David Attenborough and God.

farida

Has anybody paid any attention that 'this kind of discussion' mostly appears in the western part of the world (middle east included)?
And rarely appears in the eastern part of the world?

-- Isaiah 55

Sahih International
Say, "O disbelievers,
I do not worship what you worship.
Nor are you worshippers of what I worship.
Nor will I be a worshipper of what you worship.
Nor will you be worshippers of what I worship.
For you is your religion, and for me is my religion."
Provided in the western part of the world (middle east included) they understand the difference between worship and affluence hmm

?For My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are Your ways are my ways,?
They believe in the survival of the fittest I/we believe in the responsibility of the fittest.

?As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways
And remember when He made you successors ..you take for yourselves palaces from its plains and carve from the mountains, homes. Then remember the favors of Allah and do not commit abuse on the earth, spreading corruption
'Sir' David Attenborough/ you made a lot of money exploring the Africa your people once colonised and still exploit, leaving the Africans that you pretend to care about dry and empty. You the Big Boy, knowing well the root cause of their suffering, dare to shift the blame to God, for the misery of the Little African Boy hypno

and My thoughts higher than your thoughts"
You are finished once you are gone, but I/we beleive in the final return to the Higher Authority and accountability for the privilege of having stayed upon this earth.

Hint This is what they get when they view God (too much) as a human personality. They start to judge God like other human being.

Hint Should one view actions of humans as reflecting God's, OR judge humans, according to their rank as God's successor authority here on earth?

Peace

Jafar

Life has one goal in that we need to stand by justness and ever appreciative obedience for which exchange of thoughts without pride is essential. This is because none knows whose thought is superior and valuable in a given moment. Isaiah55 is a bit unpleasant in this sense.

Peace

I think you missed the point,

Life events is like a chain reaction no matter how small they are.. Moses story in the Quran teach that..
And from Zillion of possibilities, the one which is actually happening (a.k.a the Will of God) is the 'best' possibility.

The similitude will be for example in a game of chess..
Sometime a player might sacrifice a pawn (seem to be a bad move) in order to do a check mate in 3 steps.
And in aftermath the analyst shall say "It's one heck of a move! Great Move!"

Take another example Hitler and the Nazis..
Despite all the wicked stuff that they've done.. there ARE good result coming out of WWII as aftermath.
From the end of colonization era up to great invention of automobile, rockets, electronics and computers (the first computer was made during WWII to decipher Nazi's cryptography) etc..

The same case with The Mongols invasion which killed and raped millions...

Most of the time we don't understand on why so and so events took place.. but the best attitude is just to accept it.
That's what Jesus did, Moses did (after the lesson apparently) and so does millions of other muslims.. the true muslims that is.. and not the member of a religion named Islam.

"Life is a series of natural and spontaneous changes.
Don't resist them - that only creates sorrow.
Let reality be reality."
-- Lao Tse

Salam / Peace

noshirk

salaam

I've had such conversations with many people, here in the west, where the popular attitute is to deny God because of the suffering in the world. My Question for them was 'why do you think you were created? Just to sit on your backside and plunder the blessing around you ???

On the other hand, when I read the autobiography of Abdul Sattar Edhi, who has seen real misery, inflicted upon people by others/fellow human beings mainly, I was expecting him to ask such a question. But not once did he say anything like this; he just get's on with his work bravo

If Muslims ask this question, I wonder have they understood what is clearly stated in the Quran for them
For now just three verses

Sahih International

And , when your Lord said to the angels, "Indeed, I will make upon the earth a successive authority." They said, "Will You place upon it one who causes corruption therein and sheds blood, while we declare Your praise and sanctify You?" Allah said, "Indeed, I know that which you do not know."

6165] Sahih International

And it is He who has made you successors upon the earth and has raised some of you above others in degrees that He may try you through what He has given you. Indeed, your Lord is swift in penalty; but indeed, He is Forgiving and Merciful

Sahih International

And remember when He made you successors after the 'Aad and settled you in the land, you take for yourselves palaces from its plains and carve from the mountains, homes. Then remember the favors of Allah and do not commit abuse on the earth, spreading corruption."

If only they understood what is the meaning of the successors upon the earth this world would be a very different place hmm

salaam

Salaam sister
i am agree with you. I think you pointed to the right verses to respond to the problematic of this thread.

Earth was delivred to humans. That's a quranic fact. Human Kind is the first responsible of what happen to humans.

However, it seems that God made some interventions. At least, he sent messengers with words through rouh/dream canal of communication.
Is miracles direct actions of God or are they coincidences fitted by God between human history and earth geological History ?
I cannot respond to this question because it implies to know what means time (the physical dimension) for God.

Assuming that God is making, sometimes, direct interventions to change the course of history bring somes problems

At wich level of injustice God decide to make intervention ? Please note that this question is a relative question since injustice is applied to a very lagre panel of situations.
What means "God knows future" if he acts on it and change it permanently ? What does mean then "Khalifa on earth" if God change continuously earth destiny ?

On the other hand, "Khalifa on earth" raise the problem of human kind responsability as a whole. Adam was expulsed from a kind of Heaven. He made an error and we, bani Adam, have to assume the consequences of that error. We inherits many things from our parents and from our olds compatriots. Community destiny is many times mentionned in Quran.

Last and not least, we "imagine" that God has to make some interventions relative to injustice criteria. From childhood, we learned to see life from the prism of the bad and the good. Is that the good prism ? Is God going to decide on heaven/hell destiny according to the good/bad criteria ? if Good/bad or justice/injustice are wrong criterias then why should we expect God to make interventions according to these criteria ?
If we think about Noah and Lot history. The criteria of salvation seems clear. It is possible that what we consider "good people" were not saved during Noah and Lot history. All people of Lot (at least women) were certainly not making homosexuality with men.

Peace

drfazl

I think you missed the point,

Life events is like a chain reaction no matter how small they are..

"Life is a series of natural and spontaneous changes.
Don't resist them - that only creates sorrow.
Let reality be reality."
-- Lao Tse

Salam / Peace

If life is a chain reaction, given the disobedient nature of man the world would have ended billions of years ago caught in the vicious cycle. Yet this cycle is broken and in its place the glad tidings of God is replaced because He is Most Forgiving, Most Merciful. And prayer is the surest way of absolute resistance when something evil befalls us lest we would perish.

Peace

Hoppean

So people here think that a merciful and loving god is loving and merciful by creating a human and then torturing that human here on Earth and then maybe torturing him again in hell?

And that the expectation of a merciful and loving god to be merciful and loving is expecting too much? How exactly has that little boy chosen to be blind by being infected with this worm? I must have missed that.

In another thread Ahmad Bilal raises the same issues. I answered him with this

You have failed to provide a definition of "omnibenevolence" or "mercy" etc, which would result in any "problem of evil".
The attribute of mercy has relevance only to an object; it presupposes creation and has no relevance to God ad intra. Thus, whatever your definition of "mercy etc" may be, it cannot result in God contradicting himself ontologically.
Categories such as mercy or justice have no relevance to God, qua creator. Therefore your objection falls away, as God, qua creator, "...does whatever he wills with the armies of heaven and earth, and none can stay his hand and all the inhabitants of the earth are esteemed as nothing." It would be like going up to an artist and saying your work is "unmerciful" or "unjust", such categories are irrelevant

farida

Salaam sister
i am agree with you. I think you pointed to the right verses to respond to the problematic of this thread.

Earth was delivred to humans. That's a quranic fact. Human Kind is the first responsible of what happen to humans.

However, it seems that God made some interventions. At least, he sent messengers with words through rouh/dream canal of communication.
Is miracles direct actions of God or are they coincidences fitted by God between human history and earth geological History ?
I cannot respond to this question because it implies to know what means time (the physical dimension) for God.

Assuming that God is making, sometimes, direct interventions to change the course of history bring somes problems

At wich level of injustice God decide to make intervention ? Please note that this question is a relative question since injustice is applied to a very lagre panel of situations

salaam noshirk
Al-hamdullilaah, despite giving us free will, ALLAAH does give us a reminder from time to time, and intervention too when the bearer of burdens can take it no more. These are the favours of al-rahman; al-rahim hail

.

What means "God knows future" if he acts on it and change it permanently ? What does mean then "Khalifa on earth" if God change continuously earth destiny ?

On the other hand, "Khalifa on earth" raise the problem of human kind responsability as a whole. Adam was expulsed from a kind of Heaven. He made an error and we, bani Adam, have to assume the consequences of that error. We inherits many things from our parents and from our olds compatriots. Community destiny is many times mentionned in Quran.

Last and not least, we "imagine" that God has to make some interventions relative to injustice criteria. From childhood, we learned to see life from the prism of the bad and the good. Is that the good prism ? Is God going to decide on heaven/hell destiny according to the good/bad criteria ? if Good/bad or justice/injustice are wrong criterias then why should we expect God to make interventions according to these criteria ?

Peace

Let's look at ourselves as parents; we send our children to learn (the name of the words), in the best schools we can afford, and we teach them whatever we can, to make them independent and prosprous. In the process we scold them, punish and reward them, according to our judgement. When they are qualified we expect them to go out into the big world to stand up for themselves, and live a fullfilling life.
Good parents would not interfere too much in their kids affairs; maybe leave them to fend for themselves, as Ibrahim(as) did, and expect them to learn from their mistakes. Only when one see's them in need of guidance, advice is given in light of past experiences. At times one may even hand out a bit of one's savings to help them over in hard times, but no one can live their life for them, no matter how much you try. Everyone has to go through life's ups and downs individually, so what else can a parent do to make life worthwhile for the children?
Do I make sense here? Please comment?

If we think about Noah and Lot history. The criteria of salvation seems clear. It is possible that what we consider "good people" were not saved during Noah and Lot history. All people of Lot (at least women) were certainly not making homosexuality with men.

I hope to get answers to above for myself only, when I am well versed in al-kitaab insha'allaah, in the meantime think about Kane and Able; We are the children of Kane & Or does that mean we learn from his mistake and regret? hmm

salaam

StopS

In another thread Ahmad Bilal raises the same issues. I answered him with this

You have failed to provide a definition of "omnibenevolence" or "mercy" etc, which would result in any "problem of evil".

mer?cy (m?rs)

Compassionate treatment, especially of those under one's power; clemency.
A disposition to be kind and forgiving a heart full of mercy.
Something for which to be thankful; a blessing It was a mercy that no one was hurt.
Alleviation of distress; relief Taking in the refugees was an act of mercy.

Definition of MERCY
1a compassion or forbearance shown especially to an offender or to one subject to one's power; also lenient or compassionate treatment <begged for mercy>
b imprisonment rather than death imposed as penalty for first-degree murder
2a a blessing that is an act of divine favor or compassion
b a fortunate circumstance <it was a mercy they found her before she froze>
3 compassionate treatment of those in distress

In short the opposite of just and cold

The attribute of mercy has relevance only to an object; it presupposes creation and has no relevance to God ad intra. Thus, whatever your definition of "mercy etc" may be, it cannot result in God contradicting himself ontologically.

I completely disagree. Can you show where this is defined? I think it is the opposite.
You or a being can only show mercy towards a living being. It has no bearing on anything super-natural. No mercy has ever been observed or demonstrated on anything super-natural.
Unfortunately, the human-made attributes are a logical contradiction, as I have shown in my comment.
If a human judge is just, that judge will pass the maximum punishment, the death sentence, for a heinous crime. If this judge adds a bit of mercy, the punishment will not be the death sentence.
If a god is just, the punishment for sin is hell. If this god is merciful as defined above the punishment should not be hell. But hell exists. And the god is called merciful. A logical contradiction.
I am talking about humans assigning human attributes to a super-natural being, called anthropomorphising.

Categories such as mercy or justice have no relevance to God, qua creator. Therefore your objection falls away, as God, qua creator, "...does whatever he wills with the armies of heaven and earth, and none can stay his hand and all the inhabitants of the earth are esteemed as nothing." It would be like going up to an artist and saying your work is "unmerciful" or "unjust", such categories are irrelevant

I agree with you. Which is why I criticise human attributes being assigned to non-humans. This also entails the attribute of merciful to a creator/god.
Can you provide a justification for heaven and hell when people on Earth experience ups and downs?

hawk99

?Well, what about that little African boy, five years old, sitting on the banks of a river, and he?s got a worm in his eye that?s going to turn him blind in three years? Did this God that you talk about actually design this worm and say ?I?ll put it in this boy?s eye?? To suggest that God specifically created a worm to torture small African children is blasphemy as far as I can see. The Archbishop of Canterbury doesn?t believe that.
InterviewerHe?s supposed to believe it, though, isn?t he?
What is the answer to the emboldened part?

Peace es,

What we have is a lack of understanding! What must be acknowledged is that our
knowledge of the machinations God is extremely limited. What so many humans try
to do is understand God outside of what he has revealed to us as if if we knew the
answers that would somehow lead us to a place of acceptance of what God has created.
To seek to understand some questions like why does God do this or that which he has not
given us the answers to is folly and nonsense and reeks of kufr like a person falling from the sky
into a open volcano, his opinions and questions are meaningless God does as he pleases.

It may be that the believers forgot this verse while the kuffar will not acknowledge this verse!

He is never to be asked about anything He does, while all others are questioned.

Peace

Hoppean

mer?cy (m?rs).......

In short the opposite of just and cold

This is exactly why I asked for your definition.

Mercy, as a category, is separate but not in itself inconsistent with justice.
Mercy is most definitely NOT the opposite of justice. The opposite of justice would be...well, injustice. So your "case against God" would be that he is unjust, not that he has contradicted his mercy.
You were asked for a definition that would result in a "problem of evil", no such definition was provided.

I completely disagree. Can you show where this is defined? I think it is the opposite.

The attribute of mercy/compassion requires an object, even if reflexive. God does not need/have mercy on himself therefore it does not apply to God ad intra, but only to creatures.

You or a being can only show mercy towards a living being. It has no bearing on anything super-natural.

Re-read my definition. You're basically saying the same thing.

No mercy has ever been observed or demonstrated on anything super-natural.

Define super-natural? Mercy can be shown only to a living object. Yet the subject must be rational in order for the act to be interpreted as "merciful/compassionate".

Unfortunately, the human-made attributes are a logical contradiction, as I have shown in my comment.

No such thing was shown, as I will demonstrate below.

If a human judge is just, that judge will pass the maximum punishment, the death sentence, for a heinous crime. If this judge adds a bit of mercy, the punishment will not be the death sentence.

The term "maximum" is ambiguous. The just Judge will punish to the extant that it is required by the law.
If the law demands death and the judge does not provide it, then he is no longer just. He may be compassionate and merciful, but just he is not. For justice requires that the criminal be punished to the extant that the law demands, in principle. If not, then it would be equally "just" to fine a murderer a 100$, when the law requires his life. I think so far we agree.

If a god is just, the punishment for sin is hell. If this god is merciful as defined above the punishment should not be hell. But hell exists. And the god is called merciful. A logical contradiction.

This presumes mercy (i.e. spared hell) must be provided to all. Whereas, if God spares only one, then he is merciful.

I am talking about humans assigning human attributes to a super-natural being, called anthropomorphising.

Notice the definitions you provided did not necessitate that one act as such with all persons, in all situations, and in all times. Therefore, you have gone beyond your own definition.
Your idea of "mercy" is not even human, since no one would qualify as "merciful" if he ever acted with justice. It would be the equivalent of saying If a man only loves his wife, and does not "love" every other woman in this way, then he is unloving. An obvious non sequitur.

Can you provide a justification for heaven and hell when people on Earth experience ups and downs?

Explain why it is relevant what people on earth are experiencing.
Hell is the punishment for being guilty before God. In this, God is glorified for his justice.
Heaven is the unmerited favour that God bestows on unworthy sinners, for whom he, out of pure grace and mercy, has provided a legal satisfaction for their sins, thus removing their guilt. In this, God is glorified for his mercy.
Unless you accept that all men born of Adam, by natural generation, are completely spiritually dead and inclined only to evil, then you will not accept my justification.
If you think men are born "tabla raza" as for instance Roman Catholicism and Islam teach, then you will not accept God's judgement as being just.
These latter issues relate to scripture, and whether you accept what it teaches.

Remember your initial claim was this

"So people here think that a merciful and loving god is loving and merciful by creating a human and then torturing that human here on Earth and then maybe torturing him again in hell? And that the expectation of a merciful and loving god to be merciful and loving is expecting too much? How exactly has that little boy chosen to be blind by being infected with this worm? I must have missed that.

You contrasted mercy with "torturing" people on earth and then in hell. Strictly speaking this is irrelevant to God, qua creator. It is not the office of a creator to be merciful, as you agreed. It is the office of a creator, to do whatever he pleases with his creation.

Nevertheless the God of scripture, is not God because he created. He would be God without any creation. Therefore, your complaint is without merit; however if you wish to discuss whether God is just, qua judge, that would be another issue.

Thus, as we have seen, you have defined mercy to be "the opposite of just". This is false, mercy is categorically not the opposite of justice. Rather, mercy can be considered generally inconsistent with justice; yet not absolutely and in principle. However, even then your contention is misplaced, for you ought to say that God cannot be merciful, as a just judge, not as creator. For, as I stated in point 4 above, God does indeed show that he is merciful and loving; though these attributes do not correspond to God, qua creator or even judge. Rather these attributes correspond to God qua God; that is, in his person.

aabdul

David Attenborough Not in this country. You get letters but it?s a very easy thing to answer. Someone says ?I believe a God of infinite mercy created every single species and the Lord looks after us and all the animals.?Well, what about that little African boy, five years old, sitting on the banks of a river, and he?s got a worm in his eye that?s going to turn him blind in three years? Did this God that you talk about actually design this worm and say ?I?ll put it in this boy?s eye?? To suggest that God specifically created a worm to torture small African children is blasphemy as far as I can see. The Archbishop of Canterbury doesn?t believe that.

What is the answer to the emboldened part?

About physical events, termed . natural evil?, the Quran says ?We have not created the skies and the earth and what is between them (the Universe), but rightfully (<Haq)? 15/75). The many-faceted word "Haq" here means something constructive. Contrarily, ?? <bathil (wrong) means destructive. Therefore, the Quran pronounces the universe constructive (good) as a whole. there are countless FORCES OF NATURE at play according to Allah?s law. Man has the potential of discovering and harnessing those forces ? ?Whatever is between the skies and the earth is rendered harnessable for you (all)? (4513). Until the discovery of physical laws governing a force (SCIENCE), it remains uncontrolled and destructive. It becomes constructive when harnessed. Many forces of Nature were awesomely destructive during Man?s infancy. They become constructively useful as they were gradually harnessed through scientific work. The Quran felicitates men who approach the Universe with a scientific mind and make discoveries and thus help probe the rightfulness of the Universe and its forces. Quran states;

?In the creation of the earth and the heavens and the alternation of night and day, there are signs for those gifted with understanding. These people keep Allah?s Laws in mind whilst standing, sitting or reclining. After reflecting upon the creation of the heavens and the earth, they cry out, ?O our Sustainer! You have not created this Universe in vain or for destructive purposes?* Your Schemes of things are much above flaw. Grant us the insight to understand the functioning of these things, so that we benefit from them and remain safe from suffering.?(3190-191) (Exposition of the Quran By Parwez)

The word ?? <bathil as opposed to "Haq" (1575) is used here

Man has harnessed hitherto awesomely destructive forces of Nature --- and considered ?evil? --- and have rendered them useful, constructive and ?good?. Rain water is flood if not controlled, uncontrolled fire is another such force. Yet another example is a wide variety of poisonous creatures (snakes, scorpions, etc.) which are now a valuable source of antidotes! Pain in considered by some as the ultimate example of evil. But it is actually the warning signals sent out by a body when it malfunctions. In the absence of pain, one would not be aware of a physical or physiological problem until it is too late. Pain is a blessing in disguise!

The verse 326 states the principal that "Allah?s hand has ?good? alone and He has measures / standards for all things" Verse 2216 states ?It may be that you ignore what is actually good for you and want what is actually evil. Allah knows and you know not? - (it means don?t depend upon your own knowledge of good and evil. Go by Allah?s knowledge). Quran further states all good is from Allah whereas evil is brought upon Man by himself. ?What is (wrong) with them? They don?t try to understand. Remember, the pleasantness you get is from Allah and your troubles are from you yourselves? (479) ?There is no calamity but brought upon you by your own hands? (4230) Sura Beni Israel says ?When We bless Man with Our bounties, he acts indifferent; when he is in problems, he is frustrated? (1783; 4151). Elsewhere, the Quran says ?When We give Man a taste of bounty, he gets carried away. When he begets problems from his own doing, he gets depressed (and disappointed)? (3036; 424. Sura Aaraaf says ?Fertile land yields well (by Allah?s law) whereas bad land not so well? (75. However all events happen according to Allah? laws; Quran says ?when they are in a pleasant situation, they attribute it to Allah, but blame the Prophet for their troubles. Tell them ?everything is from Allah? (?s law) 478- (All events (actions) bear results pre-determined by Allah?s law). And finally, ?If you are hurt by Allah (?s law), the only respite is from Allah (?s laws), as He has established measures for everything? (617, 10107), also 393.

Karimah

Recently I have been reading a lot of the work of Jeffrey Lang and he addresses these issues, such as why bad things happen and why did Allah bother create us humans if we are so 'terrible'. I HIGHLY recommend his work. Even Angels Ask, Struggling to Surrender, Losing My Religion (MUST READ IMO).

noshirk

Good parents would not interfere too much in their kids affairs; maybe leave them to fend for themselves, as Ibrahim(as) did, and expect them to learn from their mistakes. Only when one see's them in need of guidance, advice is given in light of past experiences. At times one may even hand out a bit of one's savings to help them over in hard times, but no one can live their life for them, no matter how much you try. Everyone has to go through life's ups and downs individually, so what else can a parent do to make life worthwhile for the children?
Do I make sense here? Please comment?

Salaam sister.

3113 And Luqmaan said to his son, while he was advising him ?O my son, do not set up any partners with God; for setting up partners is an immense wrongdoing.?

i don't know what else to respond.
like you, i wish to put my childs in a straith path for all their life.

Peace

farida

Salaam sister.

3113 And Luqmaan said to his son, while he was advising him ?O my son, do not set up any partners with God; for setting up partners is an immense wrongdoing.?

i don't know what else to respond.
like you, i wish to put my childs in a straith path for all their life.

Peace

salaam brother

Thank you for adding most important advice to a son from a wise father, indeed no one can guide to the straight path except ALLAAH.

peace

StopS

This is exactly why I asked for your definition.

Mercy, as a category, is separate but not in itself inconsistent with justice.
Mercy is most definitely NOT the opposite of justice. The opposite of justice would be...well, injustice. So your "case against God" would be that he is unjust, not that he has contradicted his mercy.
You were asked for a definition that would result in a "problem of evil", no such definition was provided.

I did not mention justice. Yes, because it is not based on decrees or laws, mercy contradicts justice and a just sentence.
No idea what justice is doing here. I am not in any way bringing up a case against any god. That would be absurd for an atheist. Please use basic logics. I am showing that the concept used by humans is flawed and contradictory.
Wow, you really refuse to use your own braincells. Well, if you need to be spoon-fed, here goes
I did not say anything about "the problem of evil". If that is what you are trying to read into this, you are wrong.
I asked 3 (three) questions. You did not answer a single (of the 3) questions.
I did not use the word mercy.
You assumed something and told me I failed. Based on your faulty understanding.
To be friendly and accommodating, I provided a definition which could serve for any further discussion.
If you have a problem understanding "the problem of evil" I suggest you open a new thread and keep this one for the topic at hand.

The attribute of mercy/compassion requires an object, even if reflexive. God does not need/have mercy on himself therefore it does not apply to God ad intra, but only to creatures.

Wrong! Repeating a stupidity does not make it right. I am unable to show mercy towards my desk. Mercy is exclusively reserved for living beings, not dead objects.

How do you get to that remarkable knowledge about a god? How do you know what a god needs?

Re-read my definition. You're basically saying the same thing.

It would help indicating that you understand something.

Define super-natural? Mercy can be shown only to a living object. Yet the subject must be rational in order for the act to be interpreted as "merciful/compassionate".

Define super natural (question mark)?? Does that mean you don't know what super-natural is or you don't know the expression? You need to be more precise. Now suddenly you contradict yourself and agree mercy can only be shown to a living being. Are you sure you know what you want? What "subject must be rational"? What are you talking about? Is the subject what shows mercy or is shown mercy? Why is any kind or form or rationality necessary?

No such thing was shown, as I will demonstrate below.

Well, I DID show what I claim I showed. If you don't understand it or reject it, that is a different story altogether. So please stop mixing facts with emotional, wishful thinking.

The term "maximum" is ambiguous. The just Judge will punish to the extant that it is required by the law.
If the law demands death and the judge does not provide it, then he is no longer just. He may be compassionate and merciful, but just he is not. For justice requires that the criminal be punished to the extant that the law demands, in principle. If not, then it would be equally "just" to fine a murderer a 100$, when the law requires his life. I think so far we agree.

No, it is not! Why don't you try to falsify your claims? You can't get more, higher, faster, further, etc than maximum. You can't have less or it is not the maximum.
Extant? I suppose you mean extent. Here you are right for a change. And that is why I used the word "heinous". I used that very word to ensure the reader will understand that this entails the worst possible crime without specifying the details. I used that word to make sure that it is the worst possible crime which requires the highest punishment - which is why I used the word "maximum". It's actually quite easy the way I present it.
That is my point. Mercy overrides just. You can't have a just and merciful sentence.

This presumes mercy (i.e. spared hell) must be provided to all. Whereas, if God spares only one, then he is merciful.

No, why?
Showing mercy sometimes is not the same as generally merciful.
The word merciful or mercy appears almost 300 times in the Koran, indicating some importance.
Now I am not using facts, but I am interpreting the usage of mercy and merciful together with "most" or "all" does not indicate the occasional show of mercy.
The Koran starts off with "In the name of Allah, the Entirely Merciful, the Especially Merciful", not exactly saying "Allah, the occasionally Merciful, the sometimes Merciful".
I don't know how well you know Islamic texts, but if you look at the Qudsi Hadiths, the sayings directly attributed to Allah, the first one says 'My mercy prevails over my wrath.'
Humans apply the attributes "just" and "merciful", which can't be sometimes and occasionally, or it would mean that this god is omnipotent occasionally or omniscient occasionally.

Notice the definitions you provided did not necessitate that one act as such with all persons, in all situations, and in all times. Therefore, you have gone beyond your own definition.
Your idea of "mercy" is not even human, since no one would qualify as "merciful" if he ever acted with justice. It would be the equivalent of saying If a man only loves his wife, and does not "love" every other woman in this way, then he is unloving. An obvious non sequitur.

This is your private and personal interpretation. I disagree.
Correct! I am applying this to a god.
Correct! If someone is only loving occasionally, I would not call that person all-loving.
If someone is merciful only occasionally, I would not call that person all-merciful.

Explain why it is relevant what people on earth are experiencing.
Hell is the punishment for being guilty before God. In this, God is glorified for his justice.
Heaven is the unmerited favour that God bestows on unworthy sinners, for whom he, out of pure grace and mercy, has provided a legal satisfaction for their sins, thus removing their guilt. In this, God is glorified for his mercy.
Unless you accept that all men born of Adam, by natural generation, are completely spiritually dead and inclined only to evil, then you will not accept my justification.
If you think men are born "tabla raza" as for instance Roman Catholicism and Islam teach, then you will not accept God's judgement as being just.
These latter issues relate to scripture, and whether you accept what it teaches.

It is reality. If there are claims that prayer works or that there is fine-tuning or a super-natural, divine being which has created the Universe and humans with a purpose then I would expect to see just that. I don't .
Fine, but that precludes mercy. Fine, but that means I was created by an omniscient creator who already then knew I would be punished by a "merciful" being with hell for a lack of a belief.
Sure, but not for those who did not experience the all merciful side. It is not based on any legal or defines system, as a believer gets rewarded and a non-believer does not regardless of guilt.
What does "born of Adam" mean? I was born by my mother. What justification do you provide? All I see is emotional pleading and special pleading.
I suppose you mean "Tabula Rasa". Catholics do the opposite of what you claim. Catholics insinuate an original sin. I do not know of any claim regarding the sin in a foetus or a baby in Islam.

Remember your initial claim was this

Wrong! I asked 3 questions. I did NOT make a claim. Please do not misrepresent what I say.

You contrasted mercy with "torturing" people on earth and then in hell. Strictly speaking this is irrelevant to God, qua creator. It is not the office of a creator to be merciful, as you agreed. It is the office of a creator, to do whatever he pleases with his creation.

Yes, I did.
I think that a merciful being is unable to apply torture.
I think that a merciful being is unable to apply torture here on Earth and then again when we are dead.
I think that a merciful being is unable to apply torture for an eternity.
I think that a merciful being is unable to apply torture for an eternity for the crime of not believing something.

I don't punish my dog if he eats the piece of meat I left on the table while I go and get some water. It is my fault for leaving a piece of meat within his reach. But then, I am not a god.

Nevertheless the God of scripture, is not God because he created. He would be God without any creation. Therefore, your complaint is without merit; however if you wish to discuss whether God is just, qua judge, that would be another issue.

Thus, as we have seen, you have defined mercy to be "the opposite of just". This is false, mercy is categorically not the opposite of justice. Rather, mercy can be considered generally inconsistent with justice; yet not absolutely and in principle. However, even then your contention is misplaced, for you ought to say that God cannot be merciful, as a just judge, not as creator. For, as I stated in point 4 above, God does indeed show that he is merciful and loving; though these attributes do not correspond to God, qua creator or even judge. Rather these attributes correspond to God qua God; that is, in his person.

I am not complaining, I am asking. If you interpret this as complaining, then this is your erroneous impression. Think logically why would I complain? About something where I lack the belief that there is evidence for its existence?
For both Plato and Aristotle, the Golden mean of justice could be located in the concept of fairness. Justice, as fairness, means that people get exactly what they deserve - no more, no less. Showing mercy isn't a matter of being kind or nice, showing sympathy or pity. It is the act of NOT doing justice. It is a clash of virtues, where the one precludes the other.
If we look at the strict linguistic definitions then you are right and I am wrong mercy is not the opposite or antonym of just. However, looking at acts towards living beings they are opposites. If you want to create a special exception for something, then that is your prerogative.

aabdul

If a god is just, the punishment for sin is hell. If this god is merciful as defined above the punishment should not be hell. But hell exists. And the god is called merciful. A logical contradiction.

Dear StopS,

It seems you are not aware the Quranic view. It is true, mercy is an emotional reaction which can obviously find no place in the working of law and justice. Still, there is a place for "forgiveness" and "mercy" as will be seen from the following example. You put your finger in fire and it gets burnt. And you must suffer the consequence? the pain and agony which is its inevitable result. There is no question of anybody forgiving you or taking mercy on you. But the same God Who has made the law that fire burns and pain is its inevitable result, has made another law. It is that a certain medicine has the property of giving relief to the pain and effacing the devastating result of burning. A recourse to this law of God would do away with the painful result of your former action. The provision of this second law is "mercy" from God, and obedience of this law results in "forgiveness" of our wrong doing. That is Allah?s clemency (rahma). This fact can be useful only to those who know and utilize it. This, in the Quranic sense, is tauba (repentance), i.e., efforts to rectify a mistake. This point is aptly illustrated in the figurative story of Man?s creation. Both Man and the Devil erred but whereas Man repented and was willing to rectify his error, the Devil refused to confess, standing defiant.

The Quran elaborates it in Sura AzZumr ?Say (O My Messenger) to those who have done wrong to themselves, ?Don?t lose hope of Allah?s clemency. Verily, He has created means of recovering all falterings. He certainly is the Protector and Clement!? Come back to your Preserver and submit to Him before your error bears result, after which no one will be able to come to your aid? --- (39/53-55). Elsewhere, it is clarified thus ?When they, who are convinced of Our laws, come to you (My Messenger), say to them ?Peace be upon you as your Preserver has bound upon Himself to be clement, i.e., anyone of you who unknowingly falters, then repents and rectifies it, shall find Allah protecting and clement?? --- (654).

This is not to be taken as a license to commit wrongs. It says ?This is how your Preserver shall be clement to you. But if you return (to your ways), Our system ( of punishment) shall return to you. 178

Every action of man is recorded and the consequences inevitably follow. Good, however, prevails over bad. The consequences of a wrong action can be nullified by a right act. "Good deeds", says the Quran, "annul bad deed" (11 114). The fate of the individual or of the nation, therefore, depends on which kind of actions predominate; "As for him whose scales are heavy (with good works) he will live a pleasant life" (101 6-11)

"And if ye avoid the great things which ye are forbidden, We will remit from your lapses and make you enter a noble gate" (432) (since constructive results of ones noble deeds outweigh the destructive consequences of your actions).

Wakas

In another thread Ahmad Bilal raises the same issues. I answered him with this

You have failed to provide a definition of "omnibenevolence" or "mercy" etc, which would result in any "problem of evil".
The attribute of mercy has relevance only to an object; it presupposes creation and has no relevance to God ad intra. Thus, whatever your definition of "mercy etc" may be, it cannot result in God contradicting himself ontologically.
Categories such as mercy or justice have no relevance to God, qua creator. Therefore your objection falls away, as God, qua creator, "...does whatever he wills with the armies of heaven and earth, and none can stay his hand and all the inhabitants of the earth are esteemed as nothing." It would be like going up to an artist and saying your work is "unmerciful" or "unjust", such categories are irrelevant

Interesting.

StopS

Dear StopS,

It seems you are not aware the Quranic view.

If you make a claim like this, why don't you show where or why you make this?
I am comparing just/merciful, what humans say, in the sentence you outline.

Your example of "You put your finger in fire and it gets burnt" does not really apply here. We are talking about human beings who do not do anything or ask for anything and who, through no action of their own, experience extreme suffering.

Your quotes "He has created means of recovering all falterings" and "anyone of you who unknowingly falters, then repents and rectifies it, shall find Allah protecting and clement" insinuates that there is nothing that will not be forgiven. Is this really true? Why would I need to repent if a judge is the "most merciful"? Is there a list of what requires repentance and what will be handled as merciful?

"And if ye avoid the great things which ye are forbidden" would not require any mercy, would it?

es

Out of courtesy, thank you all for your contributions (even 'StopS'!).

I have come across some interesting viewpoints, many of which I share myself. However, this seems to have become a discussion about much broader issues than which I anticipated. To reiterate-and for clarification- my query was "Why did God create a worm, whose sole purpose of existence seems to be to blind (five year old African boys)"?

Thank you.

God bless you all. May God increase our understanding and make us better people (AMEN!)

Salaam.

aabdul

To reiterate-and for clarification- my query was "Why did God create a worm, whose sole purpose of existence seems to be to blind (five year old African boys)"?

Thank you.

In the first place, medical scientists need to investigate and find reasons why such a worm is created (certainly there will be a cause and effect - a scientific reason why such a worm was created and a human reason why it came in the eye of the boy), but to say that "the sole purpose of existence seems to to be to bind five year old african boy" is a misleading statement. God is never unfair to any people (4146).

God does not whimsically cause any problem for anyone. God has set standards and measures for everything. Just to state an example, there is one place in south india, where the plantation corporation aerially sprayed endosulfan pesticide (banned in several countries) in an area of nearly 5000 acres and today the villagers who live close to the plantation are paying the price, average one in a family is born with physical deformities, and the area is dotted with tragedy struck families battling physical deformities, cancers and disorders of the central nervous system. Also the number of women getting pregnant in these villages is so low compared to national average. Here who is responsible for the calamity? Is it Man or God? Allah says, ?There is no calamity but brought upon you by your own hands? (4230). In Chapter Aal-Imran, it states that when people are struck by an affliction, they wonder where it came from ( &#1575 - ? Tell them ?it is of your own doing? (3164)

"Glorify the name of thy Guardian-Lord Most High Who hath created, and further, given order and proportion; Who hath ordained laws."(871-3)

aabdul

Why would I need to repent if a judge is the "most merciful"?

Admitting one's fault and make amends is a basic pre-condition for forgiveness and mercy. There is possible even without repentance one may be forgiven for any specific sins committed (Allah knows) provided "As for him whose scales are heavy (with good works) he will live a pleasant life" (101 6-11); "whosoever submits himself completely to God and he is the doer of good, shall have his reward from his Lord. No fear shall come on them nor shall they grieve." 2112

Some Talibani criminals shot and seriously injured a girl who wants to learn and openly declared they will shoot her again at the next opportunity. Do you expect any "most merciful" to forgive them?