Why i drink and eat during ramadhan

noshirk

Salaam
please see here http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604822.0

i disagree.

shahr=full moon ok
leylatou el qadr=night of (perfect) measure=equinox day=night where length of day equals length of night=day where sun rise in half distance between, the two machreq.
Ramadhan= periode of first rain after summer.

according to sourate el rum (30-1 and 30-2), quran was revealed just after defeat of rums (against persion) and before their victory. History tell us it is near year 617.

Astronomy tell us that autumn equinox of year 617 was, by coincidence, a full moon night. Moreover, moon was at iys perigee wich mean that it was what we call a supermoon.

For me, the proof is quite indiscutable.

Concerning fixing the lunar cycles to seasons, i accept the interpretation of brother ayman.

we don't have to take into acount the eventual 13 full moon between two autum equinox.
that would be meaning of word iddatou in verse 9-36 we asked to count only 12 full moons .

Quran says that nassiya (practiced by jews) is the false method (9-37).
it tells also that, some years, nassiya have the good counting.
that is an important indication. Jews are not always wrong.

So full moons have to be counted to 1 to 12 and the first shahr is the first after autum equinox.

Now, it is interesting to note that first full moon after autum equinox is always the day of jewish succot feast (even with their nassiya).
Succot is our first shahr haram. It is the one where saoum should occur.
from 19-26, saoum is spiritual retreat where we should not speak to humans.
phonetically, succot in arabic means silence.

for me, second and third shahr haram are also to be found in torah
the fourth one is the more complicated since jews lost it.
We have to find who is the nassara
it is, i think near the day where the zoroaster mithra was born.
Happy christmas dear brother pazuzu (even if jesus is a false prophet).

if i am wrong, please note that i have many coincidences and it is quran who astrayed me. ???

Peace

mmkhan

Salaam brother,

Please take a look at my post on Saum here, it says the same handshake

May Allah bless you and increase our knowledge and guide us on His path pr
mmKhan

noshirk

Salaam brother,

Please take a look at my post on Saum here, it says the same handshake

May Allah bless you and increase our knowledge and guide us on His path pr
mmKhan

salaam

Thank you bro

i would like to add another remark
i said
for me, second and third shahr haram are also to be found in torah

i accepted this conclusion because of word maaloumat.
2197 The Pilgrimage months are made known (MAALOUMAT). So whoever decides to perform the Pilgrimage therein, then there shall be no sexual approach, nor wickedness, nor baseless argument in the Pilgrimage. And any good that you do, God is aware of it; and bring prov

Hajj month are said to be known.
The question is what does mean God by known ?

see hadiths ? impossible.
See ancients ? impossible
ask priests ? impossible. My god cannot ask me such a thing.

the only remaining meaning for me is see what remained in my other other books.

Peace

es

Interesting thread. I have been listening to Surah Maryam a lot in the last few weeks, and I was thinking of this myself recently.

supportpeacenotwar

Interesting thread. I have been listening to Surah Maryam a lot in the last few weeks, and I was thinking of this myself recently.

Me too! I may have mentioned this in a post to someone. I came across the verses about saum for Maryam and considered some of the things that are mentioned here. I find it amazing that these verses continue to have this quality to them, the preservation - even though hadiths say plenty of things that have not entered the Quran. Subhan'Allah.

Thank you as well to noshirk and mmkhan - this is very helpful as I continue to explore this topic.

Salaam

es

Me too! I may have mentioned this in a post to someone. I came across the verses about saum for Maryam and considered some of the things that are mentioned here. I find it amazing that these verses continue to have this quality to them, the preservation - even though hadiths say plenty of things that have not entered the Quran. Subhan'Allah.

Thank you as well to noshirk and mmkhan - this is very helpful as I continue to explore this topic.

Salaam

I am finding some uncanny similarities between us.

supportpeacenotwar

I am finding some uncanny similarities between us.

Hmm... you may be onto something, could it be a sign? separated at birth...?

es

Hmm... you may be onto something, could it be a sign? separated at birth...?

Yes, indeed. You could be my better looking, wittier twin!

mmkhan

salaam

Thank you bro

i would like to add another remark
i said
for me, second and third shahr haram are also to be found in torah

i accepted this conclusion because of word maaloumat.
2197 The Pilgrimage months are made known (MAALOUMAT). So whoever decides to perform the Pilgrimage therein, then there shall be no sexual approach, nor wickedness, nor baseless argument in the Pilgrimage. And any good that you do, God is aware of it; and bring prov

Hajj month are said to be known.
The question is what does mean God by known ?

see hadiths ? impossible.
See ancients ? impossible
ask priests ? impossible. My god cannot ask me such a thing.

the only remaining meaning for me is see what remained in my other other books.

Peace

Salaam James,

You are welcome brother.

I will still be -X on this part as I still believe that Tauraat is not for me, so sorry, I cannot comment on this right now.

May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path pr
mmKhan

mmkhan

Thank you as well to noshirk and mmkhan - this is very helpful as I continue to explore this topic.

Salaam SPNW,

You are very welcome handshake

May Allah bless you and guide us on His path pr
mmKhan

noshirk

Salaam James,

You are welcome brother.

I will still be -X on this part as I still believe that Tauraat is not for me, so sorry, I cannot comment on this right now.

May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path pr
mmKhan

Salaam brother

when i compare quran to torah, there is no doubt for me that torah was corrupted, sometimes deeply.
However, torah is still someway a guidance (5-4
548 And We have sent down to you the Book with the truth, authenticating what is between your hands of the Book and superseding it. So judge between them by what God has sent down, and do not follow their desires from what has come to you of the truth. For each of you We have made laws, and a structure; and if God had willed, He would have made you all one nation, but He tests you with what He has given you; so strive to do good. To God you will return all of you, and He will inform you regarding that in which you dispute.

Quran has the destiny to prevail on all religion of God, wich is islam (islamic islam, jewish islam, christian islam and zoroaster islam and ..?.).
(youdhirihou ala el deen kollohou 9-33 )

Now, studying torah is a very important thing in understanding quran. Studying torah shows us, by comparison with the sealed scripture in wich there is no doubt, how humans and priest pervert words of god.
Some quranic verses cannot be understood without torah. Quran, with few words, corrects torah. You cannot understand correction if you don't know what was wrong.
here an example

The ridiculous hadith pointed in this thread is used by schorlars as a tafssir (interpretaion) of verse
3369 O you who believe, do not be like those who harmed Moses, but then God cleared him of all they said, and he was honorable before God.

according to a coranist tafsir of this ayat (the funny french cheikh dukhani), the correct tafssir of this ayat is

1 -in old testament, Moses was forbidden from promise land because he striked the rock with a staff instead of shounting on it. Quran declare that Moses was asked to strike (see 2-60;7-160)
2 - Moses was accused in the old testament to have asked for a fraticidal killing after the episode of the gold calf. Quran precises that Moses, after that his anger was calmed, released the main guilty (20-97)
3 - Old testament mention that Moses killed a man intentionnaly. Quran precise that it was not and that moses made only a punch 28-15

remark I am not sure that all is said in old testatment. however it is a jewish and a christian belief.

peace

Quran points many times to torah as a worthfull book to read.
and when Quran says "maaloumat", then it can mean that the quran guaranty that the corresponding part in torah is not corrupted.

for me, torah is the second best book in islam.
it is there, for example, for me, that we can find the true issa. Even if jewish and christians who have the book rejects him blindly.

Peace

mmkhan

Salaam brother

when i compare quran to torah, there is no doubt for me that torah was corrupted, sometimes deeply.
However, torah is still someway a guidance (5-4
548 And We have sent down to you the Book with the truth, authenticating what is between your hands of the Book and superseding it. So judge between them by what God has sent down, and do not follow their desires from what has come to you of the truth. For each of you We have made laws, and a structure; and if God had willed, He would have made you all one nation, but He tests you with what He has given you; so strive to do good. To God you will return all of you, and He will inform you regarding that in which you dispute.

Quran has the destiny to prevail on all religion of God, wich is islam (islamic islam, jewish islam, christian islam and zoroaster islam and ..?.).
(youdhirihou ala el deen kollohou 9-33 )

Now, studying torah is a very important thing in understanding quran. Studying torah shows us, by comparison with the sealed scripture in wich there is no doubt, how humans and priest pervert words of god.
Some quranic verses cannot be understood without torah. Quran, with few words, corrects torah. You cannot understand correction if you don't know what was wrong.
here an example
Quran points many times to torah as a worthfull book to read.
and when Quran says "maaloumat", then it can mean that the quran guaranty that the corresponding part in torah is not corrupted.

for me, torah is the second best book in islam.
it is there, for example, for me, that we can find the true issa. Even if jewish and christians who have the book rejects him blindly.

Peace

Salaam brother,

I have a different understanding on this subject.

543
543 But how is it that they come to you for judgement while they have the Tauraat, in which is the judgement of Allah? Then they turn away, after that; but those are not believers.

This aayat confirms that still Tauraat is in original form and in it is the judgement of Allah available. And please note that we are not asked to judge THEM who has Tauraat with them. Them here is surely not referring to us.

Furthermore, next aayat also confirms the Tauraat authenticity.

544
544 Indeed, We sent down the Tauraat, in which is guidance and light. The prophets who submitted judge by it for the Hadoos, as did the rabbis and scholars by that with which they were protectors of the Book of Allah, and they were witnesses thereto. So do not fear the people but fear Me, and do not exchange My verses for a small price. And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed ? then it is those who are the disbelievers.

AlTauraat still has guidance and light in it. The prophets still judge with it for the Hadoos... This clearly shows me that Tauraat is for Hadoos not for me. And alQuraan is a complete and sufficient Book for me, so, no other Books are required. And Hadoo also don't need any other Book except alTauraat.

Hope you understand what I am trying to say, inshaAllah.

May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path pr
mmKhan

noshirk

Salaam brother,

I have a different understanding on this subject.

543
543 But how is it that they come to you for judgement while they have the Tauraat, in which is the judgement of Allah? Then they turn away, after that; but those are not believers.

This aayat confirms that still Tauraat is in original form and in it is the judgement of Allah available. And please note that we are not asked to judge THEM who has Tauraat with them. Them here is surely not referring to us.

Furthermore, next aayat also confirms the Tauraat authenticity.

544
544 Indeed, We sent down the Tauraat, in which is guidance and light. The prophets who submitted judge by it for the Hadoos, as did the rabbis and scholars by that with which they were protectors of the Book of Allah, and they were witnesses thereto. So do not fear the people but fear Me, and do not exchange My verses for a small price. And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed ? then it is those who are the disbelievers.

AlTauraat still has guidance and light in it. The prophets still judge with it for the Hadoos... This clearly shows me that Tauraat is for Hadoos not for me. And alQuraan is a complete and sufficient Book for me, so, no other Books are required. And Hadoo also don't need any other Book except alTauraat.

Hope you understand what I am trying to say, inshaAllah.

May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path pr
mmKhan

Salaam Brother

this a selection of verses that shows that jews changed torah (2-59,2-75,2-77,2-79,2-146,3-78,4-46,5-13,5-15,5-41,6-91,7-162)

now, we have to agree on one thing. God has one religion and only one.
Islam is faith of Abraham (2-130 ; 2-135 ; 3-95 ; 4-125 ; 6-161; 16-123)
Abraham was Muslim (3-67). Also Isaac, Ismael, Jacob and ? ASBAT ? (2-140). Asbat are the jewish tribes (7-160).
Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Ismael (2-132) , Salomon and others (27-42), Issa and his apostles (3-52 ; 5-111).

Muslims is a the name given to "believers" by Abraham (22-7.

There is even people who told Muhammad that they were Muslimouns before reading Quran (28-52 and 28-53)

on the other hand, Quran is only the sealed version of el Kitab (mohammad khatim el anbiya).
the kitab word is applied on all sendings of God. Outo el kitab is used for all who received words of God.

it is also forbidden to make distinction between prophets (4-150 to 4-152). Whe have to think about islam as a whole history and not have to forget the huge teaching of our teacher about what human did with his words. If God consacrated a great part of his quran to history of old messengers it is not just to fill quran with stories (12-111).

please read also 2-285 where it said that we have to believe in what was sent before without distinguish between messengers.

i am not saying that we have to follow torah. But i am just saying that it is an important part of the teaching of our God. Torah is the falsified teachnings and it is just why it is so interesting to read it and to compare with the no doubt version of el kitab.

Peace

supportpeacenotwar

Yes, indeed. You could be my better looking, wittier twin!

Aww, shucks. You would be the very modest one. )

Salaam SPNW,

You are very welcome handshake

May Allah bless you and guide us on His path pr
mmKhan

May Allah bless you too and guide all the believers, those yet to believe along the straight path.

Aamer

I agree that there is more than one way of fasting. And I have done a three day no talking fast (certainly more challenging, for me anyway, than a no food/water fast). However, how on Earth do you guys get around the capitalized part below. God says we can eat and drink UNTIL the break of dawn. Then we must fast until the night. This clearly indicates that eating and drinking is not allowed from break of dawn until night. If that's not the case, why would God even mention you can eat and drink in the night. Let's put two and two together, do we need every little bit of common sense spelled out for us? This seems like another case of rebel new age Muslims rebelling against everything the Sunnis and Shia do. I don't take their foolish Hadith as scripture either. But let's maintain a little common sense and not rebel against every ritual they practice. These rituals are much older than Prophet Muhammad and we must respect them. Keep it real my brothers and sisters. Don't go into Hippy Rebel Muslim land. That's as dangerous as following Hadith. Because you're just making up your own rules too just as they did. Salat & fasting were not new concepts at the time of Muhammad. People already knew what they were and how to do them. Just my two cents. Peace!

Aamer

It has been made lawful for you during the night of fasting to approach your women sexually. They are a garment for you and you are a garment for them. God knows that you used to betray your souls so He has accepted your repentance, and forgiven you; now you may approach them and seek what God has written for you. And you may eat and drink UNTIL THE WHITE THREAD IS DISTINCT FROM THE BLACK THREAD OF DAWN; then you shall complete the fast until night; and do not approach them while you are devoted in the temples. These are the boundaries of God, so do not transgress them. It is thus that God clarifies His revelations to the people who they may be righteous.

Timur

Peace Aamer,

your translation is not appropriate. There is no "can" or "may" in the original. It is simply an imperative

2187 And eat and drink until the white thread is distinct from the black thread of dawn

Hence your conclusion is not compelling.

Peace be with you.

Aamer

Peace Aamer,

your translation is not appropriate. There is no "can" or "may" in the original. It is simply an imperative

2187 And eat and drink until the white thread is distinct from the black thread of dawn

Hence your conclusion is not compelling.

Peace be with you.

How does that change anything? It still says "until". It really doesn't change the meaning. Please explain your point.

mmkhan

Peace Aamer,

your translation is not appropriate. There is no "can" or "may" in the original. It is simply an imperative

2187 And eat and drink until the white thread is distinct from the black thread of dawn

Hence your conclusion is not compelling.

Peace be with you.

Salaam Aamer and Timur,

There is no mention of "eat and drink" in this aayat. Please take a look at 6145 and 2236.

6145
6145 Say "I find not in the message received by me by inspiration any forbidden to be eaten by one who wishes to eat it, unless it be dead meat, or blood poured forth, or the flesh of swine,- for it is an abomination - or, what is impious, on which a name has been invoked, other than Allah's". But, if a person is forced by necessity, without wilful disobedience, nor transgressing due limits,- thy Lord is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

You can see a different word for eat in 6145.

2236
2236 And the camels and cattle We have appointed for you as among the symbols of Allah ; for you therein is good. So mention the name of Allah upon them when lined up; and when they are on their sides, then eat from them and feed the needy and the beggar. Thus have We subjected them to you that you may be grateful.

They have translated here both the words ta3aam as feed and kuloo as eat. How can Allah command us to eat from animals when they fell on their sides. As far as I know, no one in the world start eating that animal when they fell on ground on their sides. Hence, kuloo does not mean eat. ta3am is the word used for eating.

May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path pr
mmKhan

supportpeacenotwar

I agree that there is more than one way of fasting. And I have done a three day no talking fast (certainly more challenging, for me anyway, than a no food/water fast). However, how on Earth do you guys get around the capitalized part below. God says we can eat and drink UNTIL the break of dawn. Then we must fast until the night. This clearly indicates that eating and drinking is not allowed from break of dawn until night. If that's not the case, why would God even mention you can eat and drink in the night. Let's put two and two together, do we need every little bit of common sense spelled out for us? This seems like another case of rebel new age Muslims rebelling against everything the Sunnis and Shia do. I don't take their foolish Hadith as scripture either. But let's maintain a little common sense and not rebel against every ritual they practice. These rituals are much older than Prophet Muhammad and we must respect them. Keep it real my brothers and sisters. Don't go into Hippy Rebel Muslim land. That's as dangerous as following Hadith. Because you're just making up your own rules too just as they did. Salat & fasting were not new concepts at the time of Muhammad. People already knew what they were and how to do them. Just my two cents. Peace!

Not at all, not in my case. First of all, I don't see why you need to use language like "new age Muslims" and "hippy rebel". In fact, I have defended those who partially follow hadith in accordance with the Quran, because they may be sincere. Only Allah - our Creator - can judge our sincerity, and we know it but others don't really fully appreciate it. I have found some people, in fact they are praised by other people following Quran alone, rejecting all those who follow hadiths in anyway and saying we cannot even be "friends" with them, whatever this may mean to each individual. It's very unhelpful and doesn't seem to fit at all the qualities of a believers that our Creator is constantly guiding us towards.

How much is that discussed?

How much do people following Quran alone follow through with the idea that the practices of the West are just as much against the Quran as those of the East? I've come across some people saying that the West is more blessed because its not like the "Muslim East". So, I guess every poor country is being punished and every rich country is being blessed. Pharoah comes to mind when people talk like this.I'm not saying you are, of course, it's just a point about general behaviour that is related to how we discuss.

Some people questioning how we should fast and offering alternatives is FAR from rebelling against Hadith. If that individual is sincere, then they are trying to find a way to serve our Creator in the best way.

Isn't this what it's all about, our Creator? Sometimes, I just feel this is missing sometimes in the discussion here. I mean we don't need to go overboard, but if we don't keep that focus then we may start to see Islam and the Quran as something very human rather than Divine guidance and very 'this world' rather than spiritual and a connection to our Creator and Sustainer.

May Allah be glorified above all they associate with Him.