What happens to a Muslim who does not pray?
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There is so much ambiguity not because the koran is but because people have chosen to basically invent their own definitions, rituals, interpretations and such. I think it is hard for people to accept that God wishes no hardship in religion.
God did not tell me to take a portion of my money and give it away. (i do pay nearly 40% of my income in taxes). If I give money to help someone else out or for a good cause like cancer research and such, it would be a good thing and will be rewarded but I won't be punished for not doing so.
God did not tell me to spend thousands of dollars, going through the hardship of pilgrimage to Mecca, throwing stones, circling around this building wearing white garb. I think we could eradicate poverty or at least do a lot towards fighting poverty with all the money that millions of people spend every year.
God did not say salat=ritual of worship to be done like people have defined.
Now, God did say 262 Surely those who believe; and those who are Jewish, and the Nazarenes, and the Sabians, whoever of them believes in God and the Last Day and does good works; they will have their recompense with their Lord, and there is no fear upon them, nor will they grieve.
So the answer to your question is in the Koran, sura 262.
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i think you must read the Quran and then ASK.
That's what I said, that's what I did and now I am asking.
Our nefs can lead us to follow a path or to understand anything wrong (see Sura al Schams) and the one who follow his own desires can go astray- all this go in the same direction as the 'whisperings' from our brain
My desire is to pass my knowledge on to others and be a good person. And now I learn this is called "going astray" sob
I don't have anything whispering to me. Not that I know of, anyway.So Godsubmitter once told me anything i will never forget again Allah don't need us or our prayers- prayers are for ourselves as meditations are for ourselves. we will become humble and quite through it. (because we learn to control our desires, emotions, feelings etc. and to used it in a good manner) .
i don;t know it this was really helpful. sorry.
peaceI asked something a little different, but I now know how you feel about prayers and their meaning, thank you.
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There is so much ambiguity not because the koran is but because people have chosen to basically invent their own definitions, rituals, interpretations and such. I think it is hard for people to accept that God wishes no hardship in religion.
God did not tell me to take a portion of my money and give it away. (i do pay nearly 40% of my income in taxes). If I give money to help someone else out or for a good cause like cancer research and such, it would be a good thing and will be rewarded but I won't be punished for not doing so.
God did not tell me to spend thousands of dollars, going through the hardship of pilgrimage to Mecca, throwing stones, circling around this building wearing white garb. I think we could eradicate poverty or at least do a lot towards fighting poverty with all the money that millions of people spend every year.
God did not say salat=ritual of worship to be done like people have defined.
Now, God did say 262 Surely those who believe; and those who are Jewish, and the Nazarenes, and the Sabians, whoever of them believes in God and the Last Day and does good works; they will have their recompense with their Lord, and there is no fear upon them, nor will they grieve.
So the answer to your question is in the Koran, sura 262.
I think if I were a Muslim this is what I would understand too.
I would have a bit of a problem reconciling the demand for worship, but I suppose that's manageable.
You make an interesting observation 262 absolves anyone who believes in a different entity and then analyses the "good works"? Am I correct in understanding this to be a notion of generosity, where people are told they need to believe in one god and be good people and this is the ultimate goal? Regardless of the other rituals. Hm, not bad! Makes sense.
That would leave only polytheists and non-believers out in the cold, well figuratively speaking. ;D
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Salam StopS
I think you become a good answer from brother mmkhan- references from the Quran.
Al Rahman is the teacher from the Quran- so i will not give you MY understanding, because this will be subjective- i think you must read the Quran and then ASK.
Our nefs can lead us to follow a path or to understand anything wrong (see Sura al Schams) and the one who follow his own desires can go astray- all this go in the same direction as the 'whisperings' from our brain tempt---
So Godsubmitter once told me anything i will never forget again Allah don't need us or our prayers- prayers are for ourselves as meditations are for ourselves. we will become humble and quite through it. (because we learn to control our desires, emotions, feelings etc. and to used it in a good manner) .
i don;t know it this was really helpful. sorry.
peaceExactly the same feelings as me mirjamnur.
My dad was asking me today why bother doing "salat", the learning connection/bond, and i said i do it most of the time at night because it acts as a meditation for me. God doesn't need my articulations to it, nor does it need absolutely anything from us. At the end of the day it benefits the person and can help prevent a person from leading astray. Maum meditation is also very similar to how i think salat/the bond should be done. I was asked if i do namaz, and my reply was that this is a word not found in the reading but a ritual created from the zoroastrianism around Persia. The main thing is to bare in mind that if you speak to god for private moments, repentance and requests (such as asking to be guided or be given peace, wisdom, tranquility and prosperity) this is the bond or learning connection you make with the creator, for YOUR benefit - remember, the creator is self-sufficient, it doesn't need your acts of what "salat" incorporates.
I think if I were a Muslim this is what I would understand too.
I would have a bit of a problem reconciling the demand for worship, but I suppose that's manageable.
You make an interesting observation 262 absolves anyone who believes in a different entity and then analyses the "good works"? Am I correct in understanding this to be a notion of generosity, where people are told they need to believe in one god and be good people and this is the ultimate goal? Regardless of the other rituals. Hm, not bad! Makes sense.
That would leave only polytheists and non-believers out in the cold, well figuratively speaking. ;D
Precisely ), what i defined as the "basic building blocks of life" and being a good person - one god and be a good person is the ultimate goal ).
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Allah don't need us or our prayers- prayers are for ourselves as meditations are for ourselves. we will become humble and quite through it. (because we learn to control our desires, emotions, feelings etc. and to used it in a good manner)
Absolutely, God has no needs. Praying is for us. now, God doesn't say that "prayer" has to be done a certain way and manner at specified time as people define and understand salat to be. Also, meditation or "prayer" doesn't per se lead to being humble. It is our actions and behavior that makes us humble. For instance if say someone betrays me and wrongs me which upsets me/angers me, natural tendency would be to react. So what would stop me from acting on my emotions? Not really the meditation/prayer done earlier but it is remembering God, consequences of actions and asking God (which is prayer) to help with dealing with the negative emotions and situation. Going and meditating as a way of clearing my head and controlling myself would help but in the minute to minute situations and circumstances throughout the day, it is the remembrance and reliance on God that really leads to controlling oneself and making choices/decisions.
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You make an interesting observation 262 absolves anyone who believes in a different entity and then analyses the "good works"? Am I correct in understanding this to be a notion of generosity, where people are told they need to believe in one god and be good people and this is the ultimate goal? Regardless of the other rituals. Hm, not bad! Makes sense.
Yes, basically that is it. I think this concept is too simple and people feel a need to have rituals that involves some kind of hardship/suffering. Being a good person and doing good works doesn't necessarily mean doing charitable work or being generous. How about just being good to your family, friends, neighbor, colleagues? Simple enough yet hard to do as arrogance, ego, selfishness, immaturity, stupidity and other human traits comes in play.
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Salam StopS
That's what I said, that's what I did and now I am asking.
sorry, i forget , i mean we should ask Allah firstMy desire is to pass my knowledge on to others and be a good person. And now I learn this is called "going astray" sob
I don't have anything whispering to me. Not that I know of, anyway.
i didn't speak from you- i didn't say that YOU GO ASTRAY- you read between the lines- it was a general statement (maybe because i stumbled over the same questions ) and include me (because i'm confusedI asked something a little different, but I now know how you feel about prayers and their meaning, thank you.
what i tried to say because we didn't pray for Allah and the Salat is not prescribed in detail how could Allah punish us for it??peace
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My dad was asking me today why bother doing "salat", the learning connection/bond, and i said i do it most of the time at night because it acts as a meditation for me.
Hey, I never thought of that. I think that's a very good way of looking at it. Nice.
God doesn't need my articulations to it, nor does it need absolutely anything from us.
I tend to agree with this and it makes perfect sense. But is that what I find in the Koran? Isn't there this bit about humans and jinns only being created to worship? If I follow through a bit further, it would mean humans are created to be tested. Which, due to omniscience, does not really make much sense.
At the end of the day it benefits the person and can help prevent a person from leading astray. Maum meditation is also very similar to how i think salat/the bond should be done. I was asked if i do namaz, and my reply was that this is a word not found in the reading but a ritual created from the zoroastrianism around Persia. The main thing is to bare in mind that if you speak to god for private moments, repentance and requests (such as asking to be guided or be given peace, wisdom, tranquility and prosperity) this is the bond or learning connection you make with the creator, for YOUR benefit - remember, the creator is self-sufficient, it doesn't need your acts of what "salat" incorporates.
I don't think I would ask any god for prosperity myself.
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Absolutely, God has no needs. Praying is for us. now, God doesn't say that "prayer" has to be done a certain way and manner at specified time as people define and understand salat to be.
Doesn't the Koran mention a "dawn prayer" in 2458? Just when I am in a REM state? )
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sorry, i forget , i mean we should ask Allah first
i didn't speak from you- i didn't say that YOU GO ASTRAY- you read between the lines- it was a general statement (maybe because i stumbled over the same questions ) and include me (because i'm confused
what i tried to say because we didn't pray for Allah and the Salat is not prescribed in detail how could Allah punish us for it??Salam StopSpeace
Now I understand. Thanks for the clarification. I do admit, however, that the first point is a tad too complicated for me )
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Hey, I never thought of that. I think that's a very good way of looking at it. Nice.
I tend to agree with this and it makes perfect sense. But is that what I find in the Koran? Isn't there this bit about humans and jinns only being created to worship? If I follow through a bit further, it would mean humans are created to be tested. Which, due to omniscience, does not really make much sense.
I don't think I would ask any god for prosperity myself.
I believe we are told to serve god (I find a difference between serving and worshipping so I'll use this instead), as a test that we have been given (for a reason that can be discussed in another thread). This doesn't effect omniscience as godknows the ooutcome of all of us because god knows the outcomes of all paths taken, however we do get a say in which paths we take (unless the creator makes them unavailable for us).
When I say prosperity I mean I ask god to provide me enough sustenance to be able to survive and help my family through hard financial times, to be a successful person for the benefit of supporting my family and others, not for myself, I don't care about myself in that respect, as long as I have a roof above my head and food, im happy ).
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I believe we are told to serve god (I find a difference between serving and worshipping so I'll use this instead), as a test that we have been given (for a reason that can be discussed in another thread). This doesn't effect omniscience as godknows the ooutcome of all of us because god knows the outcomes of all paths taken, however we do get a say in which paths we take (unless the creator makes them unavailable for us).
When I say prosperity I mean I ask god to provide me enough sustenance to be able to survive and help my family through hard financial times, to be a successful person for the benefit of supporting my family and others, not for myself, I don't care about myself in that respect, as long as I have a roof above my head and food, im happy ).
Serving a god/creator.
Worshipping a god/creator.Can I serve without worshipping and can I worship without serving? I've never thought about this, but it seems to be very similar at a first glance.
Translators of 51;56 also say
I have only created Jinns and men, that they may serve Me.
I did not create the Jinns and the human beings except for the purpose that they should worship Me.So does this creator you say created you for a reason need and require your service/worship or not? Is this sentence in the Koran just a suggestion, a nice idea or a command? I don't think it is dependent on the word worship or serve. It's the principle I am after.
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Serving a god/creator.
Worshipping a god/creator.Can I serve without worshipping and can I worship without serving? I've never thought about this, but it seems to be very similar at a first glance.
Translators of 51;56 also say
I have only created Jinns and men, that they may serve Me.
I did not create the Jinns and the human beings except for the purpose that they should worship Me.So does this creator you say created you for a reason need and require your service/worship or not? Is this sentence in the Koran just a suggestion, a nice idea or a command? I don't think it is dependent on the word worship or serve. It's the principle I am after.
I believe I serve without worshipping. I don't know if someone can use their arabic skills but as far as I'm aware, the word used when it comes to Allah is always serving - this needs confirmation, anyway that wasn't my point.
The point is this in no way for me does this verse tell me it is benefitting Allah. Merely we are asked to serve god to reddem ourselves for our ignorance in accepting the trust/amana (this is for another thread). Personally I believe it is clear from the reading that we are but a fraction of gods creation. We are just being told to serve to redeem ourselves. It makes up a much bigger picture that we can't comprehend.
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The point is this in no way for me does this verse tell me it is benefitting Allah. Merely we are asked to serve god to reddem ourselves for our ignorance in accepting the trust/amana
So let me now look at the process you are created as an ignorant human and are now serving this creator who has created you ignorant. To redeem yourself. What happens when you have redeemed yourself? What if you were created "non-ignorant"?
What happens if you don't serve? Not at all. Do you think you stay more ignorant or does this have further consequences for you personally?
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So let me now look at the process you are created as an ignorant human and are now serving this creator who has created you ignorant. To redeem yourself. What happens when you have redeemed yourself? What if you were created "non-ignorant"?
What happens if you don't serve? Not at all. Do you think you stay more ignorant or does this have further consequences for you personally?
Well, we were created weak - 4.28, that's as far as i know. Of course we were created ignorant, ignorance is lack of knowledge or awareness. Would you not agree that this is the case when we were created? When i say redeeming yourself, i am referring to bettering ourselves and not being ignorant. We are "weak" to following our own desires, we have a tendency to fall victim to our own selfishness. The fact is everyone is created ignorant/lacks knowledge of everything. In terms of if you don't serve, i suppose it depends on how you are not serving. For me, if you reject a creator in general, i find it ignorant because of course, there is some form of a creator of the universe. I think the whole idea is to try not to be ignorant, to gain knowledge through the signs in the universe and try to use our logic and reason to the best of our ability to serve god by working with it's laws. Doing good is the main way of serving god. Giving your excess to charity and not spending it on an expensive car or something is one example. If we all did this, the world would not be as it is today, that's the consequences of what our actions cause.
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Well, we were created weak
Why? For what reason? If you were created weak, how then can you possibly pass a test you are not equipped for?
Of course we were created ignorant, ignorance is lack of knowledge or awareness.
Same questions. Why? For what reason? If you were created ignorant, how then can you possibly pass a test you are not equipped for?
Would you not agree that this is the case when we were created?
Hahaha, no. Evolution gave us the brain capacity and what we make of it is a combination of genes and environment.
When i say redeeming yourself, i am referring to bettering ourselves and not being ignorant. We are "weak" to following our own desires, we have a tendency to fall victim to our own selfishness. The fact is everyone is created ignorant/lacks knowledge of everything. In terms of if you don't serve, i suppose it depends on how you are not serving. For me, if you reject a creator in general, i find it ignorant because of course, there is some form of a creator of the universe.
How do you know there is a creator? Why do you believe this?
I can't reject something that has not been proven to exist. Do you or can you reject the elephant on my shoulder or the fairies in my garden?I think the whole idea is to try not to be ignorant, to gain knowledge through the signs in the universe and try to use our logic and reason to the best of our ability to serve god by working with it's laws. Doing good is the main way of serving god. Giving your excess to charity and not spending it on an expensive car or something is one example. If we all did this, the world would not be as it is today, that's the consequences of what our actions cause.
I agree with this 100%
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Why? For what reason? If you were created weak, how then can you possibly pass a test you are not equipped for?
Same questions. Why? For what reason? If you were created ignorant, how then can you possibly pass a test you are not equipped for?
Hahaha, no. Evolution gave us the brain capacity and what we make of it is a combination of genes and environment.
How do you know there is a creator? Why do you believe this?
I can't reject something that has not been proven to exist. Do you or can you reject the elephant on my shoulder or the fairies in my garden?I agree with this 100%
When i say we were created weak, i mean as in we are susceptible to, say, "the devils whispers". Why? Because that's how we are... That's like saying why do we have feelings. I think you might be misreading what i'm saying. When i say we were created, i mean WHEN we were created i.e. when we were born. When we are born, we know nothing, or near to nothing, except to cry because of the new environment we come into. We are ignorant and without knowledge at that point. I'm talking about at the point of us coming into this world. As we get older, we obviously strive to NOT be ignorant, and gain knowledge through many things such as philosophy, science, our surroundings etc. We have the capacity and ability to pass this test. As god told us, people already have hence why they will go to paradise. I hope this makes more sense.
I believe in a creator because this whole universe didn't pop out of nowhere. Whether you believe in one creator or multiple creators, this didn't come out of nothing. Something must have created all this. I choose to believe that it is from one creator, others say multiple creators, others say pantheism. To say there was NOTHING? Well... i cannot comprehend that. If there was no creation, then yes i would say you're right, but a creation always has a creator, the one creator of everything, the one that cannot be created or destroyed. That sounds like i'm describing energy -X, but the one cannot be created or destroyed and that's how i see it.
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When i say we were created weak, i mean as in we are susceptible to say "the devils whispers". Why? Because that's how we are... That's like saying why do we have feelings. I think you might be misreading what i'm saying. When i say we were created, i mean WHEN we were created i.e. when we were born. When we are born, we know nothing, or knew to nothing, except to cry because of the new environment we come into. We are ignorant and without knowledge at that point. I'm talking about at the point of us coming into this world. As we get older, we obviously strive to NOT be ignorant, and gain knowledge through many things such as philosophy, science, our surroundings etc. We have the capacity and ability to pass this test. As god told us, people already have hence why they will go to paradise. I hope this makes more sense.
Yep, getting better, much better.
It does not resolve the circular reasoning, but explains your opinion.I believe in a creator because this whole universe didn't pop out of nowhere.
Why not?
Whether you believe in one creator or multiple creators, this didn't come out of nothing.
Why not?
Something must have created all this.
Why?
I choose to believe that it is from one creator, others say multiple creators, others say pantheism. To say there was NOTHING? Well... i cannot comprehend that.
Ok, this I respect. I will chat with Lawrence Krauss about this next week. He wrote a book about it (A Universe from Nothing) and made several videos, but they are still too complicated so I want to know if he can help make it easier to understand for people who are not scientists and cosmologists.
If there was no creation, then yes i would say you're right, but a creation always has a creator, the one creator of everything, the one that cannot be created or destroyed. That sounds like i'm describing energy -X, but the one cannot be created or destroyed and that's how i see it.
That's your opinion and that's fine if it works for you.
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Yep, getting better, much better.
It does not resolve the circular reasoning, but explains your opinion.Why not?
Why not?
Why?
Ok, this I respect. I will chat with Lawrence Krauss about this next week. He wrote a book about it (A Universe from Nothing) and made several videos, but they are still too complicated so I want to know if he can help make it easier to understand for people who are not scientists and cosmologists.
That's your opinion and that's fine if it works for you.
Thanks, I sometimes rush my posts carelessly due to having tonnes of bloody things to do so sorry if i am unclear at times.
Let me know how the explanation goes. I was reading this a few hours ago
http//nmalbert.hubpages.com/hub/Nothing-Comes-From-Nothing
It might be of interest for you. I found the first paragraph fascinating. My view still holds. There is some form of a creator. I suppose, as the article states, it depends on what Lawrence Krauss means by "nothing".
Keep me updated .
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Thank you for correcting my mistake. Yes, I did indeed forget the last part
It is not fitting for a man that Allah should speak to him except by inspiration, or from behind a veil
and the "from behind a veil" escaped me.Well, that is exactly what my sentence means - or I wanted it to mean anyway. So my question to you is what do you personally think will happen to a well-behaved, believing Muslim who does not pray or pay or go on Hajj? Will he suffer for eternity together with the idolaters and non-believers?
My answer to your question is If a boy did not complete his homework is punished for the same and another boy slaps his teacher and also got punished. Do you think, they get the same punishment? I say NO.
Here I disagree with you. There are sins which will be forgiven but others will not be forgiven, indicating a ranking list. But that is irrelevant to my question.
Reference from alQuraan is needed.
What happens if you do NOT follow all the orders?
If so, you are not fulfilling the purpose of being created, so you will be punished accordingly. Even if you keep a dog, you expects him to behave as you want .
I was using the word pillar to refer to the commonly understood concept of Islamic rituals. If you object to the word, ignore it, I think you know what I mean.
The Koran is generally totally vague and ambiguous, which is why so much interpretation is required and which is why we have so many groups all following the same book. Instead of never finding an answer I thought I'd use the means available to the inquisitive mind in the 21st century and on top of asking the local Imam - who did not give me an answer - I come here to ask the experts. Easy, really.
Red I disagree, alQuraan is not vague nor ambiguous, but people are. They follow what other humans have to say instead of following what their Creator asked them for. It is their problem that they mix the Truth with falsehood and get confuse about their Lord and His word.
It took years for you to read and write English words, how can you expect to understand the word of God in one shot!
The link you provided only confused me more, as it mentions an account and how it must be balanced and kept clean - all things I don't remember reading in the Koran and it poses the question "when Allah is not going to forgive us", which is basically impossible for an all-merciful being.
This is your logic, but alQuraan talks about the Truth which is also logical. Don't forget that Allah is not only the Creator of believers, so forgiving one for a sin and punishing another for the same sin is not God.
May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path pr
mmKhan