Hot/"ramadan" Answer

ayman

Peace Danish,

Please claify what does "restricted full-moons" mean? What has trading and traveling got to do with "restricted full-moons"?

The restriction full-moons is counting a period spanning four full-moons starting with the full-moon of scorching heat/"ramadan". During that period, hunting wildlife is restricted and the gathering of the "7ajj"/debate takes place.

Chapter 106 addresses the people of the prophet. They were making two trips one in "sayf" and another in "shetaa". Those cannot be the same times as the time of "7ajj" where they have to be present (not traveling) so that they can conduct their business. More confirmation that people worked all year so that they can sell their products at the "7ajj"/debate is in 2827 where hiring is done for the purpose of the "7ajj"/debate.

I hope this helps clarify things.

Peace,

Ayman

marie

Peace brother Ayman, all,

Allah says "The count of the shuhoori with God is twelve shahran..." ,
if "shahr" = the moon, some years have 13 full moons
Question about article "What is Religion?"

I disagree with your understanding about the word meeqat in 7142, another word with the same root is used in 4103 (kitab mawqoot/the timed book)
In 7142, we read "fatamma meeqaturabbihi arbaAAeena laylatan" doesn't mean that "meeqat" indicates only the end of a period.

The complete term would take forty nights = fatamma meeqaturabbihi arbaAAeena laylatan

meeqat = 40 nights (a period)

For me alahilat/new moon or crescent indicates the begenning and the end of the four restricted shahr (aljajj) among the twelve months in a year (936)

I don't find any quranic evidence that "alqamar/the moon" = shahr.

Maybe 584 brings an additionnal information about the word "shahr"

If he cannot find any, then he shall fast two consecutive months (shahrayni mutatabiAAayni) before any sexual contact between them. If he cannot, then he shall feed sixty poor people. That is so you would believe in God and His messenger. And these are the limits set by God. The disbelievers have incurred a painful retribution.

"shahrayni mutatabiAAayni/two consecutive shahr" and "to feed sixty poor people" is a coincidence or not?

I don't mean that shahr = 30 days but 584 can clarifiy the length of the month.

In 2184, should we understand that for those who can do so but with difficulty, then to feed the same number of indigents than the number of days of abstinence (shahr ramadhan)?

1 day of abstinence = to feed 1 indigent

2 days of abstinence = 2 indigents

...

A few number of days. But, if any of you is sick or is traveling, the number of days should be made up later. For those who can go through Abstinence only with hardship, there is compensation, the feeding of an indigent. Any additional charity will mean additional reward. However, if you knew better, the training course of Abstinence is good for you.

Looking for your thoughts

Thanks

Marie

hafeez_kazi

peace all.

In SULTANATE OF OMAN (MUSCAT) the festival of KHAREEF is celeberated from 15TH JULY TO 14TH AUGUST, every year. Many visitors come from neighbouring countries like Dubai, Bahrain, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait etc.

I do not know why the Omanis do not follow the Islamic calendar, but follow the Christian calendar.

thanks.

ayman

Peace sister Marie, all,

Allah says "The count of the shuhoori with God is twelve shahran..." ,
if "shahr" = the moon, some years have 13 full moons
Question about article "What is Religion?"

We should only count 12 even in the years where there are 13. Hence, we should simply not count the 13th moon. The difference between absolute number ("3adad") and count ("3idat") was explained in more details in the article. Please go over those details again and let me know if there is anything that specifically requires more clarification.

I disagree with your understanding about the word meeqat in 7142, another word with the same root is used in 4103 (kitab mawqoot/the timed book)
In 7142, we read "fatamma meeqaturabbihi arbaAAeena laylatan" doesn't mean that "meeqat" indicates only the end of a period.

It doesn't mean only the start of a period either. So we agree that it could mean EITHER end of a period OR start of a period.

The complete term would take forty nights = fatamma meeqaturabbihi arbaAAeena laylatan

meeqat = 40 nights (a period)

That is a perfect example of "meeqat" used to describe the END of a period. In this case, the end of a 40 night period. It is IMPOSSBILE to time a 40 day period with the "hilal" as a start and at the end. So how was "hilal" a timing device for Moses? It is a timing device because the extra 10 days is EXACTLY how long extra it takes for two consecutive full-moons to reach the "hilal" stage again. Hence, Like us Moses used the "hilal" as a timing device.

Remember, The God didn't just make up special timing devices for the 1400 year old Arabs. The same logical principles and timing devices were applied by previous messengers.

For me alahilat/new moon or crescent indicates the begenning and the end of the four restricted shahr (aljajj) among the twelve months in a year (936)

936 doesn't mention "ahilat" so you must be refering to the wrong verse.

I don't find any quranic evidence that "alqamar/the moon" = shahr.

What do you think "shahr" means? How can we witness a "shahr"?

Maybe 584 brings an additionnal information about the word "shahr"

If he cannot find any, then he shall fast two consecutive months (shahrayni mutatabiAAayni) before any sexual contact between them. If he cannot, then he shall feed sixty poor people. That is so you would believe in God and His messenger. And these are the limits set by God. The disbelievers have incurred a painful retribution.

"shahrayni mutatabiAAayni/two consecutive shahr" and "to feed sixty poor people" is a coincidence or not?

I don't mean that shahr = 30 days but 584 can clarifiy the length of the month.

In 2184, should we understand that for those who can do so but with difficulty, then to feed the same number of indigents than the number of days of abstinence (shahr ramadhan)?

1 day of abstinence = to feed 1 indigent

2 days of abstinence = 2 indigents

...

A few number of days. But, if any of you is sick or is traveling, the number of days should be made up later. For those who can go through Abstinence only with hardship, there is compensation, the feeding of an indigent. Any additional charity will mean additional reward. However, if you knew better, the training course of Abstinence is good for you.

Firstly, 2184 doesn't say how many indigents to feed. From the Arabic original and even the English translation you provided, it seems like it is feeding just ONE indigent for the 10 days (i.e., 10 days of abstinence = feed 1 indigent)

Abstaining for the period of two consecutive full moons means abstaining for ONE full-moon cycle (i.e., 1 day of abstinence = feeding of 2 indigents).

Secondly, please see 589 where feeding 10 indigents is equivalent to abstaining for 3 days.

So here we have 1 day of abstinence = 3.33 indigents!

Hence, indigents and days of abstinence are not the same and their ratio depends on what it is we are compensating for.

I hope this was useful.

Peace and all best wishes,

Ayman

marie

Peace brother Ayman, all,

Thanks for your patience and understanding.

Peace sister Marie, all,

Allah says "The count of the shuhoori with God is twelve shahran..." ,
if "shahr" = the moon, some years have 13 full moons
Question about article "What is Religion?"

We should only count 12 even in the years where there are 13. Hence, we should simply not count the 13th moon. The difference between absolute number ("3adad") and count ("3idat") was explained in more details in the article. Please go over those details again and let me know if there is anything that specifically requires more clarification.

Maybe I'm wrong but I disagree with you and I think that 936 is a proof that the word "sha-hr" doesn't mean the full moon because we can't count 12 full moon every year. I respect your view and as I already said it, I consider "alqamar" as the full moon which becomes through stages like an old curved sheath (3639).

I disagree with your understanding about the word meeqat in 7142, another word with the same root is used in 4103 (kitab mawqoot/the timed book)
In 7142, we read "fatamma meeqaturabbihi arbaAAeena laylatan" doesn't mean that "meeqat" indicates only the end of a period.

It doesn't mean only the start of a period either. So we agree that it could mean EITHER end of a period OR start of a period.

What is said in 7142 is not a good example to solve our problem, Allah didn't appoint for Moses a specified sha-hr completed with ten but only forty nights whatever the stage of the moon.

About hilal (new moon or crescent), I consider it both the start and the end of a period or the end and the start of a period

sha-hr 12........................sha-hr 1..............................sha-hr 2.............
---------------->hilal1--------------------> Hilal2----------------------->Hilal 3

For example Hilal 1 is the end of the 12nd sha-hr and the start of the first sha-hr

Hilal 2 is the end of the first sha-hr and the start of the second sha-hr

Hilal 1 and 2 are the start and the end of the first sha-hr.

I don't find any quranic evidence that "alqamar/the moon" = shahr.

What do you think "shahr" means? How can we witness a "shahr"?

This is a good question and I will try to answer it insha'Allah.

We read
Shahru ramadana (2185)

Inna AAiddata (the count) alshshuhoori AAinda Allahi ithna AAashara (12) shahran (936)

minha arbaAAatun (Four of these twelve sha-hr) hurumun (are restricted) (936)

Yas-aloonaka AAani al-ahillati qul hiya mawaqeetu lilnnasi waalhajji (2189)

"al-ahillati" are a timing mechanism for 1) the people as well as for 2) Alhajj.

"Alhajju" ashhurun maAAloomatun (which have been appointed) (2197) which correspond to the four restricted ashhurun.

"al-ahillati" are a timing mechanism for the twelve sha-hr.

In 2185 we are told "whoever of you obseve/witness alshsha-hra, then let him abstain it"

"alshsha-hra" refers to "shahru ramadana/the period of ramadan", I prefer to use a period for the word "sha-hr" instead of a month or cycle of moon.

There are twelve periods per year which have a start and an end

When I observe a period of ramadan, I have to abstain it; to abstain this period which is one period among the twelve periods in the year.

How to determine the start and the end of any period among the tewelve periods, the response is provided in 2189.

We are not asked to abstain the full moon or the new moon or the moon but a period of ramadan.

Allah didn't ask us to abstain 10 days (it is only guessing work) but to abstain a period of ramadan.

A few number of days. But, if any of you is sick or is traveling, the number of days should be made up later. For those who can go through Abstinence only with hardship, there is compensation, the feeding of an indigent. Any additional charity will mean additional reward. However, if you knew better, the training course of Abstinence is good for you.

Abstaining for the period of two consecutive full moons means abstaining for ONE full-moon cycle (i.e., 1 day of abstinence = feeding of 2 indigents).

I disagree "shahrayni mutatabiAAayni" in 584 correspond to two periods among the twelve periods in the year.

For the moment I don't adhere to the meaning of ramadan as extreme heat" and I lean towards early autumn. I think a period of ramadan is the first period of the year and occurs during the first season.

Maybe I'm wrong but it is simple to abstain during early automn than extreme heat; "Allah wants to bring you ease and not to bring you hardship"(2185).

The God knows best

Marie

ayman

Peace sister Marie, all,

Maybe I'm wrong but I disagree with you and I think that 936 is a proof that the word "sha-hr" doesn't mean the full moon because we can't count 12 full moon every year.

It doesn't matter how many full-moons there are in a year, we are told to only count 12 full moons. This would automatically adjust the cycle every three years since every three years we would get a year with 13 full moons.

I respect your view and as I already said it, I consider "alqamar" as the full moon which becomes through stages like an old curved sheath (3639).

This is impossible because it is not just the "full moon" that swims in an orbit" in 2133 but the moon in all its phases does.

What is said in 7142 is not a good example to solve our problem, Allah didn't appoint for Moses a specified sha-hr completed with ten but only forty nights whatever the stage of the moon.

Every sign in the great reading is a good example, especially 7142 where the term "meeqat" is used. We KNOW that "crescents" are used as "mawaqeet". Moses must have used the "crescent" too because the crescents are the timing devices made by The God for ALL people and this was not a special invention for the Arabs.

About hilal (new moon or crescent), I consider it both the start and the end of a period or the end and the start of a period

sha-hr 12........................sha-hr 1..............................sha-hr 2.............
---------------->hilal1--------------------> Hilal2----------------------->Hilal 3

For example Hilal 1 is the end of the 12nd sha-hr and the start of the first sha-hr

Hilal 2 is the end of the first sha-hr and the start of the second sha-hr

Hilal 1 and 2 are the start and the end of the first sha-hr.

According to 7142, it is IMPOSSIBLE to do timing/"meeqat" of a 40 day period with crescent/"hilal" BOTH at the start and at the end. You have to choose either start or end. Hence, crescent/"ahilat" are used to time EITHER the start OR the end of a period but not BOTH.

What do you think "shahr" means? How can we witness a "shahr"?

This is a good question and I will try to answer it insha'Allah.

We read
Shahru ramadana (2185)

Inna AAiddata (the count) alshshuhoori AAinda Allahi ithna AAashara (12) shahran (936)

minha arbaAAatun (Four of these twelve sha-hr) hurumun (are restricted) (936)

Yas-aloonaka AAani al-ahillati qul hiya mawaqeetu lilnnasi waalhajji (2189)

"al-ahillati" are a timing mechanism for 1) the people as well as for 2) Alhajj.

"Alhajju" ashhurun maAAloomatun (which have been appointed) (2197) which correspond to the four restricted ashhurun.

"al-ahillati" are a timing mechanism for the twelve sha-hr.

It is IMPOSSIBLE for the crescents to a be timing mechanisms for 12 anything because there are in REALITY 24-26 crescents/"ahilat" in a year. Remember "ahila(t)"/crescents mean both the widening crescents and the thinning crescents.

In 2185 we are told "whoever of you obseve/witness alshsha-hra, then let him abstain it"

"alshsha-hra" refers to "shahru ramadana/the period of ramadan", I prefer to use a period for the word "sha-hr" instead of a month or cycle of moon.

There are twelve periods per year which have a start and an end

When I observe a period of ramadan, I have to abstain it; to abstain this period which is one period among the twelve periods in the year.

How to determine the start and the end of any period among the tewelve periods, the response is provided in 2189.

"Period" is not the dictionary meaning of "shahr", so we must have very strong evidence from the great reading to support that it means "period".

I looked in 2189 but I didn't find any answer on how we can determine 12 periods using the 24-26 crescents/"ahila(t)" as timing devices.

Could you please kindly translate "shahr" as "period" instead of leaving it as "shahr" and let us know how we can determine the start and end of any "period" among the twelve "periods" using the 24-26 crescents/"ahila(t)" in a year.

We are not asked to abstain the full moon or the new moon or the moon but a period of ramadan.

Allah didn't ask us to abstain 10 days (it is only guessing work) but to abstain a period of ramadan.

Sister Marie, you criticize but do not tell us what the period of "ramadan" or abstinence is. It is always better to provide an alternative when one criticizes something.

Please tell us how long is the period of abstinence.

I disagree "shahrayni mutatabiAAayni" in 584 correspond to two periods among the twelve periods in the year.

Please tell us what those mysterious "periods" are.

For the moment I don't adhere to the meaning of ramadan as extreme heat" and I lean towards early autumn. I think a period of ramadan is the first period of the year and occurs during the first season.

Maybe I'm wrong but it is simple to abstain during early automn than extreme heat; "Allah wants to bring you ease and not to bring you hardship"(2185).

Sister, please translate the word "ramadan" for us. We have to abstain according to the command. We can't know the command without knowing the meaning.

Thanks and all best wishes and peace,

Ayman

marie

Peace brother Ayman,

It doesn't matter how many full-moons there are in a year, we are told to only count 12 full moons. This would automatically adjust the cycle every three years since every three years we would get a year with 13 full moons.

Personnaly I understand from 936 that there are 12 fixed periods per years not 11 or 13 periods and I think it doesn't imply that we have to only count 12 sha-hr/12 full moons according to your reasoning.

I respect your view and as I already said it, I consider "alqamar" as the full moon which becomes through stages like an old curved sheath (3639).

This is impossible because it is not just the "full moon" that swims in an orbit" in 2133 but the moon in all its phases does.

I did not say it is just the "full moon" that swims in an orbit. The phases of the moon/full moon is the consequence of this movement... That seems logical when Allah speaks about the sun it is not a partial sun, idem for the moon.

For me I distinguish the full moon (alqamar) and its phases in the light of 3639 and they are two distinct things.

Every sign in the great reading is a good example, especially 7142 where the term "meeqat" is used. We KNOW that "crescents" are used as "mawaqeet". Moses must have used the "crescent" too because the crescents are the timing devices made by The God for ALL people and this was not a special invention for the Arabs.

I disagree, this is your own deduction not supported by the quran, one can count 40 nights without using any crescent. Don't forget the sun, we can use it to count the number of days and years. Allah doesn't specify the sha-hr for moses, only 40 nights and the sun is sufficient for this task 40 sunsets for 40 nights.

It is IMPOSSIBLE for the crescents to a be timing mechanisms for 12 anything because there are in REALITY 24-26 crescents/"ahilat" in a year. Remember "ahila(t)"/crescents mean both the widening crescents and the thinning crescents.

This is what is said in 2189. alahillat are a timing mechanism for 1) the people and as well as for 2) alhajj.
Alhajj is in the periods (ash-hurun) which have been appointed = the four restricted) (2197)
and I consider "sha-hr ramadan" as the first period of the four retricted period. Consequetly, alahillat are a timing mechanism for the period of ramadan.

Some years have 13 full moons doesn't imply that there are 13 period per year. I try only to follow the instruction given in 2189, alahillat and not the full moon which are a timing mechanism for the four restricted period and also for the first restricted period= the period of ramadan.

"Period" is not the dictionary meaning of "shahr", so we must have very strong evidence from the great reading to support that it means "period".

Let us be patient to verify this meaning in the light of the quran.

Sister Marie, you criticize but do not tell us what the period of "ramadan" or abstinence is. It is always better to provide an alternative when one criticizes something
.

Early automn according to the preservation of land-game (the hemisphere north).

Please tell us how long is the period of abstinence.

This period is between two new moons (hilal), in 2004 the period of early automn (ramadan) start from 15 october november till 13 november.

Sister, please translate the word "ramadan" for us. We have to abstain according to the command. We can't know the command without knowing the meaning.

extreme heat, rain that comes just before autumn, the period ending summer and begining autumn.

Allah knows best

Marie

ayman

Peace sister Marie,

Thank you for your response.

It doesn't matter how many full-moons there are in a year, we are told to only count 12 full moons. This would automatically adjust the cycle every three years since every three years we would get a year with 13 full moons.

Personnaly I understand from 936 that there are 12 fixed periods per years not 11 or 13 periods and I think it doesn't imply that we have to only count 12 sha-hr/12 full moons according to your reasoning.

In other words, you don't see the difference between absolute number "3adad" and what The God told us to count "3idat" out of that "3adad". In this case, you have a major problem sister because there aren't exactly 12 crescents/"hilal" or 12 periods between 2 "hilal" per year and there are in fact 25 crescents on average. The period between each two consecutive "hilal" is either about 3 days (between the thinning and the widening "hilals") or 25 days (between the widening and the thining "hilals"). Hence, there are in fact about 24 "between 2 "hilal"" periods in a year.

This is impossible because it is not just the "full moon" that swims in an orbit" in 2133 but the moon in all its phases does.

I did not say it is just the "full moon" that swims in an orbit.

So you are admitting that when The God says "al-qamar" swims in an orbit, He means not just the full-moon. I hope that you can clearly see that you are contradicting your earlier statement that "qamar" just means "full-moon".

The phases of the moon/full moon is the consequence of this movement... That seems logical when Allah speaks about the sun it is not a partial sun, idem for the moon.

You can't say phases of the full-moon. The full-moon only has one phase by definition. The indisputable fact is that "moon/qamar" is not the same as "full-moon/shahr". Like "al-qamar"/the moon, when the sun has a partial or full eclipse it is still the same "sun" that The God speaks about and it didn't cease to exist.

For me I distinguish the full moon (alqamar) and its phases in the light of 3639 and they are two distinct things.

3639 doesn't make such distinction. In fact, in 3639 ALL the phases of the moon are "qamar" and even the "qamar" is LIKE an old curved sheath.

Every sign in the great reading is a good example, especially 7142 where the term "meeqat" is used. We KNOW that "crescents" are used as "mawaqeet". Moses must have used the "crescent" too because the crescents are the timing devices made by The God for ALL people and this was not a special invention for the Arabs.

I disagree, this is your own deduction not supported by the quran, one can count 40 nights without using any crescent. Don't forget the sun, we can use it to count the number of days and years. Allah doesn't specify the sha-hr for moses, only 40 nights and the sun is sufficient for this task 40 sunsets for 40 nights.

You are missing the point. The link is provided by the word "meeqat". It is "ahila(t)" that are "mawaqeet". As far as I know, the sun is never described as "meeqat/mawaqeet".

Moreover, if one uses the "hilal" for timing as The God told us, then the count becomes much simpler because one doesn't have to keep track of the days. All one has to do is to count two consecutive full-moons and then one "hilal" and there you have it, 40 nights. The God gives us the most robust and most efficient way possible.

It is IMPOSSIBLE for the crescents to a be timing mechanisms for 12 anything because there are in REALITY 24-26 crescents/"ahilat" in a year. Remember "ahila(t)"/crescents mean both the widening crescents and the thinning crescents.

This is what is said in 2189. alahillat are a timing mechanism for 1) the people and as well as for 2) alhajj.

I think you mean to say "alahillat are a timing mechanism for people except Moses" according to your understanding of 7142 above!

Alhajj is in the periods (ash-hurun) which have been appointed = the four restricted) (2197)
and I consider "sha-hr ramadan" as the first period of the four retricted period. Consequetly, alahillat are a timing mechanism for the period of ramadan.

But there aren't 12 "ahilat" in a year. There are on average 25 "ahilat" in a year. There is no link between "shahr" and "ahilat", linguistically and logically. Like in the case of Moses, the "hilal" is simply used to time the END of the 10 day period of "7ajj" and abstinence.

Some years have 13 full moons doesn't imply that there are 13 period per year. I try only to follow the instruction given in 2189, alahillat and not the full moon which are a timing mechanism for the four restricted period and also for the first restricted period= the period of ramadan.

The "shahr"/full moon is literally the marker for the four ristricted full moons/"ash-hur" and I already explained the difference between number and count. If you don't see the difference between number and count, then you better forget about "ahilat" because there are in fact on average 25 "ahilat"/crescents in a year!

Moreover, the period between each two consecutive "hilals" is either about 3 days (between the thinning and the widening "hilals") or 25 days (between the widening and the thining "hilals"). Hence, there are in fact about 24 "between 2 "hilals"" periods in a year.

Sister Marie, you criticize but do not tell us what the period of "ramadan" or abstinence is. It is always better to provide an alternative when one criticizes something
.

Early automn according to the preservation of land-game (the hemisphere north).

Sister, you ignore that you are starting to count 4 "periods" from "ramadan", so according to you the hunting restriction is early fall-winter. Where I am in the Northern Hemisphere, fall is deer hunting season because that is when they are the most plentiful. Hence, your preservation of land-game argument is not factual.

Moreover, Quraysh, the people of the prophet were traveling during the winter (see chapter 106), therefore it is highly unlikely that winter is the time for "7ajj".

We are also told that the time at which a chapter of the great reading was descended (986) was a HOT time of the year (981).

Please tell us how long is the period of abstinence.

This period is between two new moons (hilal), in 2004 the period of early automn (ramadan) start from 15 october november till 13 november.

But "hilal" doesn't mean "new moon" and this is a meaning that you are simply forced to assume in order to make it seem as if your interpretation works. The "hilal" means crescent moon (which could be the thinning crescent or the widening crescent) and that is an indisputable fact. Hence, there are on average 25 crescents/"ahila(t)" in a year. The period between each two consecutive "hilals" is either about 3 days (between the thinning and the widening "hilals") or 25 days (between the widening and the thining "hilals"). Hence, there are in fact about 24 "between 2 "hilal"" periods in a year.

Sister, please translate the word "ramadan" for us. We have to abstain according to the command. We can't know the command without knowing the meaning.

extreme heat, rain that comes just before autumn, the period ending summer and begining autumn.

Which meaning out of the above is confirmed by the great reading?

I look forward to your answer.

Paix and all best wishes,

Ayman

zenje

Peace brother Ayman,

I finally read the articles and the rest of the posts here, and I must commend you on a job well done! D From all the conjecture and guess work that we've been through, this is the closest to reality and truth that I've seen. So far, I don't think there would be any confusion in this system.

Just wanted to mention that I found this connection interesting;

The full moon of scorching heat is when the reading was descended as a guidance for people and clarifications from the guidance and the criterion, so whomever witnesses the full-moon, let him abstain it. And whomever was sick or traveling so a count of other days. The God wants to facilitate and not make it hard on you. And so complete the count and magnify The God for what He guided you and perhaps you would be thankful.
And complete the Pilgrimage and the visit for God. But, if you are prevented, then make what is affordable of donation, and do not shave your heads until the donation reaches its destination; but whoever of you is ill or has an affliction to his head, then he may redeem by fasting or giving a charity or a sacrifice. But if you are able, then whoever continues the visit until the Pilgrimage, then he shall provide what is affordable of donation; but for he who cannot find anything, then he must fast for three days during the Pilgrimage and seven when he returns; this will make a complete ten; this is for those whose family is not present at the Restricted Temple. And be aware of God, and know that God is severe in retribution.
And We appointed for Moses thirty nights and completed them with ten, so the appointed time of his Lord was completed at forty nights. And Moses said to his brother Aaron ?Be my successor with my people and be upright, and do not follow the path of the corrupters.?

And this is my own addition... which probably doesn't make much sense. ops

He said ?I wish you to marry one of my two daughters, on condition that you work for me through eight pilgrimage periods; if you complete them to ten, it will be voluntary on your part. I do not wish to make this matter too difficult for you. You will find me, God willing, of the righteous.?

ayman

Peace brother Zein,

Thank you for your kind comments and encouragement. It is you who originally reminded me and got me started thinking about this issue again after I had given up. )

You bring some more excellent clarifying evidence from the great reading. I will add this excellent evidence to the article.

With all best wishes and peace,

Ayman

marie

Peace Ayman, all,

The full moon of scorching heat is when the reading was descended as a guidance for people and clarifications from the guidance and the criterion, so whomever witnesses the full-moon, let him abstain it. And whomever was sick or traveling so a count of other days. The God wants to facilitate and not make it hard on you. And so complete the count and magnify The God for what He guided you and perhaps you would be thankful.

This expression "let him abstain it" doesn't mean to start abstinence when we witness "ashasha-hr" but to abstain sha-hr ramadan (IT) which is a period like the other retricted periods. There is no starting in this verse but abstainning a fixed period sha-hr ramadan

To abstain the full moon or the new moon doesn't make sence.

Whatever the solar or lunar calendar, there are 12 periods per years, what is wrong with this?

The count of the months with God is twelve months in God?s record the day He created the heavens and the Earth; four of them are restricted. (936)
This a fact and not an approximation, there is only twelve periods in God?s record.

In 2187, Allah explains us how to fast, I think it should be valid for all people whatever our geographical situation.
We cannot apply this "And you may eat and drink until the white thread is distinct from the black thread of dawn; then you shall complete the fast until night" for some areas during some seasons because there is no night or no day.

Fasting is decreed for us as it was decreed for those before us (2183), we have to follow the same commands.

Allah always fixes the days of fasting 3 days (589), 3+7 days (2196), two sha-hr/period (492, 584). The period is also fixed in 2185 which is the period of ramadan.

Alhajj is in periods which have been appointed. So whosoever decides to perform (alhajj) in them, then there shall be no sexual approach, nor vileness, nor baseless argument in the Pilgrimage. And any good that you do, God is aware of it; and bring provisions for yourselves, though the best provision is righteousness; and be aware of Me O people of understanding.

Alhajju ashhurun maAAloomatun faman farada feehinna alhajja fala rafathawala fusooqa wala jidala fee alhajjiwama tafAAaloo min khayrin yaAAlamhu Allahuwatazawwadoo fa-inna khayra alzzadi alttaqwawaittaqooni ya olee al-albabi

From the verse above, it is clear that Allah leaves it to our convenience to choose in which period(the four restricted periods) to perform Alhajj, we are free to do it at any moment during the restricted period we choose, to start "alhajj" when we observe the full moon or other phases is not a condition.

But "hilal" doesn't mean "new moon" and this is a meaning that you are simply forced to assume in order to make it seem as if your interpretation works.

Hallatun can mean the first rain

Hallatu alqamar = the start of the moon (t0)

In order to preserve wildlife in the northern hemisphere, the season of autumn is the best period to attain this goal. This is why I choose early automn as meaning for ramadan instead of extrem heat.

The weather is also hot during automn season in some countries.

The word "meeqat" is used through the quran several times. In my opinion,there is no connection between the crescent and meeqat neither in 7142 nor in 7155, 2638, 4440, 5650, 7817.

Another example the word mawqoot is used for salat and it refers to the sun movement.

It is "ahila(t)" that are "mawaqeet". As far as I know, the sun is never described as "meeqat/mawaqeet".

In 7142, Allah fixed 40 nights, the complete term (meeqat) = 40 nights. How simple to count 40 nights? we have only to abserve 40 sunsets. You complicate the problem, both the moon and the sun serve to count the years, and measure the time (1712, 696).

Allah knows best

Marie

ayman

Peace sister Marie, all,

This expression "let him abstain it" doesn't mean to start abstinence when we witness "ashasha-hr" but to abstain sha-hr ramadan (IT) which is a period like the other retricted periods. There is no starting in this verse but abstainning a fixed period sha-hr ramadan

To abstain the full moon or the new moon doesn't make sence.

In 2185 we are directly and clearly told to abstain it and to complete the count of the days (also previously talked about in 2184). If I tell you "abstain today and complete 10 days", what doesn't make sense about that?

It doesn't make sense to you because you ignore the Arabic meaning of "shahr" and wrongly interpret it as the fuzzy "period", which could be anything since even half a day is a period.

Whatever the solar or lunar calendar, there are 12 periods per years, what is wrong with this?

Please do the math sister. 365/12 gives a greater number of days than the lunar cycle. Hence, the 12 lunar cycle you are proposing is not the 12 "shahr" talked about in 936. You will remain stuck here until you see that there is a difference between "3adad" and "3ida(t)" and that The God doesn't use them haphazardly.

The count of the months with God is twelve months in God?s record the day He created the heavens and the Earth; four of them are restricted. (936)
This a fact and not an approximation, there is only twelve periods in God?s record.

A day is a "period" and even half a day is a "period". So your saying that there is twelve periods doesn't tell us anything. You are forced to be vague because you know very well that there aren't 12 new-moon cycle in a year and that is a fact. This is why the so-called Islamic calendar that you are advocating is not in-sync with the year. You are advocating the current traditional calendar without knowing because you then contradict yourself and say that "ramadan" is in the autumn, which means that you would have to add a 13th month every three years to keep the lunar cycle in sync with the seasons.

In 2187, Allah explains us how to fast, I think it should be valid for all people whatever our geographical situation.
We cannot apply this "And you may eat and drink until the white thread is distinct from the black thread of dawn; then you shall complete the fast until night" for some areas during some seasons because there is no night or no day.

Fasting is decreed for us as it was decreed for those before us (2183), we have to follow the same commands.

I agree.

Allah always fixes the days of fasting 3 days (589), 3+7 days (2196), two sha-hr/period (492, 584). The period is also fixed in 2185 which is the period of ramadan.

"Period" could be anything. Please be specific sister. If you think that "shahr" means "the period between two new moons" then say it but then your explanation would contradict 936 and your "ramadan" would be disconnected from the seasons.

According to my understanding, The God gives the complete info we need in 2185.

Alhajj is in periods which have been appointed. So whosoever decides to perform (alhajj) in them, then there shall be no sexual approach, nor vileness, nor baseless argument in the Pilgrimage. And any good that you do, God is aware of it; and bring provisions for yourselves, though the best provision is righteousness; and be aware of Me O people of understanding.

Alhajju ashhurun maAAloomatun faman farada feehinna alhajja fala rafathawala fusooqa wala jidala fee alhajjiwama tafAAaloo min khayrin yaAAlamhu Allahuwatazawwadoo fa-inna khayra alzzadi alttaqwawaittaqooni ya olee al-albabi

From the verse above, it is clear that Allah leaves it to our convenience to choose in which period(the four restricted periods) to perform Alhajj, we are free to do it at any moment during the restricted period we choose, to start "alhajj" when we observe the full moon or other phases is not a condition.

So now you change your mind and say that "when we observe the full moon or other phases is not a condition", in other words it is any period and that the "ahila(t)" are not timing devices for "al-7ajj"/the debate anymore. I am sorry sister but the "ahila(t)" definitely time the "7ajj" according to 2189. My interpretation is that they time it by telling us when it ends.

Hallatun can mean the first rain

That is not a meaning that is supported by the context in the great reading.

Hallatu alqamar = the start of the moon (t0)

Here is the meaning given by all classical Arabic dictionaries for "hilal"/plural"ahila(t)"

Clearly, it doesn't mean the new moon but it means the crescent moon in general.

Notice how you say "hallatu al-qamar" so do you finally admit that "al-qamar" doesn't mean full-moon but simply means "moon". Please close this issue.

In order to preserve wildlife in the northern hemisphere, the season of autumn is the best period to attain this goal.

Who says so? I already gave you the example of autumn being the best time for deer hunting in the northern hemisphere. Please give any scientific references to what you are claiming.

This is why I choose early automn as meaning for ramadan instead of extrem heat.

Since you start in autumn, I think that you mean to say autumn - early winter. Besides your alleged restricted new-moons would float every year and would not always occur in autumn so until you somehow fix this error, you can forget about autumn.

The weather is also hot during automn season in some countries.

No it is not what people normally associate with heat. In fact, in Arabia autumn is the rainy season.

The word "meeqat" is used through the quran several times. In my opinion,there is no connection between the crescent and meeqat neither in 7142 nor in 7155, 2638, 4440, 5650, 7817.

In all those instances (except 7142 and 7155) we are told about the specific timing device used. for example, we are told in another verse that the meeqat in 2638 is "ywm al-zinat" (the time/day of beautification). As for the others, their timing is specifically "the day of judgment". In 7142 "ahilat"/crescents, the general "meeqat" for people, is most likely to have been used because it is also talking about NIGHTS. We know that nights is when the crescent would be apparent.

Another example the word mawqoot is used for salat and it refers to the sun movement.

It is used for "kitab"/book and we are told about the specific times for learning the book/"salat" in the great reading.

In 7142, Allah fixed 40 nights, the complete term (meeqat) = 40 nights. How simple to count 40 nights? we have only to abserve 40 sunsets. You complicate the problem, both the moon and the sun serve to count the years, and measure the time (1712, 696).

Which is easiest and more efficient? counting 40 nights or counting 2 full-moons and 10 nights (or until the "hilal" stage appears). The answer is clear.

Peace and all best wishes,

Ayman

marie

Peace brother Ayman,

In the light of the quran AAiddat or AAadad is a number and AAiddat is a fixed number

The count (AAiddata) of the months with God is twelve months in God?s record the day He created the heavens and the Earth (936)

so as to circumvent the count (AAiddata) that God has made restricted (937)

four of them are restricted (936)

Say ?My Lord is fully aware of their number (AAiddatihim), none know them except for a few.? (1822)

As for the women who have reached menopause, if you have any doubts, their interim (AAiddatuhunna) shall be three months.(654)

You cannot deny that there are 12 periods per years whatever the solar or lunar calendar and this is not a coincidence. It is normal there is a gap between the two system and that doesn't mean they are false. It is simple to align the two system if we want that the month of ramadan corresponds to the same season (early automn or extreme heat..).

I try to use the quranic evidence and I don't trust the meaning given by the dictionnaries neither for salat nor for sha-hr...

I understand your view and I have mine.

I prefer to stop the debate at this stage looking for other quranic argument Insha'Allah. I believe the clear response is in the quran.

I always learn from your good articles.

Thanks

Peace and best wishes

Marie

ayman

Peace sister Marie,

Thank you for helping in validating the article and improving our understanding through the debate.

You cannot deny that there are 12 periods per years whatever the solar or lunar calendar and this is not a coincidence. It is normal there is a gap between the two system and that doesn't mean they are false. It is simple to align the two system if we want that the month of ramadan corresponds to the same season (early automn or extreme heat..).

I agree that it is simple to align the full-moons with the seasons. All we have to do is count only 12 full-moons and not count 13 even in the occasional year where their absolute number is 13.

You say that it is simple to align the two systems and yet you do not tell us anything about this simple alignment method or how to do it without violating 936-37. I look forward to hearing your simple solution when you figure it out.

Peace and all best wishes,

Ayman

marie

Peace brother Ayman,

Peace sister Marie,

Thank you for helping in validating the article and improving our understanding through the debate.

I think you speak about the verse about quraysh. At school we learned that there is four seasons 1) khareef (automn), 2) shita (winter), 3) rabi3 (springs) and 4) sayf (summer).
You have said that "qayzh" is after sayf and before automn but according what I have learned, this is automn which is between sayf (summer) and shita/(winter). There is no reference of qayth in the quran.
The names of the lunar calendar periods have not systematically a link with the seasons.

Which of the two definitions should we believe?

For the moment In the light of the quranic arguments, I I lean towards early automn.
Another problem, we cannot apply 2187 in some area on the earth where there is no day or night during winter or summer and cannot adjust 2187 for some people.

You cannot deny that there are 12 periods per years whatever the solar or lunar calendar and this is not a coincidence. It is normal there is a gap between the two system and that doesn't mean they are false. It is simple to align the two system if we want that the month of ramadan corresponds to the same season (early automn or extreme heat..).

I agree that it is simple to align the full-moons with the seasons. All we have to do is count only 12 full-moons and not count 13 even in the occasional year where their absolute number is 13.

Correct me if I'm wrong, the years where we count 13 full moons that doesn't mean there is 13 periods/months. I also think that sah-hr means period and not full moon.

AAiddat in the light of the quran is also equal to twelve (936), we cannot say that AAiddat is a number < or = 10.

To complete the count refers to the period of ramadan (2185) and not to 10 days.

You say that it is simple to align the two systems and yet you do not tell us anything about this simple alignment method or how to do it without violating 936-37. I look forward to hearing your simple solution when you figure it out.

By adding the thirteenth month/period, I don't consider this addition as a violation of 936-37 because the 13rd period is an imaginary period which doesn't exist, it is added only to align the two systems.

The calendular and solar systems have only twelve periods.

Allah knows best

Marie

ayman

Peace sister Marie,

I think you speak about the verse about quraysh. At school we learned that there is four seasons 1) khareef (automn), 2) shita (winter), 3) rabi3 (springs) and 4) sayf (summer).
You have said that "qayzh" is after sayf and before automn but according what I have learned, this is automn which is between sayf (summer) and shita/(winter). There is no reference of qayth in the quran.

There is no reference to "kharif" or "qayth" in the great reading. This doesn't mean that those seasons don't exist.

What you have been taught in the school is Modern Arabic defintions NOT Classical Arabic definitions. We know from archeological and linguistic evidence that the Arabs used 4, 5, and 6 season systems. Even their 4 season system was different than the modern 4 season system that you were taught in school. Here is what Lisan Al-3arab says about the definition of the seasons in the 4 season system that some Arabs used

, , , , , .

From the above, you can see that even for the Arabs that used 4 seasons "sayf" was spring, "qayth" was summer, "kharif" was autumn, and "shitaa" was winter.

Please remember that what we are after is not how present day school children and modern Arabs understand terms such as "sayf" but how a "pre-quranic" Arab hearing Chapter 106 would have understood it.

For the moment In the light of the quranic arguments, I I lean towards early automn.

You can lean towards anything you want but you have to consider the fact that when a chapter of the great reading was descended (986) was a HOT time of the year (981). You can't ignore that.

Another problem, we cannot apply 2187 in some area on the earth where there is no day or night during winter or summer and cannot adjust 2187 for some people.

According to your argument, "in some area on the earth where there is no day or night during winter or summer" there would also be no "salat al-fajr" or "salat al-3ishaa" for some people. Of course, this is incorrect.

Correct me if I'm wrong, the years where we count 13 full moons that doesn't mean there is 13 periods/months. I also think that sah-hr means period and not full moon.

If you take "shahr" to mean "period between any two phases of the moon" then in every year there is going to be more than 12 periods, there will be 12.3 periods in your calendar. If you take "shahr" to mean "full moon" then you would get exactly 12 full moons and you would get a year with 13 full-moons every three years, however as I indicated since we are talking about "3idat" and not "3adad", you simply don't count the 13th moon. The would automatically adjust the full-moons to coincide with the seasons.

AAiddat in the light of the quran is also equal to twelve (936), we cannot say that AAiddat is a number < or = 10.

You are correct. However, in 2184 we see the term "ma3doodat"/few/counted which we don't see in 936. The completion of the "3idat" of "ma3doodat" is always 10 in the great reading and brother Zein already kindly provided the references.

To complete the count refers to the period of ramadan (2185) and not to 10 days.

Why does The God need to say "complete the count" if as you claim the count is a known period between two new-moons. This would be redundant.

Also, keep in mind that you have ZERO evidence for your "ahilat" meaning of "new-moons" since ALL the dictionaries say that they mean "crescents" in general (both thinning and widening crescents). Hence, if we take your interpretation for a period being the period between two "hilals" then it could be either 3 days or a median of 25 days.

By adding the thirteenth month/period, I don't consider this addition as a violation of 936-37 because the 13rd period is an imaginary period which doesn't exist, it is added only to align the two systems.

If you interpret "shahr" to mean period and see no difference between "3idat" and "3adad" then you are indeed violating 936. As you said, you are now counting 13 periods while 936 says to count only 12. I don't know what you mean by "imaginary". During that 30 day "period" will you just imagine that time stopped and that reality ceased to exist for 30 days?

The calendular and solar systems have only twelve periods.

If you take period to mean "period between two new moons" and you want to keep it in line with the seasons then your calendar system has 13 periods in some years. The Georgian solar calendar has some arbitrary periods with 31 days and others with 30 and 28/29 days to make them 12. The so-called Islamic calendar has 12.3 months every year and not 12. Only in the system that I understood from the great reading do we count EXACTLY 12 full moons EVERY SINGLE year and it is in-sync with the seasons.

I hope this helps and as usual The God knows best.

Peace and all best wishes,

Ayman

marie

Peace brother Ayman,

Several points in your reasoning remains fuzzy and approximate. A clear soklution should be based on all evidence quranic and this is not the case because that doesn't fit your final conclusion.

We have not the same understanding of AAiddat and maAAdoodat (280, 2184, 2203, 324, 118, 1220). AAiddat could be 3, 4 or 12...etc
MaAAdoodat depends on the context of the verse.

In the light of the context, "ayyam maAAdoodat" refers to sha-hr ramadan.

There is no AAiddat or maAAdoodat in 2827 and 7142.

We have not the same understanding of the word meeqat, it depends also on the context of each verse (7142, 7155, 2638, 4440, 5650, 7817). Salat (timed book) is a good example.

We have not the same understanding of the verse 936.

Agree to disagree for the moment.

Thanks for patience and perseverence.

Marie

ayman

Peace sister Marie,

We have not the same understanding of AAiddat and maAAdoodat (280, 2184, 2203, 324, 118, 1220). AAiddat could be 3, 4 or 12...etc

I agree.

MaAAdoodat depends on the context of the verse.

In the light of the context, "ayyam maAAdoodat" refers to sha-hr ramadan.

Notice how unlike "3idat" that you are clear about, you don't tell us what "ma3doodat" means. Instead of speculation, please give an example from the great reading where "ma3doodat" is used to mean a number over 10. You can't use 2184 because then you are building a circular argument.

There is no AAiddat or maAAdoodat in 2827 and 7142.

Is the number 10 in those verses not a counted number?

Sister, you have got to use some deductive reasoning and you can't expect the answer to be presented on a silver platter as "completing the "3idat" of "ma3doodat" = 10".

We have not the same understanding of the word meeqat, it depends also on the context of each verse (7142, 7155, 2638, 4440, 5650, 7817). Salat (timed book) is a good example.

Actually, I have the same understanding as you of "meeqat" but it is you who doesn't have the same understanding as me. This is for the simple reason that I see "meeqat" as the timing of the START and/or END of something while you see it ONLY as the start. Therefore my understanding encompasses your understanding. So far, you have brought zero evidence that "meeqat" only means the start of something and never the end. The example of "salat" actually completely negates your understanding because "salat" has a START and an END.

We have not the same understanding of the verse 936.

Agree to disagree for the moment.

The only reason why we have different understanding of 936 is because you don't see a difference between "3idat" and "3adad". On the other hand, I believe and logically one can see that The God doesn't use those two different terms haphazardly. Let's at least agree on that.

We also agree that when one counts more or less than EXACTLY 12 "shahr", one would be in violation of 936. In the system as I understand it, one ALWAYS counts EXACTLY 12 "full-moons" EVERY year, while in your understanding because you don't see the difference between "3idat" and "3adad", you are forced to count 13 in some years to keep your alleged "period between two new moons" in line with the seasons.

Thank you for your patience and input. I hope that we agree before the full-moon after the summer solstice so that we can all abstain in the correct timeframe. Luckily, we still have plenty of time. )

Peace and all best wishes,

Ayman

marie

Peace brother Ayman,

Notice how unlike "3idat" that you are clear about, you don't tell us what "ma3doodat" means. Instead of speculation, please give an example from the great reading where "ma3doodat" is used to mean a number over 10. You can't use 2184 because then you are building a circular argument.

In the light of the quran, maAAdoodat doesn't mean a known number but a few days and not specifically 10 days (280, 324, 118, 1220).

I think sha-hr ramadan is also a counted number of the days and to complete alAAiddat is to complete the count of sha-hr ramadan.

You are wrong when you said that I see the word meeqat ONLY as the start. I consider it both the start and the end of one period.
"salat" has a START and an END in the same way than Hilal which is also the start and the end of sha-hr ramadan.

Thank you for your patience and input. I hope that we agree before the full-moon after the summer solstice so that we can all abstain in the correct timeframe. Luckily, we still have plenty of time.

This is my deeper whishes, I'm sure we can converge to the same understanding Insha'Allah.

For the moment, I have not the response to several points.

Let us suppose that sha-hr means the full moon, I will give you some arguments which will please you twisted

Sha-hr ramadan in which the quran was sent down as a guide and especially during the night of alqadr (971)

If sha-hr means full moon, maybe the night of alqadr (971-3) refers to the night where the full moon starts his transformation and becomes (qaddarnahu) through stages (manazila) a crescent like an old curved date-stalk (3639)

971 Behold, We have revealed it in the Night of alqadri.
Inna anzalnahu fee laylati alqadri

972 Ah, what will enlighten you what it is, the Night of alqadri!
Wama adraka ma laylatu alqadri

I wonder this question, why the night of alqadr is better than a thousand sha-hr (full moon?)?
Perhaps because there is two lights during the night of alqadr 1) the light brought by the quran and 2) the light brought by the full moon twisted

973 The Night of alqadri is better than a thousand months. (A day of enlightenment is better than a life-time of ignorance).
Laylatu alqadri khayrun min alfi shahrin

3639 And the moon We have measured for it phases until it becomes (a crescent) like an old curved date-stalk.
Waalqamara qaddarnahu manazilahatta AAada kaalAAurjooni alqadeemi

Peace
Marie

ayman

Peace sister Marie,

In the light of the quran, maAAdoodat doesn't mean a known number but a few days and not specifically 10 days (280, 324, 118, 1220).

I totally agree, "maAAdoodat" doesn't mean a known number but a few days (a "few" by definition is between 3-10) and not specifically 10 days.

I think sha-hr ramadan is also a counted number of the days and to complete alAAiddat is to complete the count of sha-hr ramadan.

To complete "alAAiddat" of "maAAdoodat", which we already agree means a few (between 3-10) means complete/reach the maximum of a few/"maAAdoodat" which is 10.

You are wrong when you said that I see the word meeqat ONLY as the start. I consider it both the start and the end of one period.
"salat" has a START and an END in the same way than Hilal which is also the start and the end of sha-hr ramadan.

But "ahilat" are only described as "mawaqeet" for people and for "7ajj" not for "ramadan". We agree that the term "ramadan" is season related. In other words, scorching heat or in your case the time between "sayf" and "kharif" (which is called "qayth" according to Lisan Al-3arab).

The term "mawaqeet" is the timing of the start, end, or start and end. One cannot use "hilal" to time any 12 periods because there are actually 25 "hilals" on average in a year. Please remember that "hilal" denotes both thinning and widening crescents.

One cannot use "hilal" to time both the start and end of the several 40 day periods talked about in the great reading or the 10 day period of "7ajj" and of abstinence. Hence, it must be that the "hilal" in those cases is used to time either the end or the beginning. Given the evidence, it is most likely to be used as a timing device for the end of "7ajj". Remember 2189 and the example of ENTERING through the obvious/clear and apparent one front door ("the obvious one full-moon") and not the non-obvious back of the house ("the unobvious crescents"). However, there is nothing that says that we can't EXIT the house through the unobvious back doors.