things there, in terms of belief in our Creator, or in terms of things that cannot be found under modern scientific methodologies. I personally prefer to remain more open minded about such things and I completely agree with what you have to say about personal experience.
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Shalom Aleikhem NotSure,
Student of Allah, I don't think you are correct in your reasoning. Aamer is not making an argument from ignorance. And he's not 100% relying on the Quran. He's just using the Quran to establish that the jinn exist in the first place. The other stuff he talks about is based on personal experience. You can accept his personal experience or reject it. Maybe he's experienced what he's talking about or maybe he's making up stories for attention. It's silly to talk about "proof" regarding his honesty- there is no logical fallacy in believing in what you have personally experienced and no way for us to prove either way whether or not that he is honest. To grasp this from the viewpoint of logic, the problem is that you are trying to tackle this with deductive reasoning whereas inductive reasoning is the only reasonable approach we can take based on the evidence. (if you haven't studied logic, to put it in a nutshell deductive reasoning states that which is certain and, in the absence of certain evidence with which deductive reasoning can be applied, inductive reasoning must be used to ascertain that which is probable)
RED PART I am sorry but you are demonstrably wrong in saying that. He did use that as an argument from his ignorance. Let me quote him again
.... But If you believe it doesn't exist though, perhaps you don't believe Quran? What do you think Surah Falaq and Surah Nas are for? God wasn't telling jokes. It exists and there are ways to counter it. Jinn are creatures on earth with free will just like us. Peace!
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I agree that Aamer stated that if I don't believe in Jinns then may be I don't believe in the Qur'an too. (From his first sentence in the above quote)
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The rest of the quote demonstrates clearly how he based his evidence for his claim on an argument from ignorance. It is reasonable to assume that this part he wrote assuming that the reader first agrees at least that the Qur'an is true, otherwise there is no point in asking them to learn anything from 2 chapters of an old book. He was asking there what the 2 chapters were there for. Then he stated that God wasn't joking. Then he asserted that Jinns do exist and started talking about their characteristics. That is an argument from ignorance. Just because he can not think of any reason why those 2 chapters are there, he ended up asserting unfounded things as the explanation for that. It is just like me saying " I saw a beam of light in the sky last night. Why don't you tell me what it was? Aliens do exist and they drink Pepsi". I would not be justified in using my lack of knowledge to claim knowledge there, would I? In the same way, Aamer is not justified in using that question as an indication of proof. Even if nobody in the universe could possibly tell him what Surah Nas and Fallaq are there for, this does not automatically validate his baseless assertion that they are there for validating his stories about Jinns. He still has the burden of proof on him and must still demonstrate how the verses there support whatever he was claiming.
Oh, and not to mention that he was expecting me to buy his story based on Surah Falaq and Nas which has nothing to do with the story. Look at what he wrote again
Brother, I could sit down with you and a Ouija board or any other writing device and without you touching anything, have answers spelled out which no one but you could have knowledge of. It us very easy to summon jinn and it is very easy for them to get information about your past (not so much future). I could do this with you and you would see how "psychics" work, but I don't do that anymore. And yes, the powerful ones have abilities to move objects and cause minute disturbances. I have seen this with my own eyes. It really isn't important to our salvation. But If you believe it doesn't exist though, perhaps you don't believe Quran? What do you think Surah Falaq and Surah Nas are for? God wasn't telling jokes. It exists and there are ways to counter it. Jinn are creatures on earth with free will just like us. Peace!
So he basically gave me a lot of unverifiable and unfounded things in the PURPLE part. Then he says "BUT IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE...." and uses the rest of the quote (in blue) to justify or argue for the Purple part. How did you miss that? Its like me saying " I just cooked food with Allah and then we played some board games. But if you don't believe that happened, then why do you think it says in the Qur'an that God is the doer of what he wills? Surely, if he can do whatever he wills then why can't he possibly play and cook with me". So, he clearly and evidently tried to legitimize his unverifiable assertions by pointing at Surah Falaq and Nas.
Anyways, to give my particular perspective on this matter, I believe Aamer and I think he is telling the truth. I personally have had encounters with the jinn and so have other people who I have met. I pretty much had a scientific-reductionist materialist view of the universe before I started to have experiences with dark things. Talk to people who have played with a ouija board and see what they tell you. Plus, there's a whole gigantic sub-culture of people who are obsessed with black magic. Those people are totally misguided but they don't go all through all the effort they go to for no reason. Like Aamer said, it's not all that hard to contact the jinn. There's a lot of weird freaky stuff going on in this world that most people don't know about. Do some research on Aleister Crowley.
Well, if that is the standard you follow, then know that I had coffee with the creator of this universe this morning. Then we wrestled and I won. (You couldn't possibly disprove my experience) Oh, and I won't be the only one claiming to have such personal experience with the creator of the universe. Now would you smile and think it is probably and likely? Just because its personal experience and can not be disprove and there are others who follow the same delusion? If you don't my story, please, without evidence, do not expect me to buy yours or someone else's.
As for that Randi thing...... there's plenty of people who have experiences with God and angels and jinn and various things that are usually beyond the veil. Imagine if you were one of the greatest muslims in the world for 20 years- you memorized the entire Quran and established regular prayer and did everything the Quran says to do and God gave you an unshakeable iman. And then for being a good Muslim, God decided to bless you so that an angel paid a personal visit to you every Thursday when you went inside that cave right outside your village. So you come to this cave every Thursday and at the same time every Thursday this angel shows up a little while after you arrive and start to pray and then the angel tells you amazing stuff about what life is like in heaven.
Well imagine you finally got greedy one Thursday- you think "wait a minute! if I bring a video camera to the cave with me and film my encounter with the angel, I can become rich and famous!"
If you tried to bring your video camera to the cave, do you really think the angel would still show up? Why do you think it is that people usually experience these sort of entities when they are in solitude? God has designed the world so that most people do not believe in the unseen. If someone actually made a video tape of their encounter with an angel or were able to produce some other indisputable proof of the unseen and it was such incontrovertible proof that it won that million dollars from James Randi- wouldn't that disrupt the way God has designed things?
So that Randi thing is kinda silly. It's called the Unseen for a reason. It wouldn't be very Unseen if we could just put it on YouTube.
There are people who claim to have seen and experienced Krishna, Jesus, Allah, Gabriel, Durga, Hanumaan, etc etc. I have no reason to be biased towards any of them. They all have one thing in common, that is to say that they can not demonstrate it. You asked important questions there which I highlighted in red. The funny thing is that if I asked you about crazy people who see and hear things and can not show it to us, or even liars who claim things but can't show it to us, they would tell me the same thing. For example
Miss Crazy I meet Gabriel on a regular basis. I just can't seem to record him on tape.
Miss Liar I meet Gabriel on a regular basis. I just can't seem to record him on tape.
You I meet Gabriel on a regular basis. I just can't seem to record him on tape.
Given that for a third party and an observer like me, the three of you are claiming the same thing, how do I differentiate between the three of you? Miss Crazy is sincere but wrong. She is just mad. That is why her delusions do not manifest in our reality. That is why she can not demonstrate the truth of her claim. Miss Liar is not sincere and making all of it up. That is why her lie is not demonstrable, otherwise it would have been the truth. Now you come along and do the same. I have no way of knowing if you are crazy or a liar. Why would I not be skeptical of your claims? You could be a liar like Miss Liar or wrong like Miss Crazy. You see my friend, the bottom line is, without evidence, I have no way of distinguishing you from Miss Liar and Miss Crazy. You all are the same to me. If you do not agree, I invite you to believe that I have an invisible pet dragon that does not manifest in reality. )
So that Randi thing is kinda silly. It's called the Unseen for a reason. It wouldn't be very Unseen if we could just put it on YouTube.
The same is true for my invisible pet dragon that does not manifest in reality. It is invisible and doesn't manifest in reality for a reason. It wouldn't be very invisible and non-manifesting in reality if we could just put in on Youtube.
(The point being that your claims have as much evidence and/or justification to believe in them as my made up bullsh*t !! )
Peace
------------ Student of Allah -
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Student of Allah,
I wasn't trying to win a debate using Quran only. I was just speaking of my personal experience. But honestly, I don't care if you believe in Jinn or not. And I don't really care to discuss this further. It's really not important compared to other things. I know what I've witnessed and I'm not going to gain anything by convincing you or anyone else of it. I'm no longer interested in discussing this subject. God bless. Peace! -
Shalom Aleikhem,
Student of Allah,
I wasn't trying to win a debate using Quran only. I was just speaking of my personal experience. But honestly, I don't care if you believe in Jinn or not. And I don't really care to discuss this further. It's really not important compared to other things. I know what I've witnessed and I'm not going to gain anything by convincing you or anyone else of it. I'm no longer interested in discussing this subject. God bless. Peace!I apologize if I hurt your feelings in anyway. That was not what I intended. I was merely trying to make you face reality. That is why in the dialogue between me and NotSure, I pointed out the case of Miss Liar and Miss Crazy. I don't understand how you are sure of your personal experience when you can not verify them. The human mind is extremely susceptible to hallucinations and we know for a fact that faulty brain functions make us see/taste/hear/feel things which are not real. I was just surprised to find out that you are not necessarily interested to know for a fact if your experience is a true or not. To me, the truth matters. Given that I already know the tricks my brain can play on me, I will not be so eager to believe in something like that so strongly.
In any case, feel free to believe in whatever you like.
Peace
---------------- Student of Allah