SURA FATIHA IS NOT IN THE "ORIGINAL QURAN"
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The Qur'aan is not only a book that one can read but the reading comes from a writing.
Peace farida -- there you wrote it again, Qur'an is the book!
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604789.270
Please pay attention it starts with our mind; the war to defeat ShayTan, & how terrified ShayTan and his allies are that we get the knowleget to crush them insha'allaahWhat?
There are no coherent thoughts in that thread; the guy promotes stoning, says it's in the book; into ancestor worship.
We get one of these delusional Mahdi numerologist characters pop out of the internet bushes every six months or so.Peace
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Peace farida -- there you wrote it again, Qur'an is the book!
Peace
Peace Nun
So are you saying that The People of the Book (?ahl_ul_kitaab) received and follow al-Qur'aan?What?
Yes if you pay attention you'll find that all war's start in the mind. Even this exchange of posts between me and you is a battle of minds, as one of us thinks too highly of his own intelligence and refuses to see the other's point, or simply discards it as nonsense. Time will tell who will stick to what s/he holds as god and who will submit insha'allaah.
There are no coherent thoughts in that thread; the guy promotes stoning, says it's in the book; into ancestor worship.
Maybe you are too busy to read those threads properly; as you can see from many others who have read his posts sincerely, they are finding truth there
We get one of these delusional Mahdi numerologist characters pop out of the internet bushes every six months or so.
You know he has not even started expounding on numerology, yet you have made up your mind already, so what can I say except giveup
salaam
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Salam,
Perhaps this scholarly quote is borrowed from alamyr.
Of course it is, I am al-amiyr's student and learned from what he explain's in plain English, if I find that my words do not work then I use his or other's quotes and I don't have to put al-amiyr's name all the time as I made sure I had his prior permission to borrow his quote .
BTW you still have not replied to; Quote from Mazhar on Yesterday at 010511 AM
l-amiyr's type people have all along been there perhaps since 6th BC. They were even there in the days Qur'aan was revealed. They also used to say things for which they had no evidence to support their contention.
I repeat, my request Please put forward your evidence in support of what you said above.
peace -
Of course it is, I am al-amiyr's student and learned from what he explain's in plain English, if I find that my words do not work then I use his or other's quotes and I don't have to put al-amiyr's name all the time as I made sure I had his prior permission to borrow his quote .
BTW you still have not replied to; Quote from Mazhar on Yesterday at 010511 AM I repeat Please put forward your evidence in support of what you said above.
peaceA serious look on this borrowed quote of alamiyr was the answer which you did not take as answer. Now please read again the quote but carefully to find its ridiculous style.
The Qur'aan is not only a book that one can read but the reading comes from a writing.
This sort of things they call hidden knowledge of Al-kitab.
Britannica says, "A book may be defined as a written (or printed) message of considerable length, meant for public circulation and recorded on materials that are light yet durable enough to afford comparatively easy portability. Its primary purpose is to announce, expound, preserve, and transmit knowledge and information between people, depending on the twin faculties of portability and permanence".
Arabic, as is well known, is the language based on Roots, three or four consonants placed in a peculiar sequence which signify a specific and exclusive perception and signification. Words, originating from these Roots on various well defined patterns-moulds-structuring frames, retain the original perception infolded in the Root with additional meanings and connotation, shades and colours added by the peculiar pattern-placing of vowels-syllabification, addition of consonants.
The Root of word is " ". The learned Lexicographers stated about the perception and signification infolded in the Root, as under
( ة. . .
.
( ب
.Lane's Lexicon transcribes the contents of Classical Arabic Lexicons in English in these words
b2- Hence, , aor. and , inf. n. , He conjoined the or? of the mule's vulva by means of a ring or a thong; (S as also . (A.) , aor. and , (K,) inf. n. ; and ; (TA He closed the camel's vulva, (K,) and put a ring upon it (TA) or he put a ring of iron or the like upon it, (K,) conjoining the or?, in order that she might not be covered. (TA.) -b3- , aor. , inf. n. ; (S and ; (K He sewed a , (S,) or a , (K,) or a , (TA,) with two thongs (K) or, accord. to some, he closed it at the mouth, by binding it round with a , so that nothing should drop from it; (TA or signifies he sewed a ; and , he bound it with a , i. e. bound it round the upper part.
.] A thing in which, or on which, one writes a written piece of paper or of skin (K) a writing, or writ, or thing written;It is thus evident that in whatever context, and whatever is the word that originates from this Root the basic meaning, signification shall be, that it leads to the perception of gathering, grouping, assembly, adjoining a thing with other thing. An act has a built in purpose/objective aimed at. It were/is employed to convey the perception and meanings of conjoining the os of she-camel?s vulva, by means of a ring or thong, in order to close the opening. The objective is that an unknown male, without the will of her owner, might not cover her. Its perception and meaning is to bring the mouth of some container together, conjoin it and sew it.
Thereby, it signifies the act of writing or inscribing, and denotes book. It may be seen that in the act of writing, particularly Arabic text, and making a book, the basic perception of the Root is conspicuously dominant. Writing is nothing except bringing closer the letters-consonants of alphabet of language and stitching-sewing them together. It yields syllables and words of meaningful import, and grouping or assembly of words produces sentences. The gathering of sentences yields number of papers-parchments-scroll depending on the quantum of written material.
As is the purpose of stitching the mouth of some receptacle-container, the purpose of writing is to keep the matter preserved, and avoid it gets scattered and diminished.
The basic purpose of conjoining the mouth of she-camel's vulva is to ensure protection from unwanted/undesirable entry into it, without the will of the owner when he is away from her. The same objective is there when a person authors-puts down his statement-thoughts in writing, whereby none can pollute-intermix any thing in that written matter/thought in time and space since it is physically available for reference and visual check.
The act of bringing together, or conjoining and stitching, or scrolling the papers/parchments/tablets containing written matter yields what is called a book. Book is a container to secure the matter contained therein from being scattered, disintegrated or polluted-intermixed.The difference, between with meanings of articulated verbal statement and , a book is that the former is the sound one- meaning, which he throws out of his mouth. It scatters in air and eventually diminishes, though it may not vanish in reality. On the contrary, if the same thing which one has , orally stated is put in writing it will become safe and lasting. The psyche of oral utterances is also that it quickly spreads and scatters in the society. This is diametrically opposite to the concept and perception of Arabic Root and word . Therefore, an oral utterance, i.e. a statement thrown out of the mouth as sound, articulated in a particular shape of the words of a language of the listener, is not of permanent value in time and space, since only those could hear it in whose ears it had created vibrations.
The basic objective of conjoining os of she-camel?s vulva is to avoid entrance of undesirable matter in the absence and without the will of the owner. People are bound to add matter of their own perceptions while transmitting oral utterances forward in time and place, the original words having lost in a short span of time. On the contrary, if that person had also put it in writing, his utterance would go into confinement in a conjoined and static state, and would reach people exactly in the words he had uttered from his mouth.
The writing of the spoken matter results in inscription fixedly attached or engraved on paper or tablet and covers a space. Anything, letter, treatise, book having been put into writing attains the attribute of existence and permanence retaining its virginity i.e. originality and purity, being the same for everyone in time and space for understanding, perceiving the words/statement/utterances/hadith of the author. Hence, it conveys the meanings "to prescribe, ordain, make mandatory/ obligatory".The basic perception of Root " " is to conjoin and sew together, and ultimate objective of is to conjoin and sew people together making them a unit, homogeneous fraternity.
A nation-fraternity comes into being only when there is a book, a social contract or a constitution. Let us admit affectionately that no language of the world can match the Arabic, the language of the Guide Lord of humanity, the Last Messenger Muhammad Sal'lallaa'hoalaih'wa'salam, the elevated and praised one. -
You know he has not even started expounding on numerology, yet you have made up your mind already, so what can I say except giveup
Peace farida -- look at his first post; numerology head case...
1234567891
Lo and behold!
+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+
-1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-1-
1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1
If you want to discuss people of the book/scripture open a different thread use context as to which book.
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Peace farida -- look at his first post; numerology head case...
Peace Nun
Are you denying; 7430 Over it are NINETEEN.???If you want to discuss people of the book/scripture open a different thread use context as to which book.
Unless you understand what is al-kitaab it's no use opening a new thread and discussing the people of al-kitaab.
salaam -
A serious look on this borrowed quote of alamiyr was the answer which you did not take as answer. Now please read again the quote but carefully to find its ridiculous style.
This sort of things they call hidden knowledge of Al-kitab.........
Britannica says, "...The basic perception of Root " " is to conjoin and sew together, and ultimate objective of is to conjoin and sew people together making them a unit, homogeneous fraternity.
A nation-fraternity comes into being only when there is a book, a social contract or a constitution.salaam Mazhar
To be quite honest I did not even bother to read your ridiculous style and over long copy-and-paste post, as I rely on a better teacher than the one you rely upon, al-hamdullilaah! Btw. You've still not replied to(Quote from Mazhar on Yesterday at 010511 AM) and my repeated requests to provide evidence of your claims against al-amiyr.
Let us admit affectionately that no language of the world can match the Arabic, the language of the Guide Lord of humanity, the Last Messenger Muhammad Sal'lallaa'hoalaih'wa'salam, the elevated and praised one.
Let us admit that, first we have to learn the Arabic exactly, as it was taught by the Last Messenger Muhammad Sal'lallaa'hu alaihi'wa'sallam.
For a start learn the difference between;
a book = kitaabun
the book = al-kitaabu/ the book=Al Kitaab-
peace -
Are you denying; 7430 Over it are NINETEEN.???
Peace farida -- read in context, "it" refers to hell-fire and about those who deny Qur'an ...
7422 furthermore he frowned and scowled
7423 furthermore departs and was arrogant
7424 so he said indeed this one only enchantment imitated
7425 indeed this one only speech (refers to Qur'an) the human
7426 soon I will drive him saqara/hell
7427 and what will make you know what saqaru/hell
7428 not it lets remain and not leaves
7429 scorching to the human
7430 over her/it (hell-fire; not Qur'an which is masculine) nine ten (i.e. nineteen)
7431 and not We made companions the fire except angels and not We made their count only temptation for those who disbelieve/deny to ascertain the those who were given the book and increase the those who believe faith and not suspicious/doubting the those who were given the book and the believers and that may say the those who in hearts theirs disease and the disbelievers/deniers what had intended The God in this example like that He lets stray The God from wills and guides from wills and not he knows soldiers your Lord except He and not it is except a reminder to the human -
Peace farida -- read in context, "it" refers to hell-fire and about those who deny Qur'an ...
Peace Nun
No!!! it does not and I never believed your and Ayman's interpretation of 7430 Over it are NINETEEN.
I always believed that 'nineteen' had some relevance of its own. I only needed to find out, from a person of profound knowledge, exactly what that was. I've waited patiently to meet such a person and al-hamdillilaah here he is to explain it, so just have patience.
Btw do read again 7422-31 with free mind and hope and fear in your heart.
salaam -
For a start learn the difference between;
a book = kitaabun
the book = al-kitaabu/ the book=Al Kitaab-Peace,
It seems you have become a good student who exactly copies the master.
On another thread I told you that outside the text the word is Kitaabun. In Arabic the common nouns in default state are always indefinite. When a book is specified then it is referred in subsequent text as Al Kitaab.
You needed to read about Kitab and what its Root denotes. Therefore, pl go back and read about its Root so that you first learn what a book is.
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Let us admit that, first we have to learn the Arabic exactly, as it was taught by the Last Messenger Muhammad Sal'lallaa'hu alaihi'wa'sallam.
This is another tricky style of putting things. He did not teach the Arabic language. Language existed before him and the Qur'aan and is still a living language. He taught the Qur'aan-the Book. We the non natives have to learn reading Qur'aan by knowing its grammar and meanings through lexicons.
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Peace,
It seems you have become a good student who exactly copies the master.
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Peace
What if I copied from my home workOn another thread I told you that outside the text the word is Kitaabun. In Arabic the common nouns in default state are always indefinite. When a book is specified then it is referred in subsequent text as Al Kitaab.
You needed to read about Kitab and what its Root denotes. Therefore, pl go back and read about its Root so that you first learn what a book is
For now please just reply to my request and then we can discuss anything else.
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This is another tricky style of putting things. He did not teach the Arabic language. Language existed before him and the Qur'aan and is still a living language. He taught the Qur'aan-the Book. We the non natives have to learn reading Qur'aan by knowing its grammar and meanings through lexicons.
Now if you really want to learn the difference, between true Qur'aanic Arabic, and the Arabic you know please do follow al-amiyr's posts on this subject and you may learn something valid to argue your points insah'allaah.
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Now if you really want to learn the difference, between true Qur'aanic Arabic, and the Arabic you know please do follow al-amiyr's posts on this subject and you may learn something valid to argue your points insah'allaah.
It is not al-amiyr but many in timeline were deluded by such things like Qur'aanic Arabic and the other Arabic.
They naively forget that Qur'aan nowhere suggests that its Arabic is a language different from the Arabic spoken and understood by Mohammad Sal'lallaa'hu alaihi'wa'sallam and others of those days or afterwards. On the contrary it says
Thereby, for reason of its universality and permanence We have certainly made it-Grand Qur'aan easy to comprehend by transcribing it in the mother tongue-Arabic of you Muhammad .
The purpose of its easy rendition is that you the Messenger might give glad tidings-guarantee on strength of this Grand Qur'aan to those who mindfully endeavor avoiding unrestrained conduct in reverence and fear;and so that you the Messenger may admonish with this Qur'aan the excessively argumentative people.
Proclamation of Allah the Exalted Qur'aan is made easy to learn and comprehend by its transcription in Arabic-the language of our Guide Lord Muhammad Sal'lallaa'hoalaih'wa'salam and related to Arabian Peninsula
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No!!! it does not and I never believed your and Ayman's interpretation of 7430 Over it are NINETEEN.
I always believed that 'nineteen' had some relevance of its own. I only needed to find out, from a person of profound knowledge, exactly what that was. I've waited patiently to meet such a person and al-hamdillilaah here he is to explain it, so just have patience.
Btw do read again 7422-31 with free mind and hope and fear in your heart.Peace farida, then you should be able to articulate and explain what it is you found so profound?
Now back to discussion of this thread which the poster did not thoroughly study or post evidence.
The Oldest Qur'an Examined -- scroll to 50 which clearly 1st and last chapters are present.
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUmkloE78Kw
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Peace to you Noon. My question is, after watching the video on The Oldest Qur'aan in your studies, was that Kufic script they were showing? and does that script precede the scripts that contain the "dots" above and below the Arabic letters? Or is it just a short-hand of sorts, like the video suggested? (You display a patient nature. To be commended.) and peace
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Dear All,Salam
If you go to Islamic awareness and then to "Sana Quran",you can see that qurans written during 1st century Hijrah do not have sura fatiha.Also go to "quran Complex"in Saudi Arabia,I mean their SITE on internet,you can see pictures of many qurans,of course older qurans,pictures show only the first page,and you will see that many qurans start with sura baqar the 2nd sura now known ti us starting with "alif lam meem".
Also present quran says,"quran and seven oft repeated ayats"this also tells us that quran and seven ayats are two different writtings.But after the firsst century people added this sura as a part of quran perhaps because of its repeating in prayers.Thanks.Peace be upon you.
Brother, are you trying to say that surah Fatiha didn't exist at that time, and later people wrote it themselves and added inside the Qur'an? Or are you trying to say that surah Fatiha did exist, but it just wasn't the first surah?
Now if you look at 1587, the word 'ayah' doesn't exist in that verse, but most translators have still inserted the word 'verses' in their English translations.
The word 'mathani' means a repetition, or something which is oft-repeated, such as parts or narratives of the Qur'an. It is not to be confused with the word 'mathna' of the same root, which means by two's or pairs.
And the word 'saba' means 'seven', and it can also mean 'a vague number, seven or more, or a multiplicity'.
3127 If all the trees on earth were pens, and the sea ink, with seven/several seas added to it, the words of God would not be exhausted for, truly, God is Almighty and Wise.
If we note the theme of the above verse, specifically with regards the 'sea', it becomes clear that the 'seven' denotes a multiplicity if compared with a similar verse below (18109) which carries the same theme.
18109 Say "If the sea were an inkwell for the words of my Lord, then the sea would run out before the words of my Lord run out;" even if We were to bring another like it for its aid.
So from my understanding, the word 'saba' can also mean 'several'.
Also present quran says,"quran and seven oft repeated ayats"this also tells us that quran and seven ayats are two different writtings.But after the firsst century people added this sura as a part of quran perhaps because of its repeating in prayers.Thanks.
Brother, the present Qur'an does NOT say that the Qur'an and the seven ayats are two different writings. It is your own misunderstanding.
1587 We have given you the seven oft-recited verses AND (Arabic wa) the great Quran.
The conjunction 'and/wa' does not indicate that the Qur'an and the seven oft-repeated verses are two different pieces of writing. This is a Quranic style of writing which clearly uses the conjunction 'wa' in different ways.
The 'wa' can be used to denote something separate, and it can also be used to add words to clarify something of the previous word.
For example In them will be Fruits (Arabic fakihatun), and (wa) dates and (wa) pomegranates. (556
Therefore, you can see that despite the usage of the conjunction 'wa', the dates and pomegranates don't get separated from the word 'Fruits', but the dates and pomegranates are and still remains a PART of the fruits.
So the correct translation of 1587 should be "And certainly, We have given you seven/several of the oft-repeated and the great Quran."
My conclusion The expression 'mathaniya' used here doesn't mean 'verses', but it is used to denote the Qur'an's capacity to advance and repeat it's teaching in a multifaceted manner, remaining fully consistent with itself at all times.
Peace.