SURA FATIHA IS NOT IN THE "ORIGINAL QURAN"

Mazhar

Salaam Mazhar

My post above explains in simple terms what an aayat is, or what ayaat mean. Now you explain to me what do you propose that ayaat is supposed to mean here ???; Aa'ya'at-Verbal Unitary Passages selected-excepted from the Binary-Symmetrical-analogous Miscellany.

Peace

Its Root is

The basic perception infolded in the Root of is that of a physical mark, indication, landmark, corporeal, real thing having dimensions; or a discernible sign which one can perceive and save in memory with reference to its surroundings and dimensions. Thereby, what is achieved is a bit-unit of information. Nothing can be perceived and stored in memory without relating it to something else.
Moreover, everything has two aspects, one apparent and visible perceivable through vision; and the other is invisible but integral part of that thing. Therefore, this Root signifies any apparent thing inseparable from a thing not equally apparent so that when one perceives the former he perceives the other to a certain extent which he cannot otherwise perceive.

This is the visual side of learning knowledge. The other source of knowing and perceiving things is verbal. When the creator of a thing who knows absolutely the visible and invisible aspect of that thing verbally narrates about that thing, such verbal statement is " " in the true sense of the word.

marifhaq

My Dear GODsubmitter,
I just read,your reply to my posting titled as above.You wrote that was quran assembled after a century.No it was not so,quran was there,but without sura fatiha as sura one.Then about a century later,scholars of that time found that this beautiful sura must be a part of quran,and be placed at the beginning of quran.
just google,"quran complex" and go to quran pictures and see yourself that many older qurans start with sura baqar.And read in present quran that indicates that "quran and 7 oft repeated ayaats" are two different items,one is not included into other.
And feel free to ask anything which is still not clear.Thanks

SarahY

marifhaq

Also present quran says,"quran and seven oft repeated ayats"this also tells us that quran and seven ayats are two different writtings.But after the firsst century people added this sura as a part of quran perhaps because of its repeating in prayers.Thanks.

Quran doesnt use the word ayat but rather mathani

(1587)

What do you think the 7 oft repeated mathani are if it isn't the fatiha verses? do you believe the fatiha isn't part of the Quran, that it is part of the mathani and later in time it was recorded in Quran? or something else?

farida

Its Root is

The basic perception infolded in the Root of is that of a physical mark, indication, landmark, corporeal, real thing having dimensions; or a discernible sign which one can perceive and save in memory with reference to its surroundings and dimensions. Thereby, what is achieved is a bit-unit of information. Nothing can be perceived and stored in memory without relating it to something else.

salaam Mazhar

Thank you very much for detailing from the root word explanation of " " If I were to sum up what you said above in one word would it be
='Sign'?

Moreover, everything has two aspects, one apparent and visible perceivable through vision; and the other is invisible but integral part of that thing. Therefore, this Root signifies any apparent thing inseparable from a thing not equally apparent so that when one perceives the former he perceives the other to a certain extent which he cannot otherwise perceive

='Symbol'?

This is the visual side of learning knowledge. The other source of knowing and perceiving things is verbal. When the creator of a thing who knows absolutely the visible and invisible aspect of that thing verbally narrates about that thing, such verbal statement is " " in the true sense of the word.

and this one ='Letter/s'?

salaam

noshirk

They are the part of the Miscellany of Grand Qur'aan.

Moreover, the fact remains that We did give you the Messenger Seven distinctly elaborative Aa'ya'at-Verbal Unitary Passages selected-excepted from the Binary-Symmetrical-analogous Miscellany.

Moreover, it also remains a certain fact that We have given the Grand Qur'aan to you the Messenger .

Word by Word analysis of 1587

Salaam Mazhar
word Mathani is used only two times

1587 And We have given you seven of the dual (mathani), and the great Qur'an.
3923 God has sent down the best narrative, a Book that is similar, dual(mathania). The skins of those who are concerned towards their Lord shiver from it, then their skins and their hearts soften up to the remembrance of God. Such is the guidance of God; He guides with it whoever He wills. And for whoever God misguides, then none can guide him.

so we have not to be misguided by mysterious senses.
Mathania seems to me to mean double meaning or different levels or understanding.

Concerning the number 7, used also for the the 7 skies, it seems that he have also meaning of underteminate number.
this meaning seems to appears here
6512 God who has created seven heavens and of earths like that (mithlahonna); the command is sent down between them; that you may know that God is capable of all things, and that God has encompassed all things with His knowledge.

so seven pairs can be totally different meaning. A mouthanna meaning as we would say.
15-87 could then mean we gave you multiple exemples with different meanings and the great quran.

Peace

farida

Salaam Mazhar
word Mathani is used only two times

1587 And We have given you seven of the dual (mathani), and the great Qur'an.
3923 God has sent down the best narrative, a Book that is similar, dual(mathania). The skins of those who are concerned towards their Lord shiver from it, then their skins and their hearts soften up to the remembrance of God. Such is the guidance of God; He guides with it whoever He wills. And for whoever God misguides, then none can guide him.

so we have not to be misguided by mysterious senses.
Mathania seems to me to mean double meaning or different levels or understanding.

Concerning the number 7, used also for the the 7 skies, it seems that he have also meaning of underteminate number.
this meaning seems to appears here
6512 God who has created seven heavens and of earths like that (mithlahonna); the command is sent down between them; that you may know that God is capable of all things, and that God has encompassed all things with His knowledge.

so seven pairs can be totally different meaning. A mouthanna meaning as we would say.
15-87 could then mean we gave you multiple exemples with different meanings and the great quran.

Peace

salaam

Absolutely and unless we study the above in al-kitaab we are only giving our own opinion or understanding.
salaam

marifhaq

My Dear noshirk and Farida,AOA
You are right,the word "Mathani" is mentioned at two places,but then why are you suggesting a third place ,that is 6512 here the word used is "Mathalhonna" which means "like this" the basic word is "mathal" which means "like".
But in "7 oft repeated ayaats" this word "mathal" is not involved,but another word "thani" is used ,and thani means "second" 2nd or it may also mean "the other one".
may some one help if I am wrong?thanks

noshirk

salaam

Absolutely and unless we study the above in al-kitaab we are only giving our own opinion or understanding.
salaam

Salaam sister

Totally agree.
Quran is sealed by God and Muhammad was the sealer.
that's a mathania.
Sense 1 Words of God are protected against change. No one can add or remove nothing. That's a promise of God. That's Kalimatou ALLAH
Sense 2 Sense of words are sealed. God promised us that he will himself explain it to us (bayan ). That mean that Quran is the best dictionnary for Quran. By confronting verses and uses of words by Allah himslef, we can understand what he meant and nobody can change that sense and try to explain us that a word mean another thing. That's a promise of God. That's Kalimatou ALLAH

Concerning El Fatiha, if it is there, then God Wanted it to be there.
However, when we reads it, it is clear that it is not God that is speaking. He is showing us how to pray him. It is the preface of this His book.
We have to recognize him as the lord of universe, the creator, the judge in judgment day, the only one who we worhip and the only one to who we should ask help. After that, we have to ask him to explain us the right path in order to avoid the path of lost people and the path of whose he is angry of them.

God is beginning His message to us with verse 2-2; presenting us his totally sealed book.
NO DOUBTS TO HAVE. IT IS FROM HIM. A GUIDANCE FOR US. 100% GUARANTED.
That's Kalimatou Allah.

No need to see old papers under the ground.
Even without the guaranty, i would have recognized by my heart that that's words as part of the message.

Question Who are the lost and who are those who God is angry of them ?
Peace

noshirk

My Dear noshirk and Farida,AOA
You are right,the word "Mathani" is mentioned at two places,but then why are you suggesting a third place ,that is 6512 here the word used is "Mathalhonna" which means "like this" the basic word is "mathal" which means "like".
But in "7 oft repeated ayaats" this word "mathal" is not involved,but another word "thani" is used ,and thani means "second" 2nd or it may also mean "the other one".
may some one help if I am wrong?thanks

Salaam

Mathal means like or similar or example. I mentionned 65-12 only to notice that 7 can be used in a sense of underminate number. I have read in book of Maurice Bucaille that seven meant underminate number in ancient cultures. 7 would be the "x" of ancients (it is to verify).

Now, as you noticed, it is true that there is a similarity between MATHAL, MOUTHANNA, MOUTHALLATH...

Peace

farida

Salaam sister

Totally agree.
Quran is sealed by God and Muhammad was the sealer.
that's a mathania.
Sense 1 Words of God are protected against change. No one can add or remove nothing. That's a promise of God. That's Kalimatou ALLAH
Sense 2 Sense of words are sealed. God promised us that he will himself explain it to us (bayan ). That mean that Quran is the best dictionnary for Quran. By confronting verses and uses of words by Allah himslef, we can understand what he meant and nobody can change that sense and try to explain us that a word mean another thing. That's a promise of God. That's Kalimatou ALLAH

Concerning El Fatiha, if it is there, then God Wanted it to be there.
However, when we reads it, it is clear that it is not God that is speaking. He is showing us how to pray him. It is the preface of this His book.
We have to recognize him as the lord of universe, the creator, the judge in judgment day, the only one who we worhip and the only one to who we should ask help. After that, we have to ask him to explain us the right path in order to avoid the path of lost people and the path of whose he is angry of them.

God is beginning His message to us with verse 2-2; presenting us his totally sealed book.
NO DOUBTS TO HAVE. IT IS FROM HIM. A GUIDANCE FOR US. 100% GUARANTED.
That's Kalimatou Allah.

No need to see old papers under the ground.
Even without the guaranty, i would have recognized by my heart that that's words as part of the message.

Peace

salaam brother

Couldn't agree with you more. As for Question Who are the lost and who are those who God is angry of them ?
allaahu "alim, we can only try our best to increase our knowledge and seek guidance from ALLAAH and live within the frame work given to us in the Quran.

Peace

GODsubmitter

My Dear GODsubmitter,
I just read,your reply to my posting titled as above.You wrote that was quran assembled after a century.No it was not so,quran was there,but without sura fatiha as sura one.Then about a century later,scholars of that time found that this beautiful sura must be a part of quran,and be placed at the beginning of quran.
just google,"quran complex" and go to quran pictures and see yourself that many older qurans start with sura baqar.And read in present quran that indicates that "quran and 7 oft repeated ayaats" are two different items,one is not included into other.
And feel free to ask anything which is still not clear.Thanks

Thank you for your anwser.

But I thought that Qur'an "came down" full and complete with the first sura AlFatiha included as the miracle of code 19 shows that it is a proof that it is from God !

noshirk

Dear All,Salam
If you go to Islamic awareness and then to "Sana Quran",you can see that qurans written during 1st century Hijrah do not have sura fatiha.Also go to "quran Complex"in Saudi Arabia,I mean their SITE on internet,you can see pictures of many qurans,of course older qurans,pictures show only the first page,and you will see that many qurans start with sura baqar the 2nd sura now known ti us starting with "alif lam meem".
Also present quran says,"quran and seven oft repeated ayats"this also tells us that quran and seven ayats are two different writtings.But after the firsst century people added this sura as a part of quran perhaps because of its repeating in prayers.Thanks.

Salaam marifhaq
My first reaction when i have read your post is rejection. for me it was impossible that something not given by God was included in Quran.

However when i read again the ayats 11 to 17 and 1587, it seems possible to me that you are partially right

1587 And We have given you seven of the dual, and the great Qur'an.

it is clear, from the verse, that the seven pairs are given by God himself. They are so also revealed by GOD.
However, it seems also, from 1587, that they are not Part of what God consider as Quran.

When we read 11 to 17, it is clear that they are words to put in mount of someone speaking to God.
We can then understand them as a kind of preface of Muhammad.
This can explain why Bismillah is included in the sourate. Bismillah is a sentence that a rassool has to say (in the name of my sender....).
Bismillah seems to be separated in other sourates.
Bismillah is not part of Quran since God cannot says "in name of myself".
However Bismillah is also word selected by God. Bismillah is clearly validated as words choosen by God tu put in mouth of who is to pronunce words of God by verse 2730

my own conclusion is then Fatiha is composed of words choosen for us by God, they have been revelated with quran, they are not part of what God call quran but part of what we should call quran. Fatiha is then both part and not part of Quran.

it is a bit complicated but i think that we have to learn how to deal with multiple levels of understanding

Peace

noshirk

salaam brother

Couldn't agree with you more. As for Question Who are the lost and who are those who God is angry of them ?
allaahu "alim, we can only try our best to increase our knowledge and seek guidance from ALLAAH and live within the frame work given to us in the Quran.

Peace

Salaam sister

i will give you the interpretation of Jinn/cheikh Dukhani.

Lost are those who reject words of God. They are atheists. They don't even know why they are here.
Those whose God is angry with them are those who know why they are here but corrupt and pollute the message/Amana. It is the idolaters/moshrikoun. Shirk is the only thing that God will note forgive.

Whe can also find this classification in the first verses of sourate 2 , from 22 to 220

Notice also that opposition between Muslim (who receive) and Mo'omin (who take care of what he receive) confort this understanding.
Really, mathania are multiple is quran.

and, as you said, Allah aalam.

Peace

Mazhar

salaam Mazhar

Thank you very much for detailing from the root word explanation of " " If I were to sum up what you said above in one word would it be
='Sign'?

='Symbol'?
and this one ='Letter/s'?

salaam

Sign

thing representing something else something that indicates or expresses the existence of something else not immediately apparent
a sign of wealth
something conveying idea an action or gesture used to convey an idea, information, a wish, or a command
His kick under the table was a sign that we should leave.
advertising notice a publicly displayed structure carrying lettering or designs intended to advertise a business or product, e.g. a painted board or neon lights
information notice a publicly displayed notice or board bearing directions, instructions, or warnings
a highway sign
indication something that indicates the presence of something or somebody
no sign of life
trace left by animal a trace of a wild animal, e.g. the droppings, scent, or footprints
omen something interpreted as being an omen
astrology division of zodiac any one of the 12 equal parts into which the zodiac is divided, each represented by a symbol
medicine evidence of disease an indication of the presence of a disease or disorder, especially one observed by a doctor but not apparent to the patient
Fever is a sign of an infection.
mathematics logic symbol used in math or logic a symbol indicating an operation or relation in mathematics or logic
the plus sign
music musical notation symbol a symbol used in musical notation
communication Same as sign language

verb (past and past participle signed, present participle sign?ing, 3rd person present singular signs)

vti write name to write a signature on something
vti approve document to affirm or approve a document formally by affixing a signature or seal
sign a bill into law
vti hire somebody to engage the services of somebody by written agreement
The college signed him to coach the team.
vi agree to take job to agree to be hired by writing a signature on a contract
vti signal information to convey information using a signal or signals
vt portend something to be an omen of something to come
That signs danger.
vti communication communicate in sign language to use sign language to communicate a message
She signed "yes."
vt christianity give blessing to somebody to bless somebody or something by making the sign of the cross
..............

Qur'aan is the Miscellany of Aayaat. And they convey verbal message. It is "Kalam" of Allah the Exalted. And Kalam is not merely that what is denoted by English word sign or sign language. Sign signifies communication by gestures as oppesed to written or spoken language. Qur'aan is a communication through written language.

Miscellany of Grand Qur'aan---Format and Organization

farida

Sign

thing representing something else something that indicates or expresses the existence of something else not immediately apparent
a sign of wealth
something conveying idea an action or gesture used to convey an idea, information, a wish, or a command
His kick under the table was a sign that we should leave.
advertising notice a publicly displayed structure carrying lettering or designs intended to advertise a business or product, e.g. a painted board or neon lights
information notice a publicly displayed notice or board bearing directions, instructions, or warnings
a highway sign
indication something that indicates the presence of something or somebody
no sign of life
trace left by animal a trace of a wild animal, e.g. the droppings, scent, or footprints
omen something interpreted as being an omen
astrology division of zodiac any one of the 12 equal parts into which the zodiac is divided, each represented by a symbol
medicine evidence of disease an indication of the presence of a disease or disorder, especially one observed by a doctor but not apparent to the patient
Fever is a sign of an infection.
mathematics logic symbol used in math or logic a symbol indicating an operation or relation in mathematics or logic
the plus sign
music musical notation symbol a symbol used in musical notation
communication Same as sign language

verb (past and past participle signed, present participle sign?ing, 3rd person present singular signs)

vti write name to write a signature on something
vti approve document to affirm or approve a document formally by affixing a signature or seal
sign a bill into law
vti hire somebody to engage the services of somebody by written agreement
The college signed him to coach the team.
vi agree to take job to agree to be hired by writing a signature on a contract
vti signal information to convey information using a signal or signals
vt portend something to be an omen of something to come
That signs danger.
vti communication communicate in sign language to use sign language to communicate a message
She signed "yes."
vt christianity give blessing to somebody to bless somebody or something by making the sign of the cross
..............

Qur'aan is the Miscellany of Aayaat. And they convey verbal message. It is "Kalam" of Allah the Exalted. And Kalam is not merely that what is denoted by English word sign or sign language. Sign signifies communication by gestures as oppesed to written or spoken language. Qur'aan is a communication through written language.

salaam Mazhar

I already wrote this in my reply #3 above, which more or less sums up what you're saying above;
You can not make the deaf to hear; however you can teach them to read, using symbols/sign language.
You can not make a blind person to see, yet you can enable him to read, using his fingers to read the signs, symbols (aayaat)in the Braille script

Miscellany of Grand Qur'aan---Format and Organization

Before I go further I am pasting one initial sentence from your link above;
We have not neglected mention a relevant thing in the Book-Grand Qur'aan

I am unable to copy and paste the verse you have there in Arabic. Please look at your link and tell me where does it say, in the Arabic version Grand Qur'aan???

Why have you inserted what is your understanding? You apply the same pattern in this link. If you want me to paste one sentence after the other, to show you how you are twisting the words according to what you understand, I can do that, it's not a problem.
salaam

GODsubmitter

Salaam marifhaq
My first reaction when i have read your post is rejection. for me it was impossible that something not given by God was included in Quran.

However when i read again the ayats 11 to 17 and 1587, it seems possible to me that you are partially right

1587 And We have given you seven of the dual, and the great Qur'an.

it is clear, from the verse, that the seven pairs are given by God himself. They are so also revealed by GOD.
However, it seems also, from 1587, that they are not Part of what God consider as Quran.

When we read 11 to 17, it is clear that they are words to put in mount of someone speaking to God.
We can then understand them as a kind of preface of Muhammad.
This can explain why Bismillah is included in the sourate. Bismillah is a sentence that a rassool has to say (in the name of my sender....).
Bismillah seems to be separated in other sourates.
Bismillah is not part of Quran since God cannot says "in name of myself".
However Bismillah is also word selected by God. Bismillah is clearly validated as words choosen by God tu put in mouth of who is to pronunce words of God by verse 2730

my own conclusion is then Fatiha is composed of words choosen for us by God, they have been revelated with quran, they are not part of what God call quran but part of what we should call quran. Fatiha is then both part and not part of Quran.

it is a bit complicated but i think that we have to learn how to deal with multiple levels of understanding

Peace

Thank you @noshirk!

You are fantastic @noshirk!

God bless you and reward you!!!

Love

sun

Mazhar

salaam Mazhar

I already wrote this in my reply #3 above, which more or less sums up what you're saying above;
You can not make the deaf to hear; however you can teach them to read, using symbols/sign language.
You can not make a blind person to see, yet you can enable him to read, using his fingers to read the signs, symbols (aayaat)in the Braille script
Before I go further I am pasting one initial sentence from your link above;
We have not neglected mention a relevant thing in the Book-Grand Qur'aan

I am unable to copy and paste the verse you have there in Arabic. Please look at your link and tell me where does it say, in the Arabic version Grand Qur'aan???

Why have you inserted what is your understanding? You apply the same pattern in this link. If you want me to paste one sentence after the other, to show you how you are twisting the words according to what you understand, I can do that, it's not a problem.
salaam

Salamun alaiki,

You can make a deaf man listen when he is watching you and does not turn back on his heels.

He gets the verbal message.

You referred this part of the Ayah

http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/006.%20Al%20Anaam/temp%2002%206.038a.gif

In Arabic, nouns in default state are always indefinite. Definite article is fixed on a noun in a text to refer to only that object which is or has become familiar to both the speaker and the reader. "The Book" even in English conveys nothing meaningful unless it is used in the sentence and will refer only to a particular book which is known both to the speaker and the reader. "We have not neglected mention a relevant thing in the Book" will be an incomplete sentence-lacking information for the reader when read in isolation because a question can be raised as to which particular book the speaker is trying to refer to. Because of "Al" if "the Book" is omitted in the translation and instead only Grand Qur'aan is placed therein, it would be the perfect translation of Alkitabi.

farida

Salaam sister

i will give you the interpretation of Jinn/cheikh Dukhani.

Lost are those who reject words of God. They are atheists. They don't even know why they are here.
Those whose God is angry with them are those who know why they are here but corrupt and pollute the message/Amana.

Peace

salaam brother

I understand that you volunteered to given me the interpretation of Jinn/cheikh Dukhani jinn, as the lost ones. However, in the Qur?aan I find several verses where Jinn, along with mankind, are named lost ones, so why single out the Jinn as lost ones?

7179] Sahih International
And We have certainly created for Hell many of the jinn and mankind. They have hearts with which they do not understand, they have eyes with which they do not see, and they have ears with which they do not hear. Those are like livestock; rather, they are more astray. It is they who are the heedless.

Then you mention atheists as being among them, but I have met very decent and honest atheists, who are only confused by those that claim to know why they are here. But these, so called guided ones, from among the Jews and Muslims as well as Christains and Hindus have corrupted and polluted the message/ Amana.
It is because of these, , that many atheists prefer to simply listen to their conscienses which, I tell them to see as the ruh/chip of ALLAAH, placed in the human brain to guide them.

Whe can also find this classification in the first verses of sourate 2 , from 22 to 220

Notice also that opposition between Muslim (who receive) and Mo'omin (who take care of what he receive) confort this understanding.
Really, mathania are multiple is quran.

and, as you said, Allah aalam.
Sahih International
And thus We have made for every prophet an enemy - devils from mankind and jinn, inspiring to one another decorative speech in delusion. But if your Lord had willed, they would not have done it, so leave them and that which they invent.

It is the idolaters/moshrikoun. Shirk is the only thing that God will note forgive.

Provided we understand what is Shirk.
ALLAAHU "alim
salaam

farida

Salamun alaiki,

You can make a deaf man listen when he is watching you and does not turn back on his heels.

He gets the verbal message.

salaam Mazhar

What about this mathania;

Sahih International
Deaf, dumb and blind - so they will not return .

Sahih International
Allah has set a seal upon their hearts and upon their hearing, and over their vision is a veil. And for them is a great punishment

You referred this part of the Ayah

http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/006.%20Al%20Anaam/temp%2002%206.038a.gif

In Arabic, nouns in default state are always indefinite. Definite article is fixed on a noun in a text to refer to only that object which is or has become familiar to both the speaker and the reader. "The Book" even in English conveys nothing meaningful unless it is used in the sentence and will refer only to a particular book which is known both to the speaker and the reader. "We have not neglected mention a relevant thing in the Book" will be an incomplete sentence-lacking information for the reader when read in isolation because a question can be raised as to which particular book the speaker is trying to refer to. Because of "Al" if "the Book" is omitted in the translation and instead only Grand Qur'aan is placed therein, it would be the perfect translation of Alkitabi.

If you can not differentiate between al-Qur'aan and al-Kitaab and then go on to give a long explanation of grammar rules to justify it as the perfect translation of Alkitabi by adding words, which are not there in the verses of the Qur'aan, then what can I say, except you know very well what you are doing.

Sahih International
And indeed, there is among them a party who alter the Scripture with their tongues so you may think it is from the Scripture, but it is not from the Scripture. And they say, "This is from Allah," but it is not from Allah. And they speak untruth about Allah while they know

salaam

Mazhar

If you can not differentiate between al-Qur'aan and al-Kitaab and then go on to give a long explanation of grammar rules to justify it as the perfect translation of Alkitabi by adding words, which are not there in the verses of the Qur'aan, then what can I say, except you know very well what you are doing.

There were no grammar rules but just the most fundamental information about Nouns in any language of the world. Al prefixed to Kitaab denotes a specific-particularized book. One has to name it, show it or let the reader perceive it. If one cant do it then he/he is just wandering cluless as to which book he is referring. Allah the Exalted has made us see "The Book" transcribed in Arabic and that is none else but the Grand Qur'aan. And after Qur'aan the classification of books is only the Grand Qur'aan and books other than Qur'aan.