Determinism and Existence of God
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Peace Friends,
I was going through Edip's Translation of the Quran and there he says,
Determinism and Free Will BOTH of them CAN'T exist at the same time. (or they are mutually exclusive).....If they are to, as they do in real lives, it implies the existence of a supreme creator.
I have difficulty in understanding the second part. They do coexist, but how is that related to EXISTENCE of GOD...
If I have misquoted, please correct me.
If I have not please explain me whats going on... confused
Peace
Harun -
Salaam
Determinism and Free Will BOTH of them CAN'T exist at the same time.
That affirmation is false.
Think about duality of matter in quantum mechanics.
Even Einstein had difficulties to accept it.Determinism and Free Will/undeterminism/probabilistic determination can coexist.
Read about decoherence http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_decoherence
it seems like that particles have multiple states before chosing one of them by interaction with other particles. Funny no ?Peace
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Peace
Hey noshirk...thanks for your intellectual response. But I have problems with that.
Being a physics student, I know about Quantum Decoherence and the Copehagen Interpretation. But the question asked talks about determinism as a whole. Quantum Decoherence doesnot affect on a non quantum realm, which is the macroscopic world we experience.
Determinism in macroscopic world and Free will both Do Exist.
Peace
Harun. -
Determinism and freedom are not contradictory nor are they the same. They simply aren't. They are a way in which human try to know, something which they cannot experience. They ask themselves, but the very question is wrong. God is always present. God is not in the pst or the future. He hs not a beginning or an end and therefore He creates, as it is said in the Qur'an everything all the time. Time is a dimension for humans not for Him. If we think that He predetermines it is wrong. He determins, not pre-. We are within time and we try to snatch into time something which pertains to timelessness.
Salaam
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Salam,
Here is a good account on 'determinism' http//www.informationphilosopher.com/freedom/determinism.html
And also this page http//www.informationphilosopher.com/freedom/requirements.html
In fact the website offers quite a good list of reading materials on philosophy.
Happy reading.
Mohammed Noh
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In nature determinism and free-will do exit at the same time. We all know that.
The universe is not chaotic but orderly and follows by the rule of mathematics. That's why we are able to compute calenders for seasons, cultivation or navigation with respect to sun, moon distance stars or constellations since the ancient time.
However we know that by mathematics that determinism is only possible within the limits of uncertainty principle. Heisenberg?s uncertainty principle is a fundamental, inescapable property of the world. We cannot determine everything including human behavior (including free-will) no matter how advance we get. 1 + 1 = 2 always
Now how this is related to the existence of the god? Difficult to describe but since there is a limit for determinism alone is enough for me to think logical of existence of god.
This is just what I think about Determinism and Existence of God.
Peace
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In the quantised universe this is an obsolete question. There is a simple proof for coexistence and it is presented thus.
Free will is a number, not a 0/1. In one room you have 1000 units of free will/possible choices. In another room with no doors or windows, you have 0 units of free will/possible choices.
The unjust always seek to divert into fallacious queries and to confuse and turn minds away from the true object of attention, which is their misdeeds, their greed and lust for the worldly. Instead they will seek to create philosophical questions which are existentially troubling and indeed can cause a questioning mind to lose hope.
However if you look at the present study of the universe it points to total determinism. There IS free will even then.
Determinism => Once the past is written, it shall not be changed
Free will => The past only affects the present to the degree that we choose toTake the spherical surface area of the observable universe, a 96 billion light year diameter sphere. Tesselate the surface (create a grid). The lowest n-sided tesselation is a triangular grid.
Each triangle is a single Planck Area, a single pixel of spacetime. Three triangles compose a single binary digit, a single bit of spacetime.
This is the holographic information bound on spacetime, which has been arrived at by observation/study of black hole mass limits.If you wish to explore this further, you may search holographic information bound / holographic universe hypothesis
Now consider the Book of Life also known as the 4D universe manifold. It is expanding. Every single day, the story goes on. And not only does the story go on, but the universe the story goes on in, gets bigger and expands to infinity. This is CREATION. It does not have an end. More characters, more Earths, more stars.
What does this mean? The observable universe, which you can now consider as a spherical mesh of triangles is always gaining new triangles. Each new triangle must fit perfectly into the mesh (determinism) but simultaneously there is infinite possible variation (free will). This is described and explained by the movement of the 4D universe in a higher dimensional space. So now you have a space of possible choices in 4D. Then one layer of reality above that, you have a space of possible universes in 5+D.
In each situation you have a set of choices.
In each universe you have a set of situations.
In each God you have a set of universes.While all of these things are difficult to comprehend if you do not possess the visualising ability that a string theorist employs, you may learn the moral of the story and cut to the chase, skip the many years of physics education and understand the lesson which they are seeking to begin with!
You can also look at the concept of the Light Cone to further understand free will/determinism.
But suffice to say, for all the sincere seekers... this question is ANSWERED. It is closed, case closed, no further questions, 2+2=4. But you must look and see to find the answer. This is a question of philosophy which is answered by pure mathematical geometry. Indisputably, 2+2=4.
A very good read that will explain the entire thing from beginning to end in relation to the mind and the question in the OP http//goertzel.org/dynapsyc/2007/holomind.htm
peace
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The time part is the key. God sees all one does, but one has the free will to act as they please yet God knows in advance how things will play out (as in, they are pre-determined). For us, our choices make consequences for us and everything around us but God is outside of the picture and doesn't follow time in our world. It's a strange thing to think about... I hope I have the right idea but it sure can be complicated.