Salat & the Kaaba
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There is a high probability that Muhammad never saw the Kaaba in his life. The earliest mosques do NOT point to Mecca.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604866.msg317964#msg317964
high probability? ...
?History would be a wonderful thing ? if it were only true.?
Very well said by L. Tolstoy...
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peace MofF,
While reading this I get the feeling some Quranists are starting to abrogate verses in the Quran purely through wishful thinking.
Some of the Quranists start losing the prayers, even if it is quite clear that we are commanded to pray by standing, bowing and prostrating. The circumstantial evidence is prominent, yet some of our brothers and sisters interpret the verses in strange ways.
Maybe the wish to differentiate with traditional Muslims is so big we fall victim to wishful thinking, interpreting the verses the way our mind wants.The Qiblah is explained too and is the sacred mosque in Mecca (or Becca). It was changed during some period to expose hypocrites, but eventually changed back.
I can understand why you'd say that, but I'm only interested in evidence. You posted zero Quranic evidence.
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Peace Wakas.
Obeying God is part of submission. There are those who see rituals and there are those who do not. It is what you make of these verses ? And how you see redemption?
All that was asked of them was to serve/worship God, devoting the deen/religion absolutely to Him alone, observe Salat and give the Zakat
You shall recite what is revealed to you of the scripture, and observe Salat for the Salat prohibits evil and vice. But the remembrance of God (through Salat) is the most important objective. God knows everything you do.
O you who believe, Sawm is decreed for you, as it was decreed for those before you, that you may attain salvation.
The most important beyt established for the people is the one in Becca; a blessed beacon for all the people.
In it are clear signs the Maquam of Abraham. Anyone who enters it shall be granted safe passage. The people owe it to God that they shall observe Hajj to the beyt, when they can do/afford/have the means to... it. As for those who disbelieve, God does not need anyone.
The soul and Him who created it. Then showed it what is evil and what is good. Successful is one who redeems it. Failing is one who neglects it.
Indeed, those who reverence the rites decreed by God demonstrate the righteousness of their hearts.
And serve/ worship your Lord, in order to attain certainty.
May the lord guide our hearts and minds to serve Him by understanding His words and commands.
Peace.
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peace gl,
It is what you make of these verses ? And how you see redemption?
I agree it is all about one's interpretation, but I would hope one bases their interpretation on evidence and which option has the most evidence for it etc.
Quran is simple to understand, if one simply goes with the evidence. This is my view. I dont mind if someone has different views to me but I do have a problem if someone claims Quran says XYZ but presents little/no evidence for it.
For example, for someone to say " "salat" means "prayer" in Quran" " but be unable to cite one verse which conclusively proves it is not ideal. Likewise, for someone to say " "sujud" means physical prostration in Quran" " but are unable to cite a verse which conclusively proves it is not ideal.
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Peace,
So you mean millions and again millions of people are idiots because they do physical prostration? Is that not proof enough? Besides the Quran enjoins the same ritual, but I will not bother trying to prove something so many have already proven. Believe what you believe and I will believe what I believe.
May God bless you with understanding
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peace MofF,
I did not say stupid.
Numbers do not prove anything. Christians are large in number, are they right?
The majority of people on earth misguided/disbelievers
If you obey the majority of people on earth, they will divert you from the path of GOD. They follow only conjecture; they only guess. (6116)
This is the right religion, but most people do not know. (3030)Most of those who think they believe in God are actually idolaters
So many proofs in the heavens and the earth are given to them, but they pass by them, heedlessly! The majority of those who believe in GOD do not do so without committing idol worship. (12106)Some of those who think they are guided/believers are not
Some He guided, while others are committed to straying. They have taken the devils as their masters, instead of GOD, yet they believe that they are guided. (730)
On the day when we summon them all, we will ask the idol worshipers, "Where are the idols you set up?" Their disastrous response will be, "By GOD our Lord, we never were idol worshipers." Note how they lied to themselves, and how the idols they had invented have abandoned them. (622-24)If you are interested in my view on sujud, feel free to read/study
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-of-SuJuD-from-Quran.html -
Yeah, that argument about so many people doing something should mean it's right is dumb, for the reasons mentioned above. Christians worldwide are also large in number (outweighing Muslims even) so indeed following the majority on Earth will give you a big plate of nothing. For the record, I think I'd've been a much happier individual had I been raised Christian in Europe or South America...just saying.
Ok, and a thousand or so people will convert to Islam by the next month, guess what they'll be doing? Blind-following Sunni Islam. All the women in the group will don Sunni women clothing, the men will probably stop shaving for a while and they'll blindly do what the mainstream Muslims are doing, NOT because it makes sense but since they don't want to feel left out. This is the same reason my family's following blindly. They don't want to be declared outcasts by the major religious sect, and heck think that by being rational at all in religion then you'll inevitably be lead to disbelief. Hell, just a few hours ago my parents literally got pissed I didn't group-pray maghrib with them, despite in their awfully stupid religion group prayers aren't even mandatory - just recommended...what next? Am I going to get harsh reactions for not getting part of my labias and clitoris cut off if I was a girl, because it's, like group prayers, only recommended in said religion? No compulsion in religion means you're not going to build hard feeling towards your own son just because he doesn't attend some polytheistic prayer with you. You'll love him for who he is and should be comfortable with him believing what he wants.
WHY should I care that I'm one in 1,000 Muslims who, for example, think Sahih Bukhari and Muslim is man-made horsecrap? Why should I care that I don't blind-follow which the Quran clearly tells us not to anyway, and that I believe prostrating to this physical object which according to sources around may or may not even be "bayt Allah" is polytheistic, not that the Quran even says to do such a thing. Simply visiting a location or residence like "the house" of Allah to do something there is not and I mean nothing close to prostrating to an object people claim is God's house!
For the record I lol'd at the bit pointing out that technically it's impossible to face it and if you tried you'd be technically facing a point in space anyway.
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Peace,
So you mean millions and again millions of people are idiots because they do physical prostration? Is that not proof enough? Besides the Quran enjoins the same ritual, but I will not bother trying to prove something so many have already proven. Believe what you believe and I will believe what I believe.
May God bless you with understanding
I don't think I was an idiot. Neither do I think that my family and millions others are idiots. I believed that physical prostration at fixed times was from God till I came to learn that this is not true.
A lie told and passed on through the generations still remains a lie and doesn't become the truth just because millions of people believe it. A lie was told that God had a son from a human mother which millions came to believe to be truth. Just the same, an understanding or belief held by many regarding verses in the koran doesn't mean that it is right or true.
I am not interested in what millions believe what God said. i am interested in and what matters to me is what God said. At the end, I have to face God.
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If you are interested in my view on sujud, feel free to read/study
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-of-SuJuD-from-Quran.htmlThanks for the link. Do you have other links like these?
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Yeah, that argument about so many people doing something should mean it's right is dumb, for the reasons mentioned above. Christians worldwide are also large in number (outweighing Muslims even) so indeed following the majority on Earth will give you a big plate of nothing. For the record, I think I'd've been a much happier individual had I been raised Christian in Europe or South America...just saying.
Why do you say that? I went to catholic schools and I sure was not happy kneeling down on pews, sitting, standing, singing, trying to keep awake listening to the preacher. The nuns sure were anything but pleasant and you dare not slouch, dose off.... Sitting next to an old lady dressed in her finest Sunday outfit with cheap perfume - oh that is torture! I sure would not be happy if my mom threw cold water on my face if i didn't get out of bed Sunday am to get ready for church - which is what mother of a friend of mine did. If you don't go to church, then you will be looked down upon. You can't go to the store without someone asking you how come you didn't go to church. I think you would be miserable in a different way. It is the same in every community.
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Peace Wakas.
Obeying God is part of submission. There are those who see rituals and there are those who do not. It is what you make of these verses ? And how you see redemption?
Here is what I really would like to know and if anyone here knows where did this definition salat=ritual worship come from? Anyone know the history? The origins?
Even if you interpret sujud=physical prostration, how did people come to define salat=physical ritual which involves this many rakahs, with all the details?
If anyone here see ritual in the verses quoted by good logic, really would like to know.
Can someone take these verses and point out the rituals in the verses, as the more and more I look and understand the verses in the context, the less and less I see rituals.
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The traditional method of salat is justified nowhere in the Quran. Traditionalist take whatever verses they want and twist them to mean what they want. The rest of the details (which are man-made) come from the Sunna i.e. the supposed teachings and traditions of Mohamed, which is no more fictional than the Harry Potter series.
Also, I would've been much happier since, even though I'd be going through what you mentioned (which is what I still went through being raised in a Muslim family) I would not have had my genitals mutilated. THAT is MUCH worse than what you simply highlighted, once you realize the full difference between a cirumcised and natural penis.
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peace justamuslim,
In terms of other links like those, well there are many articles online that discuss various issues of Quran based islam. If you meant specifically on sujud there are other articles perhaps online. There are certainly posts on this forum and others discussing it.
Here is what I really would like to know and if anyone here knows where did this definition salat=ritual worship come from? Anyone know the history? The origins?
Even if you interpret sujud=physical prostration, how did people come to define salat=physical ritual which involves this many rakahs, with all the details?
Good questions.
For me, it is quite simple http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/slw.htm
My understanding of the regular/timed salat/bond of the mumineen is a regular reading/oration/study of Quran. This can still be seen in the Traditional ritual prayer, i.e. they recite Quran, and especially in the Friday khutbah/lecture wherein they relay what Quran says (and Traditional Hadith mixed in), and the audience nods or give a verbal recognition/acceptance of what is being said etc.
It is likely that at the time Jewish/Christian/Zoroastrian/pagan ritual worship involved set routines, certain movements, praising God/deity etc. Since Quran only specified the basics of the regular/timed salat, it is very likely there was no fixed procedure, thus people would have picked and chose what they liked, and this likely led to a mix, gradual modification. In such an environment all is required is certain state/religious leaders to decree a certain thing and it becomes part of the ritual. It would be gradual over a period of time.Many people have written about this, on this forum, and articles, especially the Zoroastrian influence.
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Hi Everyone,
Here is my two cents again. I think we get too worried about the how and the why. The more important item is the meaning and how meaningful the practice is. I think Allah wants us to pray to him regularly, several times a day (many arguments about how many times). This is because prayer helps to give meaning to our lives. It is a time for reflection, it is a time to look outside ones self to something bigger, a time to put things into perspective about our purpose, a time to connect with Allah. This provides for a meaningful life and a meaningful relationship with Allah and more meaningful relationships with others. So when the Quran says "turn your face" some people want to know turn towards what? If the Kaaba is a focal point for people so that they can focus on prayer more effectively, then what is wrong with it? If it makes prayer and connection with Allah more meaningful and doesn't contradict the Quran, I don't have a problem with it.
JewishDude
peace Salam, Shalom, Peace peace -
Hi Everyone,
Here is my two cents again. I think we get too worried about the how and the why. The more important item is the meaning and how meaningful the practice is. I think Allah wants us to pray to him regularly, several times a day (many arguments about how many times). This is because prayer helps to give meaning to our lives. It is a time for reflection, it is a time to look outside ones self to something bigger, a time to put things into perspective about our purpose, a time to connect with Allah. This provides for a meaningful life and a meaningful relationship with Allah and more meaningful relationships with others. So when the Quran says "turn your face" some people want to know turn towards what? If the Kaaba is a focal point for people so that they can focus on prayer more effectively, then what is wrong with it? If it makes prayer and connection with Allah more meaningful and doesn't contradict the Quran, I don't have a problem with it.
JewishDude
peace Salam, Shalom, Peace peaceThank you for putting things into perspective and simplifying the issue.
Baruh Hashem
Shalom
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Also, I would've been much happier since, even though I'd be going through what you mentioned (which is what I still went through being raised in a Muslim family) I would not have had my genitals mutilated. THAT is MUCH worse than what you simply highlighted, once you realize the full difference between a cirumcised and natural penis.
Majority of the males in the United States are circumcised mostly soon after birth. Doctors are trained to do circumcision. For medical reasons some adult males have this procedure done. Here's an article from CDC website http//www.cdc.gov/hiv/malecircumcision/
About female genital mutilation - well, it is not done amongst Muslims worldwide. Is it not an Islamic practice as far as i know. Is it really in the hadiths? I don't know all about the thousands of hadiths. From what I know, female genital mutilation used to be done in the united states also and in different religions/culture. It is not a practice in Indian subcontinent where I come from - that I know of.
By the way, I was raised in traditional sunni Muslim family as well but went to catholic schools and currently live in a place where 99.9% are Christians. Personally, so glad was not born into a Christian family! thank God for that!
True happiness lies in following God's system
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Thanks Wakas. yes, this is what i am looking for. Wherever there was mention of salat, I substituted yoga and asked does this make sense to say don't go near yoga or seek help with yoga, or guard yoga?
In one verse, God tells us not to go NEAR salat. In another, to UPHOLD salat. to ESTABLISH salat. To GUARD. To be MINDFUL. To seek HELP with salat. PREPARE for salat.
Seems that salat has more than one meaning in the context that is said. I am not so sure about this distinction between mumin and Muslim though. Need to contemplate more and dig deeper for understanding.
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Peace,
In the name of God, the most Gracious, the most Merciful
While reading this I get the feeling some Quranists are starting to abrogate verses in the Quran purely through wishful thinking.
Some of the Quranists start losing the prayers, even if it is quite clear that we are commanded to pray by standing, bowing and prostrating. The circumstantial evidence is prominent, yet some of our brothers and sisters interpret the verses in strange ways.
Maybe the wish to differentiate with traditional Muslims is so big we fall victim to wishful thinking, interpreting the verses the way our mind wants.Saying no to Hadith does not mean we should stop obeying God's hadith, in that case we would not even need the Quran. The Quran is a guide, easy to learn (thus also easy to interpret with a clear honest mind) and having access to it is not exclusively a must, but it certainly makes our salvation easier. Believing that Quran is the word of God is required though.
Most important, you can verify it yourselves by reading the Quran, is to believe in God alone, the Hereafter and to be righteous. Righteousness is self-explanatory, every human knows the foundation of being a good person (charity, being helpful, lawful, obedient, patient, kind etc), i.e.
a role-model.The Qiblah is explained too and is the sacred mosque in Mecca (or Becca). It was changed during some period to expose hypocrites, but eventually changed back.
May God guide us in the right direction.
ps. I wrote the Basmala because everything I do I try to do in the name of God ds.
Well said brother I totally agree, Just beacuse something is in the hadith does not mean it is not in the Quran, but what differs is how to do it according to Quran and how to do it according to hadith.
Salaam
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Sorry in advance if this has been asked. My question isn't that general though so that's the main reason I made the topic (search didn't help enough).
This isn't really about hajj, but about salat. I can't shake off the feeling aiming a ritual prayer towards (and prostrating towards) the famous Kaaba in Mecca is just made-up. Even supposing this is the actual Kaaba in the Quran,
Indeed, the first House established for mankind was that at Becca - blessed and a guidance for the worlds.396
Indeed, as-Safa and al-Marwah are among the symbols of Allah . So whoever makes Hajj to the House or performs 'umrah - there is no blame upon him for walking between them. And whoever volunteers good - then indeed, Allah is appreciative and Knowing. 2158
- Becca means "narrow valley, Kabba is situated in narrow valley of Safa and Marwah,
- The house is established for the "Mankind" "NAAS" therefore, let say if Adam was the first man can we minus him from mankind. Therefore, Kabba is from day one.
I don't think there's any command to physically pray towards it, let alone prostrate in its direction.
And when We made the House a place of return for the mankind and security. And take, , from the standing place of Abraham a place of prayer. And We charged Abraham and Ishmael, , "Purify My House for those who perform Tawaf and those who are staying for worship and those who bow and prostrate ."
Wa-ith jaAAalna albayta mathabatanlinnasi waamnan wattakhithoo minmaqami ibraheema musallan waAAahidnaila ibraheema wa-ismaAAeela an tahhirabaytiya litta-ifeena walAAakifeenawarrukkaAAi assujood
- Again the House/Kabba been described with mankind
- wattakhithoo = and take
- minmaqami ibraheema = from the standing position of Ibraheem
- musallan = Prayer performed
Therefore, Salaat is ordained from the time of Ibraheem (pbuh), if someone need to confirm the how to pray one can see it established in Kabba, and copy that prayer/salaat. As, people are already performing prayer in same verse/ayat.
And, when Abraham was tried by his Lord with commands and he fulfilled them. said, "Indeed, I will make you a Imam/leader for the people." said, "And of my descendants?" said, "My covenant does not include the wrongdoers." 2124
Allah confirms that Ibraheem (pbuh) is the Imam for Mankind.
Can someone show me the verse closest to implying we should pray and prostrate towards the Kaaba (the one in Mecca)?
We have certainly seen the turning of your face, toward the heaven, and We will surely turn you to a qiblah with which you will be pleased. So turn your face toward al-Masjid al-Haram. And wherever you are, turn your faces toward it . Indeed, those who have been given the Scripture well know that it is the truth from their Lord. And Allah is not unaware of what they do.2124
And from whatsoever place you come forth, turn your face towards the Sacred Mosque; and wherever you are turn your faces towards it, so that people shall have no accusation against you, except such of them as are unjust; so do not fear them, and fear Me, that I may complete My favor on you and that you may walk on the right course. 2;150
Qiblah = direction of belief
Our direction of belief comes from "Masjid al Haram/kabba/the house/" therefore, when we pray we face towards Kabba.
And We inspired to Moses and his brother, "Settle your people in Egypt in houses and make your houses qiblah and establish prayer and give good tidings to the believers." 1087
Peace
