Completeness of Words of God and proofs of proofs of proofs ....
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Salaam
Einstein said "The eternal mystery of the world is its comprehensibility ... The fact that it is comprehensible is a miracle"
For Einstein, the fact that Universe can explain itself to us is a miracle.
For many of us, the fact that Quran can explain itself to us is a miracle.Both books of Ayats of God have the property of Miraculous completeness.
Both Scientists have to believe in that. They have no proof of that. The belief in word of God completeness is not more stupid in Quranic studies than in scientific studies.4153 We will show them Our signs in the horizons, and within themselves, until it becomes clear to them that this is the truth. Is it not enough that your Lord is witness over all things?
That is words of God duality of matter/spirit , bilogical human/spiritual human. A mathania (only for farida)
Many scientists got the conviction that there is "a super intelligence" behind the universe. However they are afraid from priests of "the great nothing" who don't want them to pronounce the forbidden word "GOD". Quite all discoveries in science were made by men and women that were not afraid to pronounce that word.
Some scientists who believe in a "super intelligence" invented a new concept.
They call it Anthropic principle (http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropic_principle). In this concept, it is said, hiddenly, that universe knew there will be humans who will understand it.
But priests of the great nothing don't like that principle.
When they are asked
who wrote it ? They respond "the great Nothing"
Why ? They respond the "great nothing" had no reason, no mind
How the great nothing can create all that ? they respond Chance.
Who created laws for that chance ? they respond chance.
Why every thing in universe obey to laws ? the respond chance.
Who can understand words of the Great nothing ? they respond our scientists and that the book of Ayats of the "great nothing" is only for them. It is their property.638 And there is not a creature on the earth, nor a bird that flies with its wings, except they belong to nations like you belong. We did not leave anything out of the KITAB; then to their Lord they will be gathered.
639 And those who deny Our revelations, they are deaf and dumb, in darkness. Whoever God wishes He misguides, and whoever He wishes He puts him on a straight path.Now we have two set of Ayats. Each of them has the miraculous property of completeness.
If one set need to be proven from the other set of Ayats then no set can claim completeness.
Completeness property will fall. Duality of matter and Spirit would fall.
Quran cannot be a proof if he needs a proof to show that it is a proof.1037 This Qur'an could not have been produced without God; it is to authenticate what is between his hands, and to give details of the Book in which there is no doubt, from the Lord of the worlds.
Many Muslims spent time to proof to ?non muslims? that God exists and that Quran is his book. Most of that ?proofs? that I studied are certainly falses. The remaining are doubtful.
All the proofs and so called miracles are already rejected by the ?Great nothing? worshippers and all who claim to be a God Worshippers but only through their ?cultural identity?.Let suppose that, one day, we will find, outside quran, a proof that God exists and that Quran is word of God.
What is the gain?
Don?t we see that all who are claiming that are following other books don?t want to believe in completeness of Quran. Really, what is the gain of proving quran outside quran ?
After the corssing of the see by Bani Israel, same people who saw a great proof, asked for another proof and whorshipped the calf after
4153 The people of the Book ask you to bring down to them a book from the heaven. They had asked Moses for even more than that, for they said "Show us God openly!" So the lightning strike took them for their wickedness. Yet they worshipped the calf even after clear signs had come to them; even so We forgave them; and gave Moses manifest proofs of authority.6104 "Visible signs have come to you from your Lord; so whoever can see, does so for himself, and whoever is blinded, will be such. I am not a watcher over you."
6105 It is thus that We dispatch the "ayats" and that they may say "You have studied," and We will make it clear for a people who knowNow. The question is Who needs a scientific proof That Quran is book of God ?
Response Who is not able to recognize the quran as book of God.
1512 It is such that We let it seep into the hearts of the criminals.
1513 They do not believe in it, while the way of the earlier generations has gone before.
1514 And if We opened for them a gate in the heaven and they were to continue ascending into it,
1515 They would have said "Our sight has been fogged. No, we are a people being bewitched!"What kind of Proof is an incontestable proof that Quran is Book of Good ?
67 And if We had sent down to you a book already written on paper, and they touched it with their own hands, then those who have rejected would say "This is but clear magic!"Who can understand the proof ?
1612 And He has commissioned for you the night and the day, and the sun and the moon, and the stars are commissioned by His command. In that are signs for a people who comprehend.
1667 And from the fruits of the palm trees and the grapes you make wine and a good provision. In that is a sign for a people who comprehend.
3024 And from His signs is that He shows you the lightning, giving you fear and hope, and He sends down water from the sky, and He revives the land with it after its death. In that are signs for a people who comprehend.
822 The worst creatures with God are the deaf and dumb who do not comprehend.What does mean believe if we had a incontestable proof ? What is the merit ? The game should then end.
68 And they said "If only an angel were sent down to him?" But if We had sent down an angel, the matter would be settled, then they would no longer be respited.Whatever be the proof that would prove that quran is word of God, i gave arguments "scientific" unbelievers can use to prove that quran is not word of God.
Whatever be the proof that would prove that quran is word of God, game should end. It would be the judgement day and it would be no need for the proof.
Whatever be the proof that would prove that quran is word of God, proof has to be proven by a proof, the proof of the proof has to be proven by a proof and so on. Only a belief can stop the infinite recursion. Why proof a believe if we have to believe a proof. Proof and Belief is another kind of duality that cannot mix.OK, OK, OK OK.
Let suppose we find a proof that need no proof. A miraculous proof that all people on the earth can understand and accept.
How to prove that the God of that proof has no God over him and that the God of that proof is not only an intermediate GOD ?Meanwhile, many people will spent time for something they will never find forgetting, perhaps, the most important thing.
I have to stop now since i am no more sure to understand all what i am writing.
Sorry for the headache.Peace
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Thank you for the post and the important meditation and thinking.
peace
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Thank you GODSubmitter
The post i wrote is difficult to handle for people not used to handle mathematical reasoning.
I will add some thinking and sorry for the headache.
Completeness of a set of Words is not an easy matter to obtain. It implies also that we can find all responses to the "spirituals" questions.One of the corollaries of that completeness is that Muhammad has no need of his own hadiths to preach islam.
2532 And those who rejected said "If only the Qur'an was sent down to him in one go!" It was done as such so We could strengthen your heart with it, and We arranged (tartil) it accordingly.
2533 And for every example they come to you with, We bring you the truth and the best explanation.So if Muhammad used Hadiths he would have contradicted Quran completeness.
Note also that 2533 explains that facts are just explanation for examples to understand Quran and strengthen Heart of Muhammad. Not the reverse.
So, another corollary of completness is that all science of Asbab ol Nouzoul (reason of revelation) is 100% total bullshits.
(it is very important to note that expression "If only the Qur'an was sent down to him in one go!" is putted in mounth of who rejected. It is then an "who reject understanding"Even if hadiths were true and non contradictory they would have contradicted the claim of completness of Quran done by quran.
It is totally impossible, in the completeness claim, for Muhammad to use his own Hadiths to teach islam. Totally impossible.
Not only Completeness claim exclude all hadiths (even true ones) from Deen of God but also is impossible for any of them to pretend explain Quran.
Moreover, each hadith who pretend explain quran commit the sin to reduce meaning of a verse to what the hadith claim482 Do they not reflect on the Qur'an? If it was from any other than God they would have found in it many a discrepancy.
In mathematics, iti s what we call an absurd reasoning (sorry if it is bad translated in english).
The argument given by God is very interestingIt implies also that even nowadays, with all the knowledge accumulated by humans, nobody can write a book and Claim I am a God or God transmitted it to me.
When Newtow discovered gravity, Einstain came after and said it is false.
When Einstein dicovered Relativity, quantum mechanics came and said it is probably false.
Until nowadays, we don't know the definitive composition of Matter and don't know how universe will end with certainty.Even nowadays, nobody can write a book and claim "it is from God" and be sure that it will not be contradicted.
in the same matter,
Even nowadays, nobody can write a book and claim "that is the definitive story of what happened to the prophets that cannot be contradicted".Nowadays, there is people who are claiming such a thing. New religions and sects are appearing. They all will be contradicted if not yet done.
this leads to this verse
1851 I did not make them witness the creation of the heavens and the earth, nor the creation of themselves. Nor do I take the misleaders as helpers.I a misleader were present, he would have been able to write a book uncontradictable and claim I am God or sended by him.
This reasonning also leads to the deduction that Satan cannot be an "immortal" entity.
In this complex french article based on quran (http//nawaat.org/portail/2012/12/05/ibadat-el-chouyoukhs-6-anges-jinns-demons-et-satan/) the autor claimed that Ibliss is died and only his descent (jinns) are present with us. He claimed also that it is only one of his descent who were prensent in the tree episode with adam and not Ibliss himself.if Satan were "alive" and immortal, he would be able to write a book and claim "i am the God you cannot contradicts and this is my laws".
So God and eventually his truthfull followers (malaika/angels) should be the only ones who knows the true truth. Only them can Testify for what they have seen.
Not only Ibliss died but also Jinns should be mortals. Satan cannot exists.
(NoteThe theory that claims thats Jinn = Human imagination ( or a part) , a kind of mix of Rouh from God and Chayt away from God seems the more coherent to me).1788 Say "If all mankind and the Jinn were to gather to bring a Qur'an like this, they could not come with its like, even if they were helping one another."
and this is still true nowadays.The conclusion is
The eternal "non many discrepancy defy" is the only way to prove that Quran is Book of God.
(please note that sometimes, the reasoning behing the proof is false or based on falses assumptions. So false proofs can prove that truth is false and Quran can then be contradicted by false theories that are only best teomporary theories).
Corrollary Humanity will never detain the true truth that will permit them to write a "non many discrepancy defying" book.
139 The Knower of the unseen/unknown (Ghaib) and the testimony/seen (chahada), the Great, the Most High.673 And He is the One who has created the heavens and the earth with the truth, and the day He says "Be," then it is! His saying is truth; and to Him is the sovereignty the Day the trumpet is blown. Knower of the unseen and the seen; He is the Wise, the knower/informed (Khabir)
Another conclusion, a very integrist one is
Whoever try to explain something in islam without being able to put sustaining ayats is breaking completeness claim and is committing a sin.Peace
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Salaam
Einstein said "The eternal mystery of the world is its comprehensibility ... The fact that it is comprehensible is a miracle"
For Einstein, the fact that Universe can explain itself to us is a miracle.
For many of us, the fact that Quran can explain itself to us is a miracle.It is not clear whether this was ever said by Einstein. He only said "One may say "the eternal mystery of the world is its comprehensibility."" which means he was quoting someone.
Both books of Ayats of God have the property of Miraculous completeness.
Both Scientists have to believe in that. They have no proof of that. The belief in word of God completeness is not more stupid in Quranic studies than in scientific studies.Could you please explain this? "Both scientists"? Scientists believe in something? Scientists are not ultimately concerned with proof. What word of what god in what scientific studies?
Am I misunderstanding something here?4153 We will show them Our signs in the horizons, and within themselves, until it becomes clear to them that this is the truth. Is it not enough that your Lord is witness over all things?
That is words of God duality of matter/spirit , bilogical human/spiritual human. A mathania (only for farida)
Maybe some time in the future?
Many scientists got the conviction that there is "a super intelligence" behind the universe. However they are afraid from priests of "the great nothing" who don't want them to pronounce the forbidden word "GOD". Quite all discoveries in science were made by men and women that were not afraid to pronounce that word.
Scientists are afraid of priests? Why? Do they carry machine guns? The word god or GOD is not forbidden, but of no concern to science. Science is a tool! A tool to analyse and describe the real world.
You are appealing to emotion and popularity. In the past everyone who professed to not believe was killed. So your argument fails badly.Some scientists who believe in a "super intelligence" invented a new concept.
They call it Anthropic principle (http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropic_principle). In this concept, it is said, hiddenly, that universe knew there will be humans who will understand it.
But priests of the great nothing don't like that principle.
When they are asked
who wrote it ? They respond "the great Nothing"
Why ? They respond the "great nothing" had no reason, no mind
How the great nothing can create all that ? they respond Chance.
Who created laws for that chance ? they respond chance.
Why every thing in universe obey to laws ? the respond chance.
Who can understand words of the Great nothing ? they respond our scientists and that the book of Ayats of the "great nothing" is only for them. It is their property.I think this is where I realise not to take any of this seriously.
I strongly suggest you take another look at what reality is and what scientists are demonstrating or saying and what some religious people say that scientists are saying. There seems to be a HUGE difference.
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Hi Everyone,
Again the issue of Religion and Science arises. I find these discussions interesting since I am a Scientist. I don't think this is the issue. The real issue is the atheists who have claimed to have legitimacy based on science. They are worse than any various group trying to convert to another religion. For thousands of years scientists have used science to learn "facts" about the universe. These "facts" were then used to show the wonderment of Allahs creation. But the current staunch atheists are saying "facts" are "truth". Until Darwin, Science and religion learned to get along with each other. Of course the Church would deny facts that are counter to scripture. But overall they accepted the facts. Islam has really never had this problem. Which is why during the Dark Ages of Europe, Islamic society flourished.
I think the proofs for Allah are everywhere and evidenced by science. Only these atheists such as Dawkins, etc. are making people of faith feel inferior. Their demeanor is one of "if you believe in God or Allah then you are stupid!" I find this offensive. I want Science and Religion to get along in harmony. I think the Quran promotes exactly this view.
Just my thoughts... scientifically speaking... lol
JewishDude
peace Salam, Shalom, Peace peace -
Again the issue of Religion and Science arises. I find these discussions interesting since I am a Scientist. I don't think this is the issue. The real issue is the atheists who have claimed to have legitimacy based on science.
I don't actually know why, but as soon as someone claims "I am a scientist" I already have my doubts as to the veracity of any following claims.
Atheists claim to have "legitimacy based on science"?????? What???? All an atheist has is a lack of a belief. Hardly any atheist is a scientist. At least in my experience. Is there a requirement for legitimacy for an atheist now? Come on dude, please tell me you are making this up!
They are worse than any various group trying to convert to another religion.
Why would an atheist try and persuade a believer to change their religion? How can a non-believer convert any believer? And by whose judgement would that be worse and on what scale?
For thousands of years scientists have used science to learn "facts" about the universe. These "facts" were then used to show the wonderment of Allahs creation. But the current staunch atheists are saying "facts" are "truth".
I'm not trying to be difficult here, but can you show me something that is true and not a fact?
Until Darwin, Science and religion learned to get along with each other.
You are not real or writing satire here. You must be. Science and religion are opposites, which is why scientists were killed by various churches. The Catholic Pope waited until 1992 before accepting that Earth maybe rotated around the Sun after all. It was in 2000 that Saudi Arabian Grand Mufti Sheikh Ibn Baaz issued a fatwa asserting that Earth was flat and that the sun revolved around it.
Of course the Church would deny facts that are counter to scripture. But overall they accepted the facts. Islam has really never had this problem. Which is why during the Dark Ages of Europe, Islamic society flourished.
I think the proofs for Allah are everywhere and evidenced by science.
If you are so sure I am confident you can share some evidence and examples for this with us, instead of just making bold claims, right?
Only these atheists such as Dawkins, etc. are making people of faith feel inferior. Their demeanor is one of "if you believe in God or Allah then you are stupid!" I find this offensive. I want Science and Religion to get along in harmony. I think the Quran promotes exactly this view.
Can you explain or elaborate on how this can be achieved if religion is based on and relies on faith and science is based on facts? Why don't you, instead of making derogatory remarks about people, engaging in polemics and emotional pleading, provide some facts for a change?
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Could you please explain this? "Both scientists"? Scientists believe in something? Scientists are not ultimately concerned with proof. What word of what god in what scientific studies?
Salaam StopS
Yes true Scientists are all believers.
Let explain this.
Did einstein found relatitivity by chance or did he believed that there was a response to some questions he was asking himself about the universe ?
Every scientist , when he work to SEARCH an answer or an explanation for whatever fact, begin by the belief that there is a response.
All science is based on the believe that universe can explain itself, that there is a reason of each phenomenon.Why "scientist" are searching to unify laws for forces (gravity, nuclear forces...) if they don't BELIEVE there is a unique Law ?
If "scientists' who believe is such a law, find such a law, no doubts that who were not believieng in his existence will say that even if it exists there is no reason for its existence.
Only atheits believe that there is no reason for the reason of all the reasons.In a funny way, also, what we call demonstration or proof come always after the affirmation (then in state of belief) that we want to proove.
Now, how someone who don't believe in completeness (auto-explaning sense) can found something ?
Same reasoning can be applied to Quran. How someone, who don't believe in completeness of Quran can waste his time searching there answers ?Completeness of two set of Words of God (science and quran) implies that they are disjoint (independant). That is duality of Facts and belief and matter and spirit.
This leads us, that both universe and Quran can be understood only by those who believe in their completeness. Only those who BELIEVE that there is a response for their questions can waste time to search for the response. All science is consequence of Belief and in the beginning there is always a Belief.
We have to distinguish also between facts and theories. I will explain that by an example.
Many Atheists believe that "common origin of species" is a proof that God don't exists and that he made nothing in "creation of life".
Some believers believe that "common origin of species" is a proof that not only God exists but that he is also unique (why "chance for example created only one DNA in genetics ? Why chance didn't create two, three or twenty genetics systems if chance is chance as works by blind trying who can succeeds many times ?)Quite every fact can be used by the two sets of "believers" to explain their own beliefs.
It is why, dear StopS, i think it will be difficult for you and me to be agree. Since it seems that we have not the same set of beliefs, it will be difficult for us to interpret facts the same way.I would like to add something else.
The non "many contradiction defy through time" is important.
Let explain this by supposing that Quran pretended to be a scientific book and said clearly "Sun is a big sphere and earth is a little sphere turning around".
That is, in other words, that quran said something totaly opposed of the scientific belief of that time.
The first consequence of that claim is that scientist would be the first to reject Quran for scientific reasons and words of God would have faced huge difficulties to arrive to us.
The reasonning yealds to the funny constatation To prove that he is coherent with science, Quran has to affirm firstly something against the scientific belief of the time he was revealed. Since it would have been a schocking claim, Quran would have been asked to prove it, transforming Quran in a scientific Book. In fact, quran is asked to contradict all false scientifcs belief of that time and when something was already know as fact or even as simple hypothesis, and that Quran confirms it, then it would not be considered as a Miracle.Applied to our nowadays time, if Muhammad came in our era, he would have been asked by atheists and "scientists" to contradict "our science". If he do that, he will be rejected.
Debate with unbelievers have no end. The two sets of words of God should then be, again, totally separated because it is adressed to believers and unbelievers are not concerned.
Peace
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Salaam
Completeness and non contradiction defy has huge consequences.
We have seen that it implies that Ibliss should dies and that Jinns, whatever they be, cannot have more knowledge than us since "who knows more" can use his knowledge for bad uses such as claiming prophecy and things like that.Completeness of Quran implies that Quran respond to questions concerning quran (and not to others questions).
So, if there is no response in Quran, question don't concern Quran.
If there is a question concerning Quran then quran have to respond to it. If there is no response then the question should be a false question or an non interesting one(?). If there is only one response, then that is the reponse.Let see for example the question
"in wich order quran was revealed ?".
Many says that Quran don't respond to this question and claim that order of Quran was revealed in other books.
But the question can be false. That is quran was revealed one Shot and question have no sense.However the question can have another meaning
If revealed one shot, in wich order quran was teached ?
The only order can be either the actual order or another order hidden somewhere (by numerological code for example", it there is one).2532 And those who rejected said "If only the Qur'an was sent down to him in one go!" It was done as such so We could strengthen your heart with it, and We arranged (tartil) it accordingly.
2533 And for every example they come to you with, We bring you the truth and the best explanation.Completeness of Quran shoud respond to the very important question "To what logic correspond the actual order ?".
There is then another hypothesys
quran revealed one shot (see my post on 20 september 617) and teached by prophet in the order of his actuel arrangement.
This response respond two two question (wich order ? and why the actual order ?) and it seems to be the meaning of 25-32 and 25-33i remind that ""If only the Qur'an was sent down to him in one go!" is put in 2532 in mounth of unbelievers who never understand anyting
Allh knows best. Really
Peace -
Peace dear @noshirk,
here is an interesting video which talks about the same subject as you posed in this thread I think
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LVFzHU4fKc
It might seem somewhat tedious, but it explains some interesting facts for those who have enough patience to watch it till the end.
Shalom
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Peace dear @noshirk,
here is an interesting video which talks about the same subject as you posed in this thread I think
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LVFzHU4fKc
It might seem somewhat tedious, but it explains some interesting facts for those who have enough patience to watch it till the end.
Shalom
Salaam Godsubmitter
As you said, it is tedious.
However it is interesting to see problem exposed here from completeness point of view.if demonstration was true then we would conclude that there is a surplus of two verses in sourate 9.
Since Quran is complete, and since Quran dont says to us where, in sourate 19, the two verses were added, then demontration should be false (demonstration don't explain why, for example, we don't have to throw away verse 945 and verse 957).
Choosing the two verses 9-128 and 9-129 as the two added verses is based on Hadith, contradicting completeness of Quran.Now along with claim of completeness, there is claim of Quran that quran is sealed and protected.
Accepting the possibility that two verses were added would collapse a promise made by god in quran. if one promise can collapse then another promise can collapse. Thus completeness shut down again.Argument is thrown that God let two verses beeing added because he wanted to show us how Quran is protected by 19 code.
However, if the demonstration in the video was true, it would also be true if 9-128 and 9-129 were never there. So there is no need for God to let his message be corrupted to find miracles we would have been able to find if 9-128 end 9-129 were never there.Now, quran means lecture. There is different numeration according different versions. If numerotation differs, lecture is (quite) the same. So we can say that two qurans with two different numerotations are a same lecture. In this url (http//www.free-minds.org/sites/default/files/WhichQuran.pdf), we can see that with one of the warsh versions, number of verses, including verse 9-128 and 9-129 can be divided by 19. So claimants that 9-128 and 9129 should be removed have to make same demonstration with warsh version or demonstrate that numerotation of warh version is false.
However i recognize that existence of two versions (warsh and hafs) is a problem.
After studying (superficially) what is said in this video i will say that it is a non scientific video.
Numerologists always mixed numbers in all senses until they find what they want.
It is not a scientific method to change methods all the time. Statistically, each 19 essays, one fit. 19 Billions calculations yields surely to 1 billion miracles.
Even for the initials "miracle", 19'ers change method for differents set of initials.
A scientific claim should sound something like this " each time you have this configuration, you have that result".
I never saw such a claim in 19 code proofs.However, i think there is something true about 19 code. But not like Rashed Khalifa followers claim.
Even if i like to believe in 19 miracle, i am not yet convinced. Many of so called miracles of Quran are not miracles.Note i dont agree with traductions of 9128
9128 A messenger has come to you from yourselves (part 1), ???troubled over your deviation ??? (part 2), ???anxious over you (part 3) ???, towards the believers he is compassionate, merciful (part 4).i think that part 2,3,4 are relative to God and not to Muhammad. So for me, 9128 and 9-129 are not a tribute to muhammad as rashed khalifa claimed .
Peace
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Salaam StopS
Yes true Scientists are all believers.
Let explain this.
Did einstein found relatitivity by chance or did he believed that there was a response to some questions he was asking himself about the universe ?
Every scientist , when he work to SEARCH an answer or an explanation for whatever fact, begin by the belief that there is a response.
All science is based on the believe that universe can explain itself, that there is a reason of each phenomenon.Is there really a need for all this grandeur? NO! Einstein was curious. He saw a compass needle and wondered why it did what it did. He did not have a goal. Hardly any scientist has. A scientist is a person investigating why something is doing what it does and where does this come from. Einstein was not asking himself any grand questions about the Universe - he was curious whether light accelerating from a moving platform was faster than other light.
Only believers in a religion want to make us believe there is some merit in asking questions about the origins of the Universe and the purpose of life. Others don't care or wonder about this. Do you wonder how many neutrinos are passing through your body within a single minute? I doubt it. Yet some people do.
Why "scientist" are searching to unify laws for forces (gravity, nuclear forces...) if they don't BELIEVE there is a unique Law ?
You have this back-to-front or ass-about-face as we say. A scientist does not believe anything. You are interpreting the quest for an explanation as belief and that is fundamentally wrong. Why don't you look up the function and role of science?
It is a tool. Just like a hammer. Do you ever question the world view of a hammer? Do you question the intentions of a carpenter? Why not? It's the same thing, after all.
If "scientists' who believe is such a law, find such a law, no doubts that who were not believieng in his existence will say that even if it exists there is no reason for its existence.
Only atheits believe that there is no reason for the reason of all the reasons.Oh my, no, not at all and definitely not! When there is a law science is no longer interested. Laws are boring. There is nothing you can do with them.
Newton did not discover gravity or invent it. He explained it.
Darwin did not invent or discover evolution. He explained it.In a funny way, also, what we call demonstration or proof come always after the affirmation (then in state of belief) that we want to proove.
No! A scientist does not initially set out to prove something. A scientist will look at a compass needle and wonder why it moves. Then he observes it moves by pointing in one direction. Does this scientist know what he will prove? No, because he does not know what magnetism is and that our planet has a magnetic core. He will find that out, document it, collect data, explain it and then try and falsify it and make predictions about what will happen if he changes something. THAT's how it works and not what you have constructed in your brain.
Now, how someone who don't believe in completeness (auto-explaning sense) can found something ?
Same reasoning can be applied to Quran. How someone, who don't believe in completeness of Quran can waste his time searching there answers ?Completeness of two set of Words of God (science and quran) implies that they are disjoint (independant). That is duality of Facts and belief and matter and spirit.
I'm not sure I understand this. I just know that you must NEVER mix the Koran with science. What happens if I have a magnet which always points to the magnetic North pole and the Koran says there is no magnetism? How do I reconcile the words in a book with reality? You tell me the optimal solution, please.
I don't know the answer to this.
We have to distinguish also between facts and theories. I will explain that by an example.
Many Atheists believe that "common origin of species" is a proof that God don't exists and that he made nothing in "creation of life".
Some believers believe that "common origin of species" is a proof that not only God exists but that he is also unique (why "chance for example created only one DNA in genetics ? Why chance didn't create two, three or twenty genetics systems if chance is chance as works by blind trying who can succeeds many times ?)Oops. I wish I had just 1 single dollar for every time I have heard this. I would be a very rich man. )
NO!
NO!
NO!Please., no! Please, please, please listen to me! An atheist is the opposite of a theist.
Theist. Atheist.
A theist believes there is evidence for the existence of a god. An atheist does not.
That is all. All. Finished. Tutti completo. No more. End of story.
If there is an atheist who believes something, it has nothing to do with atheism. Atheists disagree about everything. Except one single thing the lack of a belief for the evidence of the existence of a god. Everything else atheists disagree on. There is NO common belief in anything.
Evolution is a fact. It happens in nature. All the time. The "Theory of Evolution" is just the human explanation of what happens in nature regarding the change in species. Just like The "Theory of Gravity" explains gravity, The "Germ Theory" explains germs and the "Theory of Music" explains music.
NONE of this, nothing, silch, nada, has anything to do with the super-natural or any god. Evolution says NOTHING about a god. No science branch and no real scientist will ever try to investigate god. The origin of species is explaining nature, not god. Evolution is what happens when we observe and explain the changes in species and their development. NOT the origin of life itself!
The "creation of life" has NOTHING to do with the Theory of Evolution or the origin of species.
It has nothing to do with atheists or believers and it does not depend on chance. Oh boy, I wish people would at least try and understand this.....
Quite every fact can be used by the two sets of "believers" to explain their own beliefs.
It is why, dear StopS, i think it will be difficult for you and me to be agree. Since it seems that we have not the same set of beliefs, it will be difficult for us to interpret facts the same way.Yes, I am aware of that. Which is why I am trying to understand what you believe and why. I find that you have a whole lot of misconceptions and wrong information.
I would like to add something else.
The non "many contradiction defy through time" is important.
Let explain this by supposing that Quran pretended to be a scientific book and said clearly "Sun is a big sphere and earth is a little sphere turning around".
That is, in other words, that quran said something totaly opposed of the scientific belief of that time.
The first consequence of that claim is that scientist would be the first to reject Quran for scientific reasons and words of God would have faced huge difficulties to arrive to us.
The reasonning yealds to the funny constatation To prove that he is coherent with science, Quran has to affirm firstly something against the scientific belief of the time he was revealed. Since it would have been a schocking claim, Quran would have been asked to prove it, transforming Quran in a scientific Book. In fact, quran is asked to contradict all false scientifcs belief of that time and when something was already know as fact or even as simple hypothesis, and that Quran confirms it, then it would not be considered as a Miracle.Ok, so how do you explain that some people say the Koran contains scientific details on embryology which were only discovered recently?
No, that explanation does not satisfy me. Humans could navigate using the stars. They saw the stars and the planets in our solar system. They just lacked the explanation. A book showing the obvious and delivering the explanation would have been easier to accept when they could see what being claimed rather than some unseen stuff they would have needed a microscope and tiny cameras.
Applied to our nowadays time, if Muhammad came in our era, he would have been asked by atheists and "scientists" to contradict "our science". If he do that, he will be rejected.
Debate with unbelievers have no end. The two sets of words of God should then be, again, totally separated because it is adressed to believers and unbelievers are not concerned.
PeaceOh dear, no! Why do you think that? If a person came and showed us how to travel by-passing the current limitations we have regarding the speed of light, why would we reject that?
If he would come and claim we would have to face a meteorite and bow down 20 times so we would surely learn how to by-pass light when we are dead, then, yes, I could see some people asking deeper questions.So my plea is the same don't mix religion and science and let's discuss religion on its own and the basis for this belief. We will never find proof for the super-natural in a tool only investigating the natural.
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Thank you for your elaborated answer @noshirk.
I agree with you, I too do not tend to relay on mathematics only, specially because I cannot verify it for myself. I also think there is something about 19 there, but they can use it in so many ways.
I agree with you that there is a clear differentiation between speculation and philosophizing.Peace
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Hi everyone,
I think stops and noshirk missed the point of my argument. My argument is that science and religion can work together. Apparently they don't feel the two can work together. Recently atheists have been vehemently attacking religion and saying that religion is counter to science and that science is better. I am sorry if I added a dimension to the discussion that is unwelcome.
I would kindly request that people in this forum not attack others opinions. Disagree you may. But please be polite about it. If someone claims to be a scientist, then why should you doubt it?? If you are interested in proof that I am a scientist, I will say that I have published over 30 journal articles in top peer reviewed scientific journals, some of which are in mathematics, I am also an associate editor for a scientific journal and am a tenured professor. Please be kind with your responses as many people want an inviting forum to learn more about the Quran and true islam. By attacking others you encourage them to go to shi'a chat or ummah.com or other places.
Considerately,
JewishDude -
Hi everyone,
I think stops and noshirk missed the point of my argument. My argument is that science and religion can work together. Apparently they don't feel the two can work together. Recently atheists have been vehemently attacking religion and saying that religion is counter to science and that science is better. I am sorry if I added a dimension to the discussion that is unwelcome.
I would kindly request that people in this forum not attack others opinions. Disagree you may. But please be polite about it. If someone claims to be a scientist, then why should you doubt it?? If you are interested in proof that I am a scientist, I will say that I have published over 30 journal articles in top peer reviewed scientific journals, some of which are in mathematics, I am also an associate editor for a scientific journal and am a tenured professor. Please be kind with your responses as many people want an inviting forum to learn more about the Quran and true islam. By attacking others you encourage them to go to shi'a chat or ummah.com or other places.
Considerately,
JewishDudeSalaam JewishDude
Salaam to soul and spirit of StopS.Thank you for responses.
However i am more agree with stopS whom i BELIEVE he is BELIEVING to that he disagree with me on science.if science and religion can work together then the question his how ?
All what i say is that the two sets of words of GOD have completeness property.
Why universe explains itself ? why universe follow laws that seems respected everywhere in it ?
There is many questions like that for spirit/mind.It is funny to note that laws of universe are not objects we can touch. Scientifc laws are kind of "ideas/spirituality" that matter follows blindly. Proofs/explanations are also non matter objects. They have to be written and formulated for mind/spirit in a language.
StopS will never understand any scientic proof if it is written in chinese. He cannot think on that proof only because he don't undestand chinese.it is also funny to note that human mind is quite the only objects that don't follow laws. Even with the same set of Scientic Laws, StopS and me are disagreeing on the field on spirit and thinking. Debate between StopS and me is a no end debate.
For example, whe he says that "Evolution is a fact", i can enter with him in another no end debate. He is free to think that "no reason" mixed to "errors" can build something and that it is a fact. He is free to think that we cannot reproduce the fact because we cannot reproduce the same errors and that it is science. he is free to build theories based on chance with events following probabilistics laws with one time realization each. He is free to call science something that cannot predict nothing even not future species of new ants.
I am, on the other side, free to think that no reason and errors would produce things only like this
"kkkctyc duk*p^kaxnoix giu sdrsghfvyuglugyfeuhknbjhvbvfikkfvikf ?kn "I am saying also that belief come before proof.
StopS is playing on words.
for example, he said "Newton did not discover gravity or invent it. He explained it."
i can respond, Newton explained gravity because he BELIEVED there was an explanation.
if i wanted to joke, i would add that Newton believed in GOD, the reason of All reasons, the explanation of all explanations. So Newton is not a good example of how atheists make discoveries.Completeness of the two set of words, according to my opinion, leads to conclusion that there is no need to prove one set from the other.
Science deals with matter.
Quran deals with spirituality.
The two sets are disjoints.
Believers in quran can believe that the two sets are complementary and that the aim of each one is to explain that they have the same God and that he is unique.I don't know if StopS is a believer or not. However, we can note that he is opposing to me only because i says that completeness and property of aut-explanation of universe have a reason and that that reason is God. But i agree with him to say that science is independant from religion.
StopS and me are a good example of how same facts are differently interpreted by two different sets of Beliefs.Peace
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Recently atheists have been vehemently attacking religion
Please don't do that. It is unbecoming. Atheists I know have never attacked any religion. Atheists in general are asking more direct and challenging questions and some get frustrated when there are no answers or only lies.
and saying that religion is counter to science and that science is better.
I don't know a single atheist who does this. I hope this is just ignorance and not an intentional lie. Religion and science are opposites. None is worse or better than the other. Science has no opinion on religion and no religious book I know of ever mentions science. So why are you creating a divide and dichotomy that does not exist?
If someone claims to be a scientist, then why should you doubt it??
If someone tells me the opposite of what science is, I have no reason to believe anything. That's why I asked you questions you never answered.
If you are interested in proof that I am a scientist, I will say that I have published over 30 journal articles in top peer reviewed scientific journals, some of which are in mathematics, I am also an associate editor for a scientific journal and am a tenured professor. Please be kind with your responses as many people want an inviting forum to learn more about the Quran and true islam. By attacking others you encourage them to go to shi'a chat or ummah.com or other places.
Considerately,
JewishDudeDon't claim things which you don't live. How can a scientist tell me the total nonsense you wrote in your first comment? How can you claim that Profs Krauss or de Grasse Tyson are finding facts to "show the wonderment of Allahs creation"? That is blatantly untrue! If you were a scientist, you would not even use the word proof! Least of all in connection with a super-natural entity. You would know the difference between fact and truth.
Like I said a scientist doesn't brag I am a scientist or that papers are published in a "top" journal.
Sorry, I don't buy it.
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Salaam JewishDude
Salaam to soul and spirit of StopS.Thank you for responses.
However i am more agree with stopS whom i BELIEVE he is BELIEVING to that he disagree with me on science.if science and religion can work together then the question his how ?
All what i say is that the two sets of words of GOD have completeness property.
Why universe explains itself ? why universe follow laws that seems respected everywhere in it ?
There is many questions like that for spirit/mind.It is funny to note that laws of universe are not objects we can touch. Scientifc laws are kind of "ideas/spirituality" that matter follows blindly. Proofs/explanations are also non matter objects. They have to be written and formulated for mind/spirit in a language.
StopS will never understand any scientic proof if it is written in chinese. He cannot think on that proof only because he don't undestand chinese.it is also funny to note that human mind is quite the only objects that don't follow laws. Even with the same set of Scientic Laws, StopS and me are disagreeing on the field on spirit and thinking. Debate between StopS and me is a no end debate.
For example, whe he says that "Evolution is a fact", i can enter with him in another no end debate. He is free to think that "no reason" mixed to "errors" can build something and that it is a fact. He is free to think that we cannot reproduce the fact because we cannot reproduce the same errors and that it is science. he is free to build theories based on chance with events following probabilistics laws with one time realization each. He is free to call science something that cannot predict nothing even not future species of new ants.
I am, on the other side, free to think that no reason and errors would produce things only like this
"kkkctyc duk*p^kaxnoix giu sdrsghfvyuglugyfeuhknbjhvbvfikkfvikf ?kn "I am saying also that belief come before proof.
StopS is playing on words.
for example, he said "Newton did not discover gravity or invent it. He explained it."
i can respond, Newton explained gravity because he BELIEVED there was an explanation.
if i wanted to joke, i would add that Newton believed in GOD, the reason of All reasons, the explanation of all explanations. So Newton is not a good example of how atheists make discoveries.Completeness of the two set of words, according to my opinion, leads to conclusion that there is no need to prove one set from the other.
Science deals with matter.
Quran deals with spirituality.
The two sets are disjoints.
Believers in quran can believe that the two sets are complementary and that the aim of each one is to explain that they have the same God and that he is unique.I don't know if StopS is a believer or not. However, we can note that he is opposing to me only because i says that completeness and property of aut-explanation of universe have a reason and that that reason is God. But i agree with him to say that science is independant from religion.
StopS and me are a good example of how same facts are differently interpreted by two different sets of Beliefs.Peace
Thanks for the explanation, which holds a lot of truth and a genuine attempt to understand and reconcile.
Would we disagree on the role of a hammer? I doubt it. So why are we disagreeing on what science does or says or demonstrates or claims? Science is just a tool.
I don't think I would call what I am doing is playing on words. I just see these huge misconceptions and am thus trying to bring some understanding into the topic by providing definitions which can be used as a basis for a discussion.
Evolution is a fact and there is no debate possible. We can only debate the explanation. The same with gravity. It is a fact and not the belief that an apple always falls in the same, identical direction here on Earth led to the explanation and the subsequent laws. No, sorry, belief is not part of any scientific law. Oh and Newton was a theist. As was Darwin.
You don't understand science in general and evolution in particular. I have told you several times that chance does not enter into the equation - yet you faithfully bring it up again. Why?
If you don't understand something, why don't you ask?
I come here because I lack an understanding of Islam. So I test what I know and people correct me when I am wrong and I am grateful for that. And I try to apply what I learnt and don't make the same mistake over and over and again.Our discussion has however managed to teach both of us something
I have seen that the misconceptions are rooted very deep in the thinking and that my blunt approach of showing reality does not work.
You are starting to see not only that and the fact but also why religion and science don't mix.And we didn't even throw around any insults )
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Hi Everyone,
I appreciate everyones comments. What I am trying to say is that science and religion can work together. The Quran tells us
"contemplate the wonders of creation" (Quran 3191).
This is a direct reference to telling us to study science.
"Behold! In the creation of the heavens and the earth; in the alternation of the night and the day; in the sailing of ships through the ocean, for the profit of mankind; in the rain which Allah sends down from the skies, and the life which He gives therewith to an earth that is dead; in the beasts of all kinds that He scatters through the earth; in the change of the winds, and the clouds which they trail like their slaves between the sky and the earth; here indeed are Signs for a people that are wise" (Quran 2164)
These are where Allah is telling us "Proof" of his existence.
So since the Quran tells us to study science and encourages science, I think Science and Religion are compatible. The Quran tries to give many proofs. These two work together. Karl Gauss believed in God. Darwin believed in God. But they were looking for wonderment in creation.
On a side note I don't really care if you believe I am a Scientist or not. Everytime the phone rings and someone asks for my help on their scientific question is validation enough that I am a scientist. And most scientists are a bit arrogant.
Again I ask that personal attacks be kept to a minimum as it distracts from the conversation.
Just my two cents...
JewishDude
peace Salam, Shalom, Peace peace -
Evolution is a fact and there is no debate possible
Salaam StopS
I spent time to write you a response, and i hope you will spent time just to read it.It depends on what you call a fact. (please don't stop on bad translations since i learned science in French).
Dinosaures are facts. Australopithecus are facts. Homo erectus are facts.
The process by wich nature pass from one state to another is a theory.
Unless you take a species and let evolution work alone in laboratories, you cannot prove that "chance"+errors + selection is the only process that is working.Let's take an example.
suppose there is a nuclear war and human disappers from earth. Many centuries after, aliens come and find some "rests" of cars. They will remark that differents models are similar and that some models are more developped than other. they will then set an "evolutionnary" diagram of cars and claim there is relation between cars and that is logical to suppose they descent from each others. These are facts.
Now, since they see ne engineers in earth, some of them can imagine that a specie tried may cars by errors and each time they select the best one.
That's a theory.
They can else believe, until they find and human fossile, that the intelligent specie is the monks. That's a theory.
It is also possible that an alien engeneer declares " NO. There is conception there. I think there was engeneers on earth". That is also a theory since he found no engeneer around.
So another alien archeologist came and found plans of cars like our geneticians find DNA genetics plan.
But, between aliens, there is Atheist/priests who says that God gave intelligence only to aliens.
Some Aliens atheits then will think that plans of cars descent from each other. They will search for a mechanism that transform plans in cars.
Others Alien archeologist discover then rest of Factories. They found the searched mechanism.
But from where appeared mechanisms ?
Others Aliens archeologists come and discover olders factories. So factories descent from each others will says aliens.No need to continue.
The only facts in Evolution are fossiles and DNA. The story around is only a theory and i can find another theory that explains the same facts and put there a great conceptor because i am used to think that were there is plans there is a planner and when there is concepton, there is conceptor.But debate has no end.
I already tried to put scientifc arguments in front of evolutionists. I never succeeded to convince because our set of beliefs are totally differents even if we have the same set of facts and that we live in the same earth.
For example, hands and foots don't descent from each other. They have different plans but result look same. How to explain that with errors and selection ?You don't understand science in general and evolution in particular. I have told you several times that chance does not enter into the equation - yet you faithfully bring it up again. Why?
If you don't understand something, why don't you ask?
That is a belief. You don't know who i am but you have deduced that since i believe in quran and i have a different view than you in science then i should surely have less knowledge from you in science.
I come here because I lack an understanding of Islam. So I test what I know and people correct me when I am wrong and I am grateful for that. And I try to apply what I learnt and don't make the same mistake over and over and again.
it is fantastic. At least, we have a domain where you can admit that i know more that you.
I can then use islam to show you errors you can make by having false system of beliefs.My question what do you think happens to a believer/follower/submitter/Muslim who lives a quiet life as a maths teacher, believes a god, the Islamic god and creator, exists and is responsible for everything - yet does not pray, does not pay anything to anybody, does not fast and never travels to Mecca?
That is what i call a question totally based on false beliefs.
Let's analyse. Now, in islam, we can suppose that Quran are islamic facts and that Hadiths and Books of scholars are theories we are not sure they are true or false.
1-who lives a quiet life as a maths teacher no problems
2- believes a god, the Islamic god and creator good thing
3- yet does not pray That's a belief. i don't pray the way muslims do. I read quran and think about God.
4 does not pay anything to anybody Also a belief. I think that you are pointing to Zakat. I think that Zakat is Mind Purification. Charity in Quran is called Sadaqa.
5 does not fast Belief also. Nobody, with facts (quran), can prove that fast=no eat and no drink
6 and never travels to Mecca Also a Belief. Nobody, with facts (quran), can prove that Hajj=go, at least once, to a city called mecca and turn around a cubic stone.Your question is totally based on gadget of 5 Pillars.
I reject the five in their actual form (i don't testify that God is the only God and dont testify that Muhammad is his prophet. I have seen nothing and this formula is not in quran and is clealy a false testimony).After first purification, according to my own set of beliefs, (i remove also the islamic god terminology based on the belief that islam is a religion who came with muhammad while quranic facts tells the contrary and says that islam came with Abraham), your question become
My question what do you think happens to a believer/follower/submitter/Muslim who lives a quiet life as a maths teacher, believes a god, the creator, exists and is responsible for everything - does not pay anything to anybody ?
Here we have another problem. It is too much easy for our teacher to claim he believes in God. What is the proof ?
Quran tell you that if you believe in God, then you have to give him a loan under the form of Charity to poors. He promise you to give it back in the thereafter multiplied many times during all the eternety. The gain is obvious. No sincere believer can refuse this exchange.
Again, i have to purify the questionMy question what do you think happens to a believer/follower/submitter/Muslim who lives a quiet life as a maths teacher, believes a god, the creator, exists and is responsible for everything and make him loans when God asked him for loans ?
Response He go to paradise.
Now, i suppose that you are not happy by response and you want to change the question
My question what do you think happens to a Human who lives a quiet life as a maths teacher, who don't believes in god, but make many good things in his life, helped poors ....?
This question is also based on a huge belief. The belief that we are here to make good things. The belief that good people go to heaven and bad people go to Hell. Quran never said something like that.
Heaven is the garden (Jenna) of God. Why would he accept there people that don't belief in him, reject his orders and follows others educators (Rabb/Arbabs).
Quran says that Good actions of unbelievers are nullified. It is not what it is asked. Totally out of topic.Now, face to God, our teacher have no good valuable actions to present and can no more pass the eternity near who he rejected. He obviously cannot be a good subject to his lord and reasons for his goods actions are in the unknown state.
What will happen to him then ?
Hell, if not heaven, would be response based on another enormous religious belief (really, dear StopS, you are a very difficult case).In page 2 of quran we have already a response.
26 As for those who reject, whether you warn them or do not warn them, they will not believe (the no end debate i told you).
27 God has sealed their hearts and their ears, and over their eyes are covers. They will incur a great retribution (adhab).Rejectors are opposed to liars
28 And from the people are those who say "We believe in God and in the Last Day," but they are not believers.
29 They seek to deceive God and those who believe, but they only deceive themselves without noticing.
210 In their hearts is a disease, so God increases their disease, and they will have a painful retribution (adhab) for what they have denied.For many people, ADHAB means supplice. But that word means originally separation or exile.
Hell (painfull adhab) is then the promise for liars and those who contributed to propagate lies on God. The ennemies of God who call themselves muslims and who lost people take as representative of islam.Now, let suppose that our teacher never did something like that.
I think that the only thing he can hope is a simple and not painful destruction/dissolution of his soul. Destruction and no reward by what he rejected. It is justice.However our teacher have to respond to the big question of God ?
Why haven't you believed in me and in my words ?
Hope that our teacher not only relied on beliefs not based on facts and didn't helped to propagate sayings in wich it is told that God don't exists and even if he existed what he said is total stupidity.According to my own lecture of Quran, there will be a time where no one can claim to be neutral about the question of God. It will be a time where unbelievers and badbelievers will face each other in all places in the world and no one can claim to be behind an iron wall (18-98 to 18-102). According to quran, there will be a time where quran will dominate all the religion of God (48-28; 61-9).
I remind you that Muhammad is not more arab than Jesus or Moses and that is also a belief, a very stupid belief. Just episodes in the same story.I dont have the scale of God for the judgement day. He is the only who decide. He is the only forgiver.
I don't know what did the last who will enter heaven and what did the last who will enter heaven.
We can continue in no end debate. At a point, i will have no aswer to questions about God since i am not God, and i never seen him.if you want to know what muslims think, you can read forums until the end of your life and i guaranty you you will never get a response.
if you waat to know what God says, just open his book and read it with mind freed from false beliefs and what so called muslims said and what unknown noshirk said.
if you do that, just remind that god has full access read and write on your mind (it is in quran).
I remind you also that Quran is complete in spirit world. You will lean there how human mind and soul works if you don't says That is old stories about ancients.
Who knows ? perhaps you will have, one day, to respond to the question
Why haven't you believed in me and in my words (and why have you just followed what others said about me)?Peace
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Hi Everyone,
I appreciate everyones comments. What I am trying to say is that science and religion can work together. The Quran tells us
"contemplate the wonders of creation" (Quran 3191).
This is a direct reference to telling us to study science.
"Behold! In the creation of the heavens and the earth; in the alternation of the night and the day; in the sailing of ships through the ocean, for the profit of mankind; in the rain which Allah sends down from the skies, and the life which He gives therewith to an earth that is dead; in the beasts of all kinds that He scatters through the earth; in the change of the winds, and the clouds which they trail like their slaves between the sky and the earth; here indeed are Signs for a people that are wise" (Quran 2164)
These are where Allah is telling us "Proof" of his existence.
So since the Quran tells us to study science and encourages science, I think Science and Religion are compatible. The Quran tries to give many proofs. These two work together. Karl Gauss believed in God. Darwin believed in God. But they were looking for wonderment in creation.
On a side note I don't really care if you believe I am a Scientist or not. Everytime the phone rings and someone asks for my help on their scientific question is validation enough that I am a scientist. And most scientists are a bit arrogant.
Again I ask that personal attacks be kept to a minimum as it distracts from the conversation.
Just my two cents...
JewishDude
peace Salam, Shalom, Peace peaceSalam JewishDude
you case is much easier than StopS case.I totally agree with you. I even called science a second quran, the second set of words of God.
There are not just not compatible. There are complementary in a sense that they deals with two dual aspects the matter and spirit.
Really, i recognize from the style, the reason and the logic of the writer, that the writer of two set words is the same writer.There is people who says that Quran and science are separated in the sense that quran has not to obey to logic, reasoning, demonstration ....
in the contrary, i think that quran has to be studied as we study science. Quran has to be purified from old theories and mythologies surrounding him.
Quran is science, another science, science of human spirit, of how they think and assemble in spiritual communauties.Peace