observation on 17:78...
-
Peace upon you Wakas, all
We should remember the god daily. )
Surely, reading the scripture and straightening our links (relations), be it with the god or his creation, is something to be done daily.
For 1778, the word "doolook" for the sun exist once in the scripture. In dics, it says it's rubbing, as you translation suggests. But, in my opinion, it could mean "as the sun travels accross the sky = doolook ash-ashams", I mean from its rising until the sunset, or all the day.
In 2130 and 5030, we have the rising of the sun as "tolou3 ash-shams".** And "ghouroob ash-shams" is the sun's rubbing.
Thus, I think we should be straightening our links all over the day and parts of the night, plus some reading (studying) at dawn.
** edited to add this part.
-
Peace,
STRAIGHTENING To make straight (From Merriam Webster)
1 a free from curves, bends, angles, or irregularities <straight hair> <straight timber> b generated by a point moving continuously in the same direction and expressed by a linear equation <a straight line> <the straight segment of a curve>
2 a lying along or holding to a direct or proper course or method <a straight thinker> b CANDID, FRANK <a straight answer> c coming directly from a trustworthy source <a straight tip on the horses> d (1) having the elements in an order <the straight sequence of events> (2) CONSECUTIVE <12 straight days> e having the cylinders arranged in a single straight line <a straight 8-cylinder engine> f PLUMB, VERTICAL <the picture isn't quite straight>
3 a exhibiting honesty and fairness <straight dealing> b properly ordered or arranged <set the kitchen straight> <set us straight on that issue>; also CORRECT <get the facts straight> c free from extraneous matter UNMIXED <straight whiskey> d marked by no exceptions or deviations in support of a principle or party <votes a straight Democratic ticket> e having a fixed price for each regardless of the number sold f not deviating from an indicated pattern <writes straight humor> <a straight-A student> g (1) exhibiting no deviation from what is established or accepted as usual, normal, or proper CONVENTIONAL; also SQUARE 5f (2) not using or under the influence of drugs or alcohol h HETEROSEXUAL
4 being the only form of remuneration <on straight commission>
RELATION
1 the act of telling or recounting ACCOUNT
2 an aspect or quality (as resemblance) that connects two or more things or parts as being or belonging or working together or as being of the same kind <the relation of time and space>; specifically a property (as one expressed by is equal to, is less than, or is the brother of) that holds between an ordered pair of objects
3 the referring by a legal fiction of an act to a prior date as the time of its taking effect
4 a (1) a person connected by consanguinity or affinity RELATIVE (2) a person legally entitled to a share of the property of an intestate b relationship by consanguinity or affinity KINSHIP
5 REFERENCE, RESPECT <in relation to>
6 the attitude or stance which two or more persons or groups assume toward one another <race relations>
7 a the state of being mutually or reciprocally interested (as in social or commercial matters) b plural (1) DEALINGS, AFFAIRS <foreign relations> (2) INTERCOURSE (3) SEXUAL INTERCOURSE
-
peace someone,
Ok, so perhaps I should have said "at a specific time".
Its amazing that traditional Muslims take those verses, you know the ones that say "praise" or "glorify" (your Lord) at certain times of the day as referring to salat (even though the word is not used) BUT not the dawn reading, most say this has nothing to do with salat.
Wakas
-
Peace be upon you Wakas,
I agree with your point.
Someone, I disagree thta "dulook" would refer to the entire daytime because the sun does not give th eimpression of "rubbing" the entire day, only when it moves past another object does it appear to "rub". Further, the process we call salaat is for us to remember the God, it is not the remembering ITSELF(capitols for emphasis). We maintain this process of reciting the God's reading(quran) at dawn and dusk (times when day and night come together/unify) and by PROGRAMMING the message into our MINDS we can REMEMBER throughout the entire day.
Just like watching a movie at PRIME TIME(normally dusk as advertisers know the SCIENCE of programming), we can remember the show the next day and talk at the water cooler, or we read the "morning paper" when we wake up and remember all that we read throuout the day.
But salaat is to be maintained and guarded because there is a battle for the control of minds(nafs).
-
Peace upon you,
Wakas, I have never read the scripture at dawn, at least not yet. I hope to experience this sometimes, I think there's some benefits to it as idolfree1 suggested, plus its mentionning in the scripture. I can but imagine the state of mind during the day when reading some of the scripture at dawn, helping us to be "straight" all the day.
Idolfree1, "dalaka" in arabic has as first meaning "to massage", it's a nuance of rubbing.
To rub (from Merriam webster)
1 a to move along the surface of a body with pressure GRATE b (1) to fret or chafe with or as if with friction (2) to cause discontent, irritation, or anger
2 to continue in a situation usually with slight difficulty <in spite of financial difficulties, he is rubbing along>
3 to admit of being rubbed (as for erasure or obliteration) transitive senses
1 a to subject to or as if to the action of something moving especially back and forth with pressure and friction b (1) to cause (a body) to move with pressure and friction along a surface (2) to treat in any of various ways by rubbing c to bring into reciprocal back-and-forth or rotary contact
2 ANNOY, IRRITATE- rub elbows or rub shoulders to associate closely MINGLE
- rub one's nose in to bring forcefully or repeatedly to one's attention
- rub the wrong way to arouse the antagonism or displeasure of IRRITATE
During the daytime, the sun seems moving slowly on a spherical surface (sky), as if the sun is "pushing" against the sky, with some friction.
Plus, as far as my understanding goes, straightening relations or links (iqamat as-salat) should be done all day long and part of night. I mean, one should not be "straight or logical and equitable" in the morning, and "headless" for the rest of the day, and then on sunset re-becoming "straight".
And as far as arabic goes, "doolouk ash-shams" doesn't mean sunset, it's a derived or imposed meaning, limiting the time scope described in the verse 1778 to sunset only.
I hope this clarify my position in understanding this issue.
-
Peace be upon you Someone,
To summarize at this point, our only disagreement is the matter of "rubbing" being the horizon, or the sky.
I think this is only a matter of sitting back and witnessing this event. I think that when one sees the star sirius, which appears further away from us than the sun, we can determine that the sky is not suitable for the rubbing, while the horizon even gives a different perception of the sun as it moves past the horizon.
This reading(quran) gives clarification of that "percieved nearness" when it states that dhul quarnain found the sun setting IN water.
So for me, the evidence is in favor of the horizons, and this also coincides with salaat timing of dawn and dusk.
It seems you are confusing the method of salaat with teh Purpose of salaat. The METHOD is to be maintained at dawn and dusk, the PURPOSE continues on throughout the day and night. Its like doing excercise for a sport (although the systme of the God is not in any way a sport). You run miles and jump rope to get you prepared to play the game. Running and jumping is not the game itself.
-
Peace idolfree1, and all
I should have translated "iqamatou as-salati" as "straightening the relation" which is a generalization of "maintaining the learning process".
When learning about a field of science, basically what we are doing, is looking for a relation between a cause and an effect (or effects). We can go by multiple ways or theories, some are more complex than others, but the straight way is the shortest and easiest way. And the ultimate relation is to the god, it's the "straightiest" way to the creator.
We are asked to not be headless about our relations, be it mental or physical, knowledge or deeds, relations with the creator or with the creation(including people). Thus we are aware all the time of the signs around us, taking benefit as the god wills.
Those who are headless about their relations, get driven by their ego or by someone else's ego, and are taken by the flood of non-sense away from the truth.
-
Peace be upon you Someone,
Yes, we should always be heedless of ths signs around us, but during the day we are often busy working EXTERNALLY, and at night we are sleeping(INTERNALLY), but the times where the day and night merge (dawn and dusk) we are to maintain the "salaat" so that while we are busy working, our subconscious is working with us, not against us.
-
I have two questions about this verse, maybe the Arabic speakers can help.
-
"...at the sun's rubbing until the darkness of the night..." Does the rubbing refer to the zenith? That is how Muhammad Asad has translated it. RK, Shakir, YA, and Pickthal also indicate this as a "declining" portion of the sun (ie., time after zentith)
-
Concerning the next verse, (ASAD) And rise from thy sleep and pray during part of the night. (1779). I noticed that the command used the word "thy" instead of "you". Could this have been a commad for Muhammad alone?
-
-
peace ams,
-
From the root meanings I've seen, DLK is only applicable post-zenith, i.e. from the beginning of decline. Most suggest sunset (i.e. rubbing/squeezing/pressing, become red, set).
-
1779 contains the word "nafilatan" which means
= Nuun-Fa-Lam = give spoil, gift, voluntary gift, accession/addition, something that exceeds the original, a deed beyond what is obligatory.
All above info is available in PRL release 2.
Wakas
-
-
Thanks Wakas, but I'm still confused about the second question.
Is it possible that the command in 1778 was for Muhammad only? Is there any indication in the Arabic that would differentiate this. For example, 1779 used the word "thy" instead of the plural form "you". Thus, the antecedent to "thy" would be Muhammad. Is there any similar indication for 1778?
To me it seems that the verses sorrounding 1778 are specific for Muhammad.
YA
73 - And their purpose was to tempt thee away from that which We had revealed unto thee, to substitute in our name something quite different; (in that case), behold! they would certainly have made thee (their) friend!
74 -And had We not given thee strength, thou wouldst nearly have inclined to them a little.
75 - In that case We should have made thee taste an equal portion (of punishment) in this life, and an equal portion in death and moreover thou wouldst have found none to help thee against Us!
76 - Their purpose was to scare thee off the land, in order to expel thee; but in that case they would not have stayed (therein) after thee, except for a little while.
77 - (This was Our) way with the messengers We sent before thee thou wilt find no change in Our ways.
78 - Establish regular prayers - at the sun's decline till the darkness of the night, and the morning prayer and reading for the prayer and reading in the morning carry their testimony.
79 - And pray in the small watches of the morning (it would be) an additional prayer (or spiritual profit) for thee soon will thy Lord raise thee to a Station of Praise and Glory!
80 - Say "O my Lord! Let my entry be by the Gate of Truth and Honour, and likewise my exit by the Gate of Truth and Honour; and grant me from Thy Presence an authority to aid (me)."To me it seems like these verses are personal communication from God to Muhammad. God starts off by letting Muhammad know that it was He that helped him during his times of persecution. Then, it commands Muhammad to perform the "reading at dawn.
It makes sense to me that Muhammad in particular was commanded to recite the Quran at dawn. He was responisble for delivering the message.
I had a random thought, is it possible that the "recitation at dawn" refers to copying the Quran down in writing? Perhaps (if this is a command for Muhammad only) this verse refers to the act of using scribes to record Quran, as Muhammad recited the Quran (at dawn).As I understand it, there is no extra-quranic communication between Muhammad and God. Thus, if there were commands specific for Muhammad they would be imbedded in the Quran. (ex 3350, "...any believing woman who dedicates her soul to the Prophet if the Prophet wishes to wed her;- this only for thee, and not for the Believers (at large)"
Do you see any validity to this interpertation?
-
And one more thing...
"...The reading at dawn is always witnessed"
Witnessed by whom? Scribes? God? God witnessess EVERYTHING always for any event.
Maybe this part of the verse indicated to Muhammad that the "recitation at dawn" is to be witnessed (i.e., scribes)?
-
Peace
And one more thing...
"...The reading at dawn is always witnessed"
Witnessed by whom? Scribes? God? God witnessess EVERYTHING always for any event.
Maybe this part of the verse indicated to Muhammad that the "recitation at dawn" is to be witnessed (i.e., scribes)?
according to my humble knowledge of arabic inna quranal fajri kana mashuda could read as "the dawn`s reading will be witnessed!" meaning exactly as you put it -is to be witnessed....a kind of imperative to people to visit and hear reciting of the revelation...i also remember anwar goins one of the most knowledgeable of "quranists" in arabic i ever met claimed this (only the grammar part)....
best wishes, Zlatan
p.s. i think , if i am not mistaken that such a construction is also characteristic of english language..can anyone confirm this?
-
a kind of imperative to people to visit and hear reciting of the revelation
-
Is this imperative directed at Muhammad only? It seems so to me.
-
What significane does the Arabic word for "witnessed" have? In English, for example, witness/witnessed
-One who can give a firsthand account of something seen, heard, or experienced
-To attest to the legality or authenticity of by signing one's name to
-To be present at or have personal knowledge of
For example, when signing important legal documents, typically a notary public is required to witness the signing.- Who is the witness?
...imperative to people to visit
Is this an imperative for all people in general to act as the witnesses?- Again, i need some Arabic help. What is the word translated as "reading/recitation"? Could it mean something like written/recorded?
In English it does not. Recitation means "The act of reciting memorized materials in a public performance"
-
-
peace ams,
I was implying that whether 1779 is addressed to Muhammad or not may not be relevant, considering the command is optional due to the word NFL being used. In any case, I believe sister Marie pointed out it is indeed in the singular "you", see
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1695The word used in 1778 is "qurana". Theoretically it could mean any of the QRA root meanings*. I have heard it being suggested that it means "compilation/collection". This is an interesting view, however I'm not sure if significant evidence exists to swing one meaning (i.e. reading) over the other (i.e. compilation/collection).
*compilation, collection, reading, recitation, explanation, study, investigation.
Wakas
-
Peace brother Wakas,
The word used in 1778 is "qurana". Theoretically it could mean any of the QRA root meanings*. I have heard it being suggested that it means "compilation/collection". This is an interesting view, however I'm not sure if significant evidence exists to swing one meaning (i.e. reading) over the other (i.e. compilation/collection).
*compilation, collection, reading, recitation, explanation, study, investigation.
I suggest that people see what meaning fits best in all the verses. For example, one can easily compare the following and see which is correct and which is not logical
-
And when the compilation is compiled listen to it and pay attention...
-
And when the reading is read listen to it and pay attention...
Clearly, in the context of "listening and paying attention" reading is logical while compilation doesn't make any sense.
Here is another example
-
and when the compilation is compiled on them they don't prostrate/hear and obey
-
and when the reading is read on them they don't prostrate/hear and obey
Clearly, "the compilation is compiled on them" is pure nonsense while "the reading is read on them" is logical.
You can look at many other verses such as 1745-47 where like 8421 the meaning of compilation leads to nonsense and 7517 where the synonyms compilation and gatheirng being together leads to illogical redundancy.
I advise people here not to accept the dictionaries as perfect. The dictionaries contain many errors and misclassifications. Hence, must be used intelligently while knowing their limitations.
For example, the word quru' in 2228 is misclassified under Q-R-'A when it should be under Q-R-W. The word quru' is where the wrong meaning of "quran" as "gathering/compilation" seems to have arose out of.
At any rate, translating "quran" as "compilation" is better than not translating it at all. Although for now some people are not aware or don't yet see the logical errors created by such translation, eventually, people will come to see what meaning fits better in all the verses. But if they didn't translate it then there is no chance of ever seeing the error in their understanding.
I hope this helps.
Peace and all besy wishes,
Ayman
-
-
peace someone,
I agree that "doolouk ash-shams" can mean other than "sunset" but this is its meaning given in Lane.
Wakas
If Lane says that "Salat" means "robbing other people", do you believe it?
My understanding is that it means early afternoon/noon. Allah could have used the word "Zuhr" and that means when the Sun is at its highest point, but instead he uses "liduluki ash-shamsi", which means " at the declining of the sun". This means after the sun begins to decline, which is the early afternoon.
If it would mean sunset, then the words "ghrubi ash-shamsi" would be used, since that means sunset and is UNAMBIGIOUS.
Therefore, (IMO) "liduluki ash-shamsi" means the declining of the sun at noon/early afternoon making it the noon prayer.
Remember 6210, which talks about observing the Friday prayer and the "dropping off business" before it and then returning from the prayer. This means that is in the middle of the day.
-
If Lane says that "Salat" means "robbing other people", do you believe it?
If Lane says that "salat" means "prayer", do you believe it?
Dont forget the other meanings listed in Lane, and I'm sure many other Classical Arabic dictionaries rubbing, squeezing, pressing, become red, set. All of which favour the sunset meaning, not from the zenith meaning.
My understanding is that it means early afternoon/noon. Allah could have used the word "Zuhr" and that means when the Sun is at its highest point, but instead he uses "liduluki ash-shamsi", which means " at the declining of the sun". This means after the sun begins to decline, which is the early afternoon.
If it would mean sunset, then the words "ghrubi ash-shamsi" would be used, since that means sunset and is UNAMBIGIOUS.
Tell us, is "ghrubi ash-shamsi" used in Al Quran? If so, where? And if it means "sunset", does it mean from when the sun begins to decline below the horizon or when it has set?
Therefore, (IMO) "liduluki ash-shamsi" means the declining of the sun at noon/early afternoon making it the noon prayer.
The verse says lidulooki alshshamsi ila (to) ghasaqi (darkness of) al layli (the night)
Noon prayer till night? That's one long definition of noon.
Remember 6210, which talks about observing the Friday prayer and the "dropping off business" before it and then returning from the prayer. This means that is in the middle of the day.
Friday prayer? Proof? "this means that is in the middle of the day"? Proof?
Have you read the past discussion on the forum?
###########################################
In any case, now that this thread has been brought back up, I noticed no-one really answered the original question. Are there no other specific daily tasks required of us in Al Quran? If so, is it just a big coincidence salat al fajr coincides with quran al fajr?
-
If Lane says that "salat" means "prayer", do you believe it?
I don't look at the Lane and don't follow it.
Tell us, is "ghrubi ash-shamsi" used in Al Quran? If so, where? And if it means "sunset", does it mean from when the sun begins to decline below the horizon or when it has set?
Now, first of all, if it would mean "the redness at the end of sunset" then the following words would be used as in
8416 - But nay! I swear by the sunset rednessNotice that "shafaq" is used in the original arabic. This is exactly describing the the redness of the sky at the end of sunset, which is the prayer that you pray (next to the dawn prayer). If God would want to us to do this in 1778, he would gave used "shafaq" or "ghurub", which mean "redness of sky" (at sunset/dusk) and "sunset", respectively.
To answer your other challenge (quoting verses where "ghurub or ghrubi ash-shamsi", which means sunset, is used) I will quote for you the following verse(20130)
Bear then patiently what they say, and glorify your Lord by the praising of Him before the rising of the sun and before its setting, and during hours of the night do also glorify (Him) and during parts of the day, that you may be well pleased.
The transliteration is Fbir
Al? M Yaqlna Wa Sabbi Biamdi Rabbika Qabla uli Ash-Shamsi Wa Qabla Ghurbih Wa Min 'n'i Al-Layli Fasabbi Wa 'Arfa An-Nahri La`allaka Tar?Is this enough or do you need more verses? It clearly says "before the SETTING OF THE SUN" and it uses the words "ghurubiha" and "shams" (sunset and sun).
If this is still not enough, then look at 5039
Therefore be patient of what they say, and sing the praise of your Lord before the rising of the sun and before the setting.
Transliteration Fbir
Al? M Yaqlna Wa Sabbi Biamdi Rabbika Qabla uli Ash-Shamsi Wa Qabla Al-GhurbiGhrubi ash-shamsi/ghurub not used?! I gave you the evidence that it is used.
BTW notice the similarity between "maGHRIB" and "GHURUB" both have "GHRB" in common.
The verse says lidulooki alshshamsi ila (to) ghasaqi (darkness of) al layli (the night)
Noon prayer till night? That's one long definition of noon.
"lidulooki ash-shamsi" means "AT the declining of the sun." And from the PROOFS I have listed above, we can deduct that that "dulook al-shams" is NOT at dusk. Think about it the sun STARTS to decline just after noon. lets say that this is at 1200 o'clock. at 1221 it is still declining. Guess what.. at 1415 it is STILL declining..wow..great, huh?
Besides kidding around with you I am just telling you that the sun is declining BEFORE SUNSET. The sun doesnt shift down 20 degrees magically at 1900 o'clock (7 pm). It takes time to decline.
As for the "untill"... I think you already had that answered by hflatif or so. i cant remember the name totally, but its somewhere at freewebs.com/tawhiyd. The person explained that "salaat" is an activity noun in arabic just like sawm, and it is used in the singular when describing a time range whereas it can still mean more than one within that time range. please ask Al-Khidr for more info. I'm not quite sure, but it could have been you that was discussing about that.
Friday prayer? Proof? "this means that is in the middle of the day"? Proof?
Look at my post at "the congregational prayer".
I'm looking forward to your further input.
Peace
