How sex before Marriage is not haram (prohibited) according to the Quran
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It is entering the terriority of sexual relations outside of the boundary of marriage
Salam sister
Depends on your interpretation of what boyfriend/girlfriend. Labels mean different things to different people and I do not think we will ever be able to agree to "Yes, sex is illegal if the relationship falls into this category and it is legal when it is in that category"
I used the example of sambo a million times on this forum. Here in Sweden there is something called "sambo". They hold the same lawful status as a marriage (with minute differences with regards to inheritance). What is sambo? Two people in a sexual relationship that live under the same roof. The whole country considers a sambo to be the same as a husband/wife..........but in another country they would be boyfriend/girlfriend, in others they would be fornicators.See what I mean? What we call the relationship is completely irrelevant. Instead we need to focus on the intention of the couple. Are they having sex because they love eachother and want to start a family or are they only in it for the pleasure?
Age is also irrelevant. To me a young person is just as capable of following the guidelines of committment and loyalty than an old person......The only difference between ages is that the older you get the less fish swim in the sea & yes it is sad but true ........A teenage boy/girl can feel they have met their soulmate. I have known kids that are totally in love with eachother and they truly believe that they will never love anyone as much as they love whatever boy or girl has caught their attention. One of my daughters (7 yrs old) has already decided she is going to marry Samuel, a boy two years younger than her. She told me she is biding her time because she doesnt want to marry him until he has learned to "behave".....I dont know what she meant by that...... Allah sees the loyalty and pureness of her heart eventhough her love is completely innocent and naive and even if their relationship would not last longer than a lunchbreak it is still in the best of intentions. Should we stop them because they could possible not know what love is about? To me that sounds like a sunni scholar telling me I am not knowledgable enough to understand Islam, it would be better for me to let him decide what I should believe in.....
When we read the Quran we find verses that say to us we must try our hardest to understand. If we did not understand or did something wrong but our intentions were good we are forgiven by Allah. Why should we stop people from following what they think is right? Let people fall in love and if it doesnt work out, then let them learn from their mistakes. Lets just pray that they have learned enough by the time their biological clock starts ticking.....
We are not to forbid young people to enjoy and learn about sex. What we do however need is to give them proper guidance, their age does not rectify not having to follow rules. The committment must be there regardless of age, the true intent must be there regardless of age and the loyalty must be there regardless of what "category" the relationship falls into.So illegal sex to me is all the type of sex that does not include committment, true intentions and loyalty. It has nothing to do with age nor label.
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Cheers folks!
So illegal sex to me is all the type of sex that does not include committment, true intentions and loyalty. It has nothing to do with age nor label.
Yes, I tend to agree, in theory, but people will foolishly think they have committment, true intentions and loyalty even when they don't. How mature are you actually at the age of 13?
I think young people are going to start thinking about that if they are in a relationship and if its a happy relationship they could start justifying that its ok.
Yes, because they lack the experience and knowledge about themselves. Also, "happy" might be very short lived.
But isn't Marriage a boyfriend/girlfriend relationship, but with consequences if one doesn't fulfill their obligations - then the law can take some action ?
Yes. What is the purpose of marriage anyway, and why is sex part of that topic? Must be a reason for that.
People are products of their environment and society. In that which is commonly called the "western society" (a label that I hate), we have a strong tendency to idolize the physical body and sexual expression. Young people pick this up, are formed by this, and take casual sexual relationships as totally normal, beginning at whatever age people reach puberty. Everything is geared towards sex in a very artificial and exaggerated way. (At the same time, it is not like what people in "eastern" societies think. I don't agree with their prejudice and ignorance about "western" society either.)
This societal push from media towards casual, sexual expression bolsters the culture of casual, short-term bf/gf relationships, which in reality do NOT involve any special level of commitment or responsibility. I seriously doubt that these relationships between often immature people have any benefit on the individuals or society, except that the people get experienced in sex and might perhaps develop some skill at it.
I tend to see casual/free sex like alcohol... it may be pleasant, fun, easy... but what is the balance of benefits vs harm in it? Just like many people refuse to acknowledge the harms of alcohol (e.g. behavioral change and it's consequences, and physical consequences..), they also refuse to acknowledge the harms of casual sex. These include e.g. emotional wounds (people are too emotionally numb to sense the effect that casual sex has has on you... hence it is mostly rejected as nonsense), single parent childhood (very bad for the children), etc ... so casual sex has no real benefits as such... it's just like a half-built in addiction that is strongly encouraged by society.
We can learn from everything, including drug-abuse or accidents... but this doesn't make it good or wise to engage in.
Just my two cents,
Peace y'all -
In all societies, marriage shapes the rights and obligations of parenthood. Among us humans, the scholars report, marriage is not primarily a license to have sex. Nor is it primarily a license to receive benefits or social recognition. It is primarily a license to have children.
In this sense, marriage is a gift that society bestows on its next generation. Marriage (and only marriage) unites the three core dimensions of parenthood -- biological, social and legal -- into one pro-child form the married couple. Marriage says to a child The man and the woman whose sexual union made you will also be there to love and raise you. Marriage says to society as a whole For every child born, there is a recognized mother and a father, accountable to the child and to each other.
Of course a relationship where people want to have and raise children, there must be commitments to safeguard the bringing up of the children , you don't want one party to move on without any regard to the responsibilities regarding the financial and other needs, so marriage laws safe guard the responsibilites of children, whilest in a girl freind boy friend relationship there are no such laws, mind in some countries there are no laws regarding marriages neither, On the other hand calling it by what ever name is okay as long as the laws are there to safeguard the rights of the children from such relationships, and of course of each other.
peace -
Yes, I tend to agree, in theory, but people will foolishly think they have committment, true intentions and loyalty even when they don't. How mature are you actually at the age of 13?
Salam Zulf
Allah only exists in theory, there is no hard evidence that He exists and we still believe in Him. Same with believing in the humanity of people, the kindness and love that all people theoratically possess. They are there in theory only, are we foolishly sticking to our beliefs? Is the reason to not believe because we cannot see it or find evidence for it?
It is all about what we choose to believe in. If a thirteen year old truly loves someone they truly believe it. If a person is "mature" enough has nothing to do with how they feel or believe. Just like us, we truly believe Allah exists but in His eyes we have absolutely no idea what we are talking about. How could we ever think that we can understand His creation? Is he stopping us because compared to Him we are immature? No, instead He is promoting our free thinking, our struggle to understand better. Hopefully when it is time to pass we have understood a little. The same is for love, hopefully when the time comes to start a family with babies and such we are "mature" enough to choose a partner wisely. Therefore we should not hinder the child from having this emotion called love because that will only stump him/her in the process of learning about it and what to look for. I sincerely hope my daughters and sons will be dumped and heartbroken by who they believe is the right man/woman in their life before they are mature enough to start a family........You gotta kiss a lot of frogs before you find your prince ....................Oh my God, that was the cheeziest thing I said in a long time...........
What is the fundamental reasons for Allah to put restraints on our sex life? Forget about health issues and breaking peoples hearts.....The main reason, the only reason that really counts is when we have sex (that includes adultery) 1)may result in an orphan 2)Our interest in sex may supersede our interest in Allah....... Number 2 is another issue so lets focus on number 1.
Who are to blame if two young people are not careful and happen to produce an orphan? Us.......we, the parents are to blame for not teaching our children about relationships and the committments and support that are included in sex. Does it work to forbid, ban and shun our childrens emotions? No.........Does it work to have an open dialouge and support them and teach them? Well.......it works better forbidding but not perfect.
The rest.......we can only pray they will be careful.....
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Allah only exists in theory, there is no hard evidence that He exists and we still believe in Him. Same with believing in the humanity of people, the kindness and love that all people theoratically possess. They are there in theory only, are we foolishly sticking to our beliefs? Is the reason to not believe because we cannot see it or find evidence for it?
I'm not a big fan of blind faith though
It is all about what we choose to believe in. If a thirteen year old truly loves someone they truly believe it. If a person is "mature" enough has nothing to do with how they feel or believe. Just like us, we truly believe Allah exists but in His eyes we have absolutely no idea what we are talking about. How could we ever think that we can understand His creation? Is he stopping us because compared to Him we are immature? No, instead He is promoting our free thinking, our struggle to understand better. Hopefully when it is time to pass we have understood a little. The same is for love, hopefully when the time comes to start a family with babies and such we are "mature" enough to choose a partner wisely. Therefore we should not hinder the child from having this emotion called love because that will only stump him/her in the process of learning about it and what to look for. I sincerely hope my daughters and sons will be dumped and heartbroken by who they believe is the right man/woman in their life before they are mature enough to start a family........You gotta kiss a lot of frogs before you find your prince )....................Oh my God, that was the cheeziest thing I said in a long time...........
D
What is the fundamental reasons for Allah to put restraints on our sex life? Forget about health issues and breaking peoples hearts.....The main reason, the only reason that really counts is when we have sex (that includes adultery) 1)may result in an orphan 2)Our interest in sex may supersede our interest in Allah....... Number 2 is another issue so lets focus on number 1.
True. There should be some practical reasons if we want to convince other people. Orphans, or children with single parents, is not a good thing for one's emotional development.
Who are to blame if two young people are not careful and happen to produce an orphan? Us.......we, the parents are to blame for not teaching our children about relationships and the committments and support that are included in sex. Does it work to forbid, ban and shun our childrens emotions? No.........Does it work to have an open dialouge and support them and teach them? Well.......it works better forbidding but not perfect.
This is my point. The biological urges are very strong... and when you reach a certain level, it is very difficult indeed to restrain oneself, simply due to biology. The less mature and experienced in life you are, the easier you may fall "victim" to the bodily urges while not being able to foresee possible consequences.
I also believe in open dialogs. Taboos and similar restrictions result in negative behaviour and never serve their intended purposes.
There is a difference between love and sex. There is actually no need to have sex in order to go through experiences of love and broken hearts. Our society is focused purely on sex and appearance, but not on healthy inter-personal relationships, so we should realize this difference between sex and love. Sometimes it seems people are propagating sex, while disregarding the love and relationship. What is the thing that people will learn from and grow from? Not sex. Sex is a skill, but it is not the foundation of anything. Sex won't teach you about relationships at all. It simply won't. Insisting on sex in the name of developing relationship skills is just an excuse, to have sex. One can have regular sex, while being more or less emotionally incompetent, or at least immature and a child in the mind.
The problem is that people think of sex as the main thing. People fail to see that sex is a level of relationship you reach once you already have a foundation of commitment. It doesn't start with sex. It starts with commitment and care. Sex comes after that. But this is not how society teach it. Society get more and more depleted of family values. The family is not just an archaic constellation that is outdated and going out of fashion. The family as structure provides so much strength and support... and alone is actually not strong. Society is pushing towards individualism in an unhealthy way, that makes us weak, alone and vulnerable to the "norms" propagated by those who propagate. We can be individualists in the context of a family structure. We don't have to choose. We can have both.
Random and casual sex, which is the style that is propagated and in fashion, is a thing of a society full of separated individuals. There is no strength in it, and it is called "free" just to give it credibility. "Freedom" is often used in the propagation of things that have nothing to do with real and actual freedom.
Peace!
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Salam Zulf
......You gotta kiss a lot of frogs before you find your prince )
peace
well not at all;
http//www.psychologies.co.uk/love/can-you-learn-to-love-anyone.html
I think we just need one frog........usualy.
and kissing too many frogs can give you aids.......terrible.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FileAIDS_and_HIV_prevalence.svg
This was just for info;
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Don't say things which aren't true.
Sorry es,
Of course it's not kissing but i thought it was easy to know what i meant.
http//kidshealth.org/teen/sexual_health/stds/AIDS.html
http//www.tip2000.com/health/aids.asp
How is HIV passed on?
HIV is passed on in the sexual fluids or blood of an HIV-positive person, so if infected blood or sexual fluid gets into your body, you can become infected. This usually happens by either having sexual intercourse with an HIV-positive person without using a condom or by sharing needles used to inject drugs with an HIV-positive person. People can also be born with HIV if their mother has HIV or get HIV through breastfeeding. A very small number of people get HIV by having medical treatment using infected blood transfusions.
HIV can't be caught by kissing, hugging or shaking hands with a person living with HIV, and it can't be transmitted by sneezes, door handles or dirty glasses.
How is this doing around the world
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FileAIDS_and_HIV_prevalence.svg
Just looking at the countries where it is minimum - it is just surprising, isn't it?
peace
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There is a difference between love and sex. There is actually no need to have sex in order to go through experiences of love and broken hearts. Our society is focused purely on sex and appearance, but not on healthy inter-personal relationships, so we should realize this difference between sex and love. Sometimes it seems people are propagating sex, while disregarding the love and relationship. What is the thing that people will learn from and grow from? Not sex. Sex is a skill, but it is not the foundation of anything. Sex won't teach you about relationships at all. It simply won't. Insisting on sex in the name of developing relationship skills is just an excuse, to have sex. One can have regular sex, while being more or less emotionally incompetent, or at least immature and a child in the mind.
The problem is that people think of sex as the main thing. People fail to see that sex is a level of relationship you reach once you already have a foundation of commitment. It doesn't start with sex. It starts with commitment and care. Sex comes after that. But this is not how society teach it. Society get more and more depleted of family values. The family is not just an archaic constellation that is outdated and going out of fashion. The family as structure provides so much strength and support... and alone is actually not strong. Society is pushing towards individualism in an unhealthy way, that makes us weak, alone and vulnerable to the "norms" propagated by those who propagate. We can be individualists in the context of a family structure. We don't have to choose. We can have both.
Random and casual sex, which is the style that is propagated and in fashion, is a thing of a society full of separated individuals. There is no strength in it, and it is called "free" just to give it credibility. "Freedom" is often used in the propagation of things that have nothing to do with real and actual freedom.
Salam Zulf
If you ever figure out how to say above quote so a teenager would understand you will be my hero )
Just looking at the countries where it is minimum - it is just surprising, isn't it?
Yeah the buddhist countries seem to have a very small HIV spread.......how amazing is that...........Oh and yeah the most catholic country in the world also has a really small percentage.......Thank God for giving the proper guidance to those non-muslim countries. (insert sarcastic smily)
So by bringing up HIV/AIDS you are telling us that there is a connection between the Quranic guidance by Allah and HIV? Quite a shaky argument because it is easy to refute.
http//www.nytimes.com/2006/08/08/world/middleeast/08saudi.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
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Sorry es,
Of course it's not kissing but i thought it was easy to know what i meant.
http//kidshealth.org/teen/sexual_health/stds/AIDS.html
http//www.tip2000.com/health/aids.asp
How is HIV passed on?
HIV is passed on in the sexual fluids or blood of an HIV-positive person, so if infected blood or sexual fluid gets into your body, you can become infected. This usually happens by either having sexual intercourse with an HIV-positive person without using a condom or by sharing needles used to inject drugs with an HIV-positive person. People can also be born with HIV if their mother has HIV or get HIV through breastfeeding. A very small number of people get HIV by having medical treatment using infected blood transfusions.
HIV can't be caught by kissing, hugging or shaking hands with a person living with HIV, and it can't be transmitted by sneezes, door handles or dirty glasses.
How is this doing around the world
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FileAIDS_and_HIV_prevalence.svg
Just looking at the countries where it is minimum - it is just surprising, isn't it?
peace
Don't patronise me.
Perhaps you would like to tell the wife whose husband has given H.I.V./A.I.D.S. to her that she shouldn't have kissed so many frogs.
Perhaps you would like to tell the resulting child(ren) of such a relationship that they shouldn't have kissed too many frogs.
Perhaps you would like to tell the "virgin girl" who that man slept with to cure his H.IV./A.I.D.S., and subsequently infected, that she shouldn't have kissed too many frogs.
God gave us brains for a purpose. Perhaps you should use yours before making such unsubstantiated, nonesensical claims. Apologies if that sounds harsh, but seriously, don't spread fallacy just to justify you point of view.
I don't have anything to add to the discussion of the thread, so I'll hop along on my way.
Salaam. peace
Sajda.
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Salam Zulf
If you ever figure out how to say above quote so a teenager would understand you will be my hero )
Yeah the buddhist countries seem to have a very small HIV spread.......how amazing is that...........Oh and yeah the most catholic country in the world also has a really small percentage.......Thank God for giving the proper guidance to those non-muslim countries. (insert sarcastic smily)
So by bringing up HIV/AIDS you are telling us that there is a connection between the Quranic guidance by Allah and HIV? Quite a shaky argument because it is easy to refute.
http//www.nytimes.com/2006/08/08/world/middleeast/08saudi.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
Come on Emil
Now you are saying it also, the religious practicing countries have the least HIV , of course it is primerily because of not tangling with too many different people and sticking with just one or so - the chances of becoming infected drop - isn't that the best option then? irrespective of whether that is in line with a quranic ayah or not?
So just to safeguard ones kids from this aufull disease, why not just teach our kids to behave and not get carried away with things.
peace
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Don't patronise me.
Perhaps you would like to tell the wife whose husband has given H.I.V./A.I.D.S. to her that she shouldn't have kissed so many frogs.
Perhaps you would like to tell the resulting child(ren) of such a relationship that they shouldn't have kissed too many frogs.
Perhaps you would like to tell the "virgin girl" who that man slept with to cure his H.IV./A.I.D.S., and subsequently infected, that she shouldn't have kissed too many frogs.
God gave us brains for a purpose. Perhaps you should use yours before making such unsubstantiated, nonesensical claims. Apologies if that sounds harsh, but seriously, don't spread fallacy just to justify you point of view.
I don't have anything to add to the discussion of the thread, so I'll hop along on my way.
Salaam. peace
Sajda.
Of course we can't tell them - it wasn't their fault, but we must learn why it happened to avoid it happening to us and others though.
Or should we be naive enough to let it effect others!
So isn't one or so partners the best?
peace
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of course it is primerily because of not tangling with too many different people and sticking with just one or so - the chances of becoming infected drop - isn't that the best option then? irrespective of whether that is in line with a quranic ayah or not?
So just to safeguard ones kids from this aufull disease, why not just teach our kids to behave and not get carried away with things.
peace
Salaam.
It is almost 4a.m. in the morning and I could be seeing things, but are you actually spouting this nonsense? Seriously? hmm
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Of course we can't tell them - it wasn't their fault, but we must learn why it happened to avoid it happening to us and others though.
Or should we be naive enough to let it effect others!
So isn't one or so partners the best?
peace
People having H.I.V. or A.I.D.S. has nothing to do with how many people they have had sex with. Stop using that as a defence for having a sole partner.
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Now you are saying it also, the religious practicing countries have the least HIV , of course it is primerily because of not tangling with too many different people and sticking with just one or so - the chances of becoming infected drop - isn't that the best option then? irrespective of whether that is in line with a quranic ayah or not?
So just to safeguard ones kids from this aufull disease, why not just teach our kids to behave and not get carried away with things.Salam brother/sister
Sorry I dont know so much about you handshake
Don't get me wrong here, of course I agree with you that we should safeguard ourselves and teach our kids about it. But what I am pointing out is that you heading in the direction where you are promoting religious righteousness as the cure to HIV.
And you are using statistics to prove your point which I find very misleading. Would you ever accept you had the disease if you knew the risk of you being stoned to death was imminent if the public would ever find out? Statistics are what is reported, what the reality is a completely different story. For example many people say Swedes are the most depressed in the world because of the high suicide rate. The truth is that Sweden is one of the few countries that actually report every suicide....Some countries have an amazingly low suicide rate but when you look a few columns down you can see the "accidental death" is very high....... hmm
Religion and good disease control are not connected. Japanase culture does not promote monogamy as islamic countries do, still they have a low percentage of HIV infections. It is more the contrary actually. Japanese sex tourists througout SE Asia are notorious and I have seen it myself. When I worked in China there were busloads of japanese men in the red light districts. Half of the brothels only served men from Japan...... Without japanese clients the brothels would go bankrupt.....
The Phillippines were awake enough to realize their vulnerablitity when the HIV epidemic took place in Thailand during the 80's. The government poured money into promoting the practice of safe sex but the church on the other hand was trying to make people stop using condoms......the church lost thank God. I know this because I lived in the centre of it all. I remember the almost Nazi-like propgaganda that spread over SE Asia when the Thai people were dropping like flies...and it worked. People got into practicing safe sex and the spread was controlled to some unfortunate countries.The spread of HIV has nothing to do with religion, it has to do with safe sex.
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Salam brother/sister
Sorry I dont know so much about you handshake
Don't get me wrong here, of course I agree with you that we should safeguard ourselves and teach our kids about it. But what I am pointing out is that you heading in the direction where you are promoting religious righteousness as the cure to HIV.
And you are using statistics to prove your point which I find very misleading. Would you ever accept you had the disease if you knew the risk of you being stoned to death was imminent if the public would ever find out? Statistics are what is reported, what the reality is a completely different story. For example many people say Swedes are the most depressed in the world because of the high suicide rate. The truth is that Sweden is one of the few countries that actually report every suicide....Some countries have an amazingly low suicide rate but when you look a few columns down you can see the "accidental death" is very high....... hmm
Religion and good disease control are not connected. Japanase culture does not promote monogamy as islamic countries do, still they have a low percentage of HIV infections. It is more the contrary actually. Japanese sex tourists througout SE Asia are notorious and I have seen it myself. When I worked in China there were busloads of japanese men in the red light districts. Half of the brothels only served men from Japan...... Without japanese clients the brothels would go bankrupt.....
The Phillippines were awake enough to realize their vulnerablitity when the HIV epidemic took place in Thailand during the 80's. The government poured money into promoting the practice of safe sex but the church on the other hand was trying to make people stop using condoms......the church lost thank God. I know this because I lived in the centre of it all. I remember the almost Nazi-like propgaganda that spread over SE Asia when the Thai people were dropping like flies...and it worked. People got into practicing safe sex and the spread was controlled to some unfortunate countries.The spread of HIV has nothing to do with religion, it has to do with safe sex.
But what I am pointing out is that you heading in the direction where you are promoting religious righteousness as the cure to HIV.
Thanks for the info Emil, i agree with it, but;
religious Righteousness is the main cure when rubber balloons are not available , isn't it? If the advanced paople of the world have found alternative methods to safeguard against aids good , but the majority of the world havn't as yet - to my knowledge, so it would be a grave error to say they can carry on doing things with any jo blogs, Just check out the advice of any doctor world over.
peace
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religious Righteousness is the main cure when rubber balloons are not available , isn't it? If the advanced paople of the world have found alternative methods to safeguard against aids good , but the majority of the world havn't as yet - to my knowledge, so it would be a grave error to say they can carry on doing things with any jo blogs, Just check out the advice of any doctor world over.
It is very true what you say, if safe sex utensils are not around then the only way to keep safe is abstinence. And I agree with you but I do not agree with the way you are promoting religious rightenousness. You are using stats about HIV and I am trying to say we need to teach our kids from day One how to have a healthy relationship with sex.
I do object to justifying religion-imposed abstinence by pointing at statistics and say "see, the pious people of the world have a lower percentage of HIV infections".
To me, the next step on that tactic will be "See, Allah is punishing the disbelievers by infecting them with HIV"
Don't want to fight 357, we agree but we just have different standpoints handshake
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I do object to justifying religion-imposed abstinence by pointing at statistics and say "see, the pious people of the world have a lower percentage of HIV infections".
To me, the next step on that tactic will be "See, Allah is punishing the disbelievers by infecting them with HIV"
we agree but we just have different standpoints handshake
As you rightly said if people don't have the utensils then the only way to be safe is abstinence.
We can't blame Allah for our mistakes, but sure some people might.
peace