Winter Ramadan Investigation (as outlined by The Natural Republic)

[raginggaijin]

Salaam
with this kind of proof, just by changing images in the video, i can let watcher think that Disneyland is Masjid Haram and that Beyt Allah is House of Mickey.

But when the viewer goes to the ayats posted, they'll find instead Masjid al-Haram named, the description of its locale, and what is the purpose of Bayt al-Haram. Not to mention they'll also read about Masjid al-Aqsa and how the Temple of the Yahudians was destroyed twice for their turning away from Allah's straight path.

Yet you won't find Disneyland or the 'house of Mickey' in those ayats. )

Dear, raginggaijin, i think that discussion will be very difficult with you.

Peace

On the contrary, I am the one bringing evidence from the Quran to prove why I believe what I believe.

You bring... nothing. Well, nothing except insult and invalidation; the lowest form of rhetoric.

If you don't believe as I believe, that's fine. I'm not here to compel anyone to believe as I do.
If you can't refute what I've shown, that's fine as well. That is helpful to me in my own search for Truth Truth destroys falsehood. It is evidence I am onto something, and to continue down this path of research.

But don't get angry. Just go your way and allow Allah to judge between us come the Day of the Afterlife.

Just understand that I'm not a Jew nor a Christian. I don't follow their ways or the Books sent to the families of the Book. I follow only the Quran; the Book sent to my people.

Allah is sufficient for me. I submit my will to Him alone.

Peace. )

[raginggaijin]

Dear, raginggaijin, i think that discussion will be very difficult with you.

Let's be clear I disagree.

You don't like videos?
Then let's bring evidence without pretty pictures.

First, our qiblah - Masjid al-Haram.

I have to start from the beginning. I reject all beliefs taught by man, and follow only what Allah reveals in the Quran.
I have to study and research the original Arabic revelation for the Truth.
Follow only what Allah revealed Surah 299, 6155, 6106, 73, 7157, 7203-204, 864, 10109, 12111, 332, 1736,1827-28, 159, 2848-49, 3529, 496, 5417,22,32,40, 7518, 8521-22, 961, 981-8

The qiblah is our bearing and our place of offering; a masjid we face to show whose teachings we follow and a focal point for all to gather when we give our offerings to Allah.
The qiblah is found in previous Books and other faiths. They will not follow our bearing, nor do we follow their bearing. Many don?t even follow their own bearing.

Qiblah shows whose teachings we follow Surah 2143
Qiblah is a command from Allah Surah 729
?Say 'My Lord has commanded justice. Set your faces (wujoohakum) in every place of worship (masjidin) and call on Him, making your religion (alddeena) sincerely His. As He originated you so you will return;? Surah 729

"And We did not make that which thou wouldst have to be the place of devotion but that We might distinguish him who follows the Messenger from him who turns back upon his heels. And it was indeed a hard test except for those whom Allah has guided." Surah 2143

Moses and Aaron were told to turn their homes (buyootakum) in Egypt into a qiblah - a bearing (qiblatan) Surah 1087

We are told Bacca, a holy place in a valley, contains the Holy House, the home (maqami) of Abraham. Surah 396-97, 1437
"Our Lord, I have made some of my seed to dwell in a valley (biwadin) where is no sown land by Thy Sacred House (baytika almuharrami); Our Lord, let them perform the prayer, and make hearts of men yearn towards them, and provide them with fruits; haply they will be thankful." Surah 1437

?The first House (awwala baytin) established for the people (lilnnasi) was that at Bakka (bibakkata), a place holy, and a guidance (wahudan) to all beings (lilAAalameena).
Therein are clear signs (ayatun) -- the station (maqamu) of Abraham, and whosoever enters it is in security. It is the duty of all men towards Allah to come to the House (albayti) a pilgrim, if he is able to make his way there. As for the unbeliever, Allah is All-sufficient nor needs any being.? Surah 396-97

The location of the place of Abraham (pbuh) is a sign. Surah 396-97
The station/home (maqami) of Abraham Surah 2125, 397, 2226
maqami A sphere of duty, a place of importance established for service to Allah.

?Say 'O my people, act according to your station (makanatikum); I am acting. And assuredly you will know who shall possess the Abode Ultimate. Surely the evildoers will not prosper.'? Surah 6135
?and We will surely make you to dwell in the land after them -- that, for him who fears My station (maqamee) and fears My threat.'? Surah 1414
?And as for the night, keep vigil a part of it, as a work of supererogation for thee; it may be that thy Lord will raise thee up to a laudable station (maqaman).? Surah 1779

Abraham (pbuh) asked Allah to bless the House (bayt), and to raise up a Messenger from his lineage. Surah 2127-129
Abraham?s wife lived there as well. Surah 1173
Allah clearly states Abraham was neither a Jew nor a Christian. Surah 2140

No where in the Quran is Hagar mentioned.

The Quran is the verifier of the previous Books. Surah 548
We are warned about following the low desires of those who inherited previous Books. Surah 549, 577

If there is a qiblah in the Quran, then the previous Books would have one to verify using the Criterion (Furqan) that is the Quran. And there is
Solomon's qiblah I Kings 822-44, Surah 171, 174-7, 9107, 3413
"...Even heaven and the highest heaven cannot contain you, much less this house that I have built! Regard your servant's prayer and his plea, O Lord my God, heeding the cry and the prayer that your servant prays to you today... Hear the plea of your servant and of your people Israel when they pray toward this place... When heaven is shut up and there is no rain because they have sinned against you, and then they pray towards this place, confess your name, and turn from their sin..." I Kings 822-44

Daniel faced Jerusalem during prayer Dan. 610
Isa set his face toward Jerusalem Luke 951-56

Al-Aqsa Mosque, the Farthest Mosque, is named in the Quran. Surah 171

"Glory be to Him, who carried His servant by night from the Sacred Mosque (almasjidi alharami) to the Further Mosque (almasjidi alaqsa) the precincts (hawlahu) of which We have blessed (barakna), that We might show him some of Our signs. He is the All-hearing, the All-seeing." Surah 171

It is the Temple in Jerusalem, destroyed twice for the disobedience of the Bani Israel. Surah 174-7, 1760, 9107

Hadith teaches to face the Kaaba in prayer. Is the Kaaba my qiblah?

"And when We made the House (Bayt) a resort for men and a security. And Take ye the station (maqami) of Abraham for a place of prayer. And We enjoined Abraham and Ishmael, saying Purify My House (Bayt) for those who visit and those who abide for devotion and those who bow down, those who prostrated themselves." Surah 2125

People can not prostrate themselves inside the Kaaba, the Bayt Al-Haram,
They prostrate inside Masjid Al-Haram, the Sacred Mosque, in Mecca.

We are Muslims. We perform the rites of Allah (shaAAa-iri Allahi) as He described in the Quran.
Hajj Surah 2158, 2189, 2196-197, 397, 51-2, 595-97, 91-5, 919, 2225-30. 2267, 6310, 7320
Pilgrimage a duty to those able to make their way there Surah 397
What to do if you cannot make Hajj Surah 2196-197
Hajj is annual Surah 2196-197
Days/Months well known Surah 2197, 936, 2228
Holy months are consecutive Surah 91-5, 936-37
Months of pilgrimage Surah 1062
Sacred month of Hajj Surah 2194, 2217, 52, 597, 91-5
Day of Greater Pilgrimage (beginning of 4 months) Surah 93
Fasting if you hunt during Hajj Surah 595

If we were to sacrifice inside the Ancient House, the ayat would read 'bibayti alAAateeqi' as it does in Surah 2229.

We know the Sacred Mosque was around during Muhammad's time because it is written in the Quran "O you who believe, the idolators are surely unclean, so they shall not approach the Sacred Mosque after this year of theirs." Surah 928

The qiblah of Muslims who follow the Quran is Masjid Al-Haram.

"they give food, for the love of Him, to the needy, the orphan, the captive" Surah 768

The original Arabic in Surah 2 142-150 states 'Masjid Al-Haram'.
The Sacred Mosque.

We are to face Masjid Al-Haram, the Sacred Mosque. Surah 2144, 2149, 2150. Allah tells us this three (3) times.
Allah tells us three (3) times "This is truth from thy Lord, so be thou not of the doubters." Surah 2144, 2147, 2149

Surah 2225-33 differentiates between Masjid Al-Haram and Bayt Al-Haram. Bayt is House.
Sacred House (albayta alharama) Surah 52, 597, 1437
The House (albayti) Surah 2125, 396, 835, 2226
Ancient House (albayti alAAateeqi) Surah 2229, 2233

Masjid is Mosque.
Sacred Mosque (almasjidi alharamu) Surah 2144, 2149, 2150, 2191, 2196, 2217, 52, 834, 97, 919, 928, 171, 2225, 4825, 4827

Allah makes sure we know the Kaaba is known as the Sacred House in Surah 597. The Kaaba is the place sacrifice.
The Kaaba, the destination for offerings, is named in the Quran. Surah 595-97, 2233
Sacrifice (nusukin) Surah 2128, 2196, 2200, 6162, 2234, 2267
Offering (alhadyu) Surah 2196, 52, 595, 597, 4825
Lawful place/destination (maillahu) Surah 2196, 2233, 4825
Cattle (al-anAAami) Surah 51, 6142, 2228, 2234, 2549, 3528, 396, 4712

You cannot live in the Kaaba, but families live(d) in Masjid Al-Haram. Surah 2196, 2225, 2791, 2967, 4824

Safa and Marwah are mountain ranges found between Midian and Mecca, mined for quartz and stone.

"Safa and Marwah are signs of Allah; so whoever makes a pilgrimage to the House or pays a visit, there is no blame on him if he goes round them." Surah 2158
"And We set, between them and the towns (alqura)that We have blessed (barakna), cities apparent (quran thahiratan) and well We measured (waqaddarna) the journey (alssayra) between them 'Journey among them by night and day in security!'" Surah 3418
Movement/moving (alssayra/sayran) Surah 3418, 5210

"I have only been commanded to serve the Lord of this territory (hathihi) which He has made sacred (harramaha); to Him belongs everything. And I have been commanded to be of those that surrender (almuslimeena)," Surah 2791

The Valley of Baca is spoken of as well in Psalm 841-12
"Blessed are those whose strength is in you,
in whose heart are the highways to Zion.
As they go through the Valley of Baca
they make it a place of springs;
the early rain also covers it with pools.
They go from strength to strength;
each one appears before God in Zion.
LORD God of hosts, hear my prayer;
give ear, O God of Jacob!" Psalm 845-8

Baca (Hebrew 'emeq habakka&#039 Psalm 841-12, Surah 396

I am told this ?Valley of Baca? is not the same spoken of in the Quran. After all, Zion is in Jerusalem, right?
Let us turn to the Bible to see if their teachings refute their claims.

We know the Temple in Jerusalem is not the station of Abraham, as Al-Aqsa Mosque, the Farthest Mosque found in Jerusalem, is named in the Quran. Surah 171
Allah gives description of this Temple and its destruction ? twice ? in the Quran. It is the Temple of the Children of Israel. 174-7,1760
This Temple was created by Solomon (pbuh) and is the qiblah of the Bani Israel and the Yahudians.

Solomon's qiblah I Kings 822-44

People say there is no indication of Pilgrimage in the Bible, yet the Quran shows Moses (pbuh) designated a specific day to contend with the Magi of Pharoah.

"'Your tryst shall be upon the Day of the Adornment (yawmu alzzeenati). Let the people be mustered at the high noon.'" Surah 2059

If it is in the Quran, which verifies the previous Books, we will find some indication of this in the previous Books.

Moses (pbuh) asked Pharaoh to take his people 3 days into the wilderness to give thanks to Allah, PRIOR to their leaving Egypt, before given their rites of devotion Hag Sukkot, Hag ha-Mazzot, and Hag Shabu'ot?

Hajj/Hag Ha-Sukkot Exo. 109, Exo. 51, Exo. 318, Exo. 134, Exo. 2314-17, Exo 3422-24, Deut 1613-16, Neh. 89-12, Neh. 21, Lev. 239-21, Est. 89

"And afterward Moses and Aaron went in, and told Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Let my people go, that they may hold a feast unto me in the wilderness." Exo. 51
"And Moses said, We will go with our young and with our old, with our sons and with our daughters, with our flocks and with our herds will we go; for we must hold a feast unto the LORD." Exo. 109

Allah is clear He gave each nation acts of devotion (shaAAa-iri) Surah 52, 2232, 2234, 2236, 2267
Yahudians follow their rites given by Allah through Moses and Aaron (pbut).

The Hebrews designated a festival by the word "ag" (the Arabic "ajj&quot, originally implying a choragic rhythmic procession around the shrine of an idol or an altar (see Wellhausen, "Skizzen und Vorarbeiten," 3106); but later, without specific reference to this usage, connoting a day or season of joy ("ag" and "simah" are correlatives; comp. Amos 710; Deut.1614). "Hag" denotes more specifically the three agricultural festivals (Ex. 2314), or the Festival of Unleavened Bread and Tabernacles (Lev. 236, Lev. 2334), or the latter only (Judges 2119; Eze. 1125; II Chron. 53; II Chr. 78-9).

?You shall keep the Feast of Unleavened Bread. As I commanded you, you shall eat unleavened bread for seven days at the appointed time in the month of Abib, for in it you came out of Egypt. None shall appear before me empty-handed.? Exo. 2315
??e-a hammaw ti?mr ?i?a ym?m t?al maw ka??er i??i lmw? e? h?? k?-w y? mimmiryim wl?-yr?? fnay r?qm? Exo 2315

?You shall keep the Feast of Harvest, of the first fruits of your labor, of what you sow in the field. You shall keep the Feast of Ingathering at the end of the year, when you gather in from the field the fruit of your labor.? Exo. 2316
?wa haqq?r bik?r? ma?ey ??er tizra? baeh wa h?sif b? ha??n? b?sp ?e-ma?ey min-haeh? Exo. 2316

?You shall observe the Feast of Weeks, the first fruits of wheat harvest, and the Feast of Ingathering at the year?s end.? Exo. 3422
?wa ?u? ta?eh l bik?r? q?r i?m wa h?s?f tq?fa ha??n?? Exo. 3422

Moses and Aaron were told to turn their homes (buyootakum) into a bearing (qiblatan) Surah 1087
Prior to their acts revealed unto them through Moses and Aaron (pbut), they performed a different act of devotion.

There is reference to the House of Allah in the Bible, even though the polytheists are adverse to admitting it..
Isaiah 11-18 speaks of the Yahudians, the destruction of their lands and homes, and their festivals while in exile.

"Your country is desolate, your cities are burned with fire your land, strangers devour it in your presence, and it is desolate, as overthrown by strangers.
And the daughter of Zion is left as a cottage in a vineyard, as a lodge in a garden of cucumbers, as a besieged city." Isa. 17

This was during the exile of the Yahudians after the first destruction of the Temple, and prior to the rebuilding by Cyrus the Persian.

?Certain men came from Shechem, from Shiloh, and from Samaria, eighty men with beards shaved and their clothes torn, having cut themselves, with offerings and incense in their hand, to bring them to the house of the Lord.? Jer. 415

"To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.
When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?
Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.
Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them." Isa. 111-14

With the Temple destroyed, where would the Bani Israel go for their ?solemn meeting?
What courts of Allah were ?trampled? in new moon feasts when the Temple was destroyed by the armies of Nebuchadnezzar?

Cyrus the Persian is named Messiah in Isaiah 451 ? liberator of the Yahud during their captivity in Babylon. He decreed the reconstruction of the Temple. His successor Darius I, known as Dhul-Qarnain in the Quran, is credited with creation of the wall of Derbent in the Caucasus Mountains and is written in the Bible to have completed construction of the Temple in Jerusalem.

Yet in the Bible we see the ?trampling of courts? discussed.
The Jewish Encyclopedia discusses circambulation
"Extension of Sukkot.
The seventh day of the festival is distinguished as the "great Hosha'na" (the Gospel accounts of Jesus' entry on Palm Sunday seem to have confused this with Pesa&#7717, or "the day of the palm-and willow-branches" (Suk. 42-45). Carrying in their hands branches at least eleven feet long, the celebrants make seven circuits around the desk, chanting "Hosha'na" (Ps. cxviii. 25), and then beat the floor with the branches. This custom, said to be of Mosaic origin, is undoubtedly an adaptation of a Babylonian rite (Yer. 'Ab. Zarah iv.)."

No where in the Quran is a ritual of Circambulation taught or discussed.
The Quran tells us we are to go about inside the House. How does one go about their business inside their own home?

This is a Kabbalist rite known as ?squaring the circle?. They circle the Kaaba 7 times to represent the 7 ?heavens? or celestial bodies that circle above the earth, and in honor of the alchemical or ?spiritual realms? Fire, Water, Earth, Air, Above, Below, and Within.
Carl Jung taught this was a ?symbol of the opus alchymicum because it breaks down the original chaotic unity into the four elements and then combines them again in a higher unity?; the Philosopher?s stone.
This symbolic ritual used in esoteric Mystery schools and alchemy is taught by the Kabbalist satans who infiltrated the religions of man, turning service to our Creator into an idolatrous rite of magic, sorcery.
This rite was practiced by 3 million Islamists in 2010 alone.

The Canted Square
The candidate circle the altar in a particular manner.
It is called circumambulation.
Circumambulation is the practice of ??making a circuit about a thing or in an area of reverence??
circumambulation involves the making of a circuit around, while keeping the right hand toward the altar.
?The rite is symbolic of the apparent daily course of the sun, derived from the ancient sun-worship.?
?During the circuits,
corners should be squared in accordance with the ancient tradition
the Entered Apprentice during initiation shall proceed to the northeast corner three times during the circumambulation,
the Fellowcraft during passing shall proceed there four times,
and the Master being raised shall proceed there five times.

Masjid Al-Qiblatain ? the Mosque of Two Qiblahs ? in Medina 9107-109 ? "And those who have taken a mosque in opposition and unbelief, and to divide the believers, and as a place of ambush for those who fought Allah and His Messenger aforetime -- they will swear 'We desired nothing but good'; and Allah testifies they are truly liars." Surah 9107

"Those to whom We have given the Book study it as it should be studied they are the ones that believe therein those who reject faith therein, the loss is their own." Surah 2121
Allah does not make mistakes, nor forgets Surah 482, 2052
Allah does not change His way (sunnati Allahi) Surah 1777, 3030, 3362, 4823, 673-4

My qiblah is Masjid Al-Haram, the Holy Mosque that surrounds the Kaaba.

Quiblah, Masjid Al-Haram, Kaaba, Masjid Al-Aqsa
Surah 2225-33,36,73 595,97, 2125,127,142-150, 396, 4827, 1437, 728,31,73, 91,17,19-22,28, 171,81, 3449, 1051, 287, 2191, 2196, 2217, 502, 834, 731, 907, 9107-108, 1707, 1821, 4825,27

Bring your proof Surah 2111, 657, 842, 1410, 2124, 2764, 2875, 5238

May your studies be blessed by Allah.

Peace.

[noshirk]

Allah does not make mistakes, nor forgets Surah 482, 2052
Allah does not change His way (sunnati Allahi) Surah 1777, 3030, 3362, 4823, 673-4

Salaam ragingaijin

When you quote such verses , i can only be agree with you.
The problem is not to know if that God has a good understanding of islam. The problem is to know if we have a good understanding.

There is absolutely no reason that i take your understanding as truth. It is, of course, the same for you and you have no reason to take my understanding as truth.
You are not my Rabb. I am not your Rabb (in arabic, Rabba means educate, make grows).

Al-Aqsa Mosque, the Farthest Mosque, is named in the Quran. Surah 171

This is an example of what i cannot accept.
Proof that Masjid Al-aqsa is the one in Jerusalem is not made for me. Mentionning verse 17-1 doesn't change anything for me.

Now, if you are ready to go further, we have to do an agreement
The best dictionnary for understanding Quran is Quran Himself. To understand a word, the true meaning of a word, let's see how God use it in other contexts.
Quran comes first. Before arabic dictionnaries, before translators, before traditionnal beliefs, before our Cultural "IDENTITIES", before Torah and before Gospel.

It is difficult to respond to all what you said (you claimed many things).
However i am pleased with some of what you have said (sorry for my english).
I appreciate for example the link you made between Hajj and sukkot. I agree that is probably the same thing, but it seems that we don't agree on dates and on what to do (read 19-26 and type this phonetic transcription of sukkot in a google traductor. ).

For example, you said "No where in the Quran is Hagar mentioned. ".
I agree.
However, Safa and marwa are related to Hagar history. If we reject Hagar, we can then reject traditional meaning of Safa and marwa.
Safa and marwa (2-15 are described as chaa'ir. But there is a big difference between you have to make Taouf with(or around) them and it is not forbidden to make taouf (with them).
On the other side, word chaa'ir is used in verses 5-2,22-32;22-36. Acoording to context where this word is used in other verses than 2-158, it seems that chaa'ir is related to animal lifestock.
safa has many meaning in arabic. It's root can mean clear, aligned or selected.
. .
.
.

if you don't read arabic, this extract from arab dictionnary (( &#1577) shows that word SAFA is applied to animal lifestock and camels.
Marwa is from root rawa wich means drink. Marwa can then be understood as a drink or as animals to wich we give water to drink.

By this method of analyse, from a starting point that is based on quranic verses, we can find a coherent interpretation of two words.
There is great difference between animals and sacred mountains.

2158 Indeed, the SAFA and the MARWA are chaa'ir of God. So whoever makes HAJJ to the BAYT, or is making OMRA, commits no error should he YATOUF BIHIMA. And whoever donates for goodness, then God is Thankful, knoweth

The last part of verse 2158, where safa and marwa appears seems to relates safa and marwa to acts of donation for goodness.
My conclusion is then SAFA and MARWA have nothing to do with mountains, neither sacred or not.

Quran is itself a miracle. Both words and meaning are sealed. When Chaytan comes and say "That word mean that thing", and the explanation of Chaytan succeds to enter in dictionnaries and geography, Quran make always possible to people attached to Quran to discover the truth.
22-52 Never did We send a messenger or a prophet before thee, but, when he framed a desire, Satan threw some (vanity) into his desire but Allah will cancel anything (vain) that Satan throws in, and Allah will confirm (and establish) His Signs for Allah is full of Knowledge and Wisdom

I will always be grateful to brother Ayman (http//www.free-minds.org/whats-name) to have shown me this methodology. But i disagree with brother ayman on many points simply because Brother Ayman, whose article are very interesting, is simply not my rabb.

Dear, raginggaijin

May your studies be blessed by Allah.

I hope to you the same thing.
Even when we read Quran, we have to avoid meanings put by Chaytan in our mind.
I had the same beliefs as you. But i Changed my understanding of many concepts.
Really, it was not easy and i am not even sure to be on the straight path.

There is many questions to wich i have no response.
For example, you quoted verse
28-27 He said "I intend to wed one of these my daughters to thee, on condition that thou serve me for eight HIJAJ; but if thou complete ten , it will be (grace) from thee. But I intend not to place thee under a difficulty thou wilt find me, indeed, if Allah wills, one of the righteous."

My problem is that according Torah, Moses was with Jethro during 40 years (he went at Firaoun at 83). Wich leads that One HIJAJ equals 4 years ? ??? ?.
I don't know what does that mean but i cannot forget that Torah came before Quran and 28-27 can not be a correction of torah but a definition of something related to Hajj.
On the other side, you mentionned the three jewish feast. In verse 2-197, God says that Ashor HARAM are known. What "known" means ? I came to conclusion, after many readings, that it means "see what remain from my other books". But where is the fourth festival if Hajj is sukkot ?
my intuition is that the fourth one is what this thead call winter ramadan. Not because of ramadan but because of feast of Mithra who became Christmas. It is logical to believe that jews forget the fourth Shahr haram when they forget the Messiah. It is what a detective would call "the motive of the crime". But i cannot proove it.

You see, dear raginggaijin, we believe in the same god, in the same book and we have so different understandings.

Peace

[raginggaijin]

Salaam ragingaijin

There is absolutely no reason that i take your understanding as truth. It is, of course, the same for you and you have no reason to take my understanding as truth.
You are not my Rabb. I am not your Rabb (in arabic, Rabba means educate, make grows).

If you have read my past discussions, you'll note I tell everyone not to take me as a guide. Allah is Guide, Patron of the believers. So do not take my opinion on anything. Confirm the Truth for yourself.

In the End, we all stand before Allah and are only accountable for ourselves.

This is an example of what i cannot accept.
Proof that Masjid Al-aqsa is the one in Jerusalem is not made for me. Mentionning verse 17-1 doesn't change anything for me.

That's fine by me. You choose what you want to believe.
I believe in evidence. The Quran is the Furqan - the Criterion - from which I hold everything under scrutiny. If I find it in the Quran, I expect to find it out in the world.
If man brings something from history and I find it in the Quran, then I believe it. If man brings something from history and I do not find it in the Quran, then I do not believe it.
If man brings something from science and I find it in the Quran, then I believe it. If man brings something from science and I do not find it in the Quran, then I suggest they keep searching.

379 Not is it for a mortal that The God gives him the Book, and the judgment, and the oration, then he says, ?Be servants of me from besides The God,? instead of ?Be scholars (rabbaniyyeena) because you are teaching the Book and because you are studying.?

Now, if you are ready to go further, we have to do an agreement
The best dictionnary for understanding Quran is Quran Himself. To understand a word, the true meaning of a word, let's see how God use it in other contexts.
Quran comes first. Before arabic dictionnaries, before translators, before traditionnal beliefs, before our Cultural "IDENTITIES", before Torah and before Gospel.

I agree; see my comments above.

I appreciate for example the link you made between Hajj and sukkot. I agree that is probably the same thing, but it seems that we don't agree on dates and on what to do (read 19-26 and type this phonetic transcription of sukkot in a google traductor. ).

The Quran was sent in Arabic, not Hebrew. Surah 122, 20113, 3928, 413, 4144, 427. 433
Striving to make the Quran fit the Bible is evidence against the person. Surah 548-50

For example, you said "No where in the Quran is Hagar mentioned. ".
I agree.
However, Safa and marwa are related to Hagar history. If we reject Hagar, we can then reject traditional meaning of Safa and marwa.

I agree. Which is why you need to go back and re-read what I posted.
Safa and Marwah are mountain ranges found between Midian and Mecca, mined for quartz and stone.

2158 Surely the stones (alssafa) and the gems (almarwata) are from compositions of The God, so whoever is pilgrim of the House or its inhabitant, then no blame on him that roams with (bi) them (hima). And who volunteers better, so surely The God is Grateful, Knowing.

What is better in volunteering than gemstones and precious stones?
Feeding the poor and needy.

Google 'mines midian quartz'.
Also look up the Arabic word (marwata).

Even if we go with the translation for (bihima) as 'in them', we know the mountain ranges between the lands of Midian and Mecca still exist today, and are still mined for the precious stones and quarries for stonework. People travel in the mountain ranges - on the roads in the valleys between them - even today.

They are compositions of Allah because He created them.

Safa and marwa (2-15 are described as chaa'ir. But there is a big difference between you have to make Taouf with(or around) them and it is not forbidden to make taouf (with them).
On the other side, word chaa'ir is used in verses 5-2,22-32;22-36. Acoording to context where this word is used in other verses than 2-158, it seems that chaa'ir is related to animal lifestock.
safa has many meaning in arabic. It's root can mean clear, aligned or selected.
. .
.
.

if you don't read arabic, this extract from arab dictionnary (( &#1577) shows that word SAFA is applied to animal lifestock and camels.
Marwa is from root rawa wich means drink. Marwa can then be understood as a drink or as animals to wich we give water to drink.

I read Arabic.
The word (marwata) means 'quartz'. There were mines in Midian and in Mecca. Look it up.

By this method of analyse, from a starting point that is based on quranic verses, we can find a coherent interpretation of two words.
There is great difference between animals and sacred mountains.

You you have shown that by upholding a Lexicon instead of the Quran you are led astray by mistranslation.
By striving to make the Quran fit the Bible, you are led into error.

2158 Indeed, the SAFA and the MARWA are chaa'ir of God. So whoever makes HAJJ to the BAYT, or is making OMRA, commits no error should he YATOUF BIHIMA. And whoever donates for goodness, then God is Thankful, knoweth

The last part of verse 2158, where safa and marwa appears seems to relates safa and marwa to acts of donation for goodness.
My conclusion is then SAFA and MARWA have nothing to do with mountains, neither sacred or not.

Yet you cannot show what 'chaa'ir' means, using language to conceal the Truth and twisting it to suit your desires.

"Some of the Jews pervert words from their meanings saying, 'We have heard and we disobey' and 'Hear, and be thou not given to hear' and 'Observe us,' twisting with their tongues and traducing religion. If they had said, 'We have heard and obey' and 'Hear' and 'Regard us,' it would have been better for them, and more upright; but God has cursed them for their unbelief so they believe not except a few." Surah 446

Quran is itself a miracle. Both words and meaning are sealed.

What? Where does Allah say this? The Quran is sealed only to those who disbelieve.

26 Surely, those who disbelieve, alike to them whether you warn them or you warn them not, they believe not.
27 Seal of The God, on their hearts and on their hearing, and on their sight an enveloping, and for them a great punishment.

By your own words you place yourself among the disbelievers.

When Chaytan comes and say "That word mean that thing", and the explanation of Chaytan succeds to enter in dictionnaries and geography, Quran make always possible to people attached to Quran to discover the truth.
22-52 Never did We send a messenger or a prophet before thee, but, when he framed a desire, Satan threw some (vanity) into his desire but Allah will cancel anything (vain) that Satan throws in, and Allah will confirm (and establish) His Signs for Allah is full of Knowledge and Wisdom

I will always be grateful to brother Ayman (http//www.free-minds.org/whats-name) to have shown me this methodology. But i disagree with brother ayman on many points simply because Brother Ayman, whose article are very interesting, is simply not my rabb.

Dear, raginggaijinI hope to you the same thing.
Even when we read Quran, we have to avoid meanings put by Chaytan in our mind.
I had the same beliefs as you. But i Changed my understanding of many concepts.
Really, it was not easy and i am not even sure to be on the straight path.

There is many questions to wich i have no response.
For example, you quoted verse
28-27 He said "I intend to wed one of these my daughters to thee, on condition that thou serve me for eight HIJAJ; but if thou complete ten , it will be (grace) from thee. But I intend not to place thee under a difficulty thou wilt find me, indeed, if Allah wills, one of the righteous."

My problem is that according Torah, Moses was with Jethro during 40 years (he went at Firaoun at 83). Wich leads that One HIJAJ equals 4 years ? ??? ?.

You prove you uphold the Bible over the Quran.
Where does Allah say Moses was with Jethro?
Allah does not.
So why do you uphold it?
The Quran is the Criterion - alfurqan - not the Bible.

I don't know what does that mean but i cannot forget that Torah came before Quran and 28-27 can not be a correction of torah but a definition of something related to Hajj.
On the other side, you mentionned the three jewish feast. In verse 2-197, God says that Ashor HARAM are known. What "known" means ? I came to conclusion, after many readings, that it means "see what remain from my other books". But where is the fourth festival if Hajj is sukkot ?
my intuition is that the fourth one is what this thead call winter ramadan. Not because of ramadan but because of feast of Mithra who became Christmas. It is logical to believe that jews forget the fourth Shahr haram when they forget the Messiah. It is what a detective would call "the motive of the crime". But i cannot proove it.

You see, dear raginggaijin, we believe in the same god, in the same book and we have so different understandings.

Peace

Yes, we do have very different understandings. And that's fine. I am not concerned with what others are following. I am only concerned about what I follow and how I do it.
I don't care what men think. I care what Allah knows. He is sufficient for me.

And though I do not believe as you believe, and I do not uphold the teachings of the Jews and Christians, I still bid you peace.

[Noon_waalqalami]

Thank you for confirming that I am correct in understanding they are different.

I agree; consistency is going to be throughout the Quran. It is error-free.

There are plural and singular usage of (sana)

Peace raginggaijin, we need to focus on exact meaning and check for consistency a few words at a time specifically these three highlighted which I've removed the dialectical markings and do a simple replace in below with definition and check for consistency within the context to see if it makes sense.

1 solar year = 365.242 days
1 lunar year = 354.367 days
1 season = ?

296 and you will find them most greedy the humankind on life and from the those who associating partners loves one of them if upkeep (preservation) thousand snh/age(s) and not it remove him from the punishment that upkeep (preservation) and The God Seer in what they doing

2255 The God not deity except He The Living The Sustain-er of all not takes Him snh/age and not sleep to Him what in the skies/heavens and what in the earth from (who) possessor the one who can intercede with Him except by His permission He knows what between their hands (in front) and what behind them and not they encompass in a thing from His knowledge except in what Willed Extends His Throne the heavens and the earth and not tires Him guarding them both and He The Exalted The Great

2259 or like the one who pass by on a town and it empty on its trellises said how He gives life this The God after her/its death so caused him to die The God hundred Aam/year(s) furthermore resurrected him said how many stayed you? said stayed day for or some/part day said rather stayed you hundred Aam/year(s) so see to your food and drink and your drink not yt-snh/aged time and look to your donkey and to make you sign to the humankind and look to the bones how raise her/it furthermore cover it meat of so when has become distinct to him said knows that The God over each a thing Supreme

526 said so indeed it prohibited on them forty snh/age(s) they wander in the earth so not grieve over the folk the disobedient

7130 and surely We took family Pharaoh b-al-snyn/with the years (i.e. scarcity) and lack from the fruits that they who remember

928 O you the those who believing surely the polytheists unclean so not come near al-masjid/the mosque the haraam/prohibited after Aamhm/year theirs this one and if you fear poverty so shortly makes you independent The God from His bounty if willed indeed The God Knowing Wise

937 surely the postponing increase in the disbelief He lets stray with it the those who disbelieve they make it lawful Aama/year for and they make it forbidden Aama/year for to adjust count what prohibited The God so making lawful what prohibited The God ornament/beautified for them horrible their deeds and The God not guides the folk the disbelievers

9126 and not they see that they be tested in each Aam/year once or twice furthermore not they repent and not they who remember

1242 and said to the one who think that he survivor from them two mention me near your lord so made forget him the devil remembrance Lord his so he stayed in the prison several snyn/years

1247 said you will plant seven snyn/years as usual so what you harvest so leave it in its ears except little from what you eat 1248 furthermore comes from after that seven severe eat/consume what you advanced for them except little from what you stored 1249 furthermore comes from after that Aam/year in it will be given succor/relief the humankind and in it they will press

1513 not they believe in it and truly passed snh/age the ancients

1712 and We made the night and the daylight two signs so We erased sign the night and We made sign the daylight visible that you may seek bounty from your Lord and that you may know number al-snyn/the years and the count and every a thing We have explained it detailed

1811 so We cast over their ears in the cave snyn/years number of 1812 furthermore We raised them that We make evident which the two parties calculated of what stayed duration of

1825 and they stayed in their cave three hundred snyn/years and increase nine for (conjecture answered in next verse) 1826 say The God knows in what they stayed to Him unseen the heavens and the earth He sees in it and Hears not for them from besides Him from Guardian and not associate in His Commands anyone

2040 when was going your sister so she said shall I show you on from nurse him so We returned you to your mother that to cool her eyes and not grieve and you killed a soul so We saved you from the distress and We tempted you a temptation so you remained snyn/years with/in people Madyan furthermore you came on as much O Moses

2247 and they ask you to hasten in the punishment and never fails The God His Promise and indeed ywma/day for near your Lord like thousand snh/age(s) from what you reckon

23112 said how many stayed you in the earth number snyn/years?

2618 said did not we raise you among us a child and you remained among us from your life snyn/years

26205 indeed so have you seen indeed We let them enjoy snyn/years

2914 and surely We sent Noah to his folk so he stayed amongst them thousand snh/age(s) except fifty Aama/year(s) for so seized them the flood and they unjust

304 in several snyn/years to God the directive from before and from after and that day rejoice the believers

3114 and We enjoined the human to his parents carried him his mother weakness on feeble and his separation in Aamyn/two year that be thankful to Me and to your parents to Me the destiny

325 He regulates the directive from the sky to the earth furthermore ascends to Him in day/era it is its measure thousand snh/age(s) from what you reckon

4615 and We enjoined the human to his parents goodness carried him his mother unwillingly and gave birth to him unwillingly and carried him and his separation thirty shra/cycle for until when reached peak and reaches forty snh/age(s) said Lord grant me that I be grateful Your grace the one blessed to me and on my parents and that to make/I do righteous of which please You and correct for me in my offspring I indeed perish to thee and indeed I from the peace makers

701 asked a questioner of punishment and real
702 to the disbelievers is not to it any preventer
703 from The God owner the stairways
704 ascend the angels and the spirit to Him in day/era it is its measure fifty thousand snh/age(s)
705 so be patient patience of beautiful
706 indeed they see it far of
707 and We see it near of

[raginggaijin]

Peace raginggaijin, we need to focus on exact meaning and check for consistency a few words at a time specifically these three highlighted which I've removed the dialectical markings and do a simple replace in below with definition and check for consistency within the context to see if it makes sense.

1 solar year = 365.242 days
1 lunar year = 354.367 days
1 season = ?

Interesting compilation and interesting study technique. I will look into it.

I don't agree with the decision for lunar years, much less the compilation of lunations into year units and not separating them. You showed the root words are similar even without using the vowel sounds. It sets up a strawman. It is further compounded when you use the same word - 'years' - for different units of time.

What can be determined by the moon and the sun? Seasons. You forget Surah 105.

You also missed Surah 1777 for a 'sunnah' retranslation.

You don't sow for an entire year. You only sow in season. Surah 1247
But it can rain throughout seasons. Surah 1248

Allah uses units of time to describe the units of time. Use the numbers to assist in your studies along with the words.

This is a topic I will be pondering and asking Allah to explain as I go throughout my daily. May Allah bless and reward both of our efforts.

Peace.

[Noon_waalqalami]

Interesting compilation and interesting study technique. I will look into it.

I don't agree with the decision for lunar years, much less the compilation of lunations into year units and not separating them. You showed the root words are similar even without using the vowel sounds. It sets up a strawman. It is further compounded when you use the same word - 'years' - for different units of time.

What can be determined by the moon and the sun? Seasons. You forget Surah 105.

You also missed Surah 1777 for a 'sunnah' retranslation.

I usually don't forget ) and left out 1015 since it was similar to 1712 and likewise 1777 to the other examples...

105 He The One made the sun shining and the moon a light and ordained for it phases that you may know number al-snyn/the seasons/years and the count not created The God that except in the truth expounds the verses/signs for folk who know

1777 snh/age from hence We sent before you from Our messengers and not you find to way Ours turning

You don't sow for an entire year. You only sow in season. Surah 1247
But it can rain throughout seasons. Surah 1248

Yes address was to Egyptians (Qur'an is a translation into Arabic what transpired). Therefore in context plausible for these verses...

1247 said you will plant seven snyn/(ancient Egyptian planting seasons) as usual so what you harvest so leave it in its ears except little from what you eat 1248 furthermore comes from after that seven severe eat/consume what you advanced for them except little from what you stored 1249 furthermore comes from after that Aam/(ancient Egyptian year) in it will be given succor/relief (i.e. flood returns) the humankind and in it they will press

Allah uses units of time to describe the units of time. Use the numbers to assist in your studies along with the words.

This is a topic I will be pondering and asking Allah to explain as I go throughout my daily. May Allah bless and reward both of our efforts.

Yes of course,

Peace

[raginggaijin]

I usually don't forget and left out 1015 since it was similar to 1712 and likewise 1777 to the other examples...

Suppression of evidence hinders your efforts; it appears to those who confirm using the Arabic revelation that you are striving to hide something. Strive to be thorough, showing everything and let it stand on its own merits.

Truth destroys falsehood.

105 He The One made the sun shining and the moon a light and ordained for it phases that you may know number al-snyn/the seasons/years and the count not created The God that except in the truth expounds the verses/signs for folk who know

1777 snh/age from hence We sent before you from Our messengers and not you find to way Ours turning

Yes address was to Egyptians (Qur'an is a translation into Arabic what transpired). Therefore in context plausible for these verses...

1247 said you will plant seven snyn/(ancient Egyptian planting seasons) as usual so what you harvest so leave it in its ears except little from what you eat 1248 furthermore comes from after that seven severe eat/consume what you advanced for them except little from what you stored 1249 furthermore comes from after that Aam/(ancient Egyptian year) in it will be given succor/relief (i.e. flood returns) the humankind and in it they will press

Thank you for sharing this. This agrees with my own interprtation of the passage.

As well there are issues with your translations.

Surah 2255 (&#1612 sinatun - ww sn nn ( &#1606
Surah 2259 (&#1618 yatasannah - sn nn h ( &#1607
Surah 1247 (&#1613 sanatin - sn nn ww ( &#1608
Surah 1513 (&#1615 sunnatu - sn nn nn ( &#1606

They are all different words...

Surah 2255 " snh/age"
Surah 2259 "yt-snh/aged time"
Surah 1247 " snyn/years"
Surah 1513 " snh/age"

...but you say they are the same.

I don't know why you did that, but in doing so you refuted your own basis of interpretation.

Also
Ages (huquban, huqb/hiqbah) Surah 1860, 7823
?Surely Ghenna lies in wait, for the insolent a resort, therein to tarry for ages (ahqaban)? Surah 7821-23

My point still stands.

Lunation (sanatin) Surah 296, 526, 2247, 2914, 325, 4615, 704
Lunation seasons (sinna) Surah 7130, 105, 1242, 1247, 1712, 1811, 1825, 23112, 2618, 26205, 304
Solar year (amin) Surah 2259, 928, 937, 9126, 1249, 2914, 3114

Peace.

[Noon_waalqalami]

Suppression of evidence hinders your efforts; it appears to those who confirm using the Arabic revelation that you are striving to hide something. Strive to be thorough, showing everything and let it stand on its own merits.

Truth destroys falsehood.

Thank you for sharing this. This agrees with my own interprtation of the passage.

As well there are issues with your translations.

Surah 2255 (&#1612 sinatun - ww sn nn ( &#1606
Surah 2259 (&#1618 yatasannah - sn nn h ( &#1607
Surah 1247 (&#1613 sanatin - sn nn ww ( &#1608
Surah 1513 (&#1615 sunnatu - sn nn nn ( &#1606

They are all different words...

Surah 2255 " snh/age"
Surah 2259 "yt-snh/aged time"
Surah 1247 " snyn/years"
Surah 1513 " snh/age"

...but you say they are the same.

I don't know why you did that, but in doing so you refuted your own basis of interpretation.

The issues seem you are hurried, sloppy, careless and need bigger font.

2255 http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=wsn#(225510)
snh -- where is waw?

2259 http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=snh#(225942)
Yes it's slightly different closest to English I've posted is "aged time."

1247 http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=snw#(12474)
snyn -- again where is waw?

Surah 1513 http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=snn#(15136)
snh -- where is the second nn?

Also
Ages (huquban, huqb/hiqbah) Surah 1860, 7823
?Surely Ghenna lies in wait, for the insolent a resort, therein to tarry for ages (ahqaban)? Surah 7821-23

Ha-Qaf-Ba = To be suppressed; rainless year, unproductive. Suffer suppression of urine, have difficulty in staling, suffer suppression of milk (she camel), to be delayed or withheld, to be perverted/marred/disordered/impeded, to gird a camel, bound a thing (anything) behind a camel's saddle, bear or take a burden upon oneself.
huqub n.m. (pl. ahqab) 1860, 7823

My point still stands.

Lunation (sanatin) Surah 296, 526, 2247, 2914, 325, 4615, 704
Lunation seasons (sinna) Surah 7130, 105, 1242, 1247, 1712, 1811, 1825, 23112, 2618, 26205, 304
Solar year (amin) Surah 2259, 928, 937, 9126, 1249, 2914, 3114

Simply plug in lunation or on average 29.530589 days in all verses to see its pointless makes no sense.

2255 The God not deity except He The Living The Sustainer of all not takes Him snh/lunation (i.e. 29.53 days according to you) and not sleep...

1513 not they believe in it and truly passed snh/lunation (i.e. 29.53 days according to you) the ancients

Peace

[raginggaijin]

The issues seem you are hurried, sloppy, careless and need bigger font.

Insulting only shows you are either upset or do not have a foundation to base your rhetoric upon. If you cannot bring evidence to support your efforts, then refrain from responding. You do yourself no favors by insulting a person you are in a discussion with.

Now let's look into what you've stated.

2255 http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=wsn#(225510)
snh -- where is waw?

I want to point out something for you since you using corpus.quran.com as a resource.

http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=wsn#

"The triliteral root ww sn nn ( &#1606 occurs only once in the Quran, as the noun sinat (&#1577. The translation below is a brief gloss intended as a guide to meaning. An Arabic word may have a range of meanings depending on context. Click on the word for more linguistic information, or to suggestion a correction."

This is taken from the very top of the link you posted.

I would suggest you contact them as well with your claims. I have no doubt they would love to hear how they are incorrect so they can update their database. If this is an error in translation, it is a huge mistake that needs to be rectified as even the Arabic transliterations say (sinatun) in Surah 2255. Among other instances.

Surah 2255 ( &#1612
ww sn nn ( &#1606
waw initial (&#1608 medial (&#1608 final (&#1608
sin initial (&#1600 medial(&#1600 final (&#1587
nun initial (&#1600 medial (&#1600 final (&#1606
(&#1606

Six letters ( &#1575 don't have a distinct medial form and have to be written with their final form without being connected to the next letter. Their initial form matches the isolated form.

You wrote, "where is waw?"
Look to the Arabic revelation, also found on corpus.quran.com
http//corpus.quran.com/wordmorphology.jsp?location=(225510)

It may be the translator believes the letter precedes the word, separate from it as per Arabic language rules. A comma in Arabic looks like a 6, not a 9 as the English comma, so the letter waw (&#1608 immediately follows the letter ha (&#1607.

This, however, raises my eyebrows
ha (&#1607
initial (&#1600 medial (&#1600 final (&#1607
The word (&#1612 in Surah 2255 appears similar to (&#1607.

But Arabic also has letters that are modified; different contextual variants of some of the Arabic letters.

Final (&#1577 for /a/, /at/.

I believe I understand where you are coming up with the (snh) equivilant, but the error occurs when the Arabic language rules are not upheld in favor of a mistranslation.

This is lain out for your inspection in a careful, thorough manner. I used a larger font too. )

2259 http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=snh#(225942)
Yes it's slightly different closest to English I've posted is "aged time."

You agree it is different. Thank you.

1247 http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=snw#(12474)
snyn -- again where is waw?

Surah 1513 http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=snn#(15136)
snh -- where is the second nn?

Also from corpus.quran.com

"The triliteral root sn nn nn ( &#1606 occurs 21 times in the Quran, in three derived forms

?twice as the noun sinn (&#1617
?16 times as the noun sunnat (&#1577"

It appears you are in disagreement with corpus.quran.com as well.
I am not joking when I tell you to contact them to double check possible discrepancies.

Ha-Qaf-Ba = To be suppressed; rainless year, unproductive. Suffer suppression of urine, have difficulty in staling, suffer suppression of milk (she camel), to be delayed or withheld, to be perverted/marred/disordered/impeded, to gird a camel, bound a thing (anything) behind a camel's saddle, bear or take a burden upon oneself.
huqub n.m. (pl. ahqab) 1860, 7823

Simply plug in lunation or on average 29.530589 days in all verses to see its pointless makes no sense.

You've taken Lexicons as your guide instead of the Quran's descriptions. If the term 'ages' is used to denote a length of time and it's not (sunnah) as you've described, then your interpretation is flawed. I cannot make you change your mind if you refuse to acknowledge you may be wrong in interpretation.

Take your interpretations and insert them into the ayats we both gave. Your Lexicons are not true to the Quran.

Ages (huquban, huqb/hiqbah) Surah 1860, 7823

"And when Moses said to his page, 'I will not give up until I reach the meeting of the two seas, though I go on for ages (huquban)." Surah 1860
?Surely Ghenna lies in wait, for the insolent a resort, therein to tarry for ages (ahqaban)? Surah 7821-23

2255 The God not deity except He The Living The Sustainer of all not takes Him snh/lunation (i.e. 29.53 days according to you) and not sleep...

1513 not they believe in it and truly passed snh/lunation (i.e. 29.53 days according to you) the ancients

I can't make you change your mind when you refuse to believe you may be wrong. You've taken a root word path towards interpretation that goes against Arabic language rules, ignoring the inflections of the character - not vowel sounds. A flawed interpretation when the Arabic revelation is examined (as shown above).

I do not have an Arabic revelation that consists of only root letters. Do you? Can you show me this Arabic revelation if you do possess it?

You have to understand that you have suppressed evidence and resorted to insults instead of letting evidence stand upon its own merit. As well, you've agreed with me on points of interpretation.
If it can be refuted, why should I believe it? If it agrees with what is shown by evidence, why can't it be upheld as Truth?

If I am wrong about the Arabic revelation in Surah 2255, please show me the error. I look forward to this evidence.

If you want to translate the Quran using only root letters, translate the entire Quran using only root letters. Let me see the end results of this endevour, please. Until then, you've instituted a system that allows you to pick-and-choose the translation that suits your desires and is not upheld nor taught in the Quran. I cannot agree with that system as we already see the issues that arise from it.

When we look to the Quran ayats you've brought forth and see the language rules upheld, does it uphold your translation?
No, it does not. Surah 2255 (sanatin) is 'slumber', not 'age', not 'seasons', not 'lunations'.

Spare the insults. Bring your proof. You'll get farther with me if you conduct yourself in such manner.

Peace.

[Noon_waalqalami]

Insulting only shows you are either upset or do not have a foundation to base your rhetoric upon. If you cannot bring evidence to support your efforts, then refrain from responding. You do yourself no favors by insulting a person you are in a discussion with.

It's you who started with accusations and insults when you stated I'm hiding information.

Also you write too much, all over the place put everything into a blender and lack focus one thing at a time...

Now let's look into what you've stated.

2255 http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=wsn#(225510)
snh -- where is waw?

I want to point out something for you since you using corpus.quran.com as a resource.

http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=wsn#

"The triliteral root ww sn nn ( &#1606 occurs only once in the Quran, as the noun sinat (&#1577. The translation below is a brief gloss intended as a guide to meaning. An Arabic word may have a range of meanings depending on context. Click on the word for more linguistic information, or to suggestion a correction."

This is taken from the very top of the link you posted.

I would suggest you contact them as well with your claims. I have no doubt they would love to hear how they are incorrect so they can update their database. If this is an error in translation, it is a huge mistake that needs to be rectified as even the Arabic transliterations say (sinatun) in Surah 2255. Among other instances.

Surah 2255 ( &#1612
ww sn nn ( &#1606
waw initial (&#1608 medial (&#1608 final (&#1608
sin initial (&#1600 medial(&#1600 final (&#1587
nun initial (&#1600 medial (&#1600 final (&#1606
(&#1606

Six letters ( &#1575 don't have a distinct medial form and have to be written with their final form without being connected to the next letter. Their initial form matches the isolated form.

Take any Qur'an remove dialectical marks put in place 150 years after Qu'ran -- show us waw in the word?

[raginggaijin]

It's you who started with accusations and insults when you stated I'm hiding information.

Your earlier posts prove you have kept out information. That's not an insult, that was a statement of fact. When you were called out for it, you gave excuse. Yet by not bringing all the ayats that contain variations of the word (&#1611 you have kept ayats out that give your interpretation trouble.

Sanatin (&#1611 Surah 296, 526, 2247, 2914, 325, 4615, 704
Sunnat (&#1577 Surah 1513, 1777, 1855, 3338, 3362, 4823
Sinatun (&#1612 Surah 2255

An example is in Surah 3362.

"Course (sunnata)(&#1614 of The God (l-lahi) with (f&#299 those who (alladhna) preceded (khalaw) from (min) before (qablu), and not (walan) you will find (tajida) to course (lisunnati) (&#1616 of The God (l-lahi) any change (tabdlan)." Surah 3362

Using your 'age' interpretation

"Age of The God with those who preceded from before, and not you will find to age of The God any change."

There will be no change to the age of The God with those who preceded before? Really? How is the age of our Creator in any way, shape or form, have something to do with how He chastises the hypocrites? Read Surah 33;60-61.

Also you write too much, all over the place put everything into a blender and lack focus one thing at a time...

Invalidation. It's right up there with Insult. Avoid it, focus on evidence.

Evidence is brought that shows the issues with your interpretation in a linear format that breaks it down. If you cannot understand it, that's your issue.

Take any Qur'an remove dialectical marks put in place 150 years after Qu'ran -- show us waw in the word?

This is the system you want to use to interpret the Quran. I understand that.

What is bolded in your post is the strawman you set up.
What is underlined in your post is the claim you made. Show me in the Quran where this is stated. Bring your proof of this claim - or am I to take your word for it? You have already suppressed evidence.

Show me in the Quran where this system is taught.
When you do not - because you cannot - why do you insist upon it? Especially when your interpretation falls apart when all of the ayats are brought forth?

Remember The Quran was written during the time of revelation.

Surah 2948, 964, 681, 8011-16
?No indeed; it is a Reminder, and whoso wills, shall remember it, upon pages (suhufin) high-honoured, exalted (MarfooAAatin), purified, by the hands of scribes noble, pious.? Surah 8011-16

You've made a claim. Now back it up with evidence from the Quran.
When you cannot then why do you expect anyone to follow you instead of following Allah? I believe in the Book, all of it, even the dialectics. It is all from Allah.

"Those to whom We have given the Book and who recite it with true recitation, they believe in it; and whoso disbelieves in it, they shall be the losers." Surah 2121

"It is He who sent down upon thee the Book, wherein are verses clear that are the Essence of the Book, and others ambiguous. As for those in whose hearts is swerving, they follow the ambiguous part, desiring dissension, and desiring its interpretation; and none knows its interpretation, save only God. And those firmly rooted in knowledge say, 'We believe in it; all is from our Lord'; yet none remembers, but men possessed of minds." Surah 37

Remember you were shown using corpus.quran.com a way to view the Arabic revelation. Here's a direct link

http//www.everyayah.com/data/images_png/2_255.png

http//www.everyayah.com/data/images_png/2_255.png

See that?

http//img.photobucket.com/albums/v88/raginggaijin/2255.jpg

I get it. With the dialectics, your theory doesn't work. But is that a system Allah teaches?

I've posted the link to the Arabic revelation and provided directions on finding the letters within it. If you do not like it and refuse to accept it, there is nothing I can do. You made your choice.

Lunation - a period of time - (sanatin) (&#1611 Surah 296, 526, 2247, 2914, 325, 4615, 704
Course - a mode of action during a period of time - (sunnat) (&#1577 Surah 1513, 1777, 1855, 3338, 3362, 4823
Slumber - a period of rest - (sinatun) (&#1612 Surah 2255

All deal with periods of time.

Truth stands clear from falsehood.

Peace.

[Noon_waalqalami]

Your earlier posts prove you have kept out information. That's not an insult, that was a statement of fact. When you were called out for it, you gave excuse. Yet by not bringing all the ayats that contain variations of the word (&#1611 you have kept ayats out that give your interpretation trouble.

Sanatin (&#1611 Surah 296, 526, 2247, 2914, 325, 4615, 704
Sunnat (&#1577 Surah 1513, 1777, 1855, 3338, 3362, 4823
Sinatun (&#1612 Surah 2255

An example is in Surah 3362.

"Course (sunnata)(&#1614 of The God (l-lahi) with (f&#299 those who (alladhna) preceded (khalaw) from (min) before (qablu), and not (walan) you will find (tajida) to course (lisunnati) (&#1616 of The God (l-lahi) any change (tabdlan)." Surah 3362

Using your 'age' interpretation

"Age of The God with those who preceded from before, and not you will find to age of The God any change."

There will be no change to the age of The God with those who preceded before? Really? How is the age of our Creator in any way, shape or form, have something to do with how He chastises the hypocrites? Read Surah 33;60-61.

How would lunation / 29.530589 days make sense and why would His age change?
Likewise, show lunation in any Arabic dictionaries or anything close to its meaning?

OK again you really need to focus one word/verse at a time...

Remember you were shown using corpus.quran.com a way to view the Arabic revelation. Here's a direct link

http//www.everyayah.com/data/images_png/2_255.png

http//www.everyayah.com/data/images_png/2_255.png

See that?

http//img.photobucket.com/albums/v88/raginggaijin/2255.jpg

Where did you get the above?

What 3 letters exactly are in the word highlighted "red" and please translate with the word prior?

[raginggaijin]

How would lunation / 29.530589 days make sense and why would His age change?

I am not the one saying the word is lunation. I translate it in as 'course'. You were even shown this in the reply.

Course - a mode of action during a period of time - (sunnat) (&#1577 Surah 1513, 1777, 1855, 3338, 3362, 4823

Likewise, show lunation in any Arabic dictionaries or anything close to its meaning?

I don't go by Arabic dictionaries. The Quran contains an explanation and description for everything. Do you disagree?

"In their stories is surely a lesson to men possessed of minds; it is not a tale forged, but a confirmation of what is before it, and a distinguishing of every thing, and a guidance, and a mercy to a people who believe." Surah 12111

"And the day We shall raise up from every nation a witness against them from amongst them, and We shall bring thee as a witness against those. And We have sent down on thee the Book making clear everything, and as a guidance and a mercy, and as good tidings to those who surrender." Surah 1689

"We have appointed the night and the day as two signs; then We have blotted out the sign of the night, and made the sign of the day to see, and that you may seek bounty from your Lord, and that you may know the number of the years, and the reckoning; and everything We have distinguished very distinctly." Surah 1712

"Now We have sent down to you signs making all clear, and an example of those who passed away before you, and an admonition for the godfearing." Surah 2434

What hadith will you believe in after Allah and His revelation?

You are given images from the Arabic revelations. You see exactly what is shown, but refuse to acknowledge it.

The waw (&#1608 is right between the words, but you omit it. It doesn't matter if it's small, it's there.

Suppression of evidence once again.

Peace.

[Noon_waalqalami]

I am not the one saying the word is lunation. I translate it in as 'course'. You were even shown this in the reply.

Course - a mode of action during a period of time - (sunnat) (&#1577 Surah 1513, 1777, 1855, 3338, 3362, 4823

I see now like during a period of time or age its?

I don't go by Arabic dictionaries. The Quran contains an explanation and description for everything. Do you disagree?

No, I agree it?s obvious that you don?t go by Arabic dictionaries.
No, I agree that the Qur?an ?in Arabic? contains an explanation.

121 Alif Lam Ra these verses the book the clear
122 indeed We We sent it Qur?an Arabic that may use reason

You are given images from the Arabic revelations. You see exactly what is shown, but refuse to acknowledge it.

The waw (&#1608 is right between the words, but you omit it. It doesn't matter if it's small, it's there.

Suppression of evidence once again.

No, it cannot be between the words else it would be an initial; so to which word exactly does it belong?

http//www.everyayah.com/data/images_png/2_255.png
http//oi46.tinypic.com/mstbm.jpg

Again please translate in context the word highlighted in red?

2255 ? not seizes Him (snh) and not sleep?
11102 ? indeed seize its painful severe

Now tell us which word does this tiny dialectical mark ?waw? belongs to ? seize its or painful?

http//www.everyayah.com/data/images_png/11_102.png
http//oi46.tinypic.com/23r5lyt.jpg

Peace

[raginggaijin]

I see now like during a period of time or age its?

And why not? If the words are similar but different in dialectic, then the basal meaning will reflect that root word. Do you disagree?

As for 'age' the term is used to denote how long something has existed, an era of history. This is an era, an epoch. In this we disagree on the meaning.

The word root denotes a period of time - an amount. What that amount of time is will be known by the dialectics.
Is it a period of being tired? We are not fatigued for an epoch.
Using the corpus.quran translation of 'slumber' for a period of sleep. We do not slumber for an era.
Is it a season? Seasons are annual, not spanning an era.
It is a course of events? These span numerous eras as Allah is Living, Undying. Allah does not change, nor does He change His course (sunnati Allahi) Surah 6124, 6115, 1064, 1777, 1827, 3030, 3362, 4815, 4823, 673-4

No, I agree it?s obvious that you don?t go by Arabic dictionaries.
No, I agree that the Qur?an ?in Arabic? contains an explanation.

Then why do you go to other books and Lexicons to find meanings for the Quran?

121 Alif Lam Ra these verses the book the clear
122 indeed We We sent it Qur?an Arabic that may use reason

There are 28 letters in the arabic language. Are you saying the other 14 not used as Quran initials are suspect? What exactly are you striving to say here?

No, it cannot be between the words else it would be an initial; so to which word exactly does it belong?

You ignore the Arabic language rules, stated earlier for you.

Six letters ( &#1575 don't have a distinct medial form and have to be written with their final form without being connected to the next letter. Their initial form matches the isolated form.

As well, that's a question I will have to put to corpus.quran.com, as our discussion has led me to the Arabic revelation - I own the printed Arabic Quran - but the corpus.quran.com website has the word attached to the previous word, while their own discussion adds it to the following word.

http//corpus.quran.com/wordimage?id=5182

http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=wsn#%28225510%29

From their link "The triliteral root ww sn nn ( &#1606 occurs only once in the Quran, as the noun sinat (&#1577."

Now, you've brought the corpus.quran.com as a resource for your argument, yet you reject it when it suits your desires. Why is that?

http//www.everyayah.com/data/images_png/2_255.png

Again please translate in context the word highlighted in red?

2255 ? not seizes Him (snh) and not sleep?
11102 ? indeed seize its painful severe

The word is 'fatigue' (&#1612 (sinatun); you remove the dialectics but that does not mean they are not in the Arabic Quran. Allah even describes later in the same ayat how sustaining the heavens and the earth does not tire Him at all. This is from my own translation I am working on

"The God, no God except Him, the Living, the Sustainer. Not overtakes Him a fatigue nor sleep. For Him is what is in the heavens and what is in the earth. Who is one of the ones who intercedes with Him except by His permission? He knows what is between their hands and what succeeds them. And they encompass not anything of His knowledge except what He wills. His Throne encompasses the heavens and the earth, and guarding those tires Him not. And He is the High, the Great." Surah 2255

Are you saying that is not true?

Are you claiming that the Quran has been changed or altered by these dialectics? By upholding this strawman theory, you back yourself into a corner you profess the Quran has been changed and is not protected. If the dialectic marks are not from Allah, then how are they in the Arabic revelation?

If that is your belief, I do not believe as you do. Allah protects the Quran. Falsehood does not enter it, in the past or in the future. Surah 159, 4141-42, 1339, 4224, 8521-22, 1827, 7227, 181

"Those who disbelieve in the Remembrance when it comes to them -- and surely it is a Book Sublime; falsehood comes not to it from before it nor from behind it; a sending down from One All-wise, All-laudable." Surah 4141-42

I'll post the reply from corpus.quran.com if and when they reply to this issue.

Peace. )

[Noon_waalqalami]

Then why do you go to other books and Lexicons to find meanings for the Quran?

Qur'an is in Arabic! Therefore.

There are 28 letters in the arabic language. Are you saying the other 14 not used as Quran initials are suspect? What exactly are you striving to say here?

Point was to show the "waw" you posted belongs to word prior not to

As well, that's a question I will have to put to corpus.quran.com, as our discussion has led me to the Arabic revelation - I own the printed Arabic Quran - but the corpus.quran.com website has the word attached to the previous word, while their own discussion adds it to the following word.

http//corpus.quran.com/wordimage?id=5182

http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=wsn#%28225510%29

The "waw" belongs to end of the prior word. No word in Qu'ran what you posted..

You still insist should be written as ?

This was clearly shown and you're still not convinced?

http//www.everyayah.com/data/images_png/2_255.png
http//oi46.tinypic.com/mstbm.jpg

2255 ? not seizes Him (snh) and not sleep?

Peace

[raginggaijin]

Qur'an is in Arabic! Therefore.

Therefore why do you seek Lexicons to give you descriptions to words that the Quran contains descriptions for? Especially when you bring a Lexicon that speaks of camel urine and has no bearing on the word in question?

"Therefore" is not a valid reason. In what hadith will you believe in after Allah and His revelation?

Point was to show the "waw" you posted belongs to word prior not to

Then why is the "waw" not part of the previous word - even in transliteration?

Here's a link to corpus.quran.com that details the word prior

http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=Ax*#%2822559%29

From the link

The triliteral root hamza kh dhl ( &#1584 occurs 273 times in the Quran, in seven derived forms

127 times as the form I verb akhadha (&#1614
nine times as the form III verb yukhidhu (&#1615
124 times as the form VIII verb ittakhadha (&#1614
six times as the verbal noun akhdh (&#1584
three times as the active participle khidh (&#1584
once as the form VIII verbal noun ittikhdh (&#1584
three times as the form VIII active participle muttakhidh (&#1584

Was a mistake made on corpus.quran.com? I do not know.
All I know is what the Arabic revelation upholds, and it matches the trilateral root ww sn nn ( &#1606, especially when the Arabic language rules confirm the stand-alone script of waw (&#1608.

The "waw" belongs to end of the prior word. No word in Qu'ran what you posted..

That statement falls apart when the previous word ( ) is brought to bear, as shown above. Yet as proven by the Arabic language rules, waw (&#1608 fits in with the following word (&#1577.

You still insist should be written as ?

This was clearly shown and you're still not convinced?

Here is what is clearly shown

1. (&#1612 does not mean 'age'. The word alone - ignoring your conflict with me concerning where waw (&#1608 is located - the word does not mean 'age'
2. Dialectics are part of the Arabic revelation.
3. waw (&#1608 is in Surah 2255 and in between the two words ( )and (&#1577.
4. The triliteral root ww sn nn ( &#1606 occurs only once in the Quran, as the noun sinat (&#1577 in Surah 2255 according to corpus.quran.com. This waw (&#1608 is associated with (&#1612 but not associated with ( ) according to corpus.quran.com. This fits Arabic language rules.
5. The Quran is complete and fully detailed, with an explanation for everything.
6. The Quran is untampered; pure and error-free.

What is also clearly shown

1. You have suppressed evidence.
2. Your translation theory of using only trilateral roots is proven invalid and not supported by the teachings within the Quran.
3. You rely on outside sources for explanation of the Quran.

With all these reasons why you are incorrect, why would I be convinced of anything you say?

This exercise has been useful in refuting your translation theory and to show your deceitful actions in suppressing evidence that conflicts with your translation theory.
Your theory is proven wrong, multiple times. Based on Arabic language rules the words work out. It is only when you bring your fallible theory into play that there arose issues.

You are more than welcome to believe whatever you desire. As for me, your points have been thoroughly refuted. You are unable to refute what is shown. Your counting system is flawed, your numbers are incorrect, and your translation is errant.

You have an issue with corpus.quran.com. Take that up with them, I am not their spokesperson.
Unless you have something new to bring, this conversation is over.
Your points are refuted. Move along.

Peace. )

[Noon_waalqalami]

Therefore why do you seek Lexicons to give you descriptions to words that the Quran contains descriptions for? Especially when you bring a Lexicon that speaks of camel urine and has no bearing on the word in question?

"Therefore" is not a valid reason. In what hadith will you believe in after Allah and His revelation?

I question now your logic -- the Qur'an is in Arabic not in Albanian or Zulu or whatever language.
Therefore, a person needs to understand Arabic language to understand Qur'an -- this is simple.

Then why is the "waw" not part of the previous word - even in transliteration?
Here's a link to corpus.quran.com that details the word prior

Now I'm questioning your vision. It is clear "it is" present in the word prior...

http//corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=2&verse=255

overtakes/seizes Him
http//corpus.quran.com/wordimage?id=5182

Likewise as already stated I've stripped all markings and use cross reference and context each word along with study of Arabic Lexicons and language since those markings were added much later to promote a certain interpretation.

That statement falls apart when the previous word ( ) is brought to bear, as shown above. Yet as proven by the Arabic language rules, waw (&#1608 fits in with the following word (&#1577.

What you wrote is nonsense -- "and snh/sunnah" word does not exist in Qur'an!

Here is what is clearly shown

1. (&#1612 does not mean 'age'. The word alone - ignoring your conflict with me concerning where waw (&#1608 is located - the word does not mean 'age'

2255 The God not deity except He The Living The Sustainer of all not seizes Him snh/age His and not sleep ....

The above fits perfectly within context and again there is no "waw" in the word nor does it start with waw/and which would sound senseless in Arabic or any language; "not seizes Him and snh and not sleep"...

Here is an example from recent events...
28 ""
Said Pope Benedict XVI's announcement Monday that he will resign as of Feb. 28, he no longer has the "power" required to stay on top of the church because of his age.

2. Dialectics are part of the Arabic revelation.
3. waw (&#1608 is in Surah 2255 and in between the two words ( )and (&#1577.
4. The triliteral root ww sn nn ( &#1606 occurs only once in the Quran, as the noun sinat (&#1577 in Surah 2255 according to corpus.quran.com. This waw (&#1608 is associated with (&#1612 but not associated with ( ) according to corpus.quran.com. This fits Arabic language rules.
5. The Quran is complete and fully detailed, with an explanation for everything.
6. The Quran is untampered; pure and error-free.

It is clear dialectic marks were not in oldest texts of Qur'an and shown that waw was inserted in the word prior not what you state nor would it make any sense -- see reply in other thread...

Peace Alleycats,

Yes Kufi, dialectical markings to preserve a particular pronunciation in writing and verse numbers, etc., were introduced much later. The first 150 years early copies of Qur'an were without vowel marks and dots to distinguish between different letters which look the same when written and one needs to use context and careful cross-reference examination to distinguish correct meaning, e.g.

the male/reminder (use context)
411 directs you The God in your children lildhakari/to the male like share the two (feminine)
159 indeed, We We have descended alththikra/the reminder and indeed for it surely Guardians

http//www.unesco-ci.org/photos/showphoto.php/photo/3355/title/highlights3a-letter-po/cat/837
End of chapter 9129 and start chapter 101 to verses 103 and part of 104
Script Kufi Masahif
Copying date 2nd Century
http//www.unesco-ci.org/photos/data/837/10big.jpg

The only dots are red/green hamza markings as shown below?
Qur'an 1st/2nd centuries Chapter 60 part 4 to 8 and part of 9

http//oi50.tinypic.com/20hldo0.jpg

What is also clearly shown

1. You have suppressed evidence.
2. Your translation theory of using only trilateral roots is proven invalid and not supported by the teachings within the Quran.
3. You rely on outside sources for explanation of the Quran.

With all these reasons why you are incorrect, why would I be convinced of anything you say?

This exercise has been useful in refuting your translation theory and to show your deceitful actions in suppressing evidence that conflicts with your translation theory.
Your theory is proven wrong, multiple times. Based on Arabic language rules the words work out. It is only when you bring your fallible theory into play that there arose issues.

You are more than welcome to believe whatever you desire. As for me, your points have been thoroughly refuted. You are unable to refute what is shown. Your counting system is flawed, your numbers are incorrect, and your translation is errant.

You have an issue with corpus.quran.com. Take that up with them, I am not their spokesperson.
Unless you have something new to bring, this conversation is over.
Your points are refuted. Move along.

The only thing clear is --- well I'll be nice and refrain. Therefore goodbye and peace to you.

[raginggaijin]

I question now your logic -- the Qur'an is in Arabic not in Albanian or Zulu or whatever language.
Therefore, a person needs to understand Arabic language to understand Qur'an -- this is simple.

You can understand Arabic without relying on Lexicons for translations. If the description given in the Quran is different than what is found in the hadith of Lexicons, reject the Lexicon and uphold the description in the Quran.

Now I'm questioning your vision. It is clear "it is" present in the word prior...

http//corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=2&verse=255

overtakes/seizes Him
http//corpus.quran.com/wordimage?id=5182

Feel free to question. It bothers me not. I let your words bear witness for you

So you use corpus.quran.com when it suits your purpose, but reject it when it doesn't. )

Again, take this up with corpus.quran.com. I am not their spokesperson.

As stated earlier, ignoring the controversy with corpus.quran.com the word (&#1612 does not mean 'age'.

Likewise as already stated I've stripped all markings and use cross reference and context each word along with study of Arabic Lexicons and language since those markings were added much later to promote a certain interpretation.

You've made this allegation again, yet you do not bring proof from the Quran of this statement. So why do you say about Allah that which you do not know nor can you prove.
Where in the Quran does it say it was only revealed in syllables? It does not.

Does the Quran state all of it comes from Allah? Yes, it does.

What you wrote is nonsense -- "and snh/sunnah" word does not exist in Qur'an!

2255 The God not deity except He The Living The Sustainer of all not seizes Him snh/age His and not sleep ....

The above fits perfectly within context and again there is no "waw" in the word nor does it start with waw/and which would sound senseless in Arabic or any language; "not seizes Him and snh and not sleep"...

You are welcome to believe as you desire. It matters not to me. Your interpretation theory is refuted and is not in accord with the Quran. In the End, Allah will judge between us in that which we differ. But I will restate I believe in the Quran, all of it. It is all from Allah.

Here is an example from recent events...
28 ""
Said Pope Benedict XVI's announcement Monday that he will resign as of Feb. 28, he no longer has the "power" required to stay on top of the church because of his age.

It is clear dialectic marks were not in oldest texts of Qur'an and shown that waw was inserted in the word prior not what you state nor would it make any sense -- see reply in other thread...

You post (&#1607. Google Translate translates this as 'age'.
The word in the Quran is (&#1612. It is not the word (&#1607 which you bring forth and translate as 'age'. Even in Google Translate, the word (&#1612 found in the Quran does not mean 'age'.

Point of this? You attempt deception yet again, saying one word from a newsletter - which you do not link or bring as evidence - is the same as found in the Quran, yet even the modern translators expose the issues you uphold.

When the Lexicons and translations do not uphold the descriptions in the Quran, you are to uphold what the Quran reveals, not what the Lexicons and newsrooms teach. The Quran is the furqan - the criterion - not the Lexicons and translation services.

Once more
I believe in the Book, all of it, even the dialectics. It is all from Allah.

"Those to whom We have given the Book and who recite it with true recitation, they believe in it; and whoso disbelieves in it, they shall be the losers." Surah 2121

"It is He who sent down upon thee the Book, wherein are verses clear that are the Essence of the Book, and others ambiguous. As for those in whose hearts is swerving, they follow the ambiguous part, desiring dissension, and desiring its interpretation; and none knows its interpretation, save only God. And those firmly rooted in knowledge say, 'We believe in it; all is from our Lord'; yet none remembers, but men possessed of minds." Surah 37

I understand you are saying it is not all from Allah. I do not agree with you.

Allah promises to protect the Quran. By your statement of saying the dialectics were not part of the Quran, you are saying the Quran has been corrupted - tampered with - which contradicts what Allah promised.
I will restate I do not believe as you do. Allah protects the Quran. Falsehood does not enter it, in the past or in the future. Surah 159, 4141-42, 1339, 4224, 8521-22, 1827, 7227, 181
I believe in it. It is all from Allah.

You bring hadith from other people with images that cannot be proven, and you expect me to believe you? Why would I believe you? Your words and suppression of evidence is manifest evidence against you.
You believe the Quran has been tampered with.
You believe not everything in the Quran is from Allah.
You believe in sayings - hadith - of men outside of the Quran.

I do not believe as you believe.

The only thing clear is --- well I'll be nice and refrain. Therefore goodbye and peace to you.

May Allah curse the liars and increase the defilers in nothing but destruction.

Peace.