Sexual Consent
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Salaam,
I have heard over and over that in marriage a woman must sexually please her husband even if she doesn't want to. To me this is nonsense and I remember watching that short film Submission and they used verses from the quran and one was to show that rape was ok (this was from the filmmaker's pov). My question is, are there any verses in the quran that hint at or discuss sexual consent? Where does this idea of consent fit in? Any thoughts are much appreciated. Thanks.
Salaam
Your wives are as a tilth unto you; so approach your tilth when or how ye will; but do some good act for your souls beforehand; and fear Allah. And know that ye are to meet Him (in the Hereafter), and give (these) good tidings to those who believe. 2223
If we consider how a farmer looks after his tilth, he prepares the soil, waters it, sows it, than he protects it against astray animals, birds and climate conditions. According to the Ayat it is man who is doing more work to please the woman.
Peace
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Salaam again,
I wanted to quickly thank all of you who responded thus far (will so a long response when logged on to my computer...). This question came about because I started reading Sexual Ethics and Islam by Kecia Ali and was wanting some more insight. Havin finished the book I didn't get this question answered (from the book) and got the feeling that female consent is not something I will find in the Quran either. This is disappointing to me ( will elaborate further later... -
Salaam again,
I wanted to quickly thank all of you who responded thus far (will so a long response when logged on to my computer...). This question came about because I started reading Sexual Ethics and Islam by Kecia Ali and was wanting some more insight. Havin finished the book I didn't get this question answered (from the book) and got the feeling that female consent is not something I will find in the Quran either. This is disappointing to me will elaborate further later...Have n't they consented by marrying each other?
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Salaam again,
I wanted to quickly thank all of you who responded thus far (will so a long response when logged on to my computer...). This question came about because I started reading Sexual Ethics and Islam by Kecia Ali and was wanting some more insight. Havin finished the book I didn't get this question answered (from the book) and got the feeling that female consent is not something I will find in the Quran either. This is disappointing to me ( will elaborate further later...Why do you make two different issues of male consent and female consent?
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Hi Everyone,
While I oppose anyone being forced to do anything in marriage, I do think this is a good question. The main reason is that both partners need to be keenly aware of the others needs and desires. If one partner refuses to have sex, then they are saying the other partner's needs and desires are not important. This can lead to disaster. One partner could go astray or become resentful. If in marriage we are to grow in love and caring for one another it has to be both partners giving to the other for the other's happiness. If we neglect this they we are not doing our part in keeping our partner away from sin.
Just my crazy thoughts...
JewishDude
peace Salam, Shalom, Peace peace -
Why do you make two different issues of male consent and female consent?
I guess I was looking at it this way because from my understanding it seems like the Quran is more andro centric. It seems like there are more verses addressing men than women which I think I can understand given the context of the time period that the quran was revealed. Also seems like when concerning this issue men are the active ones while women are passive, they are the ones being acted upon. A couple examples would be the verse saying women are a tilth or the one regarding menstration. They're directed to men about women.
Just some thoughts. I understand a majority of people get the whole consent thing. I'm just trying to develope an argument using the quran against those who say there is no rape in marriage which is something I disagree with completely.
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Most ayas are addressed universally, to males and females, those who are addressed to men is because they need it more, they have more things to watch for in their behaviour. Like the mentruation thing, it is women who mentruate, so it is men who can bother women not the other way around, so they are told to not make intimations to women when that can bother them. It does not say that women should not make them. They are better judges of how they feel themselves. Is like the the 24.31 it is women who are told not to show off their adornments or beauty because it is them that are more prone to abuse physical appearance in social mores, precisely because of their usually subservient conditioning in society. Men arwe not told not to show off their beauty, rather not to show off their force.
As to consent, marriage is sex, consent to marriage is consent to sex, and must there must be consent to marriage and there must be consent to sex, because they are the same thing, and if there is the need for consent the first time it is engaged, why should not there be afterwaords, and precisely the aya of the tilth, where it says to send good works before approaching the woman, do you think that using force or using manipulation or using any other form of compulsion is to send good works?
Salaam
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Like the mentruation thing, it is women who mentruate, so it is men who can bother women not the other way around, so they are told to not make intimations to women when that can bother them. It does not say that women should not make them.
Thank you, that's interesting I didn't think about it yet, but seems very logical.Concerning Kecia Ali, I read a book of hers (can't remember if it was the same) and also got some bd feeling through it. I think she cares more about presumed circumstances at time of Muhammad (presumded through hadith) or later development of "islamic" society than the quranic message itself.
JewishDude, I agree that divorce would be better if one of the partners does not want sex anymore, but there might be circumstances where this is not possible (the care for children and teh question who will get guardianship of tehm as the main one, I think).
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Most ayas are addressed universally, to males and females, those who are addressed to men is because they need it more, they have more things to watch for in their behaviour. Like the mentruation thing, it is women who mentruate, so it is men who can bother women not the other way around, so they are told to not make intimations to women when that can bother them. It does not say that women should not make them. They are better judges of how they feel themselves. Is like the the 24.31 it is women who are told not to show off their adornments or beauty because it is them that are more prone to abuse physical appearance in social mores, precisely because of their usually subservient conditioning in society. Men arwe not told not to show off their beauty, rather not to show off their force.
As to consent, marriage is sex, consent to marriage is consent to sex, and must there must be consent to marriage and there must be consent to sex, because they are the same thing, and if there is the need for consent the first time it is engaged, why should not there be afterwaords, and precisely the aya of the tilth, where it says to send good works before approaching the woman, do you think that using force or using manipulation or using any other form of compulsion is to send good works?
Salaam
This makes a lot of sense. Would it be safe to say though from a strictly Quranic perspective that there is no such thing as rape within marriage?
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peace,
Would it be safe to say though from a strictly Quranic perspective that there is no such thing as rape within marriage?
I think there is such a thing as "rape" within marriage, if one is defining the term as "any act of sexual intercourse that is forced upon a person.", however it would be a complicated situation, as marriage itself implies consenting of sexual relation, generally speaking.
However, see reply #3 in this thread.
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Salaam again,
I wanted to quickly thank all of you who responded thus far (will so a long response when logged on to my computer...). This question came about because I started reading Sexual Ethics and Islam by Kecia Ali and was wanting some more insight. Havin finished the book I didn't get this question answered (from the book) and got the feeling that female consent is not something I will find in the Quran either. This is disappointing to me will elaborate further later...Why anyone would want to write a book on such a topic is beyond me. Reminds me of the book 'Bahashti Zewar' given to Muslim women in some parts of Pakistan and India when they get married. It contains all kinds of of nonsense.
These kinds of questions crop up when you assume Islam is a religion which it is not. We cannot the Quran expect to provide us with an answer for each situation. Some decided early on this was required and what we got in return was Hadith literature.
Once you have understood the basic framework of the Quran, you just have to live your live around it. Remember there will always be situations or relationships that are exception to the rule. But that does not mean we create a new rule for each exception.
Focus should be on the norm and not the exception. Let the God judge the specific situation where a woman does not want to please a husband yet wants to continue the relationship with him.
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This is not a one sided issue either. I know there are times I want relations but my husband is too tired from work, does not give me the right to rape him or force him, I am patient and respectful. Yes you give consent to marriage, but marriage is more than sex. It is raising a family, making a monetary budget to sustain off of, learning and dealing with each other, the trial and tribulations of work, family and issues of faith differences. I wish marriage was as easy as being just sex, we would have less divorces. Rape is an act of oppression in my eyes, your oppressing the free will of another and as Huruf put so well, how is that sending good before hand. If you respect your spouse and their situation, there is not need to rape anyone. I do know however, there are women who use sex as an award/punishment system. That to me is a huge no-no. Sexual relations are sacred and a way to reconnect with each other, enjoy each other and sometimes have fun and laugh, either way it is to bring you closer, not further apart. IMO.
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Peace everyone,
The common translation of 3/195 says "of one another" which means we are
essentially the same but is a poor translation to most english speaking people because
it gives no discernable input into making it clear what is being said, a better
understanding can be derived by translating the verse as "like or equal to one another."
Of course many translators are culturally bound and that becomes an impediment
when discussing and translating such matters.Their Lord responded to them "I never fail to reward any worker among
you for any work you do, be you male or female?you are equal to one another.
Thus, those who immigrate, and get evicted from their homes, and are persecuted
because of Me, and fight and get killed, I will surely remit their sins and admit
them into gardens with flowing streams." Such is the reward from GOD. GOD
possesses the ultimate reward.We are also spiritual equals
Sahih International And whoever does righteous deeds, whether male or female,
while being a believer - those will enter Paradise and will not be wronged,
the speck on a date seed. 4/124And in verse 33/35 God makes it abundantly clear that we are equals!
Remember, your spouse is God's gift to you.
peace
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Salaam, Hawk,
Thank you for the ayas. I think that in fact from the whole content of the truthful Qur'an it is abundantly clear that there is no distinction between males and females except by their taqwa and that is very clear from the two ayas, 4.124 and 33.35, you uote. It is also very clear from 3.195, which you also quote. However, I think that this last aya goes much deeper than pointing to the equal level and consideration of amles and females, it says you are "min" one another. "Min" denotes origin, procedence where something comes from source. It is indeed very difficult to translate like the whole of Qur'an which is a challenge and a reason that, while I keep pointing faults in translations, on the other hand I have my utmost respecto for the translators, because they are human and have between their hands a divine work.
So I would mere state what this "min" suggest to me. It suggests that males and females cannot disengage from each other because their source is in their own sex, but also in the other sex, that they are not as "purely" this or that as simplists what to make it appear (thin of thsoe who would want to co9mpletely separate males and females and make two worlds part), males and all females are from each other, feed on each other, are inextricably mixed and their questions entangled. They cannot disengage. And the faithful must not neglect that what we do from the point of view of our respective femaleness or maleness is part of our way back to Him, of our salvation or our suffering. Yes, we are from one another, and depend on one another. And the famous aya 4.34, starts with a similar reciprocal clause that is mostly ignored, although the terms of reciprocity are there and evident.
The androcentric mentality makes it appear as if women were an exception, an accessory part of humanity on whose needs or wants the real society must think from time to time, while the whole of society is the mens society and women are lost in the process, to be considered as a line apart, just like poor people or a class of society, but men are the society. We know it is nto true, but the mental image is that.
The Qur'an reminds us, we are from one another, we are whole society and we must not reduce females (or males if ever that was the case) to a mere line in the many concerns of a society.
Salaam
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Salaam, Hawk,
The Qur'an reminds us, we are from one another, we are whole society and we
must not reduce females (or males if ever that was the case) to a mere line in
the many concerns of a society.
SalaamAgreed
Peace huruf,
Androcentrism as you mentioned appears to be a cultural phenomenom deeply
entrenched throughout many societies and yes we are from one another. In the
aforementioned ayats God is breaking down the barriers of androcentrism but
Islamic societies either munipulated the wording of the Quran in that regard or
ignored it by not putting enough emphasis on the equality between the sexes.
Gynocentrism would be equally abhorrent in my opinion.God knows best
This is not a one sided issue either. I know there are times I want relations but my husband is too tired from work, does not give me the right to rape him or force him, I am patient and respectful. Yes you give consent to marriage, but marriage is more than sex. It is raising a family, making a monetary budget to sustain off of, learning and dealing with each other, the trial and tribulations of work, family and issues of faith differences. I wish marriage was as easy as being just sex, we would have less divorces. Rape is an act of oppression in my eyes, your oppressing the free will of another and as Huruf put so well, how is that sending good before hand. If you respect your spouse and their situation, there is not need to rape anyone. I do know however, there are women who use sex as an award/punishment system. That to me is a huge no-no. Sexual relations are sacred and a way to reconnect with each other, enjoy each other and sometimes have fun and laugh, either way it is to bring you closer, not further apart. IMO.
very logical
peace
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Salaam,
I have heard over and over that in marriage a woman must sexually please her husband even if she doesn't want to. To me this is nonsense and I remember watching that short film Submission and they used verses from the quran and one was to show that rape was ok (this was from the filmmaker's pov). My question is, are there any verses in the quran that hint at or discuss sexual consent? Where does this idea of consent fit in? Any thoughts are much appreciated. Thanks.
Salamun alaiki,
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/temp%2002%20%202.187b.gif
Sexually inciting preliminary activities directed towards your wives were permissible during the night of the Fasting for you people.
.......http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/temp%2002%20%202.187f.gif
Therefore, after this clarification henceforth-now onwards undertake mutual-consented intercourse with them and you people seek its result that which Allah the Exalted has written for you people.http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Tabweeb%20Part%202/001.%20Roots%20originating%20in%20Surat%20002/2.187/1.gif and http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Tabweeb%20Part%202/109.%20Bashir%20Ba%20Sheen%20Ra/4.gif are two words of absolutely different import. in general sense is obscenity and has negative moral connotation. meanings of causing sexual harassment and is not desirable in public. It becomes positivistic when it is aimed and directed towards one's wife in the sense of incitement related preliminaries which will prepare the ground for her involvement and consent and could lead to both partners achieving "tranquility". This is the beginning, the ultimate of which is http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Tabweeb%20Part%202/109.%20Bashir%20Ba%20Sheen%20Ra/4.gif, the most intimate act of matrimonial relationship. The verb is of Form-III, which reflects mutuality. Arabic is the most decent language of the world. It conveys that in the most sophisticated and subtle manner which if explained and exposed in any other language the nudity will over brim.
Word by word analysis 2187
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Peace,
I guess I was looking at it this way because from my understanding it seems like the Quran is more andro centric. It seems like there are more verses addressing men than women which I think I can understand given the context of the time period that the quran was revealed. Also seems like when concerning this issue men are the active ones while women are passive, they are the ones being acted upon. A couple examples would be the verse saying women are a tilth or the one regarding menstration. They're directed to men about women.
Just some thoughts. I understand a majority of people get the whole consent thing. I'm just trying to develope an argument using the quran against those who say there is no rape in marriage which is something I disagree with completely.
a) Despite what many traditionalist "scholars" and "teachers" may say, women and men are set equal in front of God. Even if God addresses the males in many passages that are written in the second-person POV, it also applies to women, in a way.
3195 Their Lord responded to them "I never fail to reward any worker among you for any work you do, be you male or female - you are equal to one another. Thus, those who immigrate, and get evicted from their homes, and are persecuted because of Me, and fight and get killed, I will surely remit their sins and admit them into gardens with flowing streams." Such is the reward from GOD. GOD possesses the ultimate reward.
b) So far, I have not seen any evidence for rape within marriage. According to the research I have done so far for the article that I am going to write, rape ("zina" is sex with people other than your spouse or "MMA" (those who consent to sex outside of marriage and prostitution). The whole premise is that when you marry, you basically agree to engage in sexual activity with your spouse. However, we are not allowed to treat our spouse unfairly.
419 O you who acknowledge, it is not lawful for you to inherit the women by force, nor that you become harsh with them to take away some of what you have given them, unless they commit clear adultery. Live with them in kindness. If you dislike them, then perhaps you may dislike something and God makes in it much good.
3021 Among His signs is that He created for you mates from yourselves that you may reside with them, and He placed between you affection and compassion. In that are signs for people who think.
