Verses 4:150 and 4:151 - shocking?
-
What to make of these verses?
4150
"Those who deny Allah and His messengers, and (those who) wish to separate Allah from His messengers, saying "We believe in some but reject others" And (those who) wish to take a course midway"
4151
"They are in truth (equally) unbelievers; and we have prepared for unbelievers a humiliating punishment."
When it says that those people believe in some Messengers but rejects others, I take it to mean groups who perhaps believed in Moses but not Muhammad. Or any other group that believed in any particular Messenger but would not believe in Muhammad.
A following verses states
Pickthall
But those who believe in Allah and His messengers and make no distinction between any of them, unto them Allah will give their wages; and Allah was ever Forgiving, Merciful. (4152)Shakir
And those who believe in Allah and His messengers and do not make a distinction between any of them-- Allah will grant them their rewards; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. (4152)This verse seems to me to reiterate that all of the Messengers who bring the same Message and the Proof that we treat them equally. It reminds me of the verse that we do not take one Messenger as better over another (2285) - e.g. a trend amongst some is to say Prophet Muhammad is the best of creation and essentially saying he is also best of the Messengers.
-
When it says that those people believe in some Messengers but rejects others, I take it to mean groups who perhaps believed in Moses but not Muhammad. Or any other group that believed in any particular Messenger but would not believe in Muhammad.
A following verses states
Pickthall
But those who believe in Allah and His messengers and make no distinction between any of them, unto them Allah will give their wages; and Allah was ever Forgiving, Merciful. (4152)Shakir
And those who believe in Allah and His messengers and do not make a distinction between any of them-- Allah will grant them their rewards; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. (4152)This verse seems to me to reiterate that all of the Messengers who bring the same Message and the Proof that we treat them equally. It reminds me of the verse that we do not take one Messenger as better over another (2285) - e.g. a trend amongst some is to say Prophet Muhammad is the best of creation and essentially saying he is also best of the Messengers.
I would like to add a verse to the equation
1047 And for every nation is a messenger; so when their messenger comes, the matter is decreed between them with justice, and they are not wronged.
-
What to make of these verses?
4150
"Those who deny Allah and His messengers, and (those who) wish to separate Allah from His messengers, saying "We believe in some but reject others" And (those who) wish to take a course midway"
4151
"They are in truth (equally) unbelievers; and we have prepared for unbelievers a humiliating punishment."
What's shockin' about it?
-
What's shockin' about it?
Like I said here he looked at "seperate Allah for his messenger" and saw the arguments Sunnis bring that Quranist are seperating the Sunnah from Islam.
This was Al Shafi's logic. Shafi seperated the Quran from the Sunnah by claiming obey God and his messenger is talking about the Quran and the Sunnah as two seperate sources.
It never occurs to Sunnis that if you follow the Quran you are following the prophet's sunnah because they are one.
The actual verse he stated is not talking about that but Sunnis use that.
-
This is what I understand from this verse
Muhsin Khan
Verily, those who disbelieve in Allah and His Messengers and wish to make distinction between Allah and His Messengers (by believing in Allah and disbelieving in His Messengers) saying, "We believe in some but reject others," and wish to adopt a way in between.
They are in truth disbelievers. And We have prepared for the disbelievers a humiliating torment.
This is how I understand it when I read this verse. Albeit I almost panicked for a second, when I first read it, however I quickly realized this has nothing to do with hadiths, but it's really about rejecting messengers. For example those that reject Prophet Muhammad having been a messenger from Allah, are addressed in this verse, in my opinion.
on a side note, I get the notion that this verse is also saying that if you disbelieve in a messenger, you disbelieve in Allah. Quite scary to me, since I believe there may be messengers after Muhammad (not prophets).
-
on a side note, I get the notion that this verse is also saying that if you disbelieve in a messenger, you disbelieve in Allah. Quite scary to me, since I believe there may be messengers after Muhammad (not prophets).
I also think that there are other messengers (but not prophets) after Muhammad, but I don't think that has to be a scary thought. You can't be blamed for not heeding a message you never heard. As long as you're paying attention to what's available to you, I don't think anyone has to worry about missing something. Or am I guessing wrong in why the thought of more messengers is scary to you?
-
I also think that there are other messengers (but not prophets) after Muhammad, but I don't think that has to be a scary thought. You can't be blamed for not heeding a message you never heard. As long as you're paying attention to what's available to you, I don't think anyone has to worry about missing something. Or am I guessing wrong in why the thought of more messengers is scary to you?
Hi D.
Well it's scary to me because of the punishment Allah says I would get if I disbelieved in any of his messengers...see my problem? .
There are people everywhere popping up claiming to be messengers from God...I'm scared I might reject a true messenger one day, while trying to sift through the crazies.
I want so badly not to be blind , and be able to identify a true messenger from Allah. I'm afraid I'd be too dumb, deaf or blind to see the truth.
-
Hi D.
Well it's scary to me because of the punishment Allah says I would get if I disbelieved in any of his messengers...see my problem? P.
There are people everywhere popping up claiming to be messengers from God...I'm scared I might reject a true messenger one day, while trying to sift through the crazies.
I want so badly not to be blind , and be able to identify a true messenger from Allah. I'm afraid I'd be too dumb, deaf or blind to see the truth.
I see your point, but is it really "disbelief" if the message seemed off? I don't think that God would play games with us and send someone who would be dismissed as crazy with a true message. I just tell myself that as long as I'm not intentionally dismissing anything out of hand, God won't punish me for an oversight. Also, the Quran says that people are only held accountable for what they were capable of. So, if a message were to come to you, but you didn't understand it, I don't think that's your fault or something you could be punished for.
In the end, I think as long as you're worried about missing a message, you're very unlikely to. Your eyes are open too wide for anything to slip by undetected. ;D
-
I see your point, but is it really "disbelief" if the message seemed off? I don't think that God would play games with us and send someone who would be dismissed as crazy with a true message. I just tell myself that as long as I'm not intentionally dismissing anything out of hand, God won't punish me for an oversight. Also, the Quran says that people are only held accountable for what they were capable of. So, if a message were to come to you, but you didn't understand it, I don't think that's your fault or something you could be punished for.
In the end, I think as long as you're worried about missing a message, you're very unlikely to. Your eyes are open too wide for anything to slip by undetected. ;D
Thank you so much for these comforting words. You have no idea how much lighter the chip on my shoulder just got ))). I can sleep now! Al hamdulilah. I pray you are right and may we all be guided to the right path always.
-
What to make of these verses?
4150
"Those who deny Allah and His messengers, and (those who) wish to separate Allah from His messengers, saying "We believe in some but reject others" And (those who) wish to take a course midway"
4151
"They are in truth (equally) unbelievers; and we have prepared for unbelievers a humiliating punishment."
Hmm... Something shocking to me as well.
Does this mean the Sunni way of praying for the prophet is fine by the Quran?
-
Like I said here he looked at "seperate Allah for his messenger" and saw the arguments Sunnis bring that Quranist are seperating the Sunnah from Islam.
This was Al Shafi's logic. Shafi seperated the Quran from the Sunnah by claiming obey God and his messenger is talking about the Quran and the Sunnah as two seperate sources.
It never occurs to Sunnis that if you follow the Quran you are following the prophet's sunnah because they are one.
The actual verse he stated is not talking about that but Sunnis use that.
To me, "We believe in some but reject others" seems to clear up that it's referencing people who claim to believe in God but reject His prophets.
-
on a side note, I get the notion that this verse is also saying that if you disbelieve in a messenger, you disbelieve in Allah. Quite scary to me, since I believe there may be messengers after Muhammad (not prophets).
I've been dealing with this issue since meeting Submitters and learning about Rashad Khalifa. So much of what he said makes complete sense. Preaching Quran alone, chapter 74. Then he goes and says all this nutty stuff outside of Quran. I haven't been able to accept his messengership claim with a clear conscience. But I'm also afraid to bash him. The matter seems so unclear to me. Then there are many Submitters who say he was indeed a messenger but was fallible. Ok, no one is perfect. But could a messenger really be so wrong on so many issues? I don't know. And does it really matter to my salvation whether he was or wasn't a messenger? I don't know. Confusing and stressful!
-
I've been dealing with this issue since meeting Submitters and learning about Rashad Khalifa. So much of what he said makes complete sense. Preaching Qurain alone, chapter 74. Then he goes and says all this nutty stuff outside of Quran. I haven't been able to accept his messengership claim with a clear conscience. But I'm also afraid to bash him. The matter seems so unclear to me. Then there are many Submitters who say he was indeed a messenger but was fallible. Ok, no one is perfect. But could a messenger really be so wrong on so many issues? I don't know. And does it really matter to my salvation whether he was or wasn't a messenger? I don't know. Confusing and stressful!
I know how that feels! Im confused about Rashad Khalifa as well. For some reason I get a bad feeling about him, which is why im not convinced he was a messenger, but I know that not a logical reason. I admire his research but I disagree with a lot of it including the subjectivity Farouk A Peru discussed in his debate with Edip Yuksel.
Who knows, perhaps I am wrong. May Allah guide me. But for now I just cant accept him with a clear consience like you said. -
What to make of these verses?
4150
"Those who deny Allah and His messengers, and (those who) wish to separate Allah from His messengers, saying "We believe in some but reject others" And (those who) wish to take a course midway"
4151
"They are in truth (equally) unbelievers; and we have prepared for unbelievers a humiliating punishment."
There is no need to get shocked. If you understand the verse in this way there is no problem.
"Those who deny Allah and His Rusul, those who believe in the Laws of Allah operating in the outer universe (i.e. Laws of Nature) but do not believe in the Laws given by Him through His Rusul for the guidance of mankind, and those who accept a part of these Laws, rejecting the others and desire to take a course in-between, all of them are truly unbelievers."
http//www.tolueislam.org/Parwez/expo/expo_004.htm
-
I would like to add a verse to the equation
1047 And for every nation is a messenger; so when their messenger comes, the matter is decreed between them with justice, and they are not wronged.
It's still pretty much the same for me... as the Reminder is preserved and that Prophet Muhammad is the seal of the Prophets (3340) it would indicate that we have had our Messenger and Message.
What are your thoughts? )
-
It's still pretty much the same for me... as the Reminder is preserved and that Prophet Muhammad is the seal of the Prophets (3340) it would indicate that we have had our Messenger and Message.
What are your thoughts? )
Salam
Well actually I think 3340 is the proof that a prophet and messenger may be two different things. The verse states messenger and the seal of prophets, not the seal of messengers and prophets. Please note I write may be two different things.....
But a messenger is someone who confirms what the prophet brought. Prophet Muhammed was a prophet because he was given the Quran, but he was also a messenger to confirm the teachings of Abraham, Moses, Jesus etc.
Muhammed was the last prophet, end of story (3340) On the same time there are multiple messengers conveying the one message(1047) We should not separate them from Allah, meaning we should not think they are creating a new prophecy.(4150)
Does this make sense?
-
Salam
Well actually I think 3340 is the proof that a prophet and messenger may be two different things. The verse states messenger and the seal of prophets, not the seal of messengers and prophets. Please note I write may be two different things.....
But a messenger is someone who confirms what the prophet brought. Prophet Muhammed was a prophet because he was given the Quran, but he was also a messenger to confirm the teachings of Abraham, Moses, Jesus etc.
Muhammed was the last prophet, end of story (3340) On the same time there are multiple messengers conveying the one message(1047) We should not separate them from Allah, meaning we should not think they are creating a new prophecy.(4150)
Does this make sense?
I think it makes a lot of sense actually. But does that fit the context of 4150 specifically? I dont know.
Btw did you notice that 1047 is written in present continuos tense? (Forgive me if wrong). Very interesting.. it doesnt use a past tense. But that could serve another purpose. Who knows?
-
I think it makes a lot of sense actually. But does that fit the context of 4150 specifically? I dont know.
Btw did you notice that 1047 is written in present continuos tense? (Forgive me if wrong). Very interesting.. it doesnt use a past tense. But that could serve another purpose. Who knows?
Debate Jews about these issues. Ask them what they think of Jesus and the Quran. Mostly ask them about Jesus and the Gospel and Paul. You will understand those verses well. The Quran comments on many of the debates and confrontation the prophet had with pagans and Jews.
-
First of all point out that what has been translated as unbelievers in 4.151 is the arabic "kafirun". And what has been translated as deny is the verb kafara of the same import and both are very strong term, very, very, very strong expression. To translate it by a mere unbelievers, when we do not even know what the disbelief concerns, because it may be a mere image in the mind that we have come to distrust because it has come to us as a lie or mingled with lies. We disbelieve things may be as a knee jerk reacctionh and tha may indicate any understanding of what we pretend that we disbelieve when seen through other peopl'e eyes.
Kafara is to hide the truth, which is something very different from not believing that something is true. If you don't believe something, you cannot help it, but if you hide the truth deliberately you are indeed a wicked person.
So those who hide the truth deliberately and those who disociate Allah from his messengers and those who kid themselves that they can take a middle course between truth and hiding the truth, are in fact hiding the truth. And what happens to those who hide the truth is that they do not need anybody's help to get in trouble and humiliation, they are getting themselves into it, because the consequence of hiding the truth the truth of themselves or any truth is that when you keep it under, when it comes out it will wreck havoc on those it catches umprepared for its coming to light.
SalaamAgreed
Also disbelief can be a consequence of ignorance (jahiliya) or not knowing any
better or a state of unawareness, but kufr is a conspiracy against the truth and
in the case of ayat of 4150, picking and choosing what to honor is an act of the kfirun.My arabic is a work in progress please correct where necessary.
Peace
-
Salam
Well actually I think 3340 is the proof that a prophet and messenger may be two different things. The verse states messenger and the seal of prophets, not the seal of messengers and prophets. Please note I write may be two different things.....
But a messenger is someone who confirms what the prophet brought. Prophet Muhammed was a prophet because he was given the Quran, but he was also a messenger to confirm the teachings of Abraham, Moses, Jesus etc.
Muhammed was the last prophet, end of story (3340) On the same time there are multiple messengers conveying the one message(1047) We should not separate them from Allah, meaning we should not think they are creating a new prophecy.(4150)
Does this make sense?
It makes sense, I can understand why you have arrived at your conclusions. I have to look into these terms further but the Messenger role could be a separate term as it encompasses Angels, and other beings including humans? Whereas, the term Prophet is far more specific but being a Messenger is also part of Prophethood.
I suppose my question would be how do you define Messenger in terms of the Quran? Would you view any human being who is confirming the Reminder contained in the Quran as a Messenger of sorts?