Is the idea of "Qur'an alone" a way of escaping some horrible truth?
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Salaam, James,
There is nothing I could correct in what you say. You speak honestly, and eventually you will get somewhere. You will get wherever God wants you to get and in the way He wants you to get there, no other way.
This thought you state, I think many of us may have had it at some time.
You want objective proof. You are the proof. You do not need any other, it will be hearsay. Let the Qur'an speak to you, not to anybody else, not through some filter. Let it speak to you. Shun those parts of it where you may get noise, parasites. We read so much, we hear so much, that everything we read, particularly Qur'an, is tainted by that noise. Just drop that, let your pure heart, at least as pure as you can manage, because absolute purity is out of reach for limited beings like us, but as free of noise and clatter as you can, and let it speak to you, to you, not through the sieve of what anybody may think, scholars, internet cattle or whatever... Just you. The secret is inyou, not in Qur'an, the qur'an will be your mirror.
And do not worry about what interpretation is right. Yours, your honest, sincere interpretation from your heart will be the right one. That one, precisely that one. The rest is noise, parasites. Do you think God, Qur'an, needed some permission from history, from scholars, from researchers, from maulanas, cheijs or whatever to speak to you? It is to you and not to some world, to whom the Qur'an is addressed, yes to you. To your honest loving heart. Why did God reveal anything at all? So that we can hand it over to some authority to do the job for us? No. It is to confirm in writing or in words what you knwo in your heart. You will hear your echo. When you speak you are not a hearer of what you say, the Qur'an is your echo. Or did you think it was revealed so that some caste could make it their property and give you what it says because they are the owners and have special powers and privileges to interpose themselves between the words of YOUR God and you?
We are sociable animals, we need each other to be in the world, and surely also to be beyond this world, but we must not confound that with subservience to others, because that is to despise, disdain, unwelcome what is the special gift of our Lover to each of us. We are who we are, it is with what we are that we must corresponde to our Lover, not with some regurgitated fake loan from anybody else. Be happy to be you, to understand by yourself and do not feel guilty. That is the way it should be from your heart to the divine mercy, no intermediaries. Trust. And trust starts by trusting oneself when one is honest and lets down the barricades that one erects to protect oneself from the world. With God you can let them down, hour honest truth is all protection you need.
Yes, it is YOUR interpetation what matters. That is why you are given a heart and an intellect. Were it not so, why should you need any capacity to think or to feel? Better to appreciate the gift you are to yourself and thank God for it, and ENJOY IT. Sometimes we get so much anti-ego preaching, that ego seems to be a sin, but ego is as much a gift of God as selfless love is. It is a matter of truth and justice. Do justice to yourself to start with and trust your guts and your sincerest desires.
Salaam
I read over this again, and these seem like genuinely thoughtful words to help someone in need. I can understand why you got a commendation Huruf! )
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Peace everyone.
I've really been reading a lot recently. As usual I am trying to keep an open mind and heart and asking God to help me see the truth and accept it.
Earlier this week, a thought came in my mind that has never come up in my last 8 years of trying to follow the Qur'an. The question is this What if the muslim's are right in how they understand their religion? What if the Qur'an can only be understood/interpreted with the help of "islamic history", and all of their rituals are actually truly what the Qur'an is referring to? What if good intentioned people who see this as unacceptable, but want to hold on to the belief in a divine scripture from God, are just creating their own interpretations of the Qur'an to prove it's divinity?
I have been reading through hundreds of posts to see why people believe in the Qur'an and how "hadiths" are nonsense and not trustworthy, but there has to be some truth to the history of the Qur'an somewhere; it didn't just fall out of the sky one day. Maybe the truth is so unacceptable that we are trying to make the Qur'an more than what it is or something completely different. The huge variations in different understandings of apparent core concepts of the Qur'an such as "salat" and "hajj", the inclusion or exclusion of rituals in the "deen", the history of who and where Muhammad was, and even the nature of God described in the Qur'an, seems to me to show that the Qur'an is beyond the grasp of non 'Arabic speaking people of today and is open to any interpretation that "makes sense" to each individual.
I have been thinking a lot, and all I want to do is live a good life to show God I am thankful for it. The majority of things I have heard and read from people about why they believe the Qur'an have showed me that is simply a matter of blind faith for the most part. I cannot accept that as I believe that the content of a book must prove (by logic and its overall theme and instructions) to be divine before I can move on. Unfortunately, I am a point now where I cannot make sense of the Qur'an's laws which I am supposed to implement in my life to spare me Hell.
If anyone has something they want to share which may correct me or enlighten me, if God wills it, I'd really appreciate it.
God bless.
James
I think you have a very strong point in that I detected that Quranist many times create problems for themselves. Not everything in Tradition has to be questioned. If the shoe fits wear it.
I think what Jewishdude said is very relevant. Truth maybe truth in one side of the valley but could be falsehood in another side of the valley. Killing yourself maybe wrong in one side of the valley but Moses telling his people to take their lives maybe truth in another side of the valley. Too often Quranist take people and themselves in a long circle trying to interpret the Quran. This has to do with the influence that sectarian Islam has over us. Even the structure of this forum looks like the 5 pillars of Islam where Salat, Haj and Ramadan are placed in one section. Even Islamic calendar is there. There is a shadow that sectarian Islam is casting on us and it influences us in many ways. In time they will diminish. But i agree with you that many Quranist come with lots of legalism and ritualism in them and complicate matters and it rubs off on the people who visit the forum. Often these Quranist see their arguments as convincing while in many ways the readers who follow their arguments do not and see it as complicated and going in circles. And so some will feel left hanging.
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I think you have a very strong point in that I detected that Quranist many times create problems for themselves. Not everything in Tradition has to be questioned. If the shoe fits wear it.
I think what Jewishdude said is very relevant. Truth maybe truth in one side of the valley but could be falsehood in another side of the valley. Killing yourself maybe wrong in one side of the valley but Moses telling his people to take their lives maybe truth in another side of the valley. Too often Quranist take people and themselves in a long circle trying to interpret the Quran. This has to do with the influence that sectarian Islam has over us. Even the structure of this forum looks like the 5 pillars of Islam where Salat, Haj and Ramadan are placed in one section. Even Islamic calendar is there. There is a shadow that sectarian Islam is casting on us and it influences us in many ways. In time they will diminish. But i agree with you that many Quranist come with lots of legalism and ritualism in them and complicate matters and it rubs off on the people who visit the forum. Often these Quranist see their arguments as convincing while in many ways the readers who follow their arguments do not and see it as complicated and going in circles. And so some will feel left hanging.
Salam, Bigmo.
You just spoke my mind. You're that very one person I've found in this entire forum who is my like-minded in most of the cases. I completely agree with what you've said, and I also think that sometimes a Quranist can be really misleading, although that is not usually his/her intention. Their ideas can be very attractive sometimes but doesn't necessarily has to be the truth. Hence, can mislead others. And I don't know why some of the Quranists have to point fingers in every single matter of the Sunnis, which I find to be kind of disappointing. I'm a Quran-aloner myself, but hey, similar to the Sunnis, I also believe that faith, salat, zakat, siyam and hajj are the most important aspects of our deen. I've although added a new one in my list, which is 'good deeds'. So for me, it has six pillars.
Peace.
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Salam James,
I experimented with your titular question before I actually accepted Quranist Islam. The answer I got was, if the Quran was pro-Traditional Islam, it would look SO DIFFERENT from what it is today. Lets say 'salah' is 'ritual prayers', ask the following questions
a. Could Allah not just put in a chapter called "the ritual of salah" and outline the steps in clear language.b. Why would Allah put these so-called 'times' SO FAR apart and in 2 different versions (11/114 and 17/7
c. Why did every single rasool go to his people and NEVER mention the salah (Chapters 7, 11 and 26) as a ritual?
If you want to portray the Quran as a ritual-centric book, it would look SO SO DIFFERENT from what it is now.
Don't worry about the variance in views. You're not here to serve those people! All of us are here to serve Allah so read as best you can and apply. Allah will show you signs so you can refine your understanding. It's an interactive process. Share your views, take what views make sense sure but ultimately - it's YOUR path.
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Peace
Forgive my ignorance Scribbler.....but I could not quite understand your point......I do not believe in articles of faith.......I mean your post and subject seem unrelated.....please clarify iit to me....
Peace
IrfanSalam, Harun.
Ok, let me clarify my point. First of all, brother Bigmo stated that we have an influence of sectarian Islam over us, which I believe is true. And at the same time most of us, the so-called Quranists, are always thinking and nagging around on how the sectarians are away from the true path of God. What people don't usually realize is that, there can be some grave errors and mistakes among some of the Quranists themselves. And I think there are some Quranists, at least in this forum, who are more misled than the typical Sunnis.
So instead of always pointing fingers and accusing the traditional Muslims, we should fear for ourselves.
And about the articles of faith, I don't consider them as the 'articles of faith', but simply as the most important parts and duties of our deen that we need to carry out to be successful in the next life. Some may agree to it, and some may say that I have traditional influence over me. I say that let there be some traditional influence over me, as I think it is much better than the manifest misguidance of the extremely muddled Quran-alone Muslims.
Lastly, a quote from Bigmo
"Not everything in Tradition has to be questioned. If the shoe fits wear it."
bravo
Peace.
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After months of experimenting with this Quran-only form of Islam, listening to many different interpretations, I have come to the conclusion that Quran is actually meant to be followed in conjunction with Hadiths/in light of Islamic history. There is a good reason why early scholars did what they did. This movement, by it's contradictory nature, is bound to fail sooner or later.
I also like the analogy you give "a way of escaping from a horrible truth".
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Ah, if we could only be the leaders of the world, like how the followers of hadith are.....ooops
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The Quran is a Recitation - Quran means Recitation, I've seen people say it means something else but think about it it's a recitation and that's what the word means lol. I think the Quran is a book that may challenge - for want of a better word - intent. It challenges not so much the final outcome but how we start off. If your intent is sincere, you'll get there. If your intent is for this life only then you'll only get that.
It's also a bit like understanding Planet Earth and the Universe- people disagree in science (shocking I know!) does that mean we cannot understand the natural laws? No, we understand that this is a process.
After months of experimenting with this Quran-only form of Islam, listening to many different interpretations, I have come to the conclusion that Quran is actually meant to be followed in conjunction with Hadiths/in light of Islamic history. There is a good reason why early scholars did what they did. This movement, by it's contradictory nature, is bound to fail sooner or later.
I also like the analogy you give "a way of escaping from a horrible truth".
Are you Jewish but you accept the Quran? You have a menorah in your avatar along with Hebrew script. I hope you don't mind me asking some questions. Do you practice both things in the Quran and the Torah? How do you decide what you think does not fit with the Quran or Torah for that matter? Do you use one a criterion?
I would say that the scholars said and did a lot. The Quran warns of those who took Rabbis and Monks as God - I don't think this meant they prayed to them. LOL!
Hi jtc,
On the other hand you say that "all I want to do is live a good life to show God I am thankful for it." The second statement raises the question "Does it matter if the Quran is absolutely divine or not? Does it matter if the Hadith/Sunna should be followed?" My personal opinion is that your intention is what matters. You want to live a good life. My personal opinion is that the Quran tells you how to do that. It leaves somethings open for your own interpretation. I think this is an important attribute of the Quran. By leaving things open to interpretation it allows you to express your personal gratitude to God in your own way. Instead of someone telling you exactly how to do it. My personal opinion is that the Hadith/Sunna are there to give examples of how other people have understood what the Quran says. It doesn't mean that it is the definitive interpretation.
Good luck on your quest. If you find the answers please let us know as we all can learn from your journey.
Just my crazy thoughts,
JewishDude
peace Salam, Shalom, Peace peaceHi JewishDude,
Do you also practice with both the Torah and Quran? I'm intruiged to know how you practice... do you follow Shabbat for example? Pesach, Purim? I'd be really interested in knowing a bit more about your religious approach.
Also all this talk of people having different opinions and interpretations - if any of you know neo-Pagan religions, then you'll know the differences and disagreements that occur within the branch and within the religions. It has not lead to the demise of them but they sometimes embrace it. Others, however, do mock those with eclectic beliefs. I find this happens in many religions - I already mentioned the point about human nature.
If anyone's interested as well there are some Pagans now who do not completely reject the Quran. There is the idea that a Divine source has been guiding all people etc. So this is different from some of the polytheists described in the Quran. In fact, People of the book today, as well as those in the past, can be more rejecting of the Quran and thus the concept of God in the Quran than some people following Pagan or modern religions.
I, personally, find this interesting. It also reminds me that the Quran does not tell us to label people and use rigid demarcations etc.
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Hi Everyone,
Why do we always devolve the conversation into "how to do it right"? (I include myself in this). I think this is our weakest point as well. Traditionalists are in the mode of "how to do it right" and they attack us on this. We as a group need to transcend this notion of "doing it right" and focus on learning how to find the rituals (or possibly modifying them) to meet our needs.
I will offer an analogy from Judaism. In the Torah is says not to "boil a kid in its mothers milk". The talmud which is somewhat like hadith have turned this into "You shouldn't eat a cheeseburger!" Meat and dairy can't be eaten at the same meal. So no mashed potatoes with your steak because mashed potatoes have milk and butter in them. Hence the traditionalists have told Jews "How to do it right". And if Jews don't do it their way then they are wrong... and consequently Bad Jews. On the flip side there are some Reform Jews who ignore everything in the Law of Moses. They say that the interpretation of the Orthodox is wrong.
My thoughts are that we all exist along a spectrum from wanting nothing to do with Hadith to accepting Hadith fully. My guess is that there are lots of us who are "Hadith contemplators". We will accept a Hadith or practice because it is meaningful. We may modify the practice because it meaningful.
My argument is for the middle road. Quran is the authority but some traditional rituals or understandings may be useful. We should be able to choose for ourselves which rituals and understandings are useful but not consider them binding. This path will allow our conversations to be less "how to do it right" to more spiritual focus. We should also not let others attack us for being choosy about which Hadith or traditions we accept(if any) and those we reject (if any). This only divides and distracts us. Being accepting and inclusive will ultimately bring us to unity.
Just my crazy thoughts,
JewishDude
peace Salam, Shalom, Peace peace -
For all the explicit commands of the Quran (including TONS of self-reference), there isn't any command to discuss the 'true meaning' with other believers. I wonder why that is.....
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Has anyone here who was "born muslim" ever stopped to consider why they believe the Qur'an is the word of God with a sincere heart? It is my guess that the honest answer for most would only be "because my parents raised me to believe it was".
Peace James,
Red I did that.
I was born and brought up in traditional so called Muslims' house. After reading and trying to understand alQuraan for almost 8 years, I questioned to myself regarding alQuraan. Why should I believe it to be the Book of Allah, when everyone does the same about their religions and books. Why I am correct and they are wrong when we are in same boat?At this moment I decided to study all religious books and find the Truth. And when I was studying alQuraan, I got stuck on 223-24. It was a huge challenge for me that I could imagine. And I see it is very open for all to take this challenge and I never saw or heard of anyone tried this challenge and was successful. At that time, I came to know that alQuraan itself proves to be the word of Allah for me. And since then, I seek Allah's help and His permission on all things, and found Him always with me, alhamduliAllah hail
He has shown me 5156 that the purpose of my creation is to serve Him alone. No matter what He asks me to do, I have to do it the way He guides me. If I think of people, can they all be wrong? Then surely I am wrong. Because when Allah has selected me to guide from billions of people in the world, then why and how could I think of others, if they are right or wrong! Hence, I am able to understand and write about "jannat", "shahada", "sajda", "adam" and many more things.
Once I was in a state as you are in now and Allah has shown me 1094-95.
1094
1094 So if you are in doubt, about that which We have revealed to you, then ask those who have been reading alKitaab before you. The truth has certainly come to you from your Lord, so never be among the doubters.1095
1095 And never be of those who deny the signs of Allah and be among the losers.These are important points that I understood from the aayaat above.
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These aayaat showed me that there is a possibility to get a doubt on what Allah has revealed to us .
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We are told to ask people who read alKitaab before you if we are in doubt .
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The truth has certainly come to you from your Lord. This part clarifies that whatever you got from your Lord IS the truth, and what you get from me, or anyone else could not be the truth. So, you should understand it and not be among the doubters.
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Never be of those who deny the sings of Allah. We always have to remember and be careful that we should not deny the aayaat of Allah in any ways.
This is how I remain to be the servant of Allah alone, alhamduliAllah hail
May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path pr
mmKhan -
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My thoughts are that we all exist along a spectrum from wanting nothing to do with Hadith to accepting Hadith fully. My guess is that there are lots of us who are "Hadith contemplators". We will accept a Hadith or practice because it is meaningful. We may modify the practice because it meaningful.
My argument is for the middle road. Quran is the authority but some traditional rituals or understandings may be useful. We should be able to choose for ourselves which rituals and understandings are useful but not consider them binding. This path will allow our conversations to be less "how to do it right" to more spiritual focus. We should also not let others attack us for being choosy about which Hadith or traditions we accept(if any) and those we reject (if any). This only divides and distracts us. Being accepting and inclusive will ultimately bring us to unity.
Just my crazy thoughts,
JewishDude
peace Salam, Shalom, Peace peaceI agree with this message of co-existence. Allah may be guiding us all in different ways - because we are individuals - and what some people are doing right now, the way they are doing it, it may be acceptable to Him. Maybe because their intent is sincere. So that is what matters most in my opinion. That they believed out of love for Allah and sought knowledge and wisdom by His leave.
For all the explicit commands of the Quran (including TONS of self-reference), there isn't any command to discuss the 'true meaning' with other believers. I wonder why that is.....
I think that's a very good point. We can discuss but ultimately it says that God is the one who will guide and teach us. This keeps it simple and straightforward in my view.
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Supportpeacenotwar
I think that's a very good point. We can discuss but ultimately it says that God is the one who will guide and teach us. This keeps it simple and straightforward in my view.
Exactly. The ONLY place in the Quran which speaks of the observation of the truth of itself is 41/53. In that verse, Allah says the signs in the horizon and in their selves will show that it is the truth. Who in the world shares a horizon or a self? No one...so lets not worry about what people or 'authorities' say. Just follow your own signs.
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bravo
I agree 100% supportpeacenotwar!
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Hi Everyone,
Why do we always devolve the conversation into "how to do it right"? (I include myself in this). I think this is our weakest point as well. Traditionalists are in the mode of "how to do it right" and they attack us on this. We as a group need to transcend this notion of "doing it right" and focus on learning how to find the rituals (or possibly modifying them) to meet our needs.
I will offer an analogy from Judaism. In the Torah is says not to "boil a kid in its mothers milk". The talmud which is somewhat like hadith have turned this into "You shouldn't eat a cheeseburger!" Meat and dairy can't be eaten at the same meal. So no mashed potatoes with your steak because mashed potatoes have milk and butter in them. Hence the traditionalists have told Jews "How to do it right". And if Jews don't do it their way then they are wrong... and consequently Bad Jews. On the flip side there are some Reform Jews who ignore everything in the Law of Moses. They say that the interpretation of the Orthodox is wrong.
My thoughts are that we all exist along a spectrum from wanting nothing to do with Hadith to accepting Hadith fully. My guess is that there are lots of us who are "Hadith contemplators". We will accept a Hadith or practice because it is meaningful. We may modify the practice because it meaningful.
My argument is for the middle road. Quran is the authority but some traditional rituals or understandings may be useful. We should be able to choose for ourselves which rituals and understandings are useful but not consider them binding. This path will allow our conversations to be less "how to do it right" to more spiritual focus. We should also not let others attack us for being choosy about which Hadith or traditions we accept(if any) and those we reject (if any). This only divides and distracts us. Being accepting and inclusive will ultimately bring us to unity.
Just my crazy thoughts,
JewishDude
peace Salam, Shalom, Peace peaceOnce again very well said. In time this will be the way. As more and more people enter the movement it will balance out. Its still in its infancy something that we often forget.
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After months of experimenting with this Quran-only form of Islam, listening to many different interpretations, I have come to the conclusion that Quran is actually meant to be followed in conjunction with Hadiths/in light of Islamic history. There is a good reason why early scholars did what they did. This movement, by it's contradictory nature, is bound to fail sooner or later.
I also like the analogy you give "a way of escaping from a horrible truth".
Yeah but Sunni Islam is what got many of us here in the first place. You are right why early scholars did what they did but there is more to it than just rituals and halal and haram stuff. Its also about the state. An absolute monarchy ruled by an authoritative dictator. Something the Quran can never allow.
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Yeah but Sunni Islam is what got many of us here in the first place. You are right why early scholars did what they did but there is more to it than just rituals and halal and haram stuff. Its also about the state. An absolute monarchy ruled by an authoritative dictator. Something the Quran can never allow.
Apart from the fact that Sunni Islam uses very few of Quranic principles in its Sharia.Even its arkaan al-imaan (pillars of faith) adds something to the Quranic reference (4/136).
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Apart from the fact that Sunni Islam uses very few of Quranic principles in its Sharia.Even its arkaan al-imaan (pillars of faith) adds something to the Quranic reference (4/136).
I agree. There are challenges in Quranist Islam but I think its naive to compare that with Sectarian Islam. There are serious issues when we look at Sunni/Shia Islam. We must never forget that. And looking at Mali now and Tunisia and Egypt and Iraq and even Nigeria or Somalia we must remember that sectarian Islam has serious problems with it. A case can be made that at least too much diversity and differences of opinions is still much better than violence, intolerance and dictatorships and sectarian rivalries. Remember the Quran has no problems with differences (ikhtilaf) but has problems with seperations(iftiraq). Its when we allow differences to lead us to seperate from each other and create rival sects and start fighting each other that we get ourselves into trouble.
Anyways if you ask me I think that at lest Quranist Islam can give those who want a less ritualistic and sectarian Islam an option to be part of something rather than just hide from religion as many Muslims do because they can not stomach sectarian Islam.
I think that the push of democracy and modernity is going to make it hard for Sunni and Shia Islam to survive. Like you just said, Shariah law is a huge obstacle. The fact that Quranist Islam has no concept of apostasy law and religious coercion and offensive wars can not be ignored. These are all crucial when we talk about democracy and modernity. As time goes by the sectarian Islam will be even more on the wrong side of history.
There is no comparison between Quranist Islam and setarian islam when it comes to freedom. They are opposite extremes. Thats no small matter as the world is moving more and more towards more freedom and individual rights. Its only going to get more like that.
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Being Quran alone, for me, is based upon the pattern which we see in the historical evidence of all of God's monotheistic revealed religions.
Zorostrianism Original Revelation Gathas. Taught belief in God, a future last day and judgment, and the doing of what is right. Later extra scriptures were added and it's priests have changed the religion to be unrecognizable from the original teachings. I.E. Some now say that unless you are born to the Aryan Iranian race that you cannot be a Zorostrian.
Judiasm Original Revelation Torah. Taught belief in God, a future last day and judgment, and the doing of what is right. Later, oral traditions were added and the Torah itself has been altered. The prophet Jesus's mission and revelation addressed this issue! The prophet Jesus was against oral tradition and the alterations to the Torah.
Christianity Original Revelation Injeel. Taught belief in God, a future last day and judgment, and the doing of what is right. Later, Paul, or someone claiming to be Paul, created fictional narratives based partially on the true revelation of Jesus. Even later, Priests, created their own interpretation of the altered revelation. The mission of the prophet Muhammad seems to have been to combat the newly created false narratives about Jesus and the false oral traditons and Torah alterations that infected and corrupted the revelation of Moses.
Islam Original Revelation Quran. Taught belief in God, a future last day and judgment, and the doing of what is right. Later, Scholars, created and/or distorted the original teachings through oral traditions.
Based upon a historical analysis of open source and freely available information the only conclusion which I can draw from this is that every time God reveals His true religion to mankind it is shortly corrupted! Satan is always quick to attack revealed religion! Quran alone is, therefore, the only sure way to go!
There is additional data which exists if one looks closely at the teachings of the Hopi, the ancient Chinese "Way of Heaven", and many other religions which bear the marks of having been revealed by God but later corrupted.
Also, a little thought to chew on, in the book of Revelation we are told that two prophets, who have not yet died, will return to earth before the day of judgment. I have a feeling that this is true and that their mission will be to make the final correction to all revealed religions before the final Judgment.
Peace unto you!