What happens to a Muslim who does not pray?
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No further comment on the list of unrealistic assertions?
Yes, quite right. I am trying to understand what people believe and why. I believe what I have a reason to believe. I believe my car is in the garage even though I don't have a camera confirming this. I believe it will rain this week. I believe that the sun will be there tomorrow. I believe supernovas occur. I believe the Higgs Field exists.
I didn't. I said the 2 galaxies will collide.
I did not. This is you jumping to conclusions.
Define creation.
Explain why you think the Universe or life was created.
Explain the mechanism and process. You must have thought about this too.Why?
Who defined this?Fine.
Sorry, I'm assuming you meant this list?
Something wanted this whole universe to be -> Arguable in the sense that either something wanted this universe to 'be' or it was an accident
Something thought to create all of this -> Once again, can be that something wanted this to happen, or it was a random accident
It is independent of time and space -> From our current knowledge, time and space was created after the "big bang (if this is what happened). There was something before that had to create this "big bang", hence you come to the conclusion that this something is independent of time and space
not effected by the laws that it created itself -> depends how you see this, the creator tells us that (3030) god never changes its laws of nature, so god will not break the laws that have been put in place. If you want to think of this as the creator being effected or not by its laws, thats up to you .
Something was independent of time and space (discussed above)
It's too much of a coincidence -> this is my personal observation based on how this world has become - i could explain further if you want
It's too much of a coincidence to say that some randomness made this all happen in perfect measurements -> When i say perfect measurements, i'm talking about how everything is perfectly synchronized. If you want to call it "randomness", then calculate the probability of randomness perfecting such certain measurements (i'm sure you can name a few).
how the moon came about -> My point was more on how the moon affects us and if we need a moon or not. Of course we need a moon and how it came about was simply the creator's laws coming into play.
A few cms out of sync -> You reckon this is unrealistic? Maybe in your country you can't watch documentaries from BBC, but if you looked this up, you could know that the moon is the object that creates the tides going in and out, and if the moon moves away a few cms, it will cause many countries to be fully submersed in water. This is a fact, no religious hanky panky .
I just think it's too much of a coincidence -> haha i noticed i said this too often
"I didn't. I said the 2 galaxies will collide." -> How do you know? It's a prediction. A bit like saying that someone playing football shoots towards the goal. It's on course to go in, but someone does a sliding tackle and causes a deflection. Same concept here. 2 galaxies may be on course for collision, but who says that something won't destroy this Earth before that even happens?
My apologies if i jumped to any conclusions. I get lost sometimes with the number of "whys" you ask and sometimes can't see what you actually think sometimes - by the way, i think "whys" are good .
Define creation = The action or process of bringing something into existence (does google count angel
Hmm, you want my opinion on why the universe or life was created? Some things i cannot comprehend. This is quite a big question to ask. I can't give you a serious in-depth answer as it's even difficult for me to explain "why" the universe was made. What i can tell you is i think that we are not the only people in this universe with similar questions or curiosity, so i believe that it's not only us who need to be abiding by the creators laws in the universe, why create it? Hmm it's difficult to answer. I'll be honest, i don't think i can word my thoughts good enough to answer the question of why life was created. It's too complicated for me to word in my brain let alone type it out, so sorry .
The mechanism and process of the creation of the universe to me seems like this. I believe that there was a "big bang" OR a cyclic universe (regardless of this i believe an initial big bang happened). Now after this big bang, which i believe was eloquently devised, there was a fraction more matter than anti-matter. Because of this, the process of creating occurs. Higgs boson is said to be the particle responsible for the mass in every object of the universe, so this obviously was created for that purpose. Then, after that, the universe expanded very quickly, planets were formed using the basic materials that we know of. We have our natural forces like gravity being one of the most important i can think of. Then once Earth was formed along with the moon which, as far as i know from research, was formed by actually being a comet colliding with the Earth (not the Earth we know of today) and because of friction, both moon and Earth were spherical due to circular velocity consisting of the gravitational pull that the Earth does towards the moon and that the moon slightly does to the Earth. The planet cools down, elements such as water emerge etc etc. I'm not going to go into detail because i'm not scientifically well equipped enough nor studied it deep enough to explain the whole process confidently. Hope that wasn't too much of a fail of my beliefs.
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Hi, StopS,
I am so pleased that you have responded to my post!! Because You have proven what exactly I thought of you. As you have admitted with your own words that YOU DO NOT BELIEVE EXISTING OF GOD and YOU ARE SEEKING REALISTIC ALTERNATIVE and asking me to provide that for you!! What I wrote was not an assay. It was a post written directly to you that may be,but just may be I might make you see the GOD you do not believe exist. Did I managed that? Unfortunately NO,as your reply post proved. If you are that much blind,even you can not see the God/Creator by just LOOKING AT YOURSELF, than I rest my case and can not do anything anymore for you pal. When I say''How can one have a civilized and realistic discussion with somebody who does not even recognize/believe Existing of God/Creator?'' That is exactly what I referred to somebody like you. Simply that would not be called discussion or any realistic debate! Because there is a BIG missing factor which is a core of the case''GOD/CREATOR'' that you do not believe in any form. Do you think you can have discussion with anyone with that sort of mind set? I don't think so. As I said you are a big empty box in a human body! Do I feel sorry for you? In some respect very much. God is a Knower. I just pray he shows his mercy and forgiveness on you and all of us.Let me make this clear, when I said to you''YOU DO NOT BELIEVE EXISTING OF GOD/HIGH AND MIGHTY'' Your response was''That is not true. And I have said so several times. If you are going to analyse me provide a critic I would stay with the fact not fabricated stuff ok''
Than I said'' If someone does not recognize existing of God how can he have a healthy discussion, that is beyond my comprehension and would be anybodies for that matter'' Your response was'' It is called objectivity seeing our natural environment bla,bla,''
Than after all the explanation regarding existing of God, I said''So how does it makes sense not to believe or question of existing of God''
Your response was'' I have no idea. can you tell me?Why I should believe something without evidence, etc.etc.''
Look pal, that is exactly my point. YOU DO NOT HAVE ANY BELIEF THAT GOD/CREATOR EXIST. You have been contradicting yourself in every sentence you put here,you are in denial of your own being and looking for a escape route by saying a few nonsensical words it is called objectivity of our natural environment etc. What are you talking about. Just come clean and be honest with yourself. Bottom line is,
if the starting point not to believe or dismissing of existing of God/Creator and commence with the discussion, will be flawed and won't make any sense or meaning. Furthermore I don't know how old you are but you have lots of ground to make up in order to start talk about anything. It is very much obvious that you do not have any belief existing of God behind all of this,us,universe and everything else on it. So, Whatever I say here won't make any different.. however one thing I like to say to you, which I said it before, JUST LOOK AT YOURSELF! AS A WHOLE. Believe me you will know whether GOD/CREATOR is exist or not. Anything created without a doubt has a CREATOR.
WE JUST DON'T COME OR DID NOT COME AS A PACKAGE FROM EBAY OR AMAZON!!!
If you wish to entertain people here as a comedian that is your proagrative but as far as I am concerned I am done with you,pal.
Be in peace with yourself. -
Sorry, I'm assuming you meant this list?
Precisely. Now, if you look at what you have written, you will see that it is a mix of what you've heard and most is what you think is what happened. Because you don't have the facts, some of the things don't makes sense to you. And that's why you succumb to simplistic argumentation which would be unnecessary if you just looked up a few things. Example you say that "if the moon moves away a few cms, it will cause many countries to be fully submersed in water". That is so bizarre. Are you aware that the moon shifts its position by something like 50.000 kilometres each year? Are you aware the moon is shifting orbit and is offset by 5 degrees? There is nothing perfect in space! You are listening to misconceptions, not facts.
Some planets we know of in our own solar system have barely completed an orbit since we started looking at them, yet we know they are in an orbit around our Sun. How do we know this? Mathematics. How do we know the Universe is expanding? Mathematics? How do we know the expansion is still accelerating? Mathematics. How do we know Andromeda is on a collision course with the Milky Way? Mathematics.
You said that creation = bringing something into existence
Do you know this does not really exist? You can't "bring something into existence" or can you tell me when a water puddle is "brought something into existence"? Or when a beach is "brought something into existence"?You use words such as "chance" and "probability" and when I ask you for the process without chance and high probabilities you don't explain the process of the start of our Universe, but everything that happened much later, using physical science developed by humans. Did you notice that? What about the beginning?
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Hi, StopS,
I am so pleased that you have responded to my post!! Because You have proven what exactly I thought of you. As you have admitted with your own words that YOU DO NOT BELIEVE EXISTING OF GOD and YOU ARE SEEKING REALISTIC ALTERNATIVE and asking me to provide that for you!!Because that would be so unlike me, I will have to ask you to provide evidence. To my knowledge I have NEVER ever said what you claim.
What I wrote was not an assay. It was a post written directly to you that may be,but just may be I might make you see the GOD you do not believe exist. Did I managed that? Unfortunately NO,as your reply post proved. If you are that much blind,even you can not see the God/Creator by just LOOKING AT YOURSELF, than I rest my case and can not do anything anymore for you pal. When I say''How can one have a civilized and realistic discussion with somebody who does not even recognize/believe Existing of God/Creator?'' That is exactly what I referred to somebody like you. Simply that would not be called discussion or any realistic debate! Because there is a BIG missing factor which is a core of the case''GOD/CREATOR'' that you do not believe in any form. Do you think you can have discussion with anyone with that sort of mind set? I don't think so. As I said you are a big empty box in a human body! Do I feel sorry for you? In some respect very much. God is a Knower. I just pray he shows his mercy and forgiveness on you and all of us.
If you fail at providing evidence for the existence of a god and only pray and hope, I can't do anything more, can I?
Let me make this clear, when I said to you''YOU DO NOT BELIEVE EXISTING OF GOD/HIGH AND MIGHTY'' Your response was''That is not true. And I have said so several times. If you are going to analyse me provide a critic I would stay with the fact not fabricated stuff ok''
Than I said'' If someone does not recognize existing of God how can he have a healthy discussion, that is beyond my comprehension and would be anybodies for that matter'' Your response was'' It is called objectivity seeing our natural environment bla,bla,''
Than after all the explanation regarding existing of God, I said''So how does it makes sense not to believe or question of existing of God''
Your response was'' I have no idea. can you tell me?Why I should believe something without evidence, etc.etc.''
Look pal, that is exactly my point. YOU DO NOT HAVE ANY BELIEF THAT GOD/CREATOR EXIST.Could you PLEASE stop misrepresenting what I say?! You need to learn to be more precise. If I say something, I am saying this for a reason and not for you to see what you want to see and understand what you want to understand.
You have been contradicting yourself in every sentence you put here
Proof? DON'T just throw stuff around, prove it! You look pretty silly just inventing things and making stuff up without anything to show for it!
,you are in denial of your own being and looking for a escape route by saying a few nonsensical words it is called objectivity of our natural environment etc. What are you talking about.
Oh boy, another one of these smart Alecs. Now you are telling me what I think? You don't have the brain for that, my china.
Just come clean and be honest with yourself. Bottom line is, if the starting point not to believe or dismissing of existing of God/Creator and commence with the discussion, will be flawed and won't make any sense or meaning.
What part of "But why don't you provide examples so that both of us know what you are talking about?" don't you understand?
What part of "If you are going to analyse me and provide a critique I would stay with the facts and not fabricate stuff, ok?" don't you understand?
What part of "Maybe you believe this - but why should I?" don't you understand?
What part of "How do you have this amazing knowledge about what a god wants and expects??" don't you understand?
What part of "Can you tell me?" don't you understand?
What part of "Can you tell me why I should believe something without evidence?" don't you understand?
What part of "So why do you question my approach without providing a realistic alternative?" don't you understand?You fail big time at making any kind of rational argument and just stand there like a stubborn kid, arms crossed and stomping your feet.
Furthermore I don't know how old you are but you have lots of ground to make up in order to start talk about anything. It is very much obvious that you do not have any belief existing of God behind all of this,us,universe and everything else on it. So, Whatever I say here won't make any different.. however one thing I like to say to you, which I said it before, JUST LOOK AT YOURSELF! AS A WHOLE. Believe me you will know whether GOD/CREATOR is exist or not. Anything created without a doubt has a CREATOR.
WE JUST DON'T COME OR DID NOT COME AS A PACKAGE FROM EBAY OR AMAZON!!!
If you wish to entertain people here as a comedian that is your proagrative but as far as I am concerned I am done with you,pal.
Be in peace with yourself.So now that you still have not answered my questions, I suggest you either try again or leave it. And the word I reckon you are trying to find in your childish hate rant is "prerogative".
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Precisely. Now, if you look at what you have written, you will see that it is a mix of what you've heard and most is what you think is what happened. Because you don't have the facts, some of the things don't makes sense to you. And that's why you succumb to simplistic argumentation which would be unnecessary if you just looked up a few things. Example you say that "if the moon moves away a few cms, it will cause many countries to be fully submersed in water". That is so bizarre. Are you aware that the moon shifts its position by something like 50.000 kilometres each year? Are you aware the moon is shifting orbit and is offset by 5 degrees? There is nothing perfect in space! You are listening to misconceptions, not facts.
Some planets we know of in our own solar system have barely completed an orbit since we started looking at them, yet we know they are in an orbit around our Sun. How do we know this? Mathematics. How do we know the Universe is expanding? Mathematics? How do we know the expansion is still accelerating? Mathematics. How do we know Andromeda is on a collision course with the Milky Way? Mathematics.
You said that creation = bringing something into existence
Do you know this does not really exist? You can't "bring something into existence" or can you tell me when a water puddle is "brought something into existence"? Or when a beach is "brought something into existence"?You use words such as "chance" and "probability" and when I ask you for the process without chance and high probabilities you don't explain the process of the start of our Universe, but everything that happened much later, using physical science developed by humans. Did you notice that? What about the beginning?
I was simply going by what I currently and VERY recently thought i'd "learnt" about the moon. Unfortunately, i sometimes don't have the time or patience to keep looking at many sites and judge by which one is more correct than the other. Judging from the documentary, it could have been a misconception. Nothing new really since i saw a documentary about Muslim women was such a load of crud it's unbelievable. The author of the documentary explained that if the moon keeps moving further and further away, countries could be flooded. I might have got the "few cms" part confused as i was merely recalling the documentary from memory which was a while ago, people do make mistakes in their knowledge sometimes. But one thing is for sure, of course the moon causes tidal waves (as well as our sun) and if the moon ends up too far away from Earth (which, taking into account the Earth isn't destroyed some other alternative way by then) then if we essentially had no moon, Earth will not have those forces acting on its crust and will change tectonic forces on the mantal. Volcanic and earthquake activity could be affected by this but theres a long way to go about this.
What's your point? I agree mathematics is very useful as it explains the natural laws of our universe...
In terms of your definition of "creation"
creation
n- the act or process of creating
- the fact of being created or produced
- something that has been brought into existence or created, esp a product of human intelligence or imagination
- the whole universe, including the world and all the things in it
What definition are you happy with if any? Do you wish to create your own definition giveup ?
What do you want to know about the beginning of the universe? A supposed big bang occurred and everything started rapidly expanding. Scientists cannot tell you what happened before the beginning of the universe. I was reading a piece from Stephen Hawking
"The irregularities in the early universe will mean that some regions will have slightly higher density than others. The gravitational attraction of the extra density will slow the expansion of the region, and can eventually cause the region to collapse to form galaxies and stars. So look well at the map of the microwave sky. It is the blue print for all the structure in the universe. We are the product of quantum fluctuations in the very early universe. God really does play dice.
We have made tremendous progress in cosmology in the last hundred years. The General Theory of Relativity and the discovery of the expansion of the universe shattered the old picture of an ever existing and ever lasting universe. Instead, general relativity predicted that the universe, and time itself, would begin in the big bang. It also predicted that time would come to an end in black holes. The discovery of the cosmic microwave background and observations of black holes support these conclusions. This is a profound change in our picture of the universe and of reality itself. Although the General Theory of Relativity predicted that the universe must have come from a period of high curvature in the past, it could not predict how the universe would emerge from the big bang. Thus general relativity on its own cannot answer the central question in cosmology Why is the universe the way it is? However, if general relativity is combined with quantum theory, it may be possible to predict how the universe would start. It would initially expand at an ever increasing rate.
During this so called inflationary period, the marriage of the two theories predicted that small fluctuations would develop and lead to the formation of galaxies, stars, and all the other structure in the universe. This is confirmed by observations of small non uniformities in the cosmic microwave background, with exactly the predicted properties. So it seems we are on our way to understanding the origin of the universe, though much more work will be needed. A new window on the very early universe will be opened when we can detect gravitational waves by accurately measuring the distances between space craft. Gravitational waves propagate freely to us from earliest times, unimpeded by any intervening material. By contrast, light is scattered many times by free electrons. The scattering goes on until the electrons freeze out, after 300,000 years."
I didn't have the time to read up specific details about General Relativity and explain it all so i simplified it by saying "Yes, big bang occurred then expansion". I do have a pretty scientific view of the beginning of the universe which in no way contradicts there being a creator. I can't give you more about the beginning. I don't want this becoming a physics lesson. laugh
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I was simply going by what I currently and VERY recently thought i'd "learnt" about the moon.
That would explain it, yes.
What's your point? I agree mathematics is very useful as it explains the natural laws of our universe...
You asked why do I think we know some things. I showed you.
In terms of your definition of "creation"
What definition are you happy with if any? Do you wish to create your own definition giveup ?
The problem is that some dictionaries contain religious references to pander to the Christians in the US. I gave you an example for the inconsistency of this idea,
What do you want to know about the beginning of the universe? A supposed big bang occurred and everything started rapidly expanding. Scientists cannot tell you what happened before the beginning of the universe. I was reading a piece from Stephen Hawking
I was looking for a description based on the Koran or what you think. Not the part after the Big Bang, but the part leading up to it.
I didn't have the time to read up specific details about General Relativity and explain it all so i simplified it by saying "Yes, big bang occurred then expansion". I do have a pretty scientific view of the beginning of the universe which in no way contradicts there being a creator. I can't give you more about the beginning. I don't want this becoming a physics lesson. laugh
I agree. We are spending much too much time on science. I am not so interested in that. Could you go back to what happens if you never fast and never go on Hajj or Umrah?
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That would explain it, yes.
You asked why do I think we know some things. I showed you.
The problem is that some dictionaries contain religious references to pander to the Christians in the US. I gave you an example for the inconsistency of this idea,
I was looking for a description based on the Koran or what you think. Not the part after the Big Bang, but the part leading up to it.
I agree. We are spending much too much time on science. I am not so interested in that. Could you go back to what happens if you never fast and never go on Hajj or Umrah?
Thank God, I was worried the thread was getting off topic. Anyway I understand your points about the definition of creation but it means nothing more to be than something "being" for an initial time period
Anyway....I'm afraid you might have very different beliefs of what Hajj (as you for some reason incorrectly capitalise it) and Umrah. It would help me understand what you mean if you actually gave the most logically correctly translations of those words. I can't recall the word Umrah, probably because I did not read the Qur'an in arabic. However in terms of the festival/debate (whichever translation you prefer) then I think you might need to go back to basics before even asking this question. Do you believe "hajj" is some kind of paganistic pilgrimage to Mecca or do you believe it is a festival/place of gathering for all mankind to be together and witness the beauty of what God has bestowed upon us bybeing ttogether, eating together, discussing issues etc. By the way I hope you know thr festival/debate is for all of mankind and I mean ALL of mankind - whatever the hell is happening in Mecca is nowhere near that as im sure you're aware of. Anyway you are recommended to join in as it's a happy event but if you don't go, I don't see a relationship between "hajj" and hell....
Sorry for any typos (on my phone).
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Thank God, I was worried the thread was getting off topic. Anyway I understand your points about the definition of creation but it means nothing more to be than something "being" for an initial time period
Anyway....I'm afraid you might have very different beliefs of what Hajj (as you for some reason incorrectly capitalise it) and Umrah. It would help me understand what you mean if you actually gave the most logically correctly translations of those words. I can't recall the word Umrah, probably because I did not read the Qur'an in arabic. However in terms of the festival/debate (whichever translation you prefer) then I think you might need to go back to basics before even asking this question. Do you believe "hajj" is some kind of paganistic pilgrimage to Mecca or do you believe it is a festival/place of gathering for all mankind to be together and witness the beauty of what God has bestowed upon us bybeing ttogether, eating together, discussing issues etc. By the way I hope you know thr festival/debate is for all of mankind and I mean ALL of mankind - whatever the hell is happening in Mecca is nowhere near that as im sure you're aware of. Anyway you are recommended to join in as it's a happy event but if you don't go, I don't see a relationship between "hajj" and hell....
Sorry for any typos (on my phone).
Good question.
I have the impression from my reading the Koran that there are several requirements for followers of this book. One of them is a pilgrimage. This is why I think this
2226-28
And (remember) when We pointed out for Ibrahim the place of the House (of Allah) saying, Do not associate anything with Me as My partner, and purify My House for those who make Tawaf (circumambulation around it), and those who perform Qiyam (standing up in worship) and those who perform Ruku= (bowing down) and Sujud (prostration so that they witness benefits for them, and recite Allah?s name in specified days, over the provision He gave them from the cattle. So, eat thereof and feed the distressed, the poor.Am I wrong in thinking this to be in connection with Hajj?
2189 They are fixed seasons for mankind and for the pilgrimage.
2197 The Hajj is (to be performed in) the months that are well-known. So whoever undertakes Hajj in them, there should be no obscenity, no sin, no quarrel in the Hajj.
2203 Recite the name of Allah during the given number of days. Then whoever is early in leaving after two days, there is no sin on him, and whoever leaves later, there is no sin on him, if he is God-fearing. Fear Allah and be sure that you are going to be gathered before Him.Isn?t that why these months are also known as months of abstention from violence and dissent?
As far as I know Mecca is only really mentioned once in the Koran in a side note. So in my eyes, Mecca does not feature in Islam. Whether the rituals are "paganistic" is not important for me. I would imagine the atmosphere must be gigantic, but as we all know I am not allowed anywhere near that place.
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You are also falling into misconceptions. Ofph.. gosh, not a nice translation at all, one that hasn't been studied in context or with logic. Just to let you know, "Mecca" is not mentioned in the quran once. If you mean "makkah" then you are mistakingly translating this as a pronoun rather than a noun. Look at the one time "makkah (makkat)" is mentioned and translate it using the word that it ACTUALLY means i.e. destruction. See as follows
- And it is He Who has restrained their hands from you and your hands from them in the midst of destruction (makkat) after that He gave you the victory over them. And Allah sees well all that ye do.
Mecca is not one of the places to have the festival/debate. "Hajj" can be taken place in many places. Mecca is not one of them because it contradicts many requirements in the quran. The festival/debate allows people of ALL mankind as i previously told you. Do you not see the signs that say "Moslems" in one direction and "Non Moslems" in another direction on the road signs in Saudi? Does the creator prescribe a certain way of dressing for instance in white shawls? Does the creator talk about a black stone that has to be kissed and does the creator talk of walking around some house 7 times to celebrate (as hindus used to do with a birth of a new born child). Anyway, the translation you have got is a VERY traditional translation that clearly has been based on false historical information. Here is a better translation of the verses. You can analyse the arabic yourself if you want
- And when we assigned to Ibrahim the house's place THAT DO NOT PARTNER WITH ME A THING, and cleanse my house for the passers by, and the remaining, and the humbly hearing and obeying.
2227 Call out to people with the feast/festival, they will come to you walking and on every transport, they will come from every deep enclosure.
2228 So that they may witness benefits for themselves and recall God's name in the appointed days over what He has provided for them of the animal livestock. So eat from it and feed the needy and the poor.
In terms of the fixed times, i do agree that these are certain events in certain time periods. A long time ago i read the whole of a thread that really enlightened me on what "hajj" was. I never believed in Mecca being anything to do with the creator, so i found this link especially useful. I'd read it whenever you have time. It's a good debate.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597976.0
You also might be thinking what do some things like refraining from sexual intercourse have anything to do with a festival/feast. As someone quoted which actually made me laugh but was true "It is like when you go for dinner at someone's house or people come for dinner at your house. Do you sneak with your wife to one of the rooms and have sexual intercourse?" This is obvious really... well for me anyway &..
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You are also falling into misconceptions. Ofph.. gosh, not a nice translation at all, one that hasn't been studied in context or with logic. Just to let you know, "Mecca" is not mentioned in the quran once. If you mean "makkah" then you are mistakingly translating this as a pronoun rather than a noun. Look at the one time "makkah (makkat)" is mentioned and translate it using the word that it ACTUALLY means i.e. destruction. See as follows
- And it is He Who has restrained their hands from you and your hands from them in the midst of destruction (makkat) after that He gave you the victory over them. And Allah sees well all that ye do.
Mecca is not one of the places to have the festival/debate. "Hajj" can be taken place in many places. Mecca is not one of them because it contradicts many requirements in the quran. The festival/debate allows people of ALL mankind as i previously told you. Do you not see the signs that say "Moslems" in one direction and "Non Moslems" in another direction on the road signs in Saudi? Does the creator prescribe a certain way of dressing for instance in white shawls? Does the creator talk about a black stone that has to be kissed and does the creator talk of walking around some house 7 times to celebrate (as hindus used to do with a birth of a new born child).
OK, fine by me.
Anyway, the translation you have got is a VERY traditional translation that clearly has been based on false historical information.
There is no historical information, so anyone can interpret anything the way they want.
Here is a better translation of the verses. You can analyse the arabic yourself if you want
- And when we assigned to Ibrahim the house's place THAT DO NOT PARTNER WITH ME A THING, and cleanse my house for the passers by, and the remaining, and the humbly hearing and obeying.
2227 Call out to people with the feast/festival, they will come to you walking and on every transport, they will come from every deep enclosure.
2228 So that they may witness benefits for themselves and recall God's name in the appointed days over what He has provided for them of the animal livestock. So eat from it and feed the needy and the poor.
I don't see how this is any better or worse. What exactly does "we assigned to Ibrahim the house's place THAT DO NOT PARTNER WITH ME A THING" mean? Ibrahim was assigned a "house's place"? What is that?
In terms of the fixed times, i do agree that these are certain events in certain time periods. A long time ago i read the whole of a thread that really enlightened me on what "hajj" was. I never believed in Mecca being anything to do with the creator, so i found this link especially useful. I'd read it whenever you have time. It's a good debate.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597976.0
You also might be thinking what do some things like refraining from sexual intercourse have anything to do with a festival/feast. As someone quoted which actually made me laugh but was true "It is like when you go for dinner at someone's house or people come for dinner at your house. Do you sneak with your wife to one of the rooms and have sexual intercourse?" This is obvious really... well for me anyway &..
So hajj is actually just a party where many people get together. A BBQ. Well it must be in a lonely place and go on for some time or women would not be limited to going with a guardian.
In my eyes the analogy with the dinner party fails completely because you don't have tribes fighting each other in a house over dinner. This seems to be more like Woodstock or, even better, the ideals of the Olympic Games where nations were commissioned to peace and peaceful competition. -
OK, fine by me.
There is no historical information, so anyone can interpret anything the way they want.
I don't see how this is any better or worse. What exactly does "we assigned to Ibrahim the house's place THAT DO NOT PARTNER WITH ME A THING" mean? Ibrahim was assigned a "house's place"? What is that?
So hajj is actually just a party where many people get together. A BBQ. Well it must be in a lonely place and go on for some time or women would not be limited to going with a guardian.
In my eyes the analogy with the dinner party fails completely because you don't have tribes fighting each other in a house over dinner. This seems to be more like Woodstock or, even better, the ideals of the Olympic Games where nations were commissioned to peace and peaceful competition.Essentially I believe the verse about Abraham is telling us that God is simply telling him to serve God alone in the house he was in and serve none except the one. Believe what you wish about hajj if you wish to think it's pilgrimage. You know that link I sent you? I suggest you read each post to see for yourself. I can only recommend reading the discussion. It is up to you - simple.
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Essentially I believe the verse about Abraham is telling us that God is simply telling him to serve God alone in the house he was in and serve none except the one. Believe what you wish about hajj if you wish to think it's pilgrimage. You know that link I sent you? I suggest you read each post to see for yourself. I can only recommend reading the discussion. It is up to you - simple.
Thanks. That's the way I understood it and that's what I've done. My reply was actually meant as a question as I have no opinion on this.
My goal is to understand what is accepted in the form of worship and what happens if a believer/follower/Muslim/submitter does not conform. You are not in favour of pilgrimage.
Maybe I need to throw out all my preconceived ideas I have learned about Islam and start from scratch. The more I learn the less I know. -
Thanks. That's the way I understood it and that's what I've done. My reply was actually meant as a question as I have no opinion on this.
My goal is to understand what is accepted in the form of worship and what happens if a believer/follower/Muslim/submitter does not conform. You are not in favour of pilgrimage.
Maybe I need to throw out all my preconceived ideas I have learned about Islam and start from scratch. The more I learn the less I know.It feels that way when you have preconceived notions that you may have been told when you were younger or what you've seen (...
That's the problem. Lucky I wasn't born in an islamic country (the word "islamic" to me also doesn't exist and is just a made up word quite frankly ) so i had more preconceived ideas about the bible. My mum used to take me church to pray. I prayed to "God" (the only word for the creator that i knew at the time) whilst everyone else prayed to Jesus. I refused at a young age but i used to do the sign of the cross as i didn't know what it was for and use "holy" water etc. I threw all of it out of the window when i got older and realised what i was doing and stuck with a few things like being righteous, charitable, humble, keepy my dignity and be chaste, don't damage myself with alcohol or smoking (eeek!) or drugs, be just, not eat pork (i used to have my sausages when i was younger but i never liked pork that much due to the smell and pinkish colour so i stopped eating it... and also after finding out the skin of a sausage is from intestines |....) and thats how i stuck. Then one day i wanted to read the quran because i was curious what "muslims" followed. They would say if you are a christian you'd go hell. Call me ignorant but because my mum was a catholic and my dad was muslim (ish) i used to say im half and half to make everyone happy because frankly, i never gave a s**t about labels as you know ) so i told people when i got older i then told people i simply was a believer in the one god, as i always naturally have been. I studied such this as Further Mathematics and Physics which only increased my belief in the one creator and how intelligently designed everything was. I remember finishing the quran in English and thinking "wow.... i have alot in common with a believer described in this", minus a few mistranslations that i looked up and confirmed were bullcrap (i.e. hitting women) then i was quite convinced that this isn't any random book. The richness of the language was quite breathtaking. The FIRST thing you HAVE to do when reading the quran is to remove ANY preconceptions WHATSOEVER. Otherwise, you will read it with those preconceptions. Your interpretation will match those preconceptions. Remember what you told me about not being eisegesis .
peace
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It feels that way when you have preconceived notions that you may have been told when you were younger or what you've seen ...
That's the problem. Lucky I wasn't born in an islamic country (the word "islamic" to me also doesn't exist and is just a made up word quite frankly ) so i had more preconceived ideas about the bible. My mum used to take me church to pray. I prayed to "God" (the only word for the creator that i knew at the time) whilst everyone else prayed to Jesus. I refused at a young age but i used to do the sign of the cross as i didn't know what it was for and use "holy" water etc. I threw all of it out of the window when i got older and realised what i was doing and stuck with a few things like being righteous, charitable, humble, keepy my dignity and be chaste, don't damage myself with alcohol or smoking (eeek!) or drugs, be just, not eat pork (i used to have my sausages when i was younger but i never liked pork that much due to the smell and pinkish colour so i stopped eating it... and also after finding out the skin of a sausage is from intestines |....) and thats how i stuck. Then one day i wanted to read the quran because i was curious what "muslims" followed. They would say if you are a christian you'd go hell. Call me ignorant but because my mum was a catholic and my dad was muslim (ish) i used to say im half and half to make everyone happy because frankly, i never gave a s**t about labels as you know ) so i told people when i got older i then told people i simply was a believer in the one god, as i always naturally have been. I studied such this as Further Mathematics and Physics which only increased my belief in the one creator and how intelligently designed everything was. I remember finishing the quran in English and thinking "wow.... i have alot in common with a believer described in this", minus a few mistranslations that i looked up and confirmed were bullcrap (i.e. hitting women) then i was quite convinced that this isn't any random book. The richness of the language was quite breathtaking. The FIRST thing you HAVE to do when reading the quran is to remove ANY preconceptions WHATSOEVER. Otherwise, you will read it with those preconceptions. Your interpretation will match those preconceptions. Remember what you told me about not being eisegesis .
peace
Thanks for your "confessional". I like hearing personal accounts like this.
Actually, I was referring to my preconceived Islamic tradition, which encompasses the ibn-Hisham sira as well as the various hadith collections. There's a convert and apologetic, Hamza Tzortzis, who said that the hadiths are actually revelation as well and to be taken as seriously as the Koran. So when you hear stuff like this and people discuss Islam using Koran and hadiths interchangeably, it gets confusing after a while.
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Thanks for your "confessional". I like hearing personal accounts like this.
Actually, I was referring to my preconceived Islamic tradition, which encompasses the ibn-Hisham sira as well as the various hadith collections. There's a convert and apologetic, Hamza Tzortzis, who said that the hadiths are actually revelation as well and to be taken as seriously as the Koran. So when you hear stuff like this and people discuss Islam using Koran and hadiths interchangeably, it gets confusing after a while.
I like being open and honest with my peers . Just thought I'd give a bit of background.
Anyway if you look up about, hadiths were written around 200 years after the approximate death of prophet Muhammad and were oral traditions. Some are just plain outrageous like how Ayesha (who I believe bukhari has made up) was washing the semen out of Muhammad's clothes hypno & -. Majority are just made up for satisfaction of the "powerful" imams that wanted power from controlling people. Try playing chinese whispers for 200 years from people who most likely never even knew the prophet or his actual family. If you read 99% of hadiths, they will contradict the quran and themselves left right center. Take the quran alone as it should be .
7185 Did they not look at the dominion of heavens and Earth, and all that God has created? Perhaps their time is drawing near; so in which narrations(hadiths) after this one will they believe?
316 And from the people, there are those who accept baseless narrations(hadiths) to mislead from the path of God without knowledge, and they take it as entertainment. These will have a humiliating retribution.
3923 God has sent down the best narration(hadith), a Scripture that is similar with two paths. The skins of those who reverence their Lord shiver from it, then their skins and their hearts soften up to the remembrance of God. Such is God's guidance; He guides with it whoever He wills. And for whomever God misguides, then none can guide him.
456 These are God's revelations that We recite to you with truth. So, in which narration(hadith) after God and His revelations do they believe?
There a few other verses but its painful using my phone to copy and paste them. The quran is the best hadith, the one source we should use. Is there other hadiths after this one we should consider? nope