Learning from modern jewish history....to go forward.
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Hello JD,
I am trying to start a dialogue with this post. There are some really good ideas here but how do you make them reality? That is my approach. I think you do need some sort of strong organisation in order to make this successful. I know people don't like to have rules from people telling them what to do but people do need to know things. Such as what are the pillars if any? What are major sins? How do people do Shahada? What about Zakat? How do people pray? Someone needs to give some clear options that help one know what to do. Remember I would imagine you would have loads of seekers show up. How do you tell them what they need to do? Maybe there is a thread on this somewhere.
Brother, personally, I am not interested in making a new sect and I am happy to be remain a Muslim, inshaAllah.
About the pillars that you are talking, everybody has to study and follow what/where Allah guides him. InshaAllah, by doing this, one will be ON the correct path. Then he can proceed further by Allah's help/permission.
2856
2856 You cannot guide whom you love. But it is Allah who guides whom He wills; and He is fully aware of those who receive the guidance.7178
7178 Whoever Allah guides, then he is the guided one; and whoever He misguides, then these are the losers.2120
2120 Neither the Jews nor the Nazarenes will be pleased with you until you follow their creed. Say The guidance is the guidance of Allah. And if you follow their desires after the knowledge that has come to you, then there is none who can help or protect you against Allah.May Allah guide us all towards the Correct path.
Mohammed M. Khan -
People coming in to learn about QA have the same questions regardless of which sect, we can see the examples on this forum. If you're coming in from a liberal/atheistic/agnostic background, you have a different set of questions and so on according to what you know etc. I can understand the points raised by the OP as being something that would quicken the momentum of a "group" but at the same time we need to understand that the mindset/way of thinking to get somewhere is extremely important. This is the core issue...this is what we need to sell if nothing else. And the good part is that it is universally practical/useful even if someone decides "religion" is not for them etc.
I come from a sunni background, but I never really discarded thinking/logic/reasoning throughout...this made me a "moderate"; a liberal if you will. Now obviously some think that these labels mean ignoring/doing away with/twisting part of the quran to make it more palatable...and sure, it might be true in a lot of cases if one doesn't want to go further. Who remembers picking up conventional translations and going whoa at the women beating verse? What did I do? Honestly, I didn't think it was right and put it away from my mind and being a teenager at the time clearly meant I had better things to do than ponder upon weird stuff that everyone else said stood true, and I couldn't really question anything because I didn't have any "religious" training and once I talked and read more it would all somehow make sense. Or it would be a case of separating logic/reasoning from faith which actually equates to operating on a purely emotional level. Thinking need not apply.
Now, if I had the internet back then, well I did but it was used for downloading metallica off of napster not searching for religious stuff but anyways, if I had this website it would be awesome...if I had a support network around me, it would be awesomer, if I had a community that actively met and did good stuff around the world it would be even awesomer...so I can understand the attempt to want to have something that will spread through the world like a plague of locusts and stuff. I would love it. The thing is...which happens in every group, the mechanics often come down to actives and passives. We will always have the passives, those are the majority everywhere in any group that has a following. The actives need to do stuff right, make it as universal as possible, as basic as possible for unification purposes. The con to this is the inherent downside of splinter groups who will get more specific and will set themselves apart. The thing is, if one wants to turn the tide, you need to spread yourself...sitting on islands is not going to do the trick. You can have this website on the internets but having groups that are well organised and if they stick to the basics like mentioned, it would be relatively easier to grow and spread.
What I wanted to say, and instead rambled on about various things going on in my mind while reading the thread is that these passives will have trivial questions. People in general love trivia, they love gossip, they love stories and how to cut their fingernails the right way...you can't get rid of this desire. What you can do is offer an alternative that will stick to the basics of say god alone and allow for individual quirks...the basics have to address the issues that are universally accepted like human rights, education, charity and so on for example while letting them poach their eggs dancing around it widdershins if they so choose. The key is good fruitful growth that will not hinder/harm others but is actually geared to helping and not a lot in a group will be the end all be all geniuses who do/think everything the right way. At the end of the day, if there's a group out there using the universal principles in the quran but individually they have different opinions on different verses, I don't care really. It's a losing battle to think everyone will think the same way, might as well factor that in before it's even an issue which it will be thus the bypass to basics and leaving the specifics to the individual.
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I hear what everyone is saying and I see now where you are coming from.
I am not saying make a new sect. I am saying is that a Quran Alone group is a phenomenal idea. From an outside perspective it is a way to unify various people among many sects. Don't separate yourselves by welcoming everyone. However you all are free thinkers who have thought through many ideas and give people a forum in which to debate these ideas. What I am talking about a movement (not a sect) that seeks to train people to be free thinkers. But sometimes to be able to think freely you need several options to choose from. As soon as one sees there are many acceptable ways to pray, then they will be very interested in thinking of other ways. Furthermore it shows them that there isn't just one acceptable way.
I mean if you don't want to have a movement that could transform peoples lives increase their faith and do real social justice then thats fine with me. Just wanted to let you know it has been done before with Reform movement in Judaism. And it started with people just like you.
Peace, Shalom, Salam
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I don't know much about the reform movement in Judaism but I agree with you in general, it's essentially what I've been saying. Peace.
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That is just one aspect mmkhan, we're discussing others as well.
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What I wanted to say, and instead rambled on about various things going on in my mind while reading the thread is that these passives will have trivial questions. People in general love trivia, they love gossip, they love stories and how to cut their fingernails the right way...you can't get rid of this desire. What you can do is offer an alternative that will stick to the basics of say god alone and allow for individual quirks...the basics have to address the issues that are universally accepted like human rights, education, charity and so on for example while letting them poach their eggs dancing around it widdershins if they so choose. The key is good fruitful growth that will not hinder/harm others but is actually geared to helping and not a lot in a group will be the end all be all geniuses who do/think everything the right way. At the end of the day, if there's a group out there using the universal principles in the quran but individually they have different opinions on different verses, I don't care really. It's a losing battle to think everyone will think the same way, might as well factor that in before it's even an issue which it will be thus the bypass to basics and leaving the specifics to the individual.
Fully agreed. Honestly, unity is overrated. It needs to be said. Agree on the basics, and leave the details up to individuals.
There's a fine line between unity and groupthink.
Nothing wrong with difference of opinion.
O people, We created you from a male and female, and We made you into nations and tribes, that you may know one another. Surely, the most honorable among you in the sight of God is the most righteous. God is Knowledgeable, Expert. -- 4913
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I think what JewishDude has set out above is a smart and perceptive strategy; one which is pragmatic and within probable reach.
I would like to make 3 points
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Structure. I have always associated a Quran-alone way of life with an unorganised and dispersed network of adherents. By "unorganised," I do not mean "lacking the skills of organisation," rather, I mean a lack of centralisation. This is primarily because we have no central religious figurehead. We study the Quran for ourselves, and we implement it for ourselves; hence a need for neither centralisation, nor congregation. As for propagation, I have always imagined each one of us playing their part to propagate the Quran's message; personally, this is what I have been doing for the past 10 years. I use appropriate circumstances and suitable opportunities in conversation to discuss the Quran's message with anyone. What we currently have is a sort of anarcho-Quranism, where the focus is on individual work; this form of organisation (or lack thereof) has its limits, and is inherently incapable of serving a community-level role.
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Support. As our numbers increase, by the grace of God, we must begin to pay regard to the needs of new-comers whom will undoubtedly need support. Their needs, be it social or ideological, are, for the most part, only truly satisfied by community-level services. Not forgetting, that a pronounced and manifestly publicized community presence of a Quran-alone centre or support network, will surely arouse an investigation by curious minds about the Quran-alone way of life. Something similar has already been established by the Submitters of Tuscon, Arizona. They, along with Dr Khalifa, established United Submitters International. They currently have chapters in the States, London, Paris, Nigeria, and many others. I have attended one of their meetings and it focused solely on Quran study. I love those guys and I consider them my brethren; I felt a warm sense of belonging and brotherhood when I sat with them. But I think they lack a key element which JewishDude emphasised, alas, it is egalitarianism.
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Scope. As JewishDude mentioned, egalitarianism is key. Inclusivity is the spirit of equality. I think most members of this forum, and Quran-alone people in general, are reasonably tolerant of even the most extreme views. We have God to thank for making us a "middle" community. In any community, being able to tolerate the disparity of beliefs, religious or otherwise, is key to the durability of co-operation and to the strength of unity, "E pluribus unum."
For the time being, our community exists in cyberspace. This website, and similar websites, offer support to new-comers and help us in our dialogue and in the exchange of our ideas. It has gone a long way to bring us all together into a sort of pseudo-community, for that I am thankful to the administrator's of this site, and I am ever thankful to God.
Perhaps we are still at the stage of infantile growth, and the flowering season has not yet come upon us, so we have found no reason to organise.
Still, perhaps in the coming years the demographics will change substantially, this thread is a heads-up for that time.
Thanks to Jewishdude for this thread, his input is greatly valued.
Usamah
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Salaam,
Another prominent problem is that we are so spread out all over the world.
We should not be so divided, there is only one Message. It is mainly the Salat that divides us, even if that should not be a big issue. We should keep in our minds that God's religion is pretty "easy", only three fundamental criteria
- Believe in God alone
- Believe in the Hereafter
- Be a righteous person
The other details in the Quran are recommendations for a peaceful life and to be able to fulfill criteria no. 3.
At least I felt less lonely when I was able to turn my wife to the light side.
God bless you
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Hi Everyone,
First off I love the discussion on this site. There is an amazing variety of discussion and that is what is motivating this topic. I also would like to say that I am a Jew, who if conditions were right could see converting to Quran Alone.
Just some thoughts that could help this group become more than it is.
Peace. Shalom. Salam.
How do you define a Jew?
Anyways the Quranist movement is not the same a reform Judaism. Its more like Karaite Judaism. Reform Judaism in my mind has failed. Kind of like how Arab liberalism is failing.
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Salaam Jewish Dude,
Remember the Path is an individual one and you should not be limited by your people to reach the Light. It is not your people and that people, they are either following God's religion or not.
Hope you understand my short reminder.
God bless you
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Hi Man of Faith,
I agree. However in my interactions here with other free-minders it seems as though they wish to have a community which to rely on for support. These were just my thoughts in how to go about this. If people want to do their own thing then that is great. If people want a community, then they need some outlet for that.
How do I define a Jew? One who identifies with the Jewish people either through association or heritage.
No the Quranist movement isn't like Reform Judaism. I don't think it should be. However I was hoping that if this group wanted to form a community, they could look at how others were successful about forming theirs. Of course I would say that a Karaite Jew would be accepted whole heartedly in a Reform congregation. Reform basically says do what works best for you in keeping with tradition.
Just my crazy thoughts...
JewishDude
peace Salam, Shalom, Peace peace -
Reform Judaism basically says do what works best for you in keeping with tradition.
Hello @JewishDude,
does that imply that that tradition is right, or the correct one?
Thank you.
PS
(I am of an opinion that one should take advantage of all the spiritual possibilities one wishes since God Himself also gave us so many Ways and Paths towards Him), and I agree with your sentence from the initial postTry to do what is meaningful that connects you to God.
However, I would like to ask you something, and I hope you will excuse me for asking you this question, (I wished to ask you this long time ago, even since I started following some of your very good posts) -where are you now in relation to Reform Judaism, and -why do you have the need to engage with Islam and the Qur'an?
Is it because of some lack in Judaism, or just giving yourself more possibilities for richer spiritual experiences?
Or, is it because of some intellectual challenge of comparison?
Please feel free not to answer the question if you do not wish to, and please forgive me if you find this question inappropriate for whatever reason. Thank you.Peace be with you.
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Remember the Path is an individual one and you should not be limited by your people to reach the Light. It is not your people and that people, they are either following God's religion or not.
Hope you understand my short reminder.
God bless you
Hello @Man of Faith,
Thank you for your post.
I appreciate your (short) reminder hugely!
Those words are very important in my humble opinion, thank you.God bless you.
Peace and thank you.
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I think this is very interesting and an important problem that has to be solved.
We are so unbelivable divided over everything. Salat, Zakah, Khums (841), fasting/sawm, calender, hajj, halal food, ...
I have never seen anyone or anything which can be as divided and spread out as the people here, even though the Quran clearly says to hold strictly by God's rope and not to divide ourselves.
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Hi Man of Faith,
I agree. However in my interactions here with other free-minders it seems as though they wish to have a community which to rely on for support. These were just my thoughts in how to go about this. If people want to do their own thing then that is great. If people want a community, then they need some outlet for that.
How do I define a Jew? One who identifies with the Jewish people either through association or heritage.
No the Quranist movement isn't like Reform Judaism. I don't think it should be. However I was hoping that if this group wanted to form a community, they could look at how others were successful about forming theirs. Of course I would say that a Karaite Jew would be accepted whole heartedly in a Reform congregation. Reform basically says do what works best for you in keeping with tradition.
Just my crazy thoughts...
JewishDude
peace Salam, Shalom, Peace peaceI personally believe its way too early and how things will go is way beyond our ability to predict as this movement will grow and only God knows how it will evolve and develop. It is way too early for us to even to try to contemplate its path. We are in the end pioneers who are planting seeds for later generations to grow on. There will be no doubt many influences along the way. This movement will influence how the Islamic world will move forward and even the Jewish community. Historically the Jewish community were heavily influenced by development in the Islamic world. The rise of the Mutaziltes led to a rise in Karaite Judaism in the past. At one point Karaite Judaism represented 90% of the Jewish community. Today it has become marginal but might see a rise as the Quranist rise.
Reform Judaism suffers from the same problem Arab liberalism has. They do not have an alternative interpretation but what they have is a secular interpretation. They are both seen as unathentic by the respective communities. The Muslims see liberals as too Western influenced and followed by people who are not religious and many Jews see Reform Judaism as diaspora Judaism followed by many Jews who want to appear assimilated in non Jewish (Gentile) societies.
But anyways I think its way too early to determine how this Quranist persuasion will develop. Many will enter and there will be many influences and future events will shape many things. In the end however history has its own way of developing things often without the consent of man.
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I think this is very interesting and an important problem that has to be solved.
We are so unbelivable divided over everything. Salat, Zakah, Khums (841), fasting/sawm, calender, hajj, halal food, ...
I have never seen anyone or anything which can be as divided and spread out as the people here, even though the Quran clearly says to hold strictly by God's rope and not to divide ourselves.
Salaam wa'alaikum friends,
Maybe some things will be necessarily divided.
For instance, if you are a Muslim, you will agree that Salat is important. We may disagree, per our views, HOW to perform Salat, but I think WHAT Salat is and it's importance is a concept that is agreed upon.
Look at the Zakah per the Qur'an. In hadith, we are given an exact amount of wealth to give. In the Qur'an we are told to give however much we can spare. For each person this is going to be DIFFERENT. Really, if you think about it, giving the Zakah as per the Qur'an is a VERY personal test! It is not necessarily bad that it is different and personal. One thing that you and I will both agree upon is this giving Zakat, being charitable and good, is a virtuous thing!
Sometimes we may differ, but that doesn't mean that we are compromising our agreements over the central tenets of Islam. Maybe our belief that we need to agree on EVERYTHING and do everything exactly alike is an antiquated one that we should challenge.
And at the end of the day, if you are a Muslim, no matter HOW you practice your prayers and giving the alms and hajj, you and I will both stand face to face, join hands and say "There is no God but Allah!" and I believe THAT is the most important tenet of this faith to hold on firmly to.
Just a thought!
Edit And to the OP, you mentioned getting together in person. I agree with that. I think also though that many people who hold these ideas unfortunately live in parts of the world where doing such a thing would put them and their families into danger sadly. I consider myself lucky to live in the USA where I can state my beliefs in relative peace. I've been wondering if I should reach out to others in my city to form some kind of forum... I don't think we should branch out to a different "sect", Islam is Islam imo, but a safe space for people to bring their ideas and find comfort in one another's physical presence would be nice. You'd be amazed how many people share some of our views and just need an outlet that is safe and free of judgment. And you know if I'm involved in a group, there is gonna be yummy food AND good ideas!
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Hi Everyone,
Peachy you are 100% on point. This is excellent. We need more people who are interested in embracing the differences so that we can come together.
Andantino, the reason Jews reject Jesus is that he didn't complete the mission of the messiah. The messiah is supposed to install a king in Jerusalem and there will be peace and more importantly, the whole world will realize the G-d of the Jews is the true G-d and worship him. Don't get hung up on the details of exactly who they were looking for. But you should see that we don't have world peace and not everyone agrees that the G-d of the Jews is the true G-d. As for Muhammad??? There is no consistent response to him. My personal opinion is that Jews don't accept Muhammed as a prophet since the Rabbis "closed the door to prophecy" right after Jesus. However they dated it before Jesus so that he couldn't be a prophet.
I think that Muhammed is a prophet who is teaching the same message that preceding prophets taught. Since I was raised as a Reform Jew I have problems with Hadith just like I have problems with Talmud. I don't like people telling me what to believe/behave and then judging me on it. With that said... I agree with a lot of Hadith and Talmud. I just don't consider it binding. To me the Hadith shows me how people have approached understanding the Quran. That doesn't mean I have to agree with them. But understanding how people have thought about it adds color and flavor to the way I understand it, even when I disagree with them.
For example... To me the prohibition on music is insane. It is sooooo derived that it is impossible to believe that Allah doesn't want us to listen to music. I understand where the prohibition came from and how someone could arrive at that conclusion. I just do a sanity check (which I never claim to be sane) and it doesn't pass.
Just my crazy thoughts...
JewishDude
peace Salam, Shalom, Peace peace -
Andantino, the reason Jews reject Jesus is that he didn't complete the mission of the messiah. The messiah is supposed to install a king in Jerusalem and there will be peace and more importantly, the whole world will realize the G-d of the Jews is the true G-d and worship him. Don't get hung up on the details of exactly who they were looking for. But you should see that we don't have world peace and not everyone agrees that the G-d of the Jews is the true G-d. As for Muhammad??? There is no consistent response to him. My personal opinion is that Jews don't accept Muhammed as a prophet since the Rabbis "closed the door to prophecy" right after Jesus. However they dated it before Jesus so that he couldn't be a prophet.
Some Jews (infact most Jews) LOVE Jesus during Jesus lifetime, the guy along with his cousin was a superstar rock duo, a celebrity in his time.
Afterwards the 'authority' kicks in and launch a negative propaganda against them..Thus the statement of "Jews reject Jesus" (and his cousin John on the backing vocals) is NOT a correct statement.
RABBANICAL JUDAISM reject Jesus and John
That's more correct statement.The same goes with Muhammad..
As a Jew you should by now understand that the Quran is a JEWISH BOOK WRITTEN IN ARABIC LANGUAGE.
With so many tales on Moses, Solomon, David and other Jewish figures, it doesn't take a genius to conclude that the book was written with Jews as the main audience.In the same manner if you read a book which told many tales about Guan Yu, Liu Bei, Confucius, Lao Tse written in English.
You'll definitely say that it is a CHINESE BOOK WRITTEN IN ENGLISH LANGUAGE.Thus the statement of "Jews do not accept Muhammad" is not correct either.
RABBANICAL JUDAISM reject Muhammad
That's more correct statement.Salam / Peace