Hot/"ramadan" Answer

truthseeker171

After lookin at this link http//www.farmersalmanac.com/calendar/moon-phases/ I see what your talking about, tonight it will be 98 % tomorrow 100% and Wednesday it will be 98%.

So the fast shouldnt actually start on the actual full moon but what it appears to be.

Agreed - one can witness the full moon if it appears to be full with the naked eye. This is a natural way of using the moon as a calendar.
A moon can be never perfectly full as seen from the earth, because only a lunar eclipse would be the perfect balanced full moon.

Salaam,
Truthseeker

Disclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.

mmkhan

Salaam Mmkhan

As far as I know the hottest month on the Northern Hemisphere is in general

continental climate - July, because of the summersolstice
maritime climate - August, because of the gradual warming of the sea during summer

of course there can be local differences.

But these differences over the world seem not to be relevant for the communal fast because of following

According to verse 2185, the fasting is linked to the arrival of the Quran, the fasting can be a celebration for the Guidance that has been received.

2185 The -shahr- (full moon) of Ramadan, in which the Quran was sent down as a guide to the people and a clarification of the guidance and the criterion. Therefore, those of you who witness the -shahr- (full moon) shall fast therein. Whoever is ill or traveling, then the same number from different days. God wants to bring you ease and not to bring you hardship; and so that you may complete the count, and glorify God because He has guided you, that you may be thankful.

This is for me the main reason that all believers over the world can abstain at the same days all over the world - namely the full moon when the Quran has arrived, most probably that was the -scorching moon- in Arabia.
In Arabia the most reddish full moon, during the most hot period, is the first one after 21th of June, this year 3th,4th and 5th of July.

Salaam,
Truthseeker

Disclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.

Salaam brother,

Sorry for late reply.

I think you have to understand means "unzila" in 2185. "Naazil" does not mean send down for the first time as this word is commonly used for rain.

BTW, I have no proof that AlQuraan was send down for the first time in Arabia or to Mohammed.

Hence, fasting has nothing to do with nazala of AlQuraan, inshaAllah.

May Allah increase us in knowledge and guide us to His true path pr
mmkhan

truthseeker171

I think you have to understand means "unzila" in 2185. "Naazil" does not mean send down for the first time as this word is commonly used for rain.

BTW, I have no proof that AlQuraan was send down for the first time in Arabia or to Mohammed.

Hence, fasting has nothing to do with nazala of AlQuraan, inshaAllah.

Salaam brother

2185 The -shahr- (full moon) of Ramadan, in which the Quran was sent down/revealed as a guide to the people and a clarification of the guidance and the criterion. Therefore, those of you who witness the -shahr- (full moon) shall fast therein. Whoever is ill or traveling, then the same number from different days. God wants to bring you ease and not to bring you hardship; and so that you may complete the count, and glorify God because He has guided you, that you may be thankful.

In general the word -unzila- is translated as -sent down- or -revealed-.
Several verses of the Koran mention that water is sent down, for instance in the form of rain.
That does not contradict the reading of verse 2185 as was suggested.

122 We have sent it down an Arabic Quran/recitation, perhaps you will reason.

It is true - we do not have 100 percent evidence that the actual sending down on the person that received the Koran happened in Arabia at that moment.
Though there is enough circumstantial evidence found in the Koran to assume that Mohammad was in an arid area on the Northern Hemisphere. I do not have any evidence that shows otherwise. Hence the first full moon after the summersolstice of the Northern Hemisphere seems to be the right one.
There is no indication that Mohammed lived in a maritime west-coast climate, that is one of the rare climates that has August as the warmest period of the year.

Salaam,
Truthseeker

Disclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.

simonejamilla

Salam Ayman.
I believe you have seen this; http//www.free-islam.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&p=2505 This guy said he debated with you in 2006 on this subject. Cannot see it on here, seems to be a big gap from 2005-2007 I have been studying this subject, and I am confused as to how Ma'doodat means a number from 3-10. This guy says some horrible things about you, which I find completely unfounded. The point he makes is that the AT at the end is only for grammatical Ayaam Madoodat is also valid, in this case the AT may be added to describe the feminine plural Ayaam, again the meaning of the word Madoodat STAYS THE SAME.
Could you be so kind and explain this to me, as I am a little confused.
I appreciate your time and kind response.
Salam Simone.

mmkhan

In general the word -unzila- is translated as -sent down- or -revealed-.
Several verses of the Koran mention that water is sent down, for instance in the form of rain.
That does not contradict the reading of verse 2185 as was suggested.

Salaam brother,

Oh! Sorry again for a month late reply as I missed this thread and was not remember to answer this. Anyways, here it goes...

If you understood the red part above, than you can also understand that "sent down" of rain does not mean that "rain will not send down anymore". Hope you understand what I am saying, inshaAllah.

And there are several aayaats that says about AlQuraan which is still under process of sending down. If you are interested inshaAllah I will write about it.

About Mohammed, please click here

May Allah increase us in knowledge and guide us to His true path pr
mmKhan

ayman

Peace Simone,

I believe you have seen this; http//www.free-islam.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&p=2505 This guy said he debated with you in 2006 on this subject. Cannot see it on here, seems to be a big gap from 2005-2007 I have been studying this subject, and I am confused as to how Ma'doodat means a number from 3-10. This guy says some horrible things about you, which I find completely unfounded. The point he makes is that the AT at the end is only for grammatical Ayaam Madoodat is also valid, in this case the AT may be added to describe the feminine plural Ayaam, again the meaning of the word Madoodat STAYS THE SAME.
Could you be so kind and explain this to me, as I am a little confused.
I appreciate your time and kind response.

Sorry for late reply. Just saw this post.

The meaning of the term "maadoodat" is given by the dictionary as "few". You can see this here

http//i85.photobucket.com/albums/k50/maxq_2006/lexi-madood.gif

If the meaning is not the dictionary meaning and instead means "counted" then what is the purpose of saying that? It becomes superfluous and useless information since any number is counted.

This guy used to post on this forum and he could never explain why he felt so strongly that he needed to deviate from the Classical Arabic dictionary meaning even when his interpretation made the word superfluous. I think his only objective was to argue against me ) and he couldn't see beyond this and realize the implications of his own interpretation.

Not sure where he stands on other issues right now but as far as I remember at the time he was promoting idols like the stone cube, etc. I think that he wasn't very happy when I exposed his filthy idols. )

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13210.msg112329#msg112329

Peace,

Ayman

simonejamilla

Peace Ayman.
LOL! I completely forgot I asked you this question. It's probably a bloomin' good job too, as the months rolled into years, I would have been pulling my hair out, and emailing you every month. o Kinda reminds of a Sci fi film, where you would have to scale mountains, cross rivers, fight dragons and demons to eventually arrive at the Oracle's Castle, and then your question would be answered. Phew! jedi

Thank you Ayman. Still somewhat confused on the Shahr meaning full moon, meaning month? I will no doubt be reading the entire thread again soon enough. brickwall confused

ayman

Peace S-d,

LOL! I completely forgot I asked you this question. It's probably a bloomin' good job too, as the months rolled into years, I would have been pulling my hair out, and emailing you every month. Kinda reminds of a Sci fi film, where you would have to scale mountains, cross rivers, fight dragons and demons to eventually arrive at the Oracle's Castle, and then your question would be answered. Phew! jedi
Thank you Ayman. Still somewhat confused on the Shahr meaning full moon, meaning month? I will no doubt be reading the entire thread again soon enough. brickwall confused

If you can read Arabic, it would probably be more efficient to read the following book

www.quran4peace.org

Peace,

Ayman

farida

Peace S-d,

If you can read Arabic, it would probably be more efficient to read the following book

www.quran4peace.org

Peace,

Ayman

Peace Ayman

What do you think about this ?

Firstly you must remember

that the Qur'aan is a book that has been revealed in The Arabic Language and in particular the dialect of The tribe of Quraysh.

Did you know

that approximately 80% of Muslims do not know Arabic?

Did you know

that 90% and plus of Muslims who say they speak Arabic do not speak the Arabic of The Qur'aan?
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604801.10

Peace

jtc

Peace all.

I realize that this thread is extremely long, and what I am about to write may have already been said or replied to, but in the case that it hasn't, I'll see what people think.

I've been studying the Qur'an in regards to "ramadan". I read Ayman's article about it and honestly found a lot very interesting and could see some basis for it in the Qur'an as well as in 'Arabic dictionaries. However, when discussing the issue last night with my wife a few things came up that have got me thinking.

The definitions of the key words "m'addudat","shahr", and "ramadan" are really the main issues that I believe, once understood correctly, will solve the meaning of the the time and length of the fasting period.

I have noted several definition for the root Ayn-Dal-Dal counted, numbered, and as Ayman pointed out from the Qur'an itself as well as in classical 'Arabic dictionaries, few. All of these definitions can be quite subjective and relative; someone could argue that 29-30 days out of 365 days could be considered a few. I don't necessarily agree with this argument, but I understand it.
In terms of "completing the count" in 2185, this can also be taken to mean different things depending on the meaning of the other words in question. My wife asked why we would have to look at a verse about Hajj to determine the length of fasting, and I was a little confused myself. I wonder if there is an easier way of understanding the exact length of the fasting period based on the verses in relation to fasting itself instead of having to look in so many different places to put a puzzle together. One very interesting thing I noticed is that in 892 God is swearing/taking an oath on 10 nights. What are these ten nights? They must be significant indeed.
The definition of "shahr" as "full moon" is understandable and logical as a "full moon" fits the description of the root Sh-ha-Ra as being "apparent, manifest, conspicuous, public". I found it weird that dictionaries gave the definition of "new moon" as that is not "apparent" at all as far as I am concerned. However, the first sighting of the moon in its phase does make sense to use as a starting point of a time period. When I look at images of the lunar phases I find that the nights before and after the "full moon" look identical to me, so this confuses me as to how it is any easier to determine for lay folk like myself without the use of a "calendar" of sorts.
The root Ra-Meem-Dad does definitely refer to intense heat, but again this is a little subjective in my opinion regarding when this time actually is. Brother Ayman has put forward the idea that this is the "full moon" of the summer solstice, but I was thinking the "full moon" following the summer solstice is actually during the middle (hottest time) of summer, and this might fit the description better.

Again, please forgive me if I am being repetitive or if these issues have already been clarified.

May God increase our knowledge.

jtc

Peace,

Please excuse me and disregard #4 of my previous post. As I read over the article and thread again last night I realized that Ayman is talking about the full moon following the summer solstice, which makes much more sense.

After re-reading as much as I could yesterday, the main thing that I cannot get my head around is this "complete the count=10 days" understanding.

In one post brother Ayman said

..."2185 contains the COMPLETE information one needs to know when to start and end the abstinence. One doesn't need to look at any other verses for that purpose"

I have yet to understand how this is possible. To the best of my knowledge, in order to understand this complete the count, we must look at verses regarding Hajj and Moses' appointment with God on the mount. Is there not a clear cut answer to the duration of the fast within the command itself without unraveling a mystery?

I believe God gave us clear commands to follow that are straightforward, and although certain things required a little thought and consideration for me to understand what I do at this point, fasting/abstinence seems to be a tricky one to figure out solely from the verses dealing with the actual command.

Again, if someone could break down the whole "a few days/complete the count=10 days" from 2184-185, I would really appreciate it.

God bless.

James

jtc

Upon further inspection, I noticed that the listing for Sh-ha-Ra in Lane's Lexicon do not mention "full moon", but rather "new moon" from Lisaan Al Arab and Taj el Aroos, and "the moon,when conspicuous, and near to being full" from Kamoos.

I do not have access to actual classical 'Arabic dictionaries, and would not be able to comprehend them as I can only read the alphabet at this point, but if someone could provide the following dictionary entries with an English translation, it would really help me out.

A reference to "m'adoodat" having a meaning of a "maximum number of ten".
The word "shahr" actually meaning "full moon".

I would like to be able to verify these points as best I can before I am able to accept them as facts.

jtc

Peace be with you.

Please forgive me for being repetitive. I wrote the following as a message to a brother, and I thought that it was the most complete, pardon the pun, question/comment I have put together so far on this subject.

One of the major things regarding the duration of the abstinence I am trying to understand is in regard to the theory of "complete the count" being ten.

I understand exactly what you are saying about putting things in different verses together to grasp a concept, but in my experience I have always found logic in the connections because the verses were related in terms of the subject. For example, although I still may have lots to learn on the subject, I found that the times of salat were found in the limited verses dealing specifically with salat and not from verses on fasting. Likewise, with the topic of fasting/abstinence I expect to find a clear answer about the duration within the verses about the topic itself.

In this case we are looking at the meaning of "complete the count". From what I understand of your explanation and the explanations of many others this phrase in 'Arabic is found throughout the Qur'an to indicate ten. However, in the verses you mentioned I do not see a clear connection.

Let me try to explain

2185 "walitukmiloo alAAiddata" and complete the count

2196 "tilka AAasharatun kamilatun" = this is ten complete
7142 "waatmamnaha biAAashrin" = and we completed then with ten
2827 "fa-in atmamta AAashran" = but if you complete ten

The only verse above that contains a word from the same root "kaf-meem- lam" as in 2185, is 2196. However, this verse, in my understanding, is talking about Hajj and that three days are to be fasted while at/on/in Hajj and 7 once the individual has returned home. I do not know why God chose to say "this is ten complete", but I do not see how we can use this verse about Hajj to define the duration of the annual fast of Ramadan. To me it is similar to a discussion I had years ago with someone trying to define the night and day by the time of fasting mentioned in 2187.

Interestingly, there is another verse dealing with a duration of time which uses a word from the same root, namely 1625. In this verse it says "hawlayni kamilayni" or "2 years complete". To me this shows that there are other "complete counts", that it depends on what is being discussed, and cannot be taken to mean 10 in every occurrence.

As for the other verses, neither say "complete the count". 7142 talks about "completing 30 WITH 10" to make 40, so 40 is the actual total. In 2827 Moses' father in law is giving him an option to complete 10 hajj's if he volunteered to do extra work.

It just seems a like bit of a disjointed argument to tie these verses together to arrive at an understanding of "complete the count" in 2185. I have been thinking of an alternative, but the only thing I could think of, which another brother already pointed out, is that "complete the count" is simply referring to completing the days that one was unable to fast due to to illness or because of travelling. Perhaps "ma'doodat" is all we need in terms of a duration. Maybe God left it up to the individual to fast however many days they are able to as long as it is a "few" after witnessing "shahr ramadan"? I'm not entirely sure yet, but I do see some apparent inconsistencies in the "complete count" being ten argument.

I hope no one takes this as an attack or anything of the sort. I simply want to discuss this matter intelligently with anyone willing to, and pray that God guides us to the truth.

God bless.

James

ayman

Peace Farida,

What do you think about this ?
Firstly you must remember
that the Qur'aan is a book that has been revealed in The Arabic Language and in particular the dialect of The tribe of Quraysh.
Did you know
that approximately 80% of Muslims do not know Arabic?
Did you know
that 90% and plus of Muslims who say they speak Arabic do not speak the Arabic of The Qur'aan?
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604801.10

Language is not an issue. The bigger problem for being guided to a better understanding has nothing to do with language

This is the book no doubt in it guidance for the forethoughtful

Notice that the term "magnify the god for what he has guided you" only occurs with respect to the timing of the fast and the feeding of the poor in the feast. So only those who are guided will know those concepts. This is why they may not be easy.

Peace,

Ayman

ayman

Upon further inspection, I noticed that the listing for Sh-ha-Ra in Lane's Lexicon do not mention "full moon", but rather "new moon" from Lisaan Al Arab and Taj el Aroos, and "the moon,when conspicuous, and near to being full" from Kamoos.

I do not have access to actual classical 'Arabic dictionaries, and would not be able to comprehend them as I can only read the alphabet at this point, but if someone could provide the following dictionary entries with an English translation, it would really help me out.

A reference to "m'adoodat" having a meaning of a "maximum number of ten".
The word "shahr" actually meaning "full moon".

I would like to be able to verify these points as best I can before I am able to accept them as facts.

Here is a copy and paste of the relevant entry showing the meaning of "full-moon" in Lisan Al-Arab

.

Peace,

Ayman

ayman

Peace JTC,

Interestingly, there is another verse dealing with a duration of time which uses a word from the same root, namely 1625. In this verse it says "hawlayni kamilayni" or "2 years complete". To me this shows that there are other "complete counts", that it depends on what is being discussed, and cannot be taken to mean 10 in every occurrence.

Thank you for raising this issue. The word "hawl" indicates a "transformation". For example, it is used in relation to agriculture cycles as well as cycles of female camels bearing baby camels. Of course, with respect to the solar or luni-solar year, it would indicate the solar cycle. However, the context of "hawlayni kamilayni" is not about the solar cycle but is talking about babies. So the relevant cycle would be the cycle of the transformation of babies. In the case of babies this is the time it takes from conception to delivery or the gestation or pregnancy period (P). According to the great reading, pregnancy (P) + weaning (W) is 30 full-moons

....his carrying and weaning thirty full-moons.

P + W = 30 Shahr

We also know that weaning is the period of two "hawl". If we take ?hawl? to mean a solar cycle or 12 solar or lunar months or whatever, then we would get

P = 30-24= 6

This is impossible since it is too little for the average normal gestation period for human babies. So in the context of human babies ?hawl? can only mean the cycle of the transformation of human babies, which is 10 full-moons.

The period delimited by 10 full-moons is approximately 29.5x9 which is approximately 266 days. Interestingly, according to modern science the average embryonic age is 38 weeks or 266 days

http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pregnancy#Duration

When we solve the equation P+W=30 correctly we get the same answer as modern science

P + W = 30 Full-Moons

W = 2P

Therefore

P + 2P = 30 Full-Moons
3P = 30 Full-Moons
P = 10 Full-Moons = 29.5x9 = 265.5 days

So here we have again the word ?COMPLETE cycle/transformation? or "hawlayni kamilayni" being used in relation to each ?hawl? being TEN full-moons.

There is another passage that talks about 2 years and it says the following

...and his weaning within two years...

The term "fi" indicates "within". So the weaning (W) is "within" 2 years so this means less than 2 calendar years.

W < 2 years

W = 2 Pregnancy periods = 20 Full-Moons < 2 years

All of the above statements are in line and do not contradict reality only if a ?COMPLETE hawl? means the human gestation period of TEN full-moons.

Also, this further confirms that ?shahr? must be the event of the full-moon and NOT a 30 day period since 10x30=300 days, which is too long for the average normal human pregnancy.

I hope this helps clarify the issue. Please let me know what you think.

Peace,

Ayman

jtc

Peace Ayman.

Sorry, but I am unable to read that excerpt from Lisan Al Arab you posted as I cannot understand Arabic. Would you be able to translate it for me.

Regarding your response to "completing the count" and how 233 (not 1625 as I mentioned by mistake) I'm still having a hard time understanding how the Qur'an can deal with something apparently so important in such an ambiguous way.

I've been struggling with re-evaluating my understanding of the Qur'an over the past year or so. I feel like the more I study, the less I understand. I used to be "certain" about pretty much everything until I realized the translation I was reading was so far off and just based on hadith and inherited practices. I'm fine with that, but the only alternative is to basically study the Qur'an in a language that has so many possibilities for the meanings of words and phrases. I have read so many articles and posts on this site and can see validity in a lot of them, but things like salat, hajj, and ramadan, I am really not understanding anymore. How can I as an Englishman truly understand a book that is in classical 'Arabic; how can I follow/uphold something I don't even understand according to 1736?

I believe in God, but my faith in the Qur'an seems to be in question as the days go by, and what I once believed was a clear book for all mankind is becoming a linguistic and logical mystery that no one in this day and age can ever truly understand.

This is probably a topic for another post, but I wanted to share it here so that maybe people can understand why topics such as ramadan can be confusing to non-'Arabic speaking individuals who can do nothing but rely on other peoples translations or make up their own.

I appreciate anyone who is willing to discuss the matter further.

God bless.

James

ayman

Peace Ayman.

Sorry, but I am unable to read that excerpt from Lisan Al Arab you posted as I cannot understand Arabic. Would you be able to translate it for me.

Here is the translation

Shahr The moon and it was called such due to it being obvious/famous and apparent and it is said "when it is apparent and nearly full".

Regarding your response to "completing the count" and how 233 (not 1625 as I mentioned by mistake) I'm still having a hard time understanding how the Qur'an can deal with something apparently so important in such an ambiguous way.

I've been struggling with re-evaluating my understanding of the Qur'an over the past year or so. I feel like the more I study, the less I understand. I used to be "certain" about pretty much everything until I realized the translation I was reading was so far off and just based on hadith and inherited practices. I'm fine with that, but the only alternative is to basically study the Qur'an in a language that has so many possibilities for the meanings of words and phrases. I have read so many articles and posts on this site and can see validity in a lot of them, but things like salat, hajj, and ramadan, I am really not understanding anymore. How can I as an Englishman truly understand a book that is in classical 'Arabic; how can I follow/uphold something I don't even understand according to 1736?

I believe in God, but my faith in the Qur'an seems to be in question as the days go by, and what I once believed was a clear book for all mankind is becoming a linguistic and logical mystery that no one in this day and age can ever truly understand.

This is probably a topic for another post, but I wanted to share it here so that maybe people can understand why topics such as ramadan can be confusing to non-'Arabic speaking individuals who can do nothing but rely on other peoples translations or make up their own.

I appreciate anyone who is willing to discuss the matter further.

God bless.

James

I don't believe it should be easy given the emphasis and close relation between knowing the timing and being guided by the great reading as indicated in 2185.

Peace,

Ayman

unknownuser

Peace, Ayman..

I agree with everything you said concerning the issue of "ramadan".

Ramadan = heat (the summer).... agree
Shahr = full moon (plain and clear for all to see)... agree
Shahr Ramadan = the full moon announcing the beginning of summer ...agree
Laylat al-Qadr = night of the summer solstice (longest night of the year)...agree
Laylat al-Qadr marks the beginning of the fastig period, not the last ten days thereof ...agree
The fasting period is not 30 days, but 10 days, beginning from the night of the summer solstice ... agree

There remains the issue of how to fix the lunar cycles to the seasons. Have you come to a solution concerning this issue?

The Jews have their own solution Although they follow a lunar calendar, they add an intercalary month periodically to make their lunar year conform with the seasons. Even those who follow a solar calendar (2/3 of humanity) add a day to February every 4 years to fix the discrepency.

But I keep asking myself Would Allah assign an imperfect system that needs intervention on our part to fix it? Maybe there is something about the 10 New Moon days that we failed to grasp?

Looking forward to you imput on this issue.

@jtc

Concerning Hajj, I believe the most logical explanation is that the 4 Restircted Months are the Hajj months. It cannot be any other way. Allah ordained a period of 4 months wherein we have to abstain from hunting game (wild animals). To make up for this restriction, Allah gave us the livestock (namely cows, camels, sheep and goats) as special creatures totally subserviant to us, and we can slaughter them during those 4 months (instead of hunting). The ancient Arabs knew this, and they observed the restirction. The Hajj serves the following functions

1- Eat the meat of the livestock that is offered, and feed the poor.
2- Discuss the problems that affect society in the presence of the elected leaders of the state.
3- Trade.
4- Remember the place of the first ever Bayt, which I am 100% confident is in the area where human civilization began, and where the First or Orginial Urban Settlement was established.
5- Give charity to the needy

What is going on in the so-called city of Makkah today is a farce, and a mockery of the real Hajj, and has nothing to do with the Deen whatsoever. It's all a bunch of pagan rituals.

Regards.

jtc

Peace Ayman.

So the meaning in Lisaan al 'Arab is "when it is apparent and nearly full"? I thought there was solid proof that it means full moon, not "nearly full".

So far I have found "new moon" and "nearly full moon", but not "full moon". I don't mean to be argumentative, but I just want to see a straightforward definition of a word of phrase at this point. So many articles I come across seem to take meanings and then manipulate them to come to another, albeit similar, meaning that isn't specifically listed in the classical 'Arabic dictionaries.

I'm not sure if this is an honest approach to studying a book that is supposed to be clear. It seems that even the most knowledgeable 'Arabic speakers spends years, if not decades, trying to find this "clarity".