[Opinon] Quranic Way to Punish Thievery: Cutting Hand is Possible

unknownuser

Hoy, Is anyone can help me to give some opinion of my argument?.Im not searching popularity, I just want to find the truth brickwall brickwall

huruf

I think the aya refers to cutting off the possibility to incur in a new theft by whichever way it was done. I do not every entertain the possibility of cutting a member off anybody, vause linguistically, given the meaning of "hands" in Arabic, cinluding Qur'an Arabic, with a legl meaning an not a flesh meaning, I think it is abusive to use it as flesh meaning. By that token we should be looking for the sunglasses of God when his face, which is wherever we turn, faces the sun, astaghfirullah.

Also the cutting of flesh hands entails a myriad of juristic problems which would make it a real mess and basically unjust. Like what would be the minimum amount you would punish for. and from there hundreds of problems.

I know the deterrent parts has captivated many minds, and I even at one time, made me believe in it, but not any more. Death penalty does not deter people from murdering, because they always thinkthat they are going to get away with it. For theft the same. On the contrary, many innocent but stupid would be handless for nothing and without remedy.

Salam

Andantino

i'm sure i've heard "aydiyahumaa" literally means more than 2 hands so its impossible to cut more than 2 hands? anyway, can't bring the source, i don't even know how to use corpus quran since it not friendly-used for me (

Emil

Assalamualaikium.Peace

Originally I'm already create a topic about this in the past ( http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604829.30)
Now I created similiar topic but it's about my final personal opinion about punishment of thievery

Without some bla bla, I will explain my opinion step by step

The verse about the punishment is 538-39.

If the suspect commited thievery for the first time, they will not get punishment, but they must repenting (539)
But if they commited same crime for second time after repenting , this time the cutting hand can be occured.

Why? Following this circumstances

Repent is an agreement to God for more devouting, violating this agreement is astray 390,571
Islam is against agreement violating 227, 2117, 376, 94 etc
Quran's law is soft but discipline, It forgiving crime if repenting, but hard punishment if commited for second time.

Why cutting hand is perfect penalty for thievery?

You know Corruption, it's the baddast style of thievery.Corruption is major concern in all country especially in Asean, Middle East and African.This Corruptor rat stole the civil property, they are enemy of state which can make a country poor and undeveloped.They aren't fell guilty for stealing people right while poverty is still major problem.They have no heart.

I live in an southeast Asia country which heaven for corruptor, if you live in here you will watch news about corruption everyday in TV.Plus they have soft punishment (in the name of human right), and it's possible they commited again someday.

We look China, they become great developing county because this country is disciplined well as you know the corruptor get death penalty.Islam also teaching us to become discipline , moreover cutting hand is softer than death.Discipline is way to success.

I'm feel sorry to some Quranist who very soft to this crime in the name of translation and human right

You will be mad if your motocycle was stolen, moreover thievery is not little kitty crime but hazardous crime.

Salam Earthdom

I am somewhere in between the soft and hard and I have not really made up my mind.

I agree with you that thievery and corruption should be punished harder than what it is today in most countries. Especially corruption.......I had my motorcycle stolen once and if I would have caught the thief I would have done more than cutting off his hand, believe me.

But on the other hand (no joke intended) enforcing a stricter rule comes with a lot of complications. Like Huruf stated; When should this punishment be used? When a dictator is stealing from his people or a young boy stealing a loaf of bread because he wants to feed his family?

If we would live in the Ummah as prescribed by Allah and Islam there would be no need for anybody stealing to feed his family. There would be no need for junkies to steal so they can get money for their next fix. The only theft going on would be from those who do it out of greed, and this deserves a harsh punishment.

I am describing a Utopia and it is very naive.......but still I think it is kinda true. Unfortunately we cannot enforce this law until the rest of society is truly Islamic, so until then I am leaning on the more softer approach and see the verses as "take away ability to steal" rather than physically cutting off pieces.

unknownuser

I think the aya refers to cutting off the possibility to incur in a new theft by whichever way it was done. I do not every entertain the possibility of cutting a member off anybody, vause linguistically, given the meaning of "hands" in Arabic, cinluding Qur'an Arabic, with a legl meaning an not a flesh meaning, I think it is abusive to use it as flesh meaning. By that token we should be looking for the sunglasses of God when his face, which is wherever we turn, faces the sun, astaghfirullah.

It's not about translation and grammar thing it's about reality and implementation

I know the deterrent parts has captivated many minds, and I even at one time, made me believe in it, but not any more. Death penalty does not deter people from murdering, because they always thinkthat they are going to get away with it. For theft the same. On the contrary, many innocent but stupid would be handless for nothing and without remedy.

Not deter but reducing.This world is still have evils because this world is not heaven.By implementing this punishment make the people thinking twice to do that.

I am describing a Utopia and it is very naive.......but still I think it is kinda true. Unfortunately we cannot enforce this law until the rest of society is truly Islamic, so until then I am leaning on the more softer approach and see the verses as "take away ability to steal" rather than physically cutting off pieces.

You're from Sweden right, of cource that country has little tiny corruption.
If you can, you can do simulation to live in my country, in there you will realize "take away ability to steal" or prison thing is not enough.Your motocycle loss is not enough to describing what happened in here.

Renegade

Peace Earthdom,
I think soft punishment is very reasonable and practical. It's very easy to steal a million dollars but if you have to work and pay back the money you won't steal again.
If a very poor person commits theft to feed his kids who are starving to death and you cut off his hands, he wont be able to work in the future. Don't you think its unfair?

Emil

You're from Sweden right, of cource that country has little tiny corruption.
If you can, you can do simulation to live in my country, in there you will realize "take away ability to steal" or prison thing is not enough.Your motocycle loss is not enough to describing what happened in here.

Correct, but I have lived in China, Thailand and Singapore. I have worked in Croatia, Egypt, Poland, Tunisia, France, Germany, England, Brazil, Panama. I am married to an Ethiopian girl, therefore spent a lot of time in that country....I am far too familiar with corruption.

So trust me brother when I say I know where you are coming from without knowing where you actually come from

mohf

Salaam,

I just wanted to throw some potentially usefull facts.

The cutting of the hands is only practised in sunnism. In shi'ism, it is actually understood as marking the hands. They have many different hadiths we don't care about, but there is one Quranic example that can support this.

In the chapter about prophet Yusuf, when he was commanded to go to his mistress and move forward, and all the women who had a knife in their hand looked at Yusuf, they "Iqta aydahumma" too. A couple of verses later, in the prison, when he was about to get free Yusuf asked about what the state was of the women who "Iqta aydahumma". Logically speaking, nobody can cutt off his/her own hands with a simple kitchen knife. This proves that the hands were actually not completely cut. More likely that they were only "marked".

There is also a possibillity that what is meant is that they cut their resources, but that would rise the question why the Quran mentions the knife.

unknownuser

If a very poor person commits theft to feed his kids who are starving to death and you cut off his hands, he wont be able to work in the future. Don't you think its unfair?

I'm already wrote it in the first post.I think its fair n judicious
If that poor commited for first time, that poor can be pardoned, but must repenting
But if did second time after repent, that poor must be punished because violating repent agreement.

Correct, but I have lived in China, Thailand and Singapore. I have worked in Croatia, Egypt, Poland, Tunisia, France, Germany, England, Brazil, Panama. I am married to an Ethiopian girl, therefore spent a lot of time in that country....I am far too familiar with corruption.

So trust me brother when I say I know where you are coming from without knowing where you actually come from )

Wow traveler right, you must be work in container ship.I'm actually come from Indonesia.

There is also a possibillity that what is meant is that they cut their resources, but that would rise the question why the Quran mentions the knife.

Yeah there is no relation between Joseph's story and thief punishment

Emil

Wow traveler right, you must be work in container ship.I'm actually come from Indonesia.

Yeah, well I have actually worked in those countries, not only visited them while working.....

Indonesia, huh? Then I totally get where you are coming from........My point brother was that it is a very challenging task to actually implementing this punishment. There are so many perspectives to consider and so many different situations that I am not sure the best judge on earth can fairly call.

But yes, corruption should definately be punished harder...........

Renegade

Indonesia, huh? Then I totally get where you are coming from........My point brother was that it is a very challenging task to actually implementing this punishment. There are so many perspectives to consider and so many different situations that I am not sure the best judge on earth can fairly call.

I agree with what Emil said. Cutting off hands can easily be exploited especially if a country is in poor law and order situation.
Secondly, you didn't back up "Quran's law is soft but discipline, It forgiving crime if repenting, but hard punishment if commited for second time." by any quranic verses.

supportpeacenotwar

Peace Earthdom,
I think soft punishment is very reasonable and practical. It's very easy to steal a million dollars but if you have to work and pay back the money you won't steal again.
If a very poor person commits theft to feed his kids who are starving to death and you cut off his hands, he wont be able to work in the future. Don't you think its unfair?

This is the type of reasoning that the Quran encourages in my view. A practical and straightforward way to live. It also seem significant that other crimes do not say cut off a limb or part of their limbs. I also think that the point of not punishing the guilty is important and from what I recall, Prophet Yusuf refers to this. So for example, with the death penalty you have to be incredibly sure and even then forgiveness is encouraged, which leads to compensatory forms of punishment.

huruf

It's not about translation and grammar thing it's about reality and implementation

?What reality? theft is theft and the term cut hands is a term with a juristic meaning. That is reality. I do not know whether then you talk about reality, you feel so upset about the corruption rampant somewhere that you think that is THE reality and the rest is nothing. Also, where there is so much corruption you seem to take for granted something very, very, risky, that the fact of imposing the cutting of flesh hands is some magical remedy that by its very instauration will make corruption go. That is, excuse me, pure dream. If there is corruption, what will happen if you start cutting hands of thieves, is that the corruption rampant everywhere will prevent that the true hieves who have money and connections will get the necessary escapegoats to take their blame and that you will have a corrupt society in which, on top of everything else, you have poor wretches divested of their flesh hands, because the corrupts continue to rule and therefore manage the courts and the policy and the witnessess and so on, and so forth.

I suppose that not even in your country theft is supposed to go unpunished. Well, if it goes unpunished there being laws and punishments for it, why is it?

If the problem is corruption, they fight corruption, but no with magical and miraculous means, but the hard way, that is with hard study of the phenomenon, its operation and the way it perpetuates and then start the long job of changing consciences, and attitudes and mentality. If people who get away with crime, are not penalised, the fact that you change the penalty will only chage the penalty not the corruption.

Mind you, you can always start some propular court ans bring the corrupt to book and cut their hands, but you better be very, very, very sure that you get real culprits and not some wretch that is made to take the rage of the peoploe, because the people are enraged and they need blood to satisfy themselves.

Also punishing an inocet will most certainly not get you into Paradise. I think it is hadith that says it is better to let 10 criminals escape than to punish a single innocent. It may be just a hadith, but I agree with it. It is inadmissible to punish an ainnocent, and more than inadmissible to do it out of rage because one is in a hurry to get a society as one wants it and does not have the talent, the guts, or the intelligence to do it right, so better do it wrong than not do it. And if an innocent is punished, just bring for some statistics that punishing innocents reduces crime.

Salaam

Jafar

I live in an southeast Asia country which heaven for corruptor, if you live in here you will watch news about corruption everyday in TV.

A VERY GOOD SIGN!
Corruptions appears on TV everyday, at least somebody is doing something as they're being caught... daily..

Compare 'your situation' with those who sees corruption every day and never saw anyone getting caught on TV.
You should count your blessings..

Plus they have soft punishment (in the name of human right), and it's possible they commited again someday.

I doubt it... TRUST especially PUBLIC TRUST is hard to achieve and easy to lose..

We look China, they become great developing county because this country is disciplined well as you know the corruptor get death penalty.Islam also teaching us to become discipline , moreover cutting hand is softer than death.Discipline is way to success.

Ho ho ho ho, you should try living in China and see 'who's actually getting the death penalty'....

No I don't vote for 'literally cutting off hand' or 'death penalty'.
Corruption is a complex crime.. and... corruption CAN be legalized.

Thus the popular saying
"In USA there's no more corruption, only 'donation' "...

So even 'the law' itself can be corrupted..

Salam / Peace

supportpeacenotwar

This is the type of reasoning that the Quran encourages in my view. A practical and straightforward way to live. It also seem significant that other crimes do not say cut off a limb or part of their limbs. I also think that the point of not punishing the guilty is important and from what I recall, Prophet Yusuf refers to this. So for example, with the death penalty you have to be incredibly sure and even then forgiveness is encouraged, which leads to compensatory forms of punishment.

I actually meant not punishing the innocent. the modify button appears to have gone for that particular post. I guess the point is if there are doubts about a legal system because of the people running it - should you be careful when applying laws from the Quran?

unknownuser

I agree with what Emil said. Cutting off hands can easily be exploited especially if a country is in poor law and order situation.Secondly, you didn't back up "Quran's law is soft but discipline, It forgiving crime if repenting, but hard punishment if commited for second time." by any quranic verses.

I think like Saudi.Unlike Taliban controlled area Saudi's law enforcement is good, they still implementing this, cause they're sunnism,wahabism
my setence was talking about that thief's punishment so the back up is 538-39.

Prophet Yusuf refers to this. So for example, with the death penalty you have to be incredibly sure and even then forgiveness is encouraged, which leads to compensatory forms of punishment.

I said again there are no relations between Yusuf's story and thief penalty
That was Prophet Yusuf's trick so his family can be accepted in palace.

That is, excuse me, pure dream. If there is corruption, what will happen if you start cutting hands of thieves, is that the corruption rampant everywhere will prevent that the true hieves who have money and connections will get the necessary escapegoats to take their blame and that you will have a corrupt society in which, on top of everything else, you have poor wretches divested of their flesh hands, because the corrupts continue to rule and therefore manage the courts and the policy and the witnessess and so on, and so forth.

Yeah that always happened in here.You can buy a law
Islamic law cannot be realized if the bureaucrats is bad.

No I don't vote for 'literally cutting off hand' or 'death penalty'.
Corruption is a complex crime.. and... corruption CAN be legalized.
Thus the popular saying
"In USA there's no more corruption, only 'donation' "...

Corruption can be legalized, yeah it will became one of popular occupations
donation? )

Wakas

See

http//www.misconceptions-about-islam.com/cut-off-hands-theft.htm

unknownuser

http//www.misconceptions-about-islam.com/cut-off-hands-theft.htm

I'm already read it multiple time, but once again, it's in the name of translation

huruf

I'm already read it multiple time, but once again, it's in the name of translation

And when you choose to take it as severing the hands in what are you believing but in translation? Severing the hands is translation, and bad translation at that.

Salaam

Petrus

Being not an arabic speaker/reader, my study of Quran is mainly on english/italian translations. If we really want to read the exact words of Quran we MUST go straight to the original language. However does that really helps in our life? So far I've come to the conclusion that we must consider the time in history the Quran came, the people/culture it was delivered for. Quran is a Book about Life, consider it was delivered throughout several years of war, of peace, in the process of inner consciousness construction of a community shattered in pieces. God's message spoke for those "present times" with an idea of universality. Justice was different (phisycal punishment was allowed, today is not and it shouldn't be allowed never ever!), male/female roles in society were different (and it doesn't implies the concept of men being better of women), igiene and nutrition were different. I believe (now... maybe in the future, God willing, I'll change my point of view) that we need to keep an eye on the past THROUGH the Quran to be able to live in the present and in the future.
Peace!