Why abandon rituals?
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Salamun Alaykum.
I have something to say, especially to those people in whose lives, religious-rituals don?t play an important role and are meant to carry very little to no value at all, based on their understanding of the God?s book.
While I was reading the old topics in the salat section of this forum, I?ve found some people who believe that the Quran doesn?t tell us of any sort of rituals to be carried out, and all the translations have been distorted, and based on their findings and logic, they asserted that the word ?salat? means ?to establish God?s system in the society?.
Then they put forward some questions such as
If salat means ritual prayer, then where is the word ?rakah/unit? in the Quran?
Where in the Quran does it talk about the number of rakah/units we have to do in each of the salats?
Why didn?t God give us a step-by-step process on how to do the ritual prayer?
Etc.
So in the end, they decided that salat cannot be a ritual prayer but has to be something else.
Very recently, I?ve seen a thread where someone was saying that ?wudu/ablution? in 56, cannot mean a physical washing of the body parts, but has to be talking about spiritual cleaning of one?s soul. Therefore, the person implied that all the translations of 56 are distorted, and so far, none of the scholars have interpreted this verse correctly.
Then the person put forward a question something like
How can ablution be ?physical washing? and how can tayammum be ?physical rubbing of pure soil?, since soil itself isn?t clean and what if I can?t find water and at the same time, can?t find any pure soil, then what is supposed to be done?
...and tons of other questions.
So the person concluded that 56 cannot mean physical washing.
Now?
Let?s take a look at the following
2183 O YOU who have attained to faith! Fasting is ordained for you as it was ordained for those before you, so that you might remain conscious of God
2184 during a certain number of days. But whoever of you is ill, or on a journey, number of other days; and
it is incumbent upon those who can afford it to make sacrifice by feeding a needy person. And whoever does more good than he is bound to do does good unto himself thereby; for to
fast is to do good unto yourselves - if you but knew it.(Red highlighted for emphasis.)
Now answer me these
Where in the Quran does it talk about the ailments, considering which we can decide if we fall into the category of being ill or not?
Why didn?t God give us a list of all the ailments and diseases, to help us decide based on the list, if we can fast or not?
I have cough and one of my tonsils hurts. Can I fast?
I think I have a little fever, but I am not sure. Can I fast?
I have cancer. Can I fast?
Since I can?t find all the answers to my questions, DOES THIS MEAN 2184 IS NOT TALKING ABOUT BEING ILL?
I?m asking again. DOES THIS MEAN 2184 IS NOT TALKING ABOUT BEING ILL?
Isn?t this what they did? Just because they couldn?t find details about rakah/units and about other stuff, they concluded that salat cannot mean ritual prayer and 56 cannot be talking about physical washing of the body parts.
It seems like they wish to find every single answer in the Quran. But for that to become possible, the Quran needs to be fifty times more thicker in pages to what we have today.
SO WHO WILL DECIDE IF I AM ILL OR NOT? AND WHO WILL DECIDE IF I CAN FAST OR NOT?
The answer is, ?Me?. I will use my God-given brain and decide if I am ill or not. And I know that I can?t fool God with this, cause if I lie about being ill, then God knows very well what?s in my heart and I will be fooling no one but myself.
Now as another example, think of a situation like this
You?re travelling on a bus and you want to do your salat. For ablution, you have no water, nor do you have any pure soil for tayammum.
WHAT WILL YOU DO? AND WHO WILL DECIDE FOR YOU?
The answer is, ?You?. You will decide what you want to do. You can either tell the bus driver to halt the bus for a moment so that you can get out for two minutes to do the ablution or tayammum and do your salat outside, or you can get back and do your salat inside the bus, or you may decide not to do the salat at all and ask Allah to forgive you. It?s all up to YOU and only YOU will decide what you want to do!
Anyway, before I end this, based on evidence, logic and reason, let?s see if salat means ?establishing God?s system in the society? or not
And did We inspire Moses and his brother "Set aside for your people some houses in the city, and , `Turn your houses into places of worship, and be constant in prayer!' And give thou the glad tiding to all believers." (1087)
Transliteration Waawhayna ila moosa waakheehi an tabawwaa liqawmikuma bimisra buyootan waijAAaloo buyootakum qiblatan waaqeemoo alssalata wabashshiri almu/mineena (1087)
If you read the above verse in context, you will see that this verse came long before prophet Moses (pbuh) saved the children of Israel and escaped from Pharaoh and his army by crossing the sea. Then more later, prophet Moses (pbuh) was being asked by God to go up to the Mount Sinai for an appointed time, and there prophet Moses (pbuh) was given the commandments on the stone tablets.
Therefore, if salat means ?to establish God?s system?, how come the order of salat for the children of Israel was given long before prophet Moses (pbuh) even got the stone tablets?
A question to ponder about.
Peace.
Thank you @Scribbler for your excellent post.
What I learn from it, is a reminder that there is no universal religious "truth" or practice, since everything is quite subjective (as it should be) between "me" and God , and each and everyone of us should learn directly from the Qur'an, letting Allah alone teach us everything.
You are very much correct in your example about establishing what does it mean to be ill for oneself. I liked very much that illustration of yours and I agree.
Much of the confusions come from the conflict between man-made opinions and pristine message of the Qur'an.
One should progress slowly and gradually in knowledge, according to God's Will.
Thank you again.Praise be to God.
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Godsubmitter What I learn from it, is a reminder that there is no universal religious "truth" or practice, since everything is quite subjective (as it should be) between "me" and God , and each and everyone of us should learn directly from the Qur'an, letting Allah alone teach us everything.
Very well put. The only problem is when ppl think they have objective knowledge and impose it on others. Subjectivity is part of the human condition.
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Thank you @Scribbler for your excellent post.
What I learn from it, is a reminder that there is no universal religious "truth" or practice,
Praise be to God.
Sorry but I have to disagree. There is the TRUTH as set forth by God.
There is God, people and satan. The goal of satan is that people not see the TRUTH. While God guides you to His TRUTH.
Now....
There are those who see what they want to see that which serves them.
There are those who see the TRUTH but will deny anyway.
There are those who see part and think it is the whole TRUTH.
There are those who really don't care to know the TRUTH.
There are those who will accept what the rabbi, imam, priest or whoever speaks as the truth.
There are those who don't listen when TRUTH is spoken. They are deaf to it.
There are those who refuse to see the TRUTH. They are blind to it.
There are those who cannot comprehend. They are dumb to it.
There are those who think that they know but really don't know - they are the misguided ones.
There are those who will twist, distort, change the TRUTH.
There are those who invent, fabricate and then claim that what they say is the TRUTH.
There are those who have moments of clarity of the TRUTH but then go back to their ignorance.
There are those who no matter how much evidence is given, will still not see or believe in the TRUTH.
There are those who are too arrogant and egotistical to admit the TRUTH instead holding onto and promoting their own beliefs and views.
There are those who would rather follow traditions, say the popular thing, than uphold the TRUTH.The Koran gives examples of every kind. And every kind of people are to be found in this forum and outside.
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Justamuslim There is God, people and satan. The goal of satan is that people not see the TRUTH. While God guides you to His TRUTH.
That's the problem indeed. People who think they have truth and no one else does. This is how Sunnism came about.
Don't fall for the Richard Dawkins effect, bro. Dawkins postulates that 'I cant see God, therefore God cannot exist'. Dawkins is biased human being with an anti-metaphysical bias so why should I trust him?
Don't be like 'if I can't see interpretation X, it must be false'. It could WE OURSELVES who aren't intelligent or spiritual enough. That 'we' includes me I don't trust anyone to be an authoritative source of interpretation. My interpretation may WELL be wrong but at least it's my own. Why would I trust anyone else? People have biases.
TIMTINS handshake
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Salamun Alaykum.
Now as another example, think of a situation like this
You?re travelling on a bus and you want to do your salat. For ablution, you have no water, nor do you have any pure soil for tayammum.
WHAT WILL YOU DO? AND WHO WILL DECIDE FOR YOU?
The answer is, ?You?. You will decide what you want to do. You can either tell the bus driver to halt the bus for a moment so that you can get out for two minutes to do the ablution or tayammum and do your salat outside, or you can get back and do your salat inside the bus, or you may decide not to do the salat at all and ask Allah to forgive you. It?s all up to YOU and only YOU will decide what you want to do!
Peace.
Did God say that YOU will decide if you are on a journey (as an example) to skip salat?
In verse 4101-104, did God leave it to the individual believer to decide for himself/herself to skip salat if on a journey and then to ask for forgiveness later?
God said in verse 56, when you qumtum for the salat and if you are on a journey and can't find water to do tayammum. God did not say it is up to the individual to decide if s/he wants to skip it.
God said to Muhammed in verse 4101-104 when he travels and fears the unbelievers to SHORTEN the salat but not to skip it. Even in conditions where there was not security, God did not say to skip salat. He said to shorten it.
God did not say in verse 2237-238 to skip salat when you are in fear.
God did not say you can skip the salat and later on ask for forgiveness.
Scribbler Can you back up what your saying with evidence from the Koran?
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Justamuslim God said in verse 56, when you qumtum for the salat and if you are on a journey and can't find water to do tayammum. God did not say it is up to the individual to decide if s/he wants to skip it.
So WHO gets to decide this )
Are we appointing religious scholars again? People who demand interpretations be evinced when they can't even process two sentences? It happens. My country's greatest Mufti just showed his ignorance when he said the Quran has 6666 ayat. Authority and officialdom means nothing.
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Salamun Alaykum.
Now answer me these
Where in the Quran does it talk about the ailments, considering which we can decide if we fall into the category of being ill or not?
Why didn?t God give us a list of all the ailments and diseases, to help us decide based on the list, if we can fast or not?
I have cough and one of my tonsils hurts. Can I fast?
I think I have a little fever, but I am not sure. Can I fast?
I have cancer. Can I fast?
SO WHO WILL DECIDE IF I AM ILL OR NOT? AND WHO WILL DECIDE IF I CAN FAST OR NOT?
The answer is, ?Me?. I will use my God-given brain and decide if I am ill or not. And I know that I can?t fool God with this, cause if I lie about being ill, then God knows very well what?s in my heart and I will be fooling no one but myself.
Peace.
The question is not if you can decide for yourself if you are ill or not. When you have fever of 38.9 degrees celsius, do you need to think 'hmmm.....let me decide for myself if I have fever'?
Ok in 2184, if you are sick then prescribe other days. But how about with salat? If we take your reasoning and apply it to salat, then what you are saying is that you can decide if you are physically sick and you can decide if you want to do salat or not?
Did God say that if you are sick, you can decide for yourself if you want to do salat? Or skip it if you are sick?
In verse 56, God says when you qumtum for the salat, and you are sick and cannot find water then to do tayammum. Same in verse 443.
God did not say if you are sick, you can skip or do salat later.
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Don't be like 'if I can't see interpretation X, it must be false'. It could WE OURSELVES who aren't intelligent or spiritual enough. That 'we' includes me ) I don't trust anyone to be an authoritative source of interpretation. My interpretation may WELL be wrong but at least it's my own. Why would I trust anyone else? People have biases.
God said X. Person interprets X as Y. God did not say Y but that is what person claims. Interpretation Y contradicts the message of the Koran, defies logic, common sense, reasoning, and distorts what God said which is X. Interpretation Y is not based on evidence from the Koran. One can argue and be defensive to the Nth degree and can have majority of the people believing and supporting in interpretation of X as Y, but that doesn't mean Y is X. God did not say Y. God said X.
Truth is X - not Y, not Z, not A. If you interpret A, you are wrong as truth is not A. Who should you trust? not Y, not Z, or anything else. You should only trust X which is what God said.
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But are you reading 'what God said' or 'what SOMEONE TOLD you God said' )
Let me tell you, it's not even about reading Arabic or translations. I have asked native Arabs to interpret (in Arabic) what they think of certain ayat and no two have ever given me the same interpretation.
I guess my bottom line question is how do you know you have X (What God ACTUALLY said) instead of Y (What someone interpreted God said) ? Perhaps you can outline the process for me?
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Emphasis mine
Remember, the lexicons you read today came AFTER the orthodoxification of Sunnism (500 YEARS after hijrah).
False.
500 years after hijrah is about ~1122.Classical Arabic Dictionaries (in chronological order)
kitab al ayn - khalil ibn ahmad (~718-786)
Kitab al Dajmharah (~838-933)
Makayis al Lughah (~1004)
Al Sihah (~1003)
Lisan al arab (13th century)
al qamus al muhit (14th century)If you have evidence to the contrary, please provide it.
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The answer is pretty simple. 4102 destroys the argument that Salat is not a ritual prayer. As some poster said before, it is subjective. I suspect those who deny ritual aspect of Salat harbour preconceived notions and twist quranic arabic to suit their preconception.
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The answer is pretty simple. 4102 destroys the argument that Salat is not a ritual prayer. As some poster said before, it is subjective. I suspect those who deny ritual aspect of Salat harbour preconceived notions and twist quranic arabic to suit their preconception.
detruction not confirmed.
I don't see there any instruction regarding showing Butt to God while prosternating towards the cubic stone.Peace
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The answer is pretty simple. 4102 destroys the argument that Salat is not a ritual prayer. As some poster said before, it is subjective. I suspect those who deny ritual aspect of Salat harbour preconceived notions and twist quranic arabic to suit their preconception.
Solomon, sadly, it's language like this which prevents meaningful diaologue. I reject the interpretation that 4/101-103 refer to a ritual prayer but I have done my best to understand it according to context. I could easily say the same about you, that your harbour prconcieved notions but I prefer to say , if that's how you see it, practice it and may Allah reward you.
Reject these pretensions of authority. These come from EGO, nothing more. Be brave enough to say 'this is my best understanding, I respect your right to disagree' and leave it at that.
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Bigmo, I can see you're a very respectful and tolerant guy even though you've sometimes not been treated in way in return. So I hope I won't offend you with my following comment
Language is not like mathematics. Mathematics functions in a created system of axioms in which people agree to when they participate. It is therefore systemically objective. Language isn't like that. It bends and shapes according to USAGE. This is an observable phenomenon today. Why should classical Arabic be any different?
The Quran does not have the categories of literal (haqiqi) or metaphorical (majazi). I think its because the term 'ayat' (signs) fits on both a physical/phenomenological level (fil ufq - 41/53) and psychological (fin nafs - also 41/53). So words must have the respective effect for you on those levels.
So for you, the ritual prayer works on those levels. That's brilliant. Don't let anyone tell you it's invalid or try to coerce you into proving it. Your experience IS proof. However, to say those who disagree 'change' the meanings of words is unwise and biased. For them, those words may have the same effect as for you. Words are sounds, what you attach TO those sounds is subjective and can only affect people subjectively. No one really speaks the same language when you think about it
TIMTINS handshake
What i noticed about those who have the linguism way of interpretating verses is that they all reject the previous scriptures and never look into it for any elaboration on the topics they pursue. They simply distance themselves from any Abrahamic traditions. Mostly they distance themselves from the previous scriptures.
I see it as a handicap where a person is trying his best but has a handicap where he can only go so far.
Too much time has been spent going in circles about what salat means and what zakat means and what qibla is and what haJ means and what saum means and mulk al yameen means and what sujood means and what zikr means and what etc etc. There is a growing awareness that this methodology is a dead end. This methadology may serve individuals but the movement as a whole will have to move on. Many times those who choose to follow this methodology see their arguments as convincing however that conviction is not shared by anyone but themselves. Another person uses that same methodology and reaches a different conclusion. It then goes in circles.
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Very well put. The only problem is when ppl think they have objective knowledge and impose it on others. Subjectivity is part of the human condition.
Thank you for your words
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Salaam Scribbler,
This doesn't sound like a statement a quranist would make, if you'll pardon me for saying so. The idea is to find the truth for yourself, not care who says what about which.If you're satisfied with your interpretation WHO CARES what other people think? You could be the only one in the world who thinks like you do if you feel the connection with Allah with your practice, no one can take that away from you.
As for other 'scholars', I think you're being quite generous with the term. In the majority of translations, we have Sunni scholars interpreting verses to suit the norms already present in hadith. And we do not escape the influence of hadith by simply dropping hadith. Remember, the lexicons you read today came AFTER the orthodoxification of Sunnism (500 YEARS after hijrah). So why on earth reject hadith if you accept meanings by those who believe in them?
Cut and paste readings of dictionaries don't make scholarship, bro. Quranists are in actually in a worse position than Sunnis. Most of us don't even READ Arabic and have to rely on people who TRANSLATE for us. We don't even know the historicity and historiography of Arabic which is very rich in detail. When we read our English dictionaries, how do we know they're not censored?
I've seen deliberate censorship of meanings dozens of times now.Can you imagine the layers of subjectivity which buffer us from the real meanings. Lets not act as if it's all so cut and dried. It's really not as simple as cutting and pasting meanings or reading translations which is essentially the same thing. Simplicity is usually a clever move to pass off some biased conclusion so lets not do that.
I hear what you're saying about asking for details though and I agree with you. I would ask those who metaphorise 5/6 what aspects of the self need cleaning or how do we establish the system since they also ask you for details. I think reason should answer that as you do.
I prefer to ask something else though, why is 5/6 where it is? I don't like to ignore context because to me, that's the ONLY objective proof we have. While dictionaries and grammar books are written by people and are never consistent , the Quran is objectively there. Why would God talk about washing JUST there. Why right after deen al-kameel and the yawms (5/3 and 5/4-5)? When you read these in context, you will find that your mind is already loaded with ideas. As such, I find it impossible to read it literally.
I wouldn't worry about these dead linguistic sources, they are at best only attempts at semanticisation. I would read in context and ask, what is the purpose of the Quran? Does a ritual washing fit in there? To me, it doesn't. If it does to you, np. WATDIP handshake
Peace be with you.
Red Yes, I agree with you. I shouldn't have said that. It happened cause of my hastiness, so I apologize. And I do believe that scholars are just simply human beings, and it is totally possible that scholars can interpret things wrongly as there exists many verses for examples.
Now brother, I understand where you're coming from, but my thinking is a little bit different. You believe in the Quran, which is the exact word of God, and I also believe the same thing. But when it comes to interpretations, what I can understand from you is that, you believe that of course God has protected His revelations (Quran in Arabic) from altering like the previous scriptures, cause God simply said in the Quran that he will protect it. I also believe in all these, but my difference in belief from you arises when I think that God has not only protected the Arabic revelations, but has also protected it's MEANINGS and He won't just let all the meanings of certain terms WHICH ARE ESSENTIAL FOR OUR SALVATION AND FOR ACHIEVING PARADISE to simply disappear from the face of this earth, cause then I think that it will be really unfair and unjust. And God CANNOT be unfair or unjust, not even in the least degree which amounts to a speck of dust.
I don't know why some Quranists find it really difficult to accept rituals, for e.g. salat as prayer, cause for me, just as everyone needs water to live and to quench their thirst, I need to have prayer to find peace in my heart and life. And I believe that Quran is the confirmation of previous scriptures cause my interpretation of the Quran says so. I don't know what your interpretation says.
And if I am to agree with you, then I can see that only ONE out of a MILLION Muslims in the world is guided by God, cause only one out of a million Muslims would believe that disregarding ablution before prayer is the right way, or disregarding the prayer entirely is the right way, or that God doesn't want us to pray. Can only one out of a million of all the Muslims be guided in God's path? Really? So little people are guided? Well, I'm sorry, cause I find it terribly hard to believe.
But I totally respect your opinions which you've shared, so no hard feelings handshake And may Allah guide us to His straight path (if we are not on it yet).
peace
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That's fair enough, Scribbler. To me, this is all a theoretical discuss anyway. It's up to us to practice what we know! I wish you all the best in your path handshake
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Did God say that YOU will decide if you are on a journey (as an example) to skip salat?
In verse 4101-104, did God leave it to the individual believer to decide for himself/herself to skip salat if on a journey and then to ask for forgiveness later?
God said in verse 56, when you qumtum for the salat and if you are on a journey and can't find water to do tayammum. God did not say it is up to the individual to decide if s/he wants to skip it.
God said to Muhammed in verse 4101-104 when he travels and fears the unbelievers to SHORTEN the salat but not to skip it. Even in conditions where there was not security, God did not say to skip salat. He said to shorten it.
God did not say in verse 2237-238 to skip salat when you are in fear.
God did not say you can skip the salat and later on ask for forgiveness.
Scribbler Can you back up what your saying with evidence from the Koran?
Peace be with you.
Your arguments are flawed at the best.
God also didn't say that if during the time of your salat, if your father gets a heart attack, then you should take him to the hospital right at that moment. So does this mean you won't take him to the hospital even if you have to miss your salat?
Or
During the time of your salat, if you break your finger in half by an accident, just because God didn't say anything, will you not run to the hospital right away to fix it to stop the pain, or will you wait to finish your salat?
Or
God also didn't specifically say that you can't throw trash in the middle of the streets, but you can still do that out of your will, right?
Or
God also didn't specifically say that you can use the computer, but you can still avoid using it, right?
I don't understand why you don't get this simple thing. Depending on situations, YOU can do whatever YOU want to do. Not everything has to be written in the Quran.
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Thank you @Scribbler for your excellent post.
What I learn from it, is a reminder that there is no universal religious "truth" or practice, since everything is quite subjective (as it should be) between "me" and God , and each and everyone of us should learn directly from the Qur'an, letting Allah alone teach us everything.
You are very much correct in your example about establishing what does it mean to be ill for oneself. I liked very much that illustration of yours and I agree.
Much of the confusions come from the conflict between man-made opinions and pristine message of the Qur'an.
One should progress slowly and gradually in knowledge, according to God's Will.
Thank you again.Praise be to God.
No problem, bro.
peace
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peace Scribbler,
Bear in mind for some of the things you mentioned it is only a very small minority who actually believe those things, and further, very few, if any, comprehensive studies have been published by those advocating certain views.
Quran talks a lot about being wary of following whims/desires, well one way to minimise this pitfall is to go with the evidence. Evidence needs to be made public however, in order to weigh and consider it. See 3918.
Peace be unto you.
Red Yes, brother. I'm aware of this fact. And those who got brainwashed by people like Aidid Safar (no offense intended), I hope they stumble into this thread and think of the questions which I've asked. I mean, at least it may give them a chance to think more before accepting anything.
