A new look at the crucifixion verse
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Crucifying "the Body" of Jesus*
And for claiming that they killed the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the messenger of GOD. In fact, they never killed him, they never crucified him--they were made to think that they did. All factions who are disputing in this matter are full of doubt concerning this issue. They possess no knowledge; they only conjecture. For certain, they never killed him.*
*4157-158 Jesus, the real person, the soul, was raised in the same manner as in the death of any righteous person. Subsequently, his enemies arrested, tortured, and crucified his living, but empty, body. See Appendices 17 & 22, and the book "Jesus Myths and Message" by Lisa Spray (Universal Unity, Fremont, California, 1992).
http//www.masjidtucson.org/publications/books/jesus/index.html
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Crucifying "the Body" of Jesus*
And for claiming that they killed the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the messenger of GOD. In fact, they never killed him, they never crucified him - they were made to think that they did. All factions who are disputing in this matter are full of doubt concerning this issue. They possess no knowledge; they only conjecture. For certain, they never killed him.*
yes
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salam easternqibla
Sorry, sorry and sorry.
4-157 ......and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no knowledge, but only conjecture to follow....
i know it is very very very difficult for an old "christian" to accept that. Even Muslims don't Want.
There is another possibility. Whatever happened to Jesus, Issa could not have been there.Muslims have to forget Hadiths. Jews Have to forget Talmud and christians have to forget Emperor Constantin compilation.
Sorry. Very Sorry. You have probably to sacrify something from your old beliefs.
To be a a trustfull subject of the Great Lord is not easy. Not easy at all.Verses About Issa
Meriem is daughter of wife of Imran (3-35). Also daughter of Imran (66-12). Sister of Aaron (19-2. Aaron is brother of Moise (19-53 ; 20-30 ;23-45 ;25-35 ;28-34).
Old Testament also says that Imran has three childs (Miriam, Moses and Aaron).History of Jesus and history of Issa are total opposed. Jesus failed quite everything, even to give a book.
He was jailed, humiliated and killed.
Mother of Jesus seems also to have many other childs. Jesus is told to from descent of Abraham through his father who did nothing.In the opposite, Mother of Issa is Daughter of Imran whose family was, with family of Abraham, over all the people (3-33).
Issa was sustained by God (3-54 ; 5-110), triumphed during his life (61-14). Has propbably a peaceful death (3-55). Received also knowledge at maturity (Kahl in verses 3-46, 5-110 means with white hair). Was an example for Ban? Isra?l (43-59). He was never killed nor cricified (4-157). All bani israel believed in him before his death (4-159).Issa studied both Torah and Injeel (3-48; 5-46; 5-110; 57-274). Gospel was written after the death of Jesus.
Peace and sorry again
Indeed There are many ayas in the honorab le Qur'an that speak about 3isa and none, none of them sustains that he died violentily executed in any way or poin to his not dying peacefully, rather the opposite. The only time "crucifixion" or whatever is mentioned is to deny it and to say that all those who dispute about it know nothing and are based on conjecture. And out of this one time no indication whatsoever, as just said, just the opposite.
The only thing that seems to push some people to think of crucifixion as a reality is the compulsion to follow the gospels and not the Qur'an, and make the Qur'an fit them by hook or crook and identifying prophet 3isa with a man contemporary of Pontiuss Pilate in Palestine, who might have died crucified. The Qur'an does not certify any such person was 3isa and it insists all the controversy based on any such crucifixion and death is pure conjecture and lack of knowledge of any of it with any amount of certaint. If one gets rid of that compulsion of making the honourable Qur'an fit the gospels, nothing at all says or insinuate or leaves room in the Qur'an to take as a fact that 3isa underwent any such event.
Of course, since we have been fed that story of a crucified Jesus being prophet 3isa as a fact for ages, it is very shocking to shake ourselves out of it. But doing so brings peace of mind and better understanding of everything, that at least is my experience.
Salaam
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Salaam
Before asking what Happened exactly to jesus on the cross and discuss a verse where is to told that he was never on the cross, it would be interesting to answer the question
did a guy called Jesus of Nazareth or betleem existed ?
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ_myth_theoryStory of crucifixion came from Gospel. Jesus never read the Gospel while Issa studied the Injeel (3-48; 5-46; 5-110; 57-274).
So from a quranic point of view, Gospel is a collection of 4 books of Hadiths about a guy Called Jesus we are not even sure he existed.From a quranic point of view, we can find no romans, no bad jews who helped to jail Issa, no trace of any kind of humilation of Issa, no jail of Issa, no killing of Issa, no jail of Yahia and no killing of Yahia and we can not even find a link to Palestine.
Last and not least, How to explain theses similarities
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mithras_in_comparison_with_other_belief_systemsHistory of Jesus seems to be copy/paste from something older ??? ?
Peace and sorry again.
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And because of their proclamation for the public announcing; "Be informed that undoubtedly we have murdered Al-Maseiha Easa the son of Maryam the Messenger of Allah".
And the fact of the matter is that neither they had murdered him nor had put him to gallows but a presumptive confusion for the general public was caused.
And those who differ in this fact are indeed merely skeptical about it.
There is not all an iota of evidence based on authentic knowledge for them for this skepticism except that they purposely pursue conjectures-myths.
And they-the Romans did not murder him, absolutely surely.This statement quoted verbatim in Grand Qur'aan by the Ever Listener Allah is not of people roaming in streets but is a proclamation issued by the ruling/upper class/clergy of that time. Watch the words, their own confusion and uncertainty is evidently reflected by the words they chose. For giving news about present day occurrence no one uses the words of certainty "indeed, undoubtedly" for breaking the news. Such words and issuance of proclamation is needed and intended to clarify and convince only when general public is doubtful about some happening. They did not accept Easa as the Messenger of Allah but they used the title, name and status by which he was generally recognized in the society to remove the doubts and convince people that he has been murdered/got executed.
By this proclamation, breaking news the ruling elite of Jews were successful in creating a confusion since the whereabouts of Easa alahissalam were no more known to general public. He alongwith his companions had safely been escorted out of the city to eventually get assylum from Allah the Exalted at a high mountanious area.
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Indeed There are many ayas in the honorab le Qur'an that speak about 3isa and none, none of them sustains that he died violentily executed in any way or poin to his not dying peacefully, rather the opposite. The only time "crucifixion" or whatever is mentioned is to deny it and to say that all those who dispute about it know nothing and are based on conjecture. And out of this one time no indication whatsoever, as just said, just the opposite.
The only thing that seems to push some people to think of crucifixion as a reality is the compulsion to follow the gospels and not the Qur'an, and make the Qur'an fit them by hook or crook and identifying prophet 3isa with a man contemporary of Pontiuss Pilate in Palestine, who might have died crucified. The Qur'an does not certify any such person was 3isa and it insists all the controversy based on any such crucifixion and death is pure conjecture and lack of knowledge of any of it with any amount of certaint. If one gets rid of that compulsion of making the honourable Qur'an fit the gospels, nothing at all says or insinuate or leaves room in the Qur'an to take as a fact that 3isa underwent any such event.
Of course, since we have been fed that story of a crucified Jesus being prophet 3isa as a fact for ages, it is very shocking to shake ourselves out of it. But doing so brings peace of mind and better understanding of everything, that at least is my experience.
Salaam
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And for their covenant, We raised over them the Mount and (on the other occasion) We said "Enter the gate prostrating (or bowing) with humility;" and We commanded them "Transgress not (by doing worldly works on) the Sabbath (Saturday)." And We took from them a firm covenant .
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Because of their breaking the covenant, and of their rejecting the Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) of Allah, and of their killing the Prophets unjustly, and of their saying "Our hearts are wrapped (with coverings, i.e. we do not understand what the Messengers say)" - nay, Allah has set a seal upon their hearts because of their disbelief, so they believe not but a little.
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And because of their (Jews) disbelief and uttering against Maryam (Mary) a grave false charge (that she has committed illegal sexual intercourse);
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And because of their saying (in boast), "We killed Messiah 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), the Messenger of Allah," - but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but the resemblance of 'Iesa (Jesus) was put over another man (and they killed that man), and those who differ therein are full of doubts. They have no (certain) knowledge, they follow nothing but conjecture. For surely; they killed him not
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But Allah raised him 'Iesa (Jesus)] up (with his body and soul) unto Himself (and he is in the heavens). And Allah is Ever All-Powerful, All-Wise.
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And there is none of the people of the Scripture , but must believe in him 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), as only a Messenger of Allah and a human being], before his 'Iesa (Jesus) or a Jew's or a Christian's] death (at the time of the appearance of the angel of death). And on the Day of Resurrection, he 'Iesa (Jesus)] will be a witness against them.
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For the wrong-doing of the Jews We made unlawful to them certain good foods which has been lawful to them, and for their hindering many from Allah's Way;
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And their taking of Riba (usury) though they were forbidden from taking it and their devouring of men's substance wrongfully (bribery, etc.). And We have prepared for the disbelievers among them a painful torment.
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But those among them who are well-grounded in knowledge, and the believers, believe in what has been sent down to you (Muhammad ) and what was sent down before you, and those who perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat), and give Zakat and believe in Allah and in the Last Day, it is they to whom We shall give a great reward.
We can see the Quran was talking about the Jews here and not Christians.
Sanhedrin 106a . Says Jesus' mother was a whore "She who was the descendant of princes and governors played the harlot with carpenters." Also in footnote #2 to Shabbath 104b of the Soncino edition, it is stated that in the "uncensored" text of the Talmud it is written that Jesus mother, "Miriam the hairdresser," had sex with many men.
According to the Talmud, Jesus was executed by a proper rabbinical court for idolatry, inciting other Jews to idolatry, and contempt of rabbinical authority. All classical Jewish sources which mention his execution are quite happy to take responsibility for it; in the talmudic account the Romans are not even mentioned.
"The more popular accounts--which were nevertheless taken quite seriously--such as the notorious Toldot Yeshu are even worse, for in addition to the above crimes they accuse him of witchcraft. The very name 'Jesus' was for Jews a symbol of all that is abominable and this popular tradition still persists...
Note The Torah forbids the Jews from the devouring of Usury ("neshek".See the Old Testament Ex. 22 25;
Le. 25 36-37; De. 2319-20; Ne. 5 7/10; Ps. 15 5; Pr. 288http//www.revisionisthistory.org/talmudtruth.html
So the Quran was countering the Rabbinic claims of the events of Jesus and not the Gospel account. Its the Talmudic accounts the Quran was countering not the Gospel.
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Thank you for your lengthly reply. However, it misses the point entirely because it was the Romans who killed and crucified Jesus/Isa and not the Jews I, as a practising Orthodox Christian, can accept this passage as it is.
You did not comment on the fact that according to Christianity and any unbiased ("You have probably to sacrify something from your old beliefs. " reading of history that the Jews did not kill or crucify Jesus/Isa, but the Romans did. Therefore these verses do not go against the historical Christian understanding of the crucifixion!!
Peace!! Can you see what I am saying?
Richard
That is like a Zen koan.
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According to the Talmud, Jesus was executed by a proper rabbinical court for idolatry, inciting other Jews to idolatry, and contempt of rabbinical authority. All classical Jewish sources which mention his execution are quite happy to take responsibility for it; in the talmudic account the Romans are not even mentioned.
"The more popular accounts--which were nevertheless taken quite seriously--such as the notorious Toldot Yeshu are even worse, for in addition to the above crimes they accuse him of witchcraft. The very name 'Jesus' was for Jews a symbol of all that is abominable and this popular tradition still persists...
Bigmo, I salute you for such an excellent post (independent of the fact that it happens to side with my beliefs!!).
I found references to the talmud here
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_in_the_Talmud#Execution
which referenced a work supposed to have been written in the 10th century (so after the Quran), but which makes it even clearer that the Jews themselves killed him
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toledot_Yeshu
linking to
http//www.essene.com/History&Essenes/toled.htmRichard
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The standard Islamic interpretation of the crucifixion of Jesus is that someone else was given Jesus appearance. This idea was first mentioned about 100 years after Jesus was taken up to heaven
Wherefore he did not himself suffer death, but Simon, a certain man of Cyrene, being compelled, bore the cross in his stead; so that this latter being transfigured by him, that he might be thought to be Jesus, was crucified, through ignorance and error, while Jesus himself received the form of Simon, and, standing by, laughed at them.
Irenaeus, Against Heresies Book I, Chapter XXIV.Doctrines of Saturninus and Basilides.
http//www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.ix.ii.xxv.html
Something similar can be read in the The Second Treatise of the Great Seth; search for Simon.Like other Gnostic ideas, this seems really absurd. Yet if you read what I've been writing about Temple Symbolism then some pretty weird stuff can actually make sense. The thing about the substitution theory is that it is not unique to Jesus. Consider this story about Moses, after he had killed the Egyptian
A royal command was issued for the arrest of Moses, and he was condemned to death by the sword.
Moses mounted the scaffold, and a sword, sharp beyond compare, was set upon his neck ten times, but it always slipped away, because his neck was as hard as ivory. And a still greater miracle came to pass. God sent down the angel Michael, in the guise of a hangman, and the human hangman charged by Pharaoh with the execution was changed into the form of Moses. This spurious Moses the angel killed with the very sword with which the executioner had purposed to slay the intended victim. Meantime Moses took to flight. Pharaoh ordered his pursuit, but it was in vain. The king's troops were partly stricken with blindness partly with dumbness. The dumb could give no information about the abiding-place of Moses, and the blind, though they knew where it was, could not get to it.
The Legends Of The Jews, Volume II, IV Moses In Egypt, The Youth Of Moses
http//ancienthistory.about.com/library/bl/bl_text_jewslegends2d.htm#_ednTHE%20YOUTH%20OF%20MOSES
The Jewish Encyclopedia mentions this along with another story
http//www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/11049-moses#anchor9This incident is all more remarkable in that it contradicts both the Bible and the Quran which clearly imply that Moses fled without being caught (Exodus 215; Quran 2820-21). However, stories have meanings, and when such strange occurrences happen then it indicates not that we should reject it as being absurd or contradictory, but seek for its meaning.
Two identical likenesses? Sounds like the Day of Atonement to me
We now have to attend to some details in the ritual in the light of the underlying myth. First, there were two goats and, according to the Mishnah, they had to be identical (m.Yoma 6.1). Between them, they carried the ritual. This is important; the two goats were two aspects of one ritual and cannot be separated. This was known to the first Christians who had no difficulty in comparing Jesus to both goats; he was both the sacrifice and the scapegoat.
http//www.margaretbarker.com/Papers/Atonement.pdf page 8
What is being described in both these accounts of Moses' and Jesus' execution is the symbolism of the Day of Atonement. The likenesses being transferred is a symbolic way of saying that the two sacrificial goats of the Day of Atonement were identical. The original writers would not have taken their writings literally. For example, Moses' neck is described as being "as hard as ivory". Yet in the symbolic Song of Songs we read that "Your neck is like an ivory tower" (Bible, Song of Songs 74). The secrets and meanings of the rituals of the Day of Atonement are described in symbolic stories.
In this light, it can be seen that the ancient Gnostic writings were very mainstream Christian. They had been misunderstood (e.g. believing that this physical world is evil) by those who had not been taught the symbolic meanings.
Once this is grasped then the mainstream Islamic belief that someone really was changed into Jesus is seen to be a complete misunderstanding of the ancient symbolism used by the prophets.
Peace.
Richard
PS. I will write soon on the other idea which merely has Jesus not suffering. It is all based on Jesus having 'two natures', but described in a very vivid manner. -
http//www.salaatforum.com/index.php?id=325
I suppose that you are referencing this part on the page
355 O Jesus! I will cause you to die of natural causes and I will exalt you in honor and I will clear you of the slander of the disbelievers. .
THIS IS FANTASTIC!!!!
Let us compare this to Yusuf Ali's translation
355 "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee of those who blaspheme
"cause you to die of natural causes" vs " take thee"
mutawaffk on corpus.quran.com wfy this verb is translated as "to pay in full, to fulfil" or "to pass away, to die". Hence, to die as in "your time on earth is fulfilled" (am I right?), also in 5117 of Jesus, "when You took me up, You were the Observer over them, and You are, over all things, Witness".This means that Jesus was not merely 'taken up' as the traditional translations have it, but clearly 'taken in death' - and at that before any supposed Second Coming ("You were the Observer over them" is a past tense event).
However, to translate it as 'die of natural causes' does not seem to fit. For on the same page for this word 'wfy' it is referenced 4067 "It is He who created you from dust, then from a sperm-drop, then from a clinging clot; then He brings you out as a child; then that you reach your maturity, then that you become elders. And among you is he who is taken in death before , so that you reach a specified term; and perhaps you will use reason." (see also 225). Here 'taken in death' means in context 'dying before old age', i.e. of necessity including unnatural causes!
"exalt you in honor"
From your referenced web page on 355The word Rafa means honoring or exalting. Nowhere in the Quran is there any warrant for the popular belief that God has taken up Jesus bodily into heaven. (The Message of the Quran, Tafseer by Allama Muhammad Asad 355 and 415
This may well be true of the verb used here warfiuka corpus.quran.com rfE, as it is translated 'exalted' in 8014.
Nevertheless, when I look at 1933 "And peace is on me the day I was born and the day I will die and the day I am raised alive", not only do I find the usual word to die used of Jesus (amtu on corpus.quran.com mwt) but also the word for resurrect (( ub'athu on corpus.quran.com bEv).
Having pointed out on the web page referenced that there is a possible mistranslation ('take up' vs 'take in death' , why then is another mistranslation (unjustifiable 'natural causes' used as well?
I do not know Arabic, but know enough about Semitic languages to detect something is seriously wrong.
So, what's the next 'conjecture' going to be to avoid the obvious fact that Jesus is Isa who died on the Cross?
Richard
peace peace peace
