What happens to a Muslim who does not pray?
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I believe we are told to serve god (I find a difference between serving and worshipping so I'll use this instead), as a test that we have been given (for a reason that can be discussed in another thread). This doesn't effect omniscience as godknows the ooutcome of all of us because god knows the outcomes of all paths taken, however we do get a say in which paths we take (unless the creator makes them unavailable for us).
When I say prosperity I mean I ask god to provide me enough sustenance to be able to survive and help my family through hard financial times, to be a successful person for the benefit of supporting my family and others, not for myself, I don't care about myself in that respect, as long as I have a roof above my head and food, im happy ).
Serving a god/creator.
Worshipping a god/creator.Can I serve without worshipping and can I worship without serving? I've never thought about this, but it seems to be very similar at a first glance.
Translators of 51;56 also say
I have only created Jinns and men, that they may serve Me.
I did not create the Jinns and the human beings except for the purpose that they should worship Me.So does this creator you say created you for a reason need and require your service/worship or not? Is this sentence in the Koran just a suggestion, a nice idea or a command? I don't think it is dependent on the word worship or serve. It's the principle I am after.
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Serving a god/creator.
Worshipping a god/creator.Can I serve without worshipping and can I worship without serving? I've never thought about this, but it seems to be very similar at a first glance.
Translators of 51;56 also say
I have only created Jinns and men, that they may serve Me.
I did not create the Jinns and the human beings except for the purpose that they should worship Me.So does this creator you say created you for a reason need and require your service/worship or not? Is this sentence in the Koran just a suggestion, a nice idea or a command? I don't think it is dependent on the word worship or serve. It's the principle I am after.
I believe I serve without worshipping. I don't know if someone can use their arabic skills but as far as I'm aware, the word used when it comes to Allah is always serving - this needs confirmation, anyway that wasn't my point.
The point is this in no way for me does this verse tell me it is benefitting Allah. Merely we are asked to serve god to reddem ourselves for our ignorance in accepting the trust/amana (this is for another thread). Personally I believe it is clear from the reading that we are but a fraction of gods creation. We are just being told to serve to redeem ourselves. It makes up a much bigger picture that we can't comprehend.
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The point is this in no way for me does this verse tell me it is benefitting Allah. Merely we are asked to serve god to reddem ourselves for our ignorance in accepting the trust/amana
So let me now look at the process you are created as an ignorant human and are now serving this creator who has created you ignorant. To redeem yourself. What happens when you have redeemed yourself? What if you were created "non-ignorant"?
What happens if you don't serve? Not at all. Do you think you stay more ignorant or does this have further consequences for you personally?
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So let me now look at the process you are created as an ignorant human and are now serving this creator who has created you ignorant. To redeem yourself. What happens when you have redeemed yourself? What if you were created "non-ignorant"?
What happens if you don't serve? Not at all. Do you think you stay more ignorant or does this have further consequences for you personally?
Well, we were created weak - 4.28, that's as far as i know. Of course we were created ignorant, ignorance is lack of knowledge or awareness. Would you not agree that this is the case when we were created? When i say redeeming yourself, i am referring to bettering ourselves and not being ignorant. We are "weak" to following our own desires, we have a tendency to fall victim to our own selfishness. The fact is everyone is created ignorant/lacks knowledge of everything. In terms of if you don't serve, i suppose it depends on how you are not serving. For me, if you reject a creator in general, i find it ignorant because of course, there is some form of a creator of the universe. I think the whole idea is to try not to be ignorant, to gain knowledge through the signs in the universe and try to use our logic and reason to the best of our ability to serve god by working with it's laws. Doing good is the main way of serving god. Giving your excess to charity and not spending it on an expensive car or something is one example. If we all did this, the world would not be as it is today, that's the consequences of what our actions cause.
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Well, we were created weak
Why? For what reason? If you were created weak, how then can you possibly pass a test you are not equipped for?
Of course we were created ignorant, ignorance is lack of knowledge or awareness.
Same questions. Why? For what reason? If you were created ignorant, how then can you possibly pass a test you are not equipped for?
Would you not agree that this is the case when we were created?
Hahaha, no. Evolution gave us the brain capacity and what we make of it is a combination of genes and environment.
When i say redeeming yourself, i am referring to bettering ourselves and not being ignorant. We are "weak" to following our own desires, we have a tendency to fall victim to our own selfishness. The fact is everyone is created ignorant/lacks knowledge of everything. In terms of if you don't serve, i suppose it depends on how you are not serving. For me, if you reject a creator in general, i find it ignorant because of course, there is some form of a creator of the universe.
How do you know there is a creator? Why do you believe this?
I can't reject something that has not been proven to exist. Do you or can you reject the elephant on my shoulder or the fairies in my garden?I think the whole idea is to try not to be ignorant, to gain knowledge through the signs in the universe and try to use our logic and reason to the best of our ability to serve god by working with it's laws. Doing good is the main way of serving god. Giving your excess to charity and not spending it on an expensive car or something is one example. If we all did this, the world would not be as it is today, that's the consequences of what our actions cause.
I agree with this 100%
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Why? For what reason? If you were created weak, how then can you possibly pass a test you are not equipped for?
Same questions. Why? For what reason? If you were created ignorant, how then can you possibly pass a test you are not equipped for?
Hahaha, no. Evolution gave us the brain capacity and what we make of it is a combination of genes and environment.
How do you know there is a creator? Why do you believe this?
I can't reject something that has not been proven to exist. Do you or can you reject the elephant on my shoulder or the fairies in my garden?I agree with this 100%
When i say we were created weak, i mean as in we are susceptible to, say, "the devils whispers". Why? Because that's how we are... That's like saying why do we have feelings. I think you might be misreading what i'm saying. When i say we were created, i mean WHEN we were created i.e. when we were born. When we are born, we know nothing, or near to nothing, except to cry because of the new environment we come into. We are ignorant and without knowledge at that point. I'm talking about at the point of us coming into this world. As we get older, we obviously strive to NOT be ignorant, and gain knowledge through many things such as philosophy, science, our surroundings etc. We have the capacity and ability to pass this test. As god told us, people already have hence why they will go to paradise. I hope this makes more sense.
I believe in a creator because this whole universe didn't pop out of nowhere. Whether you believe in one creator or multiple creators, this didn't come out of nothing. Something must have created all this. I choose to believe that it is from one creator, others say multiple creators, others say pantheism. To say there was NOTHING? Well... i cannot comprehend that. If there was no creation, then yes i would say you're right, but a creation always has a creator, the one creator of everything, the one that cannot be created or destroyed. That sounds like i'm describing energy -X, but the one cannot be created or destroyed and that's how i see it.
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When i say we were created weak, i mean as in we are susceptible to say "the devils whispers". Why? Because that's how we are... That's like saying why do we have feelings. I think you might be misreading what i'm saying. When i say we were created, i mean WHEN we were created i.e. when we were born. When we are born, we know nothing, or knew to nothing, except to cry because of the new environment we come into. We are ignorant and without knowledge at that point. I'm talking about at the point of us coming into this world. As we get older, we obviously strive to NOT be ignorant, and gain knowledge through many things such as philosophy, science, our surroundings etc. We have the capacity and ability to pass this test. As god told us, people already have hence why they will go to paradise. I hope this makes more sense.
Yep, getting better, much better.
It does not resolve the circular reasoning, but explains your opinion.I believe in a creator because this whole universe didn't pop out of nowhere.
Why not?
Whether you believe in one creator or multiple creators, this didn't come out of nothing.
Why not?
Something must have created all this.
Why?
I choose to believe that it is from one creator, others say multiple creators, others say pantheism. To say there was NOTHING? Well... i cannot comprehend that.
Ok, this I respect. I will chat with Lawrence Krauss about this next week. He wrote a book about it (A Universe from Nothing) and made several videos, but they are still too complicated so I want to know if he can help make it easier to understand for people who are not scientists and cosmologists.
If there was no creation, then yes i would say you're right, but a creation always has a creator, the one creator of everything, the one that cannot be created or destroyed. That sounds like i'm describing energy -X, but the one cannot be created or destroyed and that's how i see it.
That's your opinion and that's fine if it works for you.
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Yep, getting better, much better.
It does not resolve the circular reasoning, but explains your opinion.Why not?
Why not?
Why?
Ok, this I respect. I will chat with Lawrence Krauss about this next week. He wrote a book about it (A Universe from Nothing) and made several videos, but they are still too complicated so I want to know if he can help make it easier to understand for people who are not scientists and cosmologists.
That's your opinion and that's fine if it works for you.
Thanks, I sometimes rush my posts carelessly due to having tonnes of bloody things to do so sorry if i am unclear at times.
Let me know how the explanation goes. I was reading this a few hours ago
http//nmalbert.hubpages.com/hub/Nothing-Comes-From-Nothing
It might be of interest for you. I found the first paragraph fascinating. My view still holds. There is some form of a creator. I suppose, as the article states, it depends on what Lawrence Krauss means by "nothing".
Keep me updated .
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Thank you for correcting my mistake. Yes, I did indeed forget the last part
It is not fitting for a man that Allah should speak to him except by inspiration, or from behind a veil
and the "from behind a veil" escaped me.Well, that is exactly what my sentence means - or I wanted it to mean anyway. So my question to you is what do you personally think will happen to a well-behaved, believing Muslim who does not pray or pay or go on Hajj? Will he suffer for eternity together with the idolaters and non-believers?
My answer to your question is If a boy did not complete his homework is punished for the same and another boy slaps his teacher and also got punished. Do you think, they get the same punishment? I say NO.
Here I disagree with you. There are sins which will be forgiven but others will not be forgiven, indicating a ranking list. But that is irrelevant to my question.
Reference from alQuraan is needed.
What happens if you do NOT follow all the orders?
If so, you are not fulfilling the purpose of being created, so you will be punished accordingly. Even if you keep a dog, you expects him to behave as you want .
I was using the word pillar to refer to the commonly understood concept of Islamic rituals. If you object to the word, ignore it, I think you know what I mean.
The Koran is generally totally vague and ambiguous, which is why so much interpretation is required and which is why we have so many groups all following the same book. Instead of never finding an answer I thought I'd use the means available to the inquisitive mind in the 21st century and on top of asking the local Imam - who did not give me an answer - I come here to ask the experts. Easy, really.
Red I disagree, alQuraan is not vague nor ambiguous, but people are. They follow what other humans have to say instead of following what their Creator asked them for. It is their problem that they mix the Truth with falsehood and get confuse about their Lord and His word.
It took years for you to read and write English words, how can you expect to understand the word of God in one shot!
The link you provided only confused me more, as it mentions an account and how it must be balanced and kept clean - all things I don't remember reading in the Koran and it poses the question "when Allah is not going to forgive us", which is basically impossible for an all-merciful being.
This is your logic, but alQuraan talks about the Truth which is also logical. Don't forget that Allah is not only the Creator of believers, so forgiving one for a sin and punishing another for the same sin is not God.
May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path pr
mmKhan -
Although the question might be interesting, we can never know the answer!
First of all, because we shall probably know it "on the other side" and nobody never returned from the Hereafter to tell us, and secondly, because it is ridiculous to guess what God might think, because we can never know that, no matter how hard we try.As I've already said somewhere on another thread, although some posts are interesting on this Forum, many "discussions" remind me of Yeshiva discussions and Talmudic "mental gymnastics" of the Rabbis (one can even read plenty in Pharisaic literature), and, do believe me, they are far much better in dissecting and quibbling the religious problems then people here could ever be!
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http//nmalbert.hubpages.com/hub/Nothing-Comes-From-Nothing
It might be of interest for you. I found the first paragraph fascinating. My view still holds. There is some form of a creator. I suppose, as the article states, it depends on what Lawrence Krauss means by "nothing".
Keep me updated ).
It's a pity you don't answer my questions.
The article is a nice summary and show the common mistake "The big bang only accounts for the creation of the physical universe, it does not account for where all that energy came from in the first place."
The Big Bang is a model, an attempt at explaining how something happened and when. There is no why. There is no question what was "before" that moment and what the origin of the matter and energy was.
But this is off-topic and of no consequence to anyone when it comes to belief.
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My answer to your question is If a boy did not complete his homework is punished for the same and another boy slaps his teacher and also got punished. Do you think, they get the same punishment? I say NO.
My answer is I don't know. I also don't know of any other or more nuanced options in the Koran other than heaven as place-holder for reward and hell as place-holder for punishment. It is digital to me.
Reference from alQuraan is needed.
I felt it being inappropriate showing an expert in the Koran a particular sentence. Also, it is largely irrelevant and unimportant.
If so, you are not fulfilling the purpose of being created, so you will be punished accordingly. Even if you keep a dog, you expects him to behave as you want .
This is highly cryptic and totally vague I am sure you can do better. What is the "purpose" and what is "according"?
Wrong! A dog is not a robot and has a mind of its own. It has a personality. Yes, I get angry if I come home and he's chewed up my shoe. But he's an animal and I punish him and then forget about it.
Would I punish him if I had known in advance he would chew my shoe? No! Because if I had known in advance I should have removed my shoe. If I don't, it is my own fault and punishing the dog in spite of my knowledge is showing my own weakness, inconsistency and flawed personality.Red I disagree, alQuraan is not vague nor ambiguous, but people are. They follow what other humans have to say instead of following what their Creator asked them for. It is their problem that they mix the Truth with falsehood and get confuse about their Lord and His word.
It took years for you to read and write English words, how can you expect to understand the word of God in one shot!
Come on, try and be realistic, not dogmatic. I don't know of a single sentence which cannot be interpreted in at least 2 ways. Then you have completely nonsensical parts. You are not able to tell me what ALM or HM means, so why do you even propose realistically that the Koran is not vague and ambiguous?
This is your logic, but
How is my logics different from other logics? Are there different versions of logics?
alQuraan talks about the Truth which is also logical.
How so? What is the truth the Koran mentions? And what makes it the truth? What about "HM" is the truth?
For example, what about 113 is there anything logical or true?
1131 I seek refuge in the Lord of Daybreak
1132 From the evil of that which He created;
1133 From the evil of the darkness when it is intense,
1134 And from the evil of malignant witchcraft,
1135 And from the evil of the envier when he envieth.Just look at this! Look at the contents and tell me please what about this evil and witchcraft is true, logical and real? What about "the envier when he envieth" is logical and true?
Don't forget that Allah is not only the Creator of believers, so forgiving one for a sin and punishing another for the same sin is not God.
May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path pr
mmKhanAre you saying that a Muslim, a Christian and a Pagan all receive the same identical punishment for something like robbing a bank?
If a Muslim, a Christian and a Pagan go and rob a bank and afterwards ask to be forgiven, do all receive the same treatment?
Is my understanding of the Koran correct in that non-believers like me will invariably go to hell?
If yes, will I be joined at some stage by a believing Muslim who has contravened against what you called in the beginning the "purpose of being created"?
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Although the question might be interesting, we can never know the answer!
First of all, because we shall probably know it "on the other side" and nobody never returned from the Hereafter to tell us, and secondly, because it is ridiculous to guess what God might think, because we can never know that, no matter how hard we try.I am afraid you are 100% right. But I think it's useful to discuss it and then come to this conclusion rather than taking a fatalistic stance and rolling over.
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It's a pity you don't answer my questions.
The article is a nice summary and show the common mistake "The big bang only accounts for the creation of the physical universe, it does not account for where all that energy came from in the first place."
The Big Bang is a model, an attempt at explaining how something happened and when. There is no why. There is no question what was "before" that moment and what the origin of the matter and energy was.
But this is off-topic and of no consequence to anyone when it comes to belief.
Ive been trying to answer your questions to the best of my ability but I can't tell you why everything can't be made out of nothingness because there is no logic to it. There was a documentary on bbc4 about the possibilities of what there was before time and space and it pointed to something as they described was always there. I can't tell you why there doesn't have to be a creator for a creation because I can't make sense of that concept, hence why I didn't answer it.
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Ive been trying to answer your questions to the best of my ability but I can't tell you why everything can't be made out of nothingness because there is no logic to it. There was a documentary on bbc4 about the possibilities of what there was before time and space and it pointed to something as they described was always there. I can't tell you why there doesn't have to be a creator for a creation because I can't make sense of that concept, hence why I didn't answer it.
I was merely asking why you believe what you said.
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I was merely asking why you believe what you said.
Simply i find no two ways about it. The simple answer is i do not believe nothingness created us. It is obvious if nothing is in a state of unchangingness then nothing will happen. Clearly something changed, or some process was started from this 'nothingness' as you might think of it, or from the creator as i might call it - something which is independent of time and space and creation itself.
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Simply i find no two ways about it. The simple answer is i do not believe nothingness created us. It is obvious if nothing is in a state of unchangingness then nothing will happen. Clearly something changed, or some process was started from this 'nothingness' as you might think of it, or from the creator as i might call it - something which is independent of time and space and creation itself.
So who do you think believes "nothingness created" us?
Why is it obvious?
What changed so clearly?
Exactly! Why do you think it was "independent of time and space"? -
So who do you think believes "nothingness created" us?
Why is it obvious?
What changed so clearly?
Exactly! Why do you think it was "independent of time and space"?Something wanted this whole universe to be. Something thought to create all of this. It is independent of time and space because it isn't within our realm, dimensions or anything else. Whatever it is (the creator) is everywhere within this universe but is also not effected by the laws that it created itself. Why do i think it's obvious? I don't know how to answer you... it's just the way i think. Something was independent of time and space. Something created a process for all of this to happen. It's too much of a coincidence. It's like how our planets orbit, the number of gravity, mathematical theorems, etc etc. I can go on. It's too much of a coincidence to say that some randomness made this all happen in perfect measurements. What do you reckon it was then? I wasn't saying you call it "nothingness", i just don't currently know what you believe it is, hence why i'm asking ).
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Something wanted this whole universe to be. Something thought to create all of this. It is independent of time and space because it isn't within our realm, dimensions or anything else. Whatever it is (the creator) is everywhere within this universe but is also not effected by the laws that it created itself. Why do i think it's obvious? I don't know how to answer you... it's just the way i think. Something was independent of time and space. Something created a process for all of this to happen. It's too much of a coincidence. It's like how our planets orbit, the number of gravity, mathematical theorems, etc etc. I can go on. It's too much of a coincidence to say that some randomness made this all happen in perfect measurements. What do you reckon it was then? I wasn't saying you call it "nothingness", i just don't currently know what you believe it is, hence why i'm asking ).
I know what you are saying. I am a biology major and if I was even the smallest bit in doubt about a God before, I definitely wasn't after studying botany, human physio, genetics...all of that. how does a seed know HOW to grow into a tree? it has to be intelligent design...not just random design or evolutionary design...even the inner workings of our bodies...how does homeostasis maintain itself? if our body temp is too hot, we die, if it is too cold, we die, if our pH is too high or low, we die---there are millions of synapses and connnections in our brain..and surely if one connection didn't fire off a neural impulse to tell us to breathe or do this or do that, we would die...everything is too perfectly balanced to be a mere mishap, or process of evolutionary elimination. especially when you look at the universe as you said ...too far from the sun we are a ball of ice...too close to the sun we are a ball of smoke lol, I mean its crazy. I love astronomy so much I wish I would've majored in it...I need to get a high powered telescope one of these days.
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I know what you are saying. I am a biology major and if I was even the smallest bit in doubt about a God before, I definitely wasn't after studying botany, human physio, genetics...all of that. how does a seed know HOW to grow into a tree? it has to be intelligent design...not just random design or evolutionary design...even the inner workings of our bodies...how does homeostasis maintain itself? if our body temp is too hot, we die, if it is too cold, we die, if our pH is too high or low, we die---there are millions of synapses and connnections in our brain..and surely if one connection didn't fire off a neural impulse to tell us to breathe or do this or do that, we would die...everything is too perfectly balanced to be a mere mishap, or process of evolutionary elimination. especially when you look at the universe as you said ...too far from the sun we are a ball of ice...too close to the sun we are a ball of smoke lol, I mean its crazy. I love astronomy so much I wish I would've majored in it...I need to get a high powered telescope one of these days.
Selam ),
You should buy a telescope ). I recently bought one and its wicked. Although currently I fail at seeing other planets even zomming into the moon is incredible for me xD. And thats exactly my point. Everything is too... good. I was even talking to my dad about how the moon came about and how it is essential to our lives. A few cms out of sync because of its circular velocity in its orbit slowly slowly pull it away would cause many countries to be flooded under. We even sleep and people still don't 100% know why.. I just think it's too much of a coincidence by a long shot.
peace