How sex before Marriage is not haram (prohibited) according to the Quran
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Hi t-hamzei
Regarding sex I think the important questions are
- When is it right to have sex 2) How much sex is the right amount 3) What sort of things should or shouldn't be done when having sex
As far as I know, no one here thinks of sex as wrong. Difference in opinion is on when it's right to have sex. For example some at one end of the spectrum might say that sex should only be done after marriage and only when one wants kids. At the other end of the spectrum some might say that sex should happen whenever one gets the opportunity.
Regarding 1, I think that it's when two people have sufficiently gotten to know each other and are both comfortable and happy about having sex. This is regardless of whether they have gotten married or not.
Regarding 2, I think once a week (for various reasons)
Regarding 3, I think that fantasies and fetishes that involve domination or degradation or other like things should be kept away because their addictive and I also think that they are detrimental to sex's potential in providing feelings of love and affection regarding the two individuals involved.
Its part of our nature to have sex just as its part of our nature to eat food (although we die without food but not without sex). Both can either be beneficial or detrimental. Godwilling you'l figure out the rights and wrongs on this issue.
I am sorry brother but I have to challenge you here.....What you are saying has absolutely no Quranic reference at all. Or maybe your comments are not based on the Quran? Please respond, because if you derive your conclusions from Islam then I will be like ??? ??? ???
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Regarding 1, I think that it's when two people have sufficiently gotten to know each other and are both comfortable and happy about having sex. This is regardless of whether they have gotten married or not.
Well, the chance is that "sufficiently" would be defined according to the physical desire that the involved persons experience at the given time. And that level can be reached very quickly. The hormones would define "sufficiently", leaving the rest of the brain on hold, and the risk is you'd end up regretting what has transpired, due to action without wisdom. Unfortunately, there is no undo-button in real life. Thinking with your d*** is not always the wisest thing, believe it or not.
Secondly, I wonder why people cannot feel the emotional connection that is created when you have sex with someone. The more people you "mix with", the more broken, emotional connections you'd have. Not good.
Thirdly, I wonder why people are so afraid of getting married. Ok, young and inexperienced (immature) people would many times consider marriage as something too heavy for them... but why do they not hesitate to have sex with someone that they openly are having doubts about. I mean, if you're not interested in marriage, that means you sincerely are considering that you may break off from that relationship sooner or later. It seems many people would like to both eat and keep the cookie. Sex, but freedom to change partner. This is, in my opinion, emotionally odd.
Regarding 2, I think once a week (for various reasons)
This would naturally vary tremendously from person to person and from time to time depending on a variety of reason such as e.g. mood, health, preoccupation with other things, physical activities, environment etc.
Regarding 3, I think that fantasies and fetishes that involve domination or degradation or other like things should be kept away because their addictive and I also think that they are detrimental to sex's potential in providing feelings of love and affection regarding the two individuals involved.
This depends totally on how the involved people look at sex. You could have different types of sex at different times (in different moods). Regarding love and affection, well, it depends totally on the maturity of the people. Also, regarding fantasies, fetishes and such things, it is not so different from non-sexual situations. One should think and act in a positive and constructive manner, whether it is about sex or not. Detrimental things should be avoided no matter what we are talking about.
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I am sorry brother but I have to challenge you here.....What you are saying has absolutely no Qur reference at all. Or maybe your comments are not based on the Quran? Please respond, because if you derive your conclusions from Islam then I will be like
Challenge accepted (just kidding)
The gist of the replies towards T-hamzei weren't primarily in relation to what the Quran says. From what I read they looked more like personal opinions on sex. So I gave my personal opinions on the rights and wrongs of sex. My opinion takes into account my interpretation of Quran's guidelines on sex.
Points 1, 2 and 3 in my previous post are personal opinions on how to get the best out of sex and how not to transgress.
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Well, the chance is that "sufficiently" would be defined according to the physical desire that the involved persons experience at the given time. And that level can be reached very quickly.
Depends on the individual. One person might think I really want this and refuse to take into account other potentially important considerations. Another individual might be more cautious and think something like although I really want this, it's too soon because I don't trust this person enough yet
If it becomes the case that sufficiently is primarily defined by physical desire but other important factors such as (is this person trustworthy, am I emotionally ready for this, have I/they got sufficient protection, etc.) then there is nothing wrong with following this physical desire IMO.
The hormones would define "sufficiently", leaving the rest of the brain on hold, and the risk is you'd end up regretting what has transpired, due to action without wisdom. Unfortunately, there is no undo-button in real life. Thinking with your d*** is not always the wisest thing, believe it or not.
The individual who's desire outweighs his/her rationality will inevitably suffer consequences if he/she forgoes reason for the sake of desire. This can happen in or out of marriage.
For example a married couple who aren't ready for a child both financially and mentally would be acting recklessly if they engaged in unprotected sex with each other.
Secondly, I wonder why people cannot feel the emotional connection that is created when you have sex with someone. The more people you "mix with", the more broken, emotional connections you'd have. Not good.
Some do, some don't. One of my friends who got married (this was sort of a forced marriage) lost her virginity to the guy she married and she said she hated it and felt humiliated. There was no connection there at all and this was her first time. I think that its all down to who sleeps with who and for what purpose they sleep with each other.
Because of this I really don't think that a person who has had many different partners would become so numb as to fail to love again or to engage in sex in an affectionate manner. It depends on what the person wants from sex and from the person they intend to have sex with.Thirdly, I wonder why people are so afraid of getting married. Ok, young and inexperienced (immature) people would many times consider marriage as something too heavy for them... but why do they not hesitate to have sex with someone that they openly are having doubts about.
Deciding to marry someone is a much bigger decision than having sex with someone. The level of trust needed for marrying someone (commit to them for the rest of your life, split everything with them financially and so on) should be higher than sex. There are more factors to consider when deciding on marrying someone than when deciding on sleeping with someone.
It seems many people would like to both eat and keep the cookie. Sex, but freedom to change partner. This is, in my opinion, emotionally odd.
I don't think that the price of sex should be marriage. Even in a marriage (perhaps one of the most serious commitments anyone can make) you are still free to change partners so long as you first divorce.
Outside of marriage, the person who would quickly dump someone and move onto another person without consideration for the person they've dumped is acting selfishly. As does the person who marries for money then divorces immediately for the wrong reasons.
This would naturally vary tremendously from person to person and from time to time depending on a variety of reason such as e.g. mood, health, preoccupation with other things, physical activities, environment etc.
I agree.
One should think and act in a positive and constructive manner, whether it is about sex or not. Detrimental things should be avoided no matter what we are talking about.
I think so too.
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Challenge accepted (just kidding)
The gist of the replies towards T-hamzei weren't primarily in relation to what the Quran says. From what I read they looked more like personal opinions on sex. So I gave my personal opinions on the rights and wrongs of sex. My opinion takes into account my interpretation of Quran's guidelines on sex.
Points 1, 2 and 3 in my previous post are personal opinions on how to get the best out of sex and how not to transgress.
Ok brother, phew......got worried there for a while..... handshake............
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Ok brother, phew......got worried there for a while..... handshake............
nothing to worry about brother handshake
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...took me a while to reply, but yeah looking at all the responses I guess it does take some common sense this day in age. Unfortunately in Australia, the culture has taken a turn against marriage and religious practices whether they be through Islam or christianity, towards a more matriarchal society, especially with a female prime minister. If anyone is interested please read on...
The difference between matriarchal and more patriarchal societies where God is worshiped is female dominance instead of male dominance in the latter. The reason it's interesting is that you can draw parallels in human behaviour to that of other animals. In female dominant societies or even smaller social groups, females tend to be selective based on sex or also known as sexual selection. The problem is the females abuse their power and do not perceive the world in the same way as men due to their primal instincts that were conducive of their survival, such as maternal instinct and in selecting healthy mates, women tend to jump from one male to the other in looking for the exact right match. So yeah, in their perception of personal power as tangible they become materialistic, they choose men for their wealth in securing their progeny, or based on sexual performance, penis size etc. basically for the wrong reasons as it sets a certain selective pressure to reproduce stronger children in that area alone....in a multicultural society it makes women racist as they prefer whiter men or the men that are in the highest social circles, and tends to leave men in the lowest social circles without sex or partners or anything. This can lead to murder, crime, homosexual behaviour and many problems due to their suppressed aggression or due to their opression that are simply wrong, so there is one of the benefits of following the religion and the Qur 'an for what it teaches can have benefits that aren't immediately obvious.
the funny thing is, if people are even further interested these parallels in behaviour can be seen in the bonobo, a version of the chimpanzee only much more sexually active, that forms matriarchal societies. These two species were seperated by the Congo river about 1.5-2 million years ago and because of their inability to swim across the river these very distinct behavioural traits are very easily seen between the bonobo and the chimpanzee that is patriarchal and has alpha males within its social circles. The Qur'an may be serving a similar purpose to this river as it's dividing humans that are taking their own road in life, or have already for millions of years taken their own evolutionary path.
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How do you mean Australia has taken a turn against marriage and religious practices? In Australia the government isn't represented by 1 person rather by the party so it won't matter so significantly if it was a female head or a male head.
BTW materialism is prominent in all western societies, we live in a consumerist world. so no doubt people are becoming more materialistic no doubt that has influences on their choices.
A lot of what you said is very very bias and totally unrelated to this thread, you should start your own thread.
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basically, if you can't understand what I'm writing it's not my problem, you're an excellent example of provocation and disobedience...what one persons eyes and especially what one females eyes maybe will never be able to see is what they immediately or over time through gradual conditioning is this provocation in males and their surmounted suppressed aggression due to the deterrence effect of the laws of the country. It doesn't deter women from engaging in random sexual practices, or depriving men, which they believe is in their nature but does deter man from acts of aggression that is in their competitive nature to other males. So yes it is why Islam prescribes that you don't rise up above man, that you lower your gaze, that you wear a hejab wherever you go, do not associate with anyone other than your husband, because it is in your nature and in your development of your brain that you will never perceive what I'm trying to explain to you....p.s. as well as Gillard there's the queen of England, and a female governor general, either way there is a stratification of females and males so that the females perceive that if they marry to someone of higher status, their children will also benefit, naturally. It may not directly apply to women in the muslim community, but they may be taking bad example off non-muslim women without noticing.
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Do you feel as a male you are suppressed because of the laws of your country?
Where does it say women do not rise up above men?
Lowering of the gaze is for both sexes
The hejab wearing is not prescribed in the Quran
It doesn't say don't associate with anyone other than your husband, unless you mean sexually.
Maybe it is in your nature to feel pride and anger so you lash out.
The queen of England has little power, Australia is a constitutional monarchy and a representative democracy
there is no guarantee that marrying someone of "higher status" will benefit their off springs however people try to stack the odds in their favour. Status isn't everything.
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listen sister I can teach you a few things but that's how ungrateful you are, I'm not here to pretend to be this psychologist, I'm not even interested and human behaviour is very complicated. All I'm saying is I have a world of experience with people here with people in Iran, that is an Islamic country, but you go by what the Qur'an says, you look it up and go by that. If you're not muslim good luck to you, I don't know you, live your own life. I'm here to remind you that ancient people acted in a certain way before monotheism came in, if you are half way between muslim and western it's not my problem.
I was suggesting that if it's difficult for you to interpret the Qur'an you can draw parallels between humans and monkey societies. If you don't see aggression in every male, or in males that don't alleviate it through sex, that's how little you even come close to understanding men...and yes it's for both sexes to lower their gaze.
The governor general is appointed by the queen and can push the elected prime minister out any time, that has definitely happened once in history, if not twice...so yes the head of state here is Quentin Bryce.
Anyway what you're writing is deviating from what I'm saying, read my other posts word for word and look things up if you're interested in the behavioural science. It's muslims in Australia that are getting stepped on, being incarcerated, covered in tats from head to toe, it's those people that no one cares about. Australia is closer to a slave nation, still with lots of opportunity...money talks, everyone's chasing money...as for love, it borders with idolatry for some couples, although it's not the only love around...but I'm sorry to say that I have seen women here act like the worst dog satan, their curse it's like a body with a hollow shell filled with black shit flies...reeks of betrayal.
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What makes me ungrateful? the lack of capacity to understand you the way you want me to understand you? I think that is ungrateful. pardon my incompetence.
I think lots of people struggle in Australia, it's not just muslims. why do you particularly think it's the muslims?
Australia is closer to a slave nation, still with lots of opportunity...money talks, everyone's chasing money...as for love, it borders with idolatry for some couples, although it's not the only love around...but I'm sorry to say that I have seen women here act like the worst dog satan, their curse it's like a body with a hollow shell filled with black shit flies...reeks of betrayal.
The living costs in Australia are expensive, so you're bound to find many people chasing after money to keep up with the Joneses.
Well it's sad that you have experience with some women acting in all sorts of disgraceful manners. Life isn't just your experiences, remember that. anyway you've had experiences in Iran, so how's that, you think that's the ideal model?
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ungrateful because you think I'm going to answer to you now. ungrateful because in Australia you don't have rights, there is no bill of rights, the only constitutional right may be to practice your religion and to an education, how many educated muslims out there in Australia?
so yes another primitive behavioural trait is for the female to control the male, down to every last movement, it's either to conserve energy again maternal, but yes very primitive, very disrespectful...do you know respect or not, you're not sure.....even if there's plenty of food to be comfortable, no risk to survival, the female will be controlling out of sheer pleasure...so yes, in Australia the ranking proceeds more like the queen, female governor general, female prime minister, then it's their males, their females, other white males, white females, then it's the gay, then it's non-caucasian females, then the non-caucasian males, then it's their poodle, then it's the pig and then it's the muslim....that's their order of preference in hiring people, in showing respect to you...so if you're bound to Mr.Jones' right hand or whatever it is you're talking about you should know I'm already practicing restraint by not being aggressive towards you. Out of the 8 years you've been jamming messages on here you'd think it's enough, for Allah and for yourself, what have you learnt on here? stop using the forum sister, it's good advice.
so in summary sex can be dangerous, can lead to dangerous situations for the male...also dangerous because of the females perception of personal power, the perception of the female being in power of the said object, sometimes perceiving their own genitals as a commodity as an avenue for trade or to gain negotiating power, more social power in quelling their insecurities...if it's not where it is, it's where it may lead to...so please be moderate, practice self-restraint, have some common sense and in all opportunities do the right thing and get married first.
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so in summary sex can be dangerous, can lead to dangerous situations for the male...also dangerous because of the females perception of personal power, the perception of the female being in power of the said object, sometimes perceiving their own genitals as a commodity as an avenue for trade or to gain negotiating power, more social power in quelling their insecurities...if it's not where it is, it's where it may lead to...so please be moderate, practice self-restraint, have some common sense and in all opportunities do the right thing and get married first.
Speak for yourself..........mate......
Have you completely missed that Allah is telling the woman to lower her gaze, do not shake her booty, and the best dress is the dress of righteoussnes?
You are debating with a devout muslim sister, my brother.......do not confuse her with whatever perception you have of the people of Australia.And oh so sad that you are on the bottom of the totem pole..............oh wait, in your self-pity you forgot the aborigines....or they don't count?
My apologies Sarah, no my intention of butting in.
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@nimnimak_11 you must re-read verse 2431
It says the woman wasn't allowed tho eksploit their private part or aurat to non mahram man except on the list
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t-hamzei
Why live in a country you feel suffocated in. Don't feel the need to answer to me but you can answer to yourself and save yourself from your own anguish. There are many educated Muslims out in Australia, maybe if you went to some university you would realise that many campuses have Muslim Associations. It wouldn't be the case if there wasn't a demand or Muslims getting educated.
I don't need to control you or any man for that matter, for what benefit do I get? I find it very disrespectful that you claim false accusations against me.
If you've had bad experience of getting hired, that's not pleasant but no need to lash out. BTW if you have any solid evidence of being discriminated against, you could sue the company.
What I am talking about, is that some people imitate each other. So if someone buys a fancy car, others may want to too, other go on holidays the others want to too. Not everyone is like that not everyone is driven by envy, greed, jealousy etc.
I've learnt quite a few things on this forum, alhamdulillah. I don't need to justify my stay on here brother. If it's such a bad place what brings you here?
I personally do not advocate sex before marriage, so don't just look down and pick on women. There is a lot of evil out there on both parts but remember it takes 2 to tango if it's not clear, it takes 2 people to have sex. So both men and women should practise self restraint. Everyone is responsible for their actions no matter how a person is enticed.
Np Emil thanks for putting your perspective.
Sometimes we can be drowned in situations that nothing else looks like hell except our own lives.
Oh and t-hamzei it's true that my eyes may fail to see things and that is not directly linked to my sex i.e. being female but rather because I am human and lack knowledge. Even you are human. yeh, men are human too and mankind was created weak 428
peace.
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Have you completely missed that Allah is telling the woman to lower her gaze, do not shake her booty, and the best dress is the dress of righteoussnes?
You are debating with a devout muslim sister, my brother.......do not confuse her with whatever perception you have of the people of Australia.we've already mentioned lowering gaze in earlier posts and the definition of that and showing respect. As a muslim I presume rank is higher than non-muslims, that is within the patriarchal muslim community, highest rank being that of Allah followed by the Prophet Muhammad sallallahu alaihi wasallam, is the actual ranking system.
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@nimnimak_11 you must re-read verse 2431
It says the woman wasn't allowed tho eksploit their private part or aurat to non mahram man except on the list
2431 And tell the believing females to lower their gaze and keep covered their private parts, and that they should not reveal their beauty except what is apparent, and let them put forth their shawls over their cleavage. And let them not reveal their beauty except to their husbands, or their fathers, or fathers of their husbands, or their sons, or the sons of their husbands, or their brothers, or the sons of their brothers, or the sons of their sisters, or their women, or those maintained by their oaths, or the male servants who are without need, or the child who has not yet understood the composition of women. And let them not strike with their feet in a manner that reveals what they are keeping hidden of their beauty. And repent to God, all of you believers, that you may succeed.
I looked at it again. It is on the list.
One possible meaning of Ma malekat aymunkum= fiance, girlfriend concubine etc.Peace
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434 Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them, refuse to share their beds, beat them; but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means For Allah is Most High, Great.
There, stamped it, took out the brackets if that's ok. I suppose I'm bias or that I'm not allowed to interpret without getting disrespected. ok I'll just post and stamp....it's a bottom up approach instead of a top to bottom. How do you put the whole thing together? Biased is the western system for not understanding the nature of man.
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we've already mentioned lowering gaze in earlier posts and the definition of that and showing respect. As a muslim I presume rank is higher than non-muslims, that is within the patriarchal muslim community, highest rank being that of Allah followed by the Prophet Muhammad sallallahu alaihi wasallam, is the actual ranking system.
You forgot all the other prophets, please show them respect as well. Here is a list of them in case you didnt know
- Adam
- Idris (Enok)
- Nuh (Noa)
- Hud
- Salih
- Ibrahim (Abraham)
- Isma'il (Ismael)
- Ishaq (Isak)
- Yaqub (Jakob)
- Lut (Lot)
- Shu'ayb
- Yusuf (Josef)
- Ayoub (Job)
- Dhul-Kifl
- Yunus (Jona)
- Musa (Moses) and Harun (Aron)
- Hizqeel (Hesekiel)
- Elyas (Elia)
- Shammil (Samuel)
- Dawud (David)
- Sulaiman (Salomo)
- Shia (Jesaja)
- Aramaya (Jeremia)
- Daniel
- Uzair (Esra)
- Zakariyah (Sakarias)
- Yahya (Johannes)
- Isa (Jesus)
- Muhammad
What I mean is that a woman talking back to you (because you are a man) has nothing to do with respect. It has nothing to do with any of the prophets and it definately has nothing to do with the Quran. Not agreeing with you has nothing to do with disobedience. You are clearly confused as to why women do not show you the respect you feel you deserve according to Islam........What you have failed to understand is that according to Islam you do not get respect unless you self is respectful.