Drawing inference for punishment for Blasphemy??
-
Salaamun alayka,
Blasphemy is a relative concept.
For example, saying Isa is the son of Allah is for me blasphemy but for others I commit blasphemy by saying Isa was just a normal human being.In The Quran there is this guideline about saying lies about Allah
1069 Say "Those who invent lies about God, they will not be successful."
1070 A short pleasure in this world, then to Us is their return and We will make them taste the severe retribution for what they were rejecting.and this about ridicule His ayaats
4140 And it has been sent down to you in the Book, that if you hear the revelations of God being rejected and mocked, then do not sit with them until they move on to a different narrative; if not, then you are like them. God will gather the hypocrites and the disbelievers in Hell all together.As far as I know fasad is also only punnished by Allah, not 100% sure though.
Salaam,
Bender -
Hi Everyone,
I think that "drawing inference" about a punishment is a dangerous proposition with the Quran. If it specifically states a punishment for a crime/sin, then so be it. Then it is clear. However, I view the Quran's punishment as do not punish harsher than what is stated. Not a minimum punishment. But saying that the Quran implicitly tells me that I should give someone the death penalty is dangerous. Because many verses could be misconstrued just so one could be oppressive or punish at will for almost anything. If you truly have submitted to Allah then you shouldn't want to oppress anyone. Remember all the versus about freeing slaves. Here I am "inferring" that Allah doesn't like oppression.
Just crazy inferences...
JewishDude
peace Salam, Shalom, Peace peace -
I do not see that the Qur'an has any problems to say what it wants to say clearly so that the reader would need to infere anything at all. If it is not stated, then we may infere as much as we please or reflect or think or whatever we want to do and may be decide that we should punish this or that this way or that we, but what must not be forgotten is that in that case it WOULD NOT BE THE QUR'AN, but we, human beings who reached that decision. It is one thing to legislate, another thing completely different to say that it is God who legislate. That is, what we would be legislating would have no authority except the authority we want to give it. Not, never, God's authority. God gives us plenty of room to legislate to all human being sof all ages, by no means we have the authority to restrict that room by any human inference, conjecture, reflection, reasoning or whatever.
Salaam
-
Salaam Dear Friends.
How would you respond to a question like this
"....There is no doubt that misusing or misapplication of any law is wrong whether the law pertains to blasphemy or some other issue. However, the question is should we simply reject the blasphemy law(s) on the grounds that Quran does not include Blasphemy among other punishable crimes.
Was it absolutely necessary that the punishment for blasphemy be prescribed in Quran ''explicitly'' before Islamic states could penalize blasphemous people? Does an earthly punishment for any crime necessarily have to be prescribed in Quran explicitly? In logic, there is something called '' Drawing Inference'' from a set of given statements. Is it possible that some things are implicitly stated in Quran rather than stated in explicit words?
There is a verse in Quran which talks about punishing those who spread ''Fisaad" or corruption on earth. What if an Islamic government infers based on the aforesaid verse a punishment for blasphemy arguing that the act is tantamount to causing disruption or fisaad on earth. After all, no matter what religion, when an act of insult is committed against anything sacred in any religion, it is a gross misconduct that has the power to cause disruption in society by hurting people's religious feelings and emotions. Pragmatically speaking, the act of blasphemy causes rash and anger among a huge number of people in a country where the act is committed. Shouldn't the perpetrator be punished for disturbing the peace in a country especially when the perpetrator commits this act knowingly and willfully? Yet, this is not to say that blasphemy should be punished by death.
Pragmatism is an approach that is becoming prevalent in legal systems across the world. Based on this approach, some acts are punished just based on the consequences which may result after the commission of the act. ...."
Thanks in advance !!
Mubashir
Its not about what the Quran states or not. Its about what contradicts explicit verses of the Quran and what God ordained as something that is under His authority and nobody elses.
1682 But if they turn away from you, your only duty is a clear delivery of the Message .
6107 Yet if God had so willed, they would not have ascribed Divinity to aught besides Him; hence, We have not made you their keeper, nor are you a guardian over them.
479-80 Say'Whatever good betides you is from God and whatever evil betides you is from your own self and that We have sent you to mankind only as a messenger and all sufficing is God as witness. Whoso obeys the Messenger, he indeed obeys God. And for those who turn away, We have not sent you as a keeper."
1128 He (Noah) said "O my people! think over it! If I act upon a clear direction from my Lord who has bestowed on me from Himself the Merciful talent of seeing the right way, a way which you cannot see for yourself, does it follow that we can force you to take the right path when you definitely decline to take it?
1753-54 And tell my servants that they should speak in a most kindly manner. Verily, Satan is always ready to stir up discord between men; for verily; Satan is mans foe .... Hence, We have not sent you with power to determine their Faith.
21107-109 (O Prophet?) 'We have not sent you except to be a mercy to all mankind" Declare, "Verily, what is revealed to me is this, your God is the only One God, so is it not up to you to bow down to Him?' But if they turn away then say, "I have delivered the Truth in a manner clear to one and all, and I know not whether the promised hour is near or far."
2267 To every people have We appointed ceremonial rites which they observe; therefore, let them not wrangle over this matter with you, but bid them to turn to your Lord. You indeed are rightly guided. But if they still dispute you in this matter, `God best knows what you do."
24.54. Say "Obey God, and obey the Messenger. but if ye turn away, he is only responsible for the duty placed on him and ye for that placed on you. If ye obey him, ye shall be on right guidance. The Messenger's duty is only to preach the clear (Message).
8821 22; And so, exhort them your task is only to exhort; you cannot compel them to believe.
4828 He it is Who has sent forth His Messenger with the Guidance and the Religion of Truth, to the end that tie make it prevail over every religion, and none can bear witness to the Truth as God does.
3616 17 (Three Messengers to their people) Said, "Our Sustainer knows that we have indeed been sent unto you, but we are not bound to more than clearly deliver the Message entrusted to us.'
3941 Assuredly, We have sent down the Book to you in right form for the good of man. Whoso guided himself by it does so to his own advantage, and whoso turns away from it does so at his own loss. You certainly are not their keeper.
426 48 And whoso takes for patrons others besides God, over them does God keep a watch. Mark, you are not a keeper over them. But if they turn aside from you (do not get disheartened), for We have not sent you to be a keeper over them; your task is but to preach ....
6412 Obey God then and obey the Messenger, but if you turn away (no blame shall attach to our Messenger), for the duty of Our Messenger is just to deliver the message.
6725 26 And they ask, "When shall the promise be fulfilled if you speak the Truth?" Say, "The knowledge of it is verily with God alone, and verily I am but a plain warner."
10.99-100. If it had been thy Lord's will, they would all have believed,- all who are on earth! wilt thou then compel mankind, against their will, to believe! No soul can believe, except by the will of God, and He will place doubt (or obscurity) on those who will not understand
28.55-56 And when they hear vain talk, they turn away therefrom and say "To us our deeds, and to you yours; peace be to you we seek not the ignorant," It is true thou wilt not be able to guide whom thou lovest; but God guides those whom He will and He knows best those who receive guidance.
109.1-6 Say O ye that reject Faith,! I worship not that which ye worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship, And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship, To you be your Way, and to me mine.
2256 There is no compulsion in religion, for the right way is clearly from the wrong way. Whoever therefore rejects the forces of evil and believes in God, he has taken hold of a support most unfailing, which shall never give way, for God is All Hearing and Knowing
-
It is a given that if someone bad mouths the blessed Rasool or the Quran, Muslims get extremely agitated. They respond by wanting to hurt/kill the culprit. Killing someone is an extreme punishment that may only be applied if an individual is a gross or a repeat offender.
We may want to legislate something like "Hate Laws" making it a crime to bad mouth any of Allah's Messenger or His Books. What amounts to blasphemy must be clearly defined so there is no ambiguity.
In any case, to take the law in your own hands to punish/hurt/kill an alleged blasphemer is not the way to go. A certain procedure must be followed where an accused is offered a defence, making sure he is properly educated in Islamic values and laws.
In Pakistan, people are accused and killed for blasphemy, in fact an entire neighbourhood of Christians was burnt down recently, just based on an accusation of one individual. This is anarchy and gives rise to personal vendettas and settling scores for other reasons.
-
It is a given that if someone bad mouths the blessed Rasool or the Quran, Muslims get extremely agitated. They respond by wanting to hurt/kill the culprit. Killing someone is an extreme punishment that may only be applied if an individual is a gross or a repeat offender.
We may want to legislate something like "Hate Laws" making it a crime to bad mouth any of Allah's Messenger or His Books. What amounts to blasphemy must be clearly defined so there is no ambiguity.
In any case, to take the law in your own hands to punish/hurt/kill an alleged blasphemer is not the way to go. A certain procedure must be followed where an accused is offered a defence, making sure he is properly educated in Islamic values and laws.
In Pakistan, people are accused and killed for blasphemy, in fact an entire neighbourhood of Christians was burnt down recently, just based on an accusation of one individual. This is anarchy and gives rise to personal vendettas and settling scores for other reasons.
"We may want to legislate something like "Hate Laws" making it a crime to bad mouth any of Allah's Messenger or His Books."
I am not sure what bad mouth means but the Quran is filled with references where prophets are being ridiculed and mocked and accused of many sorts of stuff. The Quran made sure that the unbelievers have their say and their points of view are being reflected. The Quran believes in freedom of speech and allowing the others to have their say. However the Quran never used abusive or vulgur language when presenting the unbelievers point of view.Prophets in the Quran were accused of being mad, liars, and agenda driven. The concept of monotheism was often ridiculed by the unbelievers in the Quran. But the Quran never used language that is considered swear words (profanity) .
Freedom of religion and speech in the Quran is sancrosanct and this remains the biggest difference between the Quran and sectarian Islam.
-
I know at one time, probably still, according to the law, in Egypt, for insult or disrespect for somebody else's religion, be it Islam, Christianity or Mosaic, could be prosecuted. O do not know whether it was because of the law or because of people being brought up in that spirit, that religion and people's religious beliefs and feelings deserve respect, or because of both, it didn't occur to anybody to do such a thing.
I get the impression that in Pakistan blasphemy laws and honour killings are most of the time a cover for other sinister plots, like covetousness, or simply a way to instill hate and inner fighting among the people, that is, a purposeful plot to disintegrate a country. Even if people are respectful, you throw in an incident and blow it up or perpetrate a horrendous crime, and there you ignite bad feelings and wish for rquitals and start the ball rolling. Then keep throwing in as many incidents as you may need to keep it rolling and getting bigger.
Bad laws may be a help, but even without bad laws the end of desintegrating a society can be achieved if that society is not conscious of its own values and of the dangers they are exposed to.
Respect is deifinitely a value. So is patience and determination not to let oneself be dragged into base feelings and passions.
Salaam
-
Salaam,
I think we should have some tolerance for disrespectful utterances and let God deliver the punishment. Follow the Quranic recommendations and always forgive if you can. Being merciful is always the best option for an ordinary human.
Enemies of Islam use Muhammad as a target since it is the most vulnerable spot for many Muslims, even if it should hurt the same targeting any other messenger really, but everyone is stuck with Muhammad somehow.
It is just immature to paint an ancient innocent man black to make people today upset. It is laughable to be upset about such silly behavior, but people seem to touchy when it comes to Muhammad.
To laugh at the a book people like is also strange.
I think you should let them just have their silly utterances and live in their unrighteousness. God will take care of them, so do not bother.
God bless you
-
I think you nailed it down Huruf when you said
"....or because of people being brought up in that spirit, that religion and people's religious beliefs and feelings deserve respect, or because of both, it didn't occur to anybody to do such a thing. ..."
It must start at home and in the education system. People must be taught to respect, tolerance, compassion, and getting along.
Pakistan seems to be a unique country where people are ultra sensitive to anybody disrespecting the blessed Rasool and where alleged instances of Insults to the Rasool occur on a regular basis!!
I agree that a lot of this has to do with personal vendettas, settling scores, developers wanting to move into prime real estate areas, etc.
Thank you all for contributing to this discussion which I find most informative.
-
In fact if I feel impatient when people are disrespectful or downright aggressive and deliberately offending with words, it is because of them, not because of me or the Prophet or Maryam or whagtever. Alhamdulilalh the Prophet is ok, all servants of God, are ok and safe, no danger hovers over them... it is those who insult and offend who deserve pity. In fact it is so laughable... ?What? Are they going to make the Prophet or anybody else not to have existed just because they do not like it? It is very silly, very pityful. I ignore it just for their own sake, because I do not want to make them feel their utter ridicule.
The only offend themselves.
Salaam
-
Salaam huruf,
I understand it is frustrating, but be calm.
They are doing Shaitaan' s work without perceiving, let them wait and they will receive their penalty, just patiently wait along with them and live your righteous life in the way of God.
Read surah 36 ayat 6-10 and feel some relaxing words. They will just temporarily rejoice, but soon you may be the one laughing.
No need to seek revenge on the poor Hellbound people, aye?
Let them be as long as they are not oppressive or attack you.
God bless you
-
I think you nailed it down Huruf when you said
"....or because of people being brought up in that spirit, that religion and people's religious beliefs and feelings deserve respect, or because of both, it didn't occur to anybody to do such a thing. ..."
It must start at home and in the education system. People must be taught to respect, tolerance, compassion, and getting along.
Pakistan seems to be a unique country where people are ultra sensitive to anybody disrespecting the blessed Rasool and where alleged instances of Insults to the Rasool occur on a regular basis!!
I agree that a lot of this has to do with personal vendettas, settling scores, developers wanting to move into prime real estate areas, etc.
Thank you all for contributing to this discussion which I find most informative.
As Quranist we are to follow the Quranic verses regarding any matter and not stipulate laws based on what we consider appropriate or not.
-
Hi Bigmo,
I agree with you. But I would like to ask a question to everyone and see what they think.
If the Quran prescribes the punishment to a crime, does that mean we have to use that punishment? Or can we use a lesser punishment and only use the prescribed punishment in extreme cases? Hence we should use mercy to temper the punishment?
This is a problem Judaism faced long ago. The conclusion was that the punishment was to be no harsher than the prescribed punishment.
Just my crazy thoughts and questions...
JewishDude
peace Salam, Shalom, Peace peace -
Salaam Jewish Dude,
In my opinion, you should use every possible excuse to pardon the culprit if this person honestly repent and regret the crime.
If not possible, you should punish him appropriately according to the Quran.
The Quran tells us quite throughly how to deal with criminals, and to show mercy is most righteous in God?s eyes.
But I think that regarding blasphemy it is best to be patient and keep calm, instead of simply judging someone who's fate would be determined by God anyway, and God is the best judge. To be honest, for someone who simply mocks and ridicules the religion, it is best to simply let God handle it.
A warm and forgiving community will probably cure the criminal by showing him mercy and perhaps offer him rehabilitation. Many times the criminal has some sore background that causes him to commit crimes. The death penalty does not feel like a peaceful solution to someone's crime, and sometimes you have to understand the criminal too. Desperation, starvation, hopelessness, bankruptcy, can all cause one to fall to the dark side of the law. Offer talks, financial help, offer to bring the person into the community would be more righteous than simply sending the person off to Hell.
Of course, some people refuse to repent even if it means facing death, but yet you have tried.
To summarize my opinion, I feel you should offer counsel for the criminal and rehabilitation rather than a simple prison sentence or spanking. A criminal seldom go to a good life just by serving a prison sentence, you have to look at the underlying causes for this behavior such as I stated above. Alienation, starvation, family background issues, money problems, all of them may cause unlawful behavior.
An Islamic community should try to help this stray brother on a straight path instead of putting him further down.
Of course this is completely a political aspect, but in our sense it is following God's will.
Finally, I would like to say that in most verses with a penalty, the following phrase says that if the criminal repents, then you may be merciful. And that this is the most righteous deed.
For a person who does not care at all, bring on the punishment.
Hope my gibberish helped. Most that I said is inspired by my interpretation of the Quran.
God bless you
-
Hi Bigmo,
I agree with you. But I would like to ask a question to everyone and see what they think.
If the Quran prescribes the punishment to a crime, does that mean we have to use that punishment? Or can we use a lesser punishment and only use the prescribed punishment in extreme cases? Hence we should use mercy to temper the punishment?
This is a problem Judaism faced long ago. The conclusion was that the punishment was to be no harsher than the prescribed punishment.
Just my crazy thoughts and questions...
JewishDude
peace Salam, Shalom, Peace peaceCan you cite examples? In the Quran justice is to be proportional (eye for an eye). For murder the Quran says soul for a soul but allowed exile from the community as the lowest ceiling of punishment. But the prunishment can not exceed the crime. Deterence or crime prevention is not Quranic. Only proportional justice. Judaism allowed disporportionate punishment (thousand eye for an eye) and so did Islam (eye for an eye lash).
In the Quran we are told if someone does good to you do the same or better, and if someone does bad to you do the same or less but its better to forgive. At all circumstances the punishment should never exceed the crime. Apples for apples and oranges for oranges.