Does belief in "scriptures" involve circular logic?
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Peace be with you all.
I have been on this forum for a little over a year now and have read probably thousands of posts. I have found many interesting points, but recently I feel like my faith in 'scriptures" is in crisis.
My mother is a devout Catholic. As long as I lived with my mother, I attended church, was an altar boy, went to Sunday school, etc.I grew up learning that the Bible was the word of God. Why? Simply because the priests and my mother told me so. I didn't accept that as approached adolescence. I questioned things and stopped believing in a trinity and that the Bible was even from God, but I still believed in God.
Fast forward a few years and I started to think that God must have a set of rules or a way of life He wants me to follow. I started reading a translation of the Qur'an and I was very impressed. I found comfort in the old stories of the prophets I was already familiar with and I agreed a lot more with the concept of Jesus just being a human and that there is only One God, the One who created everything. I believed it was the word of God. Why? Looking back now, I would probably say because it seemed to be as true a book as I have ever read regarding God, and it claimed to be from God.
Over the past year, I've started to really try to understand the Qur'an and not be limited to one translation as I disagree with many of the traditional interpretations that are based on "hadith". I do not believe that the Islam being practiced by the billion or so "muslims" is a "religion of God". There is too much blatant pagan idol worship involved.
Now, I have claimed to follow the Qur'an alone for years now, but realize that I was paying that statement lip service. Up until very recently I have had full confidence that the Qur'an is the word of God, and that I understand that it says that basically "this book has everything you need in it". I am starting to wonder if that is true. I am starting to wonder if it is actually possible to follow this book alone and be able to understand things that seem to be unexplained. I am starting to wonder if it is even from God at all.
If the "muslims" are correct in that the Qur'an does not say that it is sufficient and that you must follow the "example of the prophet", then I would have to say the whole concept of the Qur'an being from God is not acceptable.
If the "muslims" are wrong, if the Qur'an really does say that it is sufficient, then it should be easy to understand. At this point I do not thin this is 100% correct, as there seems to be quite a number of issues that even the most knowledgeable forum participants and moderators, and I either do not agree on or have changed understandings on over the years. Should a book from God which is apparently the key to salvation be so difficult to grasp. If concepts such as "salat" are so important for mankind, why are they so hard to understand in any other way than a "ritual prayer"?
The oldest Qur'an, to the best of my knowledge, is the Sanaa Qur'an which is carbon dated as being written in the 7th century. No one claims that Muhammad wrote this. How do we know that this book came from God through a man named Muhammad anyway? Because the Qur'an says so? Is this not the exact same circular logic many Christians use to defend their belief in Jesus being the "begotten son of God", because the Bible says so.
Does it make sense for God to send a book that is supposed to be for all people, in all places, for all times and have it in a language that for all intents and purposes is dead? "Classical Arabic" dictionaries were written in the medieval era, so how accurate can they be to determine what the words of the Qur'an mean? It seems like every person must learn 'Arabic in order to actually understand the Qur'an, otherwise they might be just following another person's biased interpretation.
I have not come to any conclusion about all of these issues, but I would really like to have an intelligent conversation/discussion if people are interested. Perhaps I am becoming impatient or hopeless. Maybe the Qur'an is really the word of God and maybe its a lot simpler than I think, but at the moment, it seems extremely difficult to understand and that to me does not fit in my mind as being from God.
May God help us all understand and accept the truth, no matter what it is.
James
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I do not think you are becoming impatient and hopeless. What I perceive is that you are becoming unsatisfied and "heartless". By heartless I mean to say that the Qur'an is nothing if the heart is not leading it. You must not follow Qur'an or a mental configuration or appearance of it. You must follow the heart straight to God. The Qur'an is to help us along, but it is our own human fitra what keeps us conscious of God if we choose it to be so. This heart, this human fitra is the reason why even in the "worst" religion we may find good and saintly people, because what we never can take out of ourselves is our fitra, our human nature capable of feeling and perceiving the divine in everything, the divine Mercy in everything.
Depend on your goodness on the dive Mercy which you are and fill the Qur'an with it if you want to get something out of it.
That is what I feel and sense when I read your words.
Best wishes and best of courage, fortunately we can never run away from our Creator and Lover.
Salaam
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Peace jtc,
- I agree fully with what huruf just said. I think she really nailed it there.
To elaborate along the same line
- When we say that the quran is for anyone at anytime, just means that it is not exclusive to any special group to claim it as its own to use.
- Belief in the quran becomes what you call "circular logic" when we base our faith on the quran. This is in my opinion a mistake. The quran is just a book. It is only a help, guidance and criterion... but it is not the foundation of the connection to Allah. It is just a book! The connection to Allah, aka faith in God, is not something you get from a book. It is not something intellectual. The connection to Allah, the awareness of Allah, doesn't come from a book. It is rather something we have within ourselves. Once we can sense that there is "something" more to reality than what we see, then the quran can be a guide to lead us further in a direction of development of ourselves. The quran can point out things for us to ponder that may increase our awareness further of Allah... strengthen our connection. Faith is not supposed to be blind.
The more we think and try to reason out our faith in God, the more elusive, artificial and dead it seems. The connection to Allah is something we experience or sense, not some we figure out with our intellect. So we won't find faith in a book. The connection is already built in within us... but we have to become aware of it and develop it...
I suggest you relax, stop thinking so much, stop trying to force a conclusion about God and quran. Keep it simple for yourself. Just pray for guidance and don't overthink things. Worries of the mind will just bring more confusion. You cannot force yourself into faith. A knot won't open up just because we pull the strings harder.
Kind regards
Peace -
I agree with Huruf and Zulf, just relax, take it slowly step by step. Sometimes, the more we go over things and overthink things the more problematic something can seem - when in actuality, the answer was much more simple and there for the taking. Asking for guidance and trusting in God, "relinquish" control to our Creator, you will find the answers. It will come, it may take time but I believe you can get there!
Peace, brother, Insha'Allah this helps.
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Salam jtc
If the "muslims" are wrong, if the Qur'an really does say that it is sufficient, then it should be easy to understand. At this point I do not thin this is 100% correct, as there seems to be quite a number of issues that even the most knowledgeable forum participants and moderators, and I either do not agree on or have changed understandings on over the years. Should a book from God which is apparently the key to salvation be so difficult to grasp. If concepts such as "salat" are so important for mankind, why are they so hard to understand in any other way than a "ritual prayer"?
The oldest Qur'an, to the best of my knowledge, is the Sanaa Qur'an which is carbon dated as being written in the 7th century. No one claims that Muhammad wrote this. How do we know that this book came from God through a man named Muhammad anyway? Because the Qur'an says so? Is this not the exact same circular logic many Christians use to defend their belief in Jesus being the "begotten son of God", because the Bible says so.
Does it make sense for God to send a book that is supposed to be for all people, in all places, for all times and have it in a language that for all intents and purposes is dead? "Classical Arabic" dictionaries were written in the medieval era, so how accurate can they be to determine what the words of the Qur'an mean? It seems like every person must learn 'Arabic in order to actually understand the Qur'an, otherwise they might be just following another person's biased interpretation.
As the prophets they are nothing as warners and bringers for good news, the Quran by itself is not more then a gift and a help in the way of Allah.
Prayer is not specified, not because God wants us to make difficult, but because it not must be detailed, it will be a help to our personal path to Allah. Since we are thousands of different nations and peoples, must exist logically, not just one 'correct' prayer and everything else is wrong.
Exactly the same with fasting - Fasting and prayer is a help for our spirituality, a help to come closer to God. You do not need to be defined, even more, it would be fundamentally wrong to wish to limit it. There are many paths to God and the Qurand is a help and a guide and made as a remembrance/Reminder - slightly in ear and mind - easy (not like other books) to learn by heart. (I think that memorization of the Quran contains a great blessing, if you do not simply turn off your mind and babbling like a parrot)
peace ) -
Peace.
Than you all for your input. I appreciate it. Just to clear up one thing that might have come across differently in my posts, I am not upset or scared or anything like that. I'm actually more peaceful now than I have been for a while. I am just asking people what they think; perhaps others have gone through or are going through similar things in their lives.
I have faith in God, and it doesn't stem from the Qur'an because I believed in God before I read the Qur'an. Right now, I am going back to square one, that is, I am re-reading the Qur'an to see if I still believe that it is actually the word of God, or a book written by a man who was truly inspired by God, or a book written by a man who thought he was inspired by God.
I am taking my time, and trying to remain open minded, but I have stopped performing "salat" as I was because I feel hypocritical doing something that I am unsure of. Perhaps I should continue my "salat" though, as I did enjoy praising God and asking for His help at specific times in the day to keep Him in my mind.
I have many questions, but I am content with the belief that God will not punish me for being curious and not wanting to follow something I have no understanding of.
Peace,
James
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Salam jtc
Peace.
Than you all for your input. I appreciate it. Just to clear up one thing that might have come across differently in my posts, I am not upset or scared or anything like that. I'm actually more peaceful now than I have been for a while. I am just asking people what they think; perhaps others have gone through or are going through similar things in their lives.
I have faith in God, and it doesn't stem from the Qur'an because I believed in God before I read the Qur'an. Right now, I am going back to square one, that is, I am re-reading the Qur'an to see if I still believe that it is actually the word of God, or a book written by a man who was truly inspired by God, or a book written by a man who thought he was inspired by God.
I am taking my time, and trying to remain open minded, but I have stopped performing "salat" as I was because I feel hypocritical doing something that I am unsure of. Perhaps I should continue my "salat" though, as I did enjoy praising God and asking for His help at specific times in the day to keep Him in my mind.
I have many questions, but I am content with the belief that God will not punish me for being curious and not wanting to follow something I have no understanding of.
Peace,
James
i understand your points very good. I didn't stop my salat, for your reason given above.I like to interrupt my daily affairs for God exactly as you said to keep Him in my mind. It's my daily meditation and for me a blessing. Other people may see it not so- and as i said we all are different and there are many ways to God.
Peace -
Peace.
Than you all for your input. I appreciate it. Just to clear up one thing that might have come across differently in my posts, I am not upset or scared or anything like that. I'm actually more peaceful now than I have been for a while. I am just asking people what they think; perhaps others have gone through or are going through similar things in their lives.
I have faith in God, and it doesn't stem from the Qur'an because I believed in God before I read the Qur'an. Right now, I am going back to square one, that is, I am re-reading the Qur'an to see if I still believe that it is actually the word of God, or a book written by a man who was truly inspired by God, or a book written by a man who thought he was inspired by God.
You make some interesting points. It seems you have been able to rationalise some parts of the Koran with what your emotional condition and personality requires. That's why I think you are actually in emotional equilibrium, what you call at peace. That's brilliant.
You are now starting to tread on dangerous ground. As you have yourself experienced, the Koran has a lot of "this is like that because the Koran says so". If you start digging too much you will possibly open a can of worms which will be difficult to resolve. Sometimes it is better and nicer not to lift all the veils and remove all the decorations to enjoy and benefit from what they are and the way they are.
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Peace.
Than you all for your input. I appreciate it. Just to clear up one thing that might have come across differently in my posts, I am not upset or scared or anything like that. I'm actually more peaceful now than I have been for a while. I am just asking people what they think; perhaps others have gone through or are going through similar things in their lives.
Salaam,
I didn't think you were particularly upset or scared from what you wrote. However, you did say that maybe you were being impatient - saying relax after something like this is just a way of saying take a step back. If you haven't made your mind up, as you said in this post, - but your latest post suggested you now think that believing in the Quran is related to blind faith - then it seems most appropriate to say that. We (those of us who said that) aren't saying you don't have any kind of peace! lol
Best of luck James.