Is Zina related to sex ?

mmmm

I agree with you regarding "Fahicha has not clear meaning of sex sin." Becouse translation of those ayats don't make sense in a way that there is no punishment for a man - only women 415 and also you get the feeling it is something she did by herself...and what about the next ayat 416 ?
And also take notice that the word translated as lash them actually means skin (root jm lm dl ( &#1583) in most ayats so this could be mistranslated also?

noshirk

I think that in the context of the Sura, what it says after the ayas where it is about the punishment for zina and the witnesses for it, it does make sense that it could be construed as sexual misconduct or ilegal sexual partnership, independently of semantis or morphology, for instance, that we had not clue whatsoever about what z-n-y might be, because of what somes after. And as to the harshness of 100 lashes as to the 80 lashes, I think there is a big difference in the witnessing requirements so as to make prooving o zina (taking it as sexual relations) practically impossible if the doers do not want to get caught, while to proove the case against a difamer we do not need any witnesses, it suffices that the doer does not bring himself four witnesses. So difaming is proven by default, but to proove zina, well...

So, one question for me would be leaving aside the semantics of the word, in the context of the qur'an and without previous conception what could zina be othar than sexual illegal conduct? What would fit?

Of course the justice system is corrupt you can put in the laws anything any wants wishes, it will always work for the corrupter. So I won't get into the question of the law being used for this or for that. Any law can be used for this or for that, if a society is corrupted enough for it.

Salaam

salaam

Defaming and making false accusation fit with zina.
Please note that the 80 lashes is for a defaming charge even if you consider that zina=adultery

Now there is a question that should be studied apart. Why defaming mohasanat is only 80 lashes ?
Mohsanet are women with no financial need.

415 And those of your women who commit "fahisha", you shall bring four witnesses over them from among you; if they bear witness, then you shall restrict them in the homes until death terminates their lives, or God makes for them a way out.

Here, we see that "fahisha/infraction" is punished by jailing at home for women.
so we can deduce, if zina is aduletery, that there is a double penality for women while man has only lashes.

425 And whoever of you cannot afford to marry the independent female (mohsanat) believers, then from those maintained by your oaths of the believing young women. And God is more aware of your faith, some of you to each other. You shall marry them with the permission of their parents, and give them their dowries in kindness - to be independent - not for illicit sex or taking lovers. Until they become independent, any of them who comes with an immorality shall have half of what is the punishment (ADHAB) for those who are independent. This is for those who fear hardship from among you. But if you are patient it is better for you, and God is Forgiver, Merciful.

Now, punishment is a bad traduction for word adhab. Adhab mean separation for me.
adhab (separation from God) will be more or less painfull for disbelievers and idolaters.

Adhab meaning of separation fit perfectly with the half sentence of jail at home for women who married while they were not mohsanat.

Zina=adultery hypothesis is really difficult to apply. You have to do that in front of 4 testimonies to be punished.
Zina=adultery is total hypocrisis.
What is the penality for a men who accuses falsely a man to do zina ?

if i follow another deen than islam, 100 lashes for adultery is in contradiction with "no compulsion in deen" (2-256) law. It can be my belief to do sex with other women than mine.

So, zina=adultery leads to infinite debate
what if the women is widow? slave ? under sexual harassment in work ? ...
what if aduletry is commited by a married and not married ? a muslim and not muslim ? a not mohsanat and married man ? a married with prostitude ...

Really, Zina=adultery is impossible for me. Contradictions in quran would be too numerous.

Peace

noshirk

Salaam.

I have allways wondered how these verses could talk about sex, it just does not make any sense. I think this is indeed much more interesting than most silly topics coming here lately.

I have to study the word zina more closely whether it has any associations with sex before i will make conclusions.

Salaam
arabic is a very strange language.

zina have meaning of decoration. defaming is a false decoration of reality.
Quran forbid showing forouj to other than spouses and malakat aymanoukom (70-29 and 70-30) but ask to show zina to many (24-31) and to take our zina to masjid
731 O Children of Adam, dress nicely at every temple (TAKE YOUR ZINA), and eat and drink and do not indulge; He does not like the indulgers.

Peace

huruf

I disagree completely that 4.15 is about punishing the women. As supernaut pur forward long time ago, 4.15 is about prostitution and it does speak about any chargo or punishment at all. What kind of punishment is that that goes from 0 minutes to the whole life? What kind of joke is that. Where does it say that a punishment is contemplated. What it says is to put the women in the homes. It does not say to jail the women. So when you take the women who are recurrent committers of fahisha and put them int he homes, the homes ar what? isn't that as opposed to the street. It is plain, take the prostitues of the street, keep them in proper homes till they die or till God provides for them another way to earn their living. That is, take them off the streets.

And the following aya 4.16, would be consistent with the prostitute and the client.

huruf

Salaam
arabic is a very strange language.

zina have meaning of decoration. defaming is a false decoration of reality.
Quran forbid showing forouj to other than spouses and malakat aymanoukom (70-29 and 70-30) but ask to show zina to many (24-31) and to take our zina to masjid
731 O Children of Adam, dress nicely at every temple (TAKE YOUR ZINA), and eat and drink and do not indulge; He does not like the indulgers.

Peace

Zina as meant in sura 24 and 17.31 and zeena as in 7.31 are different words and different roots.

The first is root z-n-w and the second is z-y-n

7.31 says Do not come near to zina, that is "fahisha" and wrong way.

So in that aya zina is qualified as fahisha.

As to the expression guard "furuj", I think that is more more general which encompasses hygiene, modesty, caution... along the lines that the body is to be respected and kept healthy, pure and safe, physically and morally. That is my impression.

Salaam

noshirk

salaam brother huruf

727 O Children of Adam, do not let the devil afflict you as he evicted your parents from the paradise; he removes from them their garments to show them their bodies. He and his tribe see you from where you do not see them. We have made the devils as allies for those who do not believe.
728 And if they commit FAHISHA, they say ?We found our fathers doing such, and God ordered us to it.? Say ?God does not order immorality! Do you say about God what you do not know??

FAHISHA is used many times for people of Lot.
i don't think that people of lot were all homosexuals. Not possible. At least for women.
Fahisha is more general word than sexual delits

Concerning 4-15 and 4-16, i don't understood what is your position about prostitution. Is it forbidden and why ?
here again, we have the "no compulsion in deen" statement that we have not to transgress

415 And those of your women who commit FAHISHA, you shall bring four witnesses over them from among you; if they bear witness, then you shall restrict them in the homes until death terminates their lives, or God makes for them a way out.
416 And "the two ??? men "??? who "comes to her/it" among you, you shall trouble them. If they repent and amend, then leave them alone. God is Redeemer, Merciful.

if prostitution is to be forbidden, then your explanation is coherent.
but
what for women doing fahisha without needing to earn their life ?

hope you noticed the word aadhou in 4-16.
adhaa is little pain.
quran use word adhaa here (i found no other occurence)
3369 O you who believe, do not be like those who harmed (adhaa) Moses, but then God cleared him of all they said, and he was honorable before God.

so adhaa can be understood as verbal sermoning or social reprobation.

in fact, it is the word "two" in 4-16 that is the better indication of possible sexual activity (even if such a thing can be done by more than two at the same time).

turning back to 4-15, i can understand it as "prostitution is only in whorehouses" and not in the street as you said.
i was probably wrong when i saw jailing. i don't no why, but i saw "their homes" in 4-16 but there is only "homes".
i thank you bro for these remarks and for the explanation about word sabeel.

However, if 4-15 and 4-16 are speaking about sexual fahisha, then it is another argument that zina or zeena is not adultery since we cannot have two penality for same "crime".

concerning different roots z n w, z y n, to wich i add z n n, w z n i think debate is more complex
in these similar combinations wich certain derivatives are very similar, sex is only in the root we are contesting.
our question is is zeena =adultery fitting ?

peace.

huruf

No it does not say either in "homes" or in "their homes" it says in "the homes".

I think that it is not dealing with people doing prostitution or anything like that in private, because siimply, from what we get from all the Qur'an people are not to pry on other people's lives. So what people do in private it is a private affair, be it wrong or right. They will see about that with God, other people are not asked to intervine as a public action.

The fahisha I understand of prostitution is not actual sexual relations in front of four witneses, but soliciting, inciting, that kind of thing. Not even in prostitution is it usual to do it in front of public. Of course, many things are done, but let us say that those would be other specialties. So if zina is taken to means illegal sexual relations, that would not come under 4.15, unless four witnesses would testify that they did see the subjects doing it. But in prostitution when it is not behind closed doors, what is seen is soliciting.

As to the prople of Lut I that is a whole different thing altogether. They were highjackers, ganging people. I do not think that if they did what they did to people of different sex it would be better or less condemnable.

I think the four witnesses thing is the limit between something private and something public. It is different if you do something in private or in public. It is not that if it is something inmoral it is less wrong, but if youd o it in public you are inviting public involvement in something that should pertain to your private life. In private life we do nto have a right to enter. In public it is a question of respect for public order. Like the right not to be made an unwilling watcher of things untoward.

Salaam

supportpeacenotwar

salaam brother huruf

Salaam,

I thought Huruf was a sister?

No it does not say either in "homes" or in "their homes" it says in "the homes".

I think that it is not dealing with people doing prostitution or anything like that in private, because siimply, from what we get from all the Qur'an people are not to pry on other people's lives. So what people do in private it is a private affair, be it wrong or right. They will see about that with God, other people are not asked to intervine as a public action.

The fahisha I understand of prostitution is not actual sexual relations in front of four witneses, but soliciting, inciting, that kind of thing. Not even in prostitution is it usual to do it in front of public. Of course, many things are done, but let us say that those would be other specialties. So if zina is taken to means illegal sexual relations, that would not come under 4.15, unless four witnesses would testify that they did see the subjects doing it. But in prostitution when it is not behind closed doors, what is seen is soliciting.

As to the prople of Lut I that is a whole different thing altogether. They were highjackers, ganging people. I do not think that if they did what they did to people of different sex it would be better or less condemnable.

I think the four witnesses thing is the limit between something private and something public. It is different if you do something in private or in public. It is not that if it is something inmoral it is less wrong, but if youd o it in public you are inviting public involvement in something that should pertain to your private life. In private life we do nto have a right to enter. In public it is a question of respect for public order. Like the right not to be made an unwilling watcher of things untoward.

Salaam

Salaam,

Some great points, thanks for sharing them. From what you've said it reminds me of pornography but maybe I'm thinking along other lines.

Mazhar

Zina as meant in sura 24 and 17.31 and zeena as in 7.31 are different words and different roots.

The first is root z-n-w and the second is z-y-n

7.31 says Do not come near to zina, that is "fahisha" and wrong way.

So in that aya zina is qualified as fahisha.

As to the expression guard "furuj", I think that is more more general which encompasses hygiene, modesty, caution... along the lines that the body is to be respected and kept healthy, pure and safe, physically and morally. That is my impression.

Salaam

Root
Words from this Root in the Grand Qur'aan
a) Total occurrences 24
b) No of constructions 8
(&#1588 . .

The basic perception infolded in the Root is that of indulging in excessive, immoderate, or beyond measure with reference to generally or universally accepted norms, limits and measures of behaviour. The perception and meanings of the Root have built in subjective and relational element. Moreover, since the excessive, immoderate and extremist tendencies are universally looked upon with dislike, abomination, repulsiveness, and unacceptability, therefore, it has inherent negative element. For reason of built in subjective and relational element, it is the context and related field which will determine and expose its meanings with reference to that context and in definite state generally about the irrational, unnatural, obscene, pervert and excessively emotional sexual conduct.

There is no active participle and passive participle in it. On the contrary Zina (&#1575 is for illegal intercourse; premarital or extramarital.

is a Verbal Noun signifying an act only. It denotes the act of intercourse and a state where the male genitalia intercourses with female genitalia. It does not refer to the doer of act as to who are they who are performing intercourse.

The woman performing in the act of intercourse is Active Participle
and the man performing in the act of intercourse is also Active Participle .

This act of intercourse is certainly but any thing regarded as is not Zina. All ilicit sexual activities minus Zina are . Similarly rape is not Zina, whether done by a man or by a woman or women with a man, since Zina is only with mutual consent.

noshirk

Salaam

Root
Words from this Root in the Grand Qur'aan
a) Total occurrences 24
b) No of constructions 8
(&#1588 . .

The basic perception infolded in the Root is that of indulging in excessive, immoderate, or beyond measure with reference to generally or universally accepted norms, limits and measures of behaviour. The perception and meanings of the Root have built in subjective and relational element. Moreover, since the excessive, immoderate and extremist tendencies are universally looked upon with dislike, abomination, repulsiveness, and unacceptability, therefore, it has inherent negative element. For reason of built in subjective and relational element, it is the context and related field which will determine and expose its meanings with reference to that context and in definite state generally about the irrational, unnatural, obscene, pervert and excessively emotional sexual conduct.

There is no active participle and passive participle in it. On the contrary Zina (&#1575 is for illegal intercourse; premarital or extramarital.

is a Verbal Noun signifying an act only. It denotes the act of intercourse and a state where the male genitalia intercourses with female genitalia. It does not refer to the doer of act as to who are they who are performing intercourse.

The woman performing in the act of intercourse is Active Participle
and the man performing in the act of intercourse is also Active Participle .

This act of intercourse is certainly but any thing regarded as is not Zina. All ilicit sexual activities minus Zina are . Similarly rape is not Zina, whether done by a man or by a woman or women with a man, since Zina is only with mutual consent.

root fahisha is more clear than root of zina

zina has many understandings, the problem is to find wich one fit better with context in wich it is used in quran.

root zina doesnt point to illegal intercourse

( &#1577

. .
.

. . .
.

.
.

so z n w root is near the meaning of "shortening" something. Defaming is shortening proofs when making accusations.

interesting also this

( &#1576

.

zina is here opposed to reason.

here again

( &#1577
. " ".
.

.
.
.
.
.
.

notice use in red part.
it is applied to unreasonable words. znw is dereasonable words.
in blue part, zina is said to be appliable to women making bagha (following desires) ???

but, the better proof that zeena is not illegal intercourse is that all islamic scholars agree on that.
from my own experience, they cannot agree on something true.

so, dear mazhar, don't come again with traditional understanding of schorlars as proof. It is what i am contesting

Peace

Mazhar

.

What is he saying?

What classical lexicons have said is translated by Lane as under

1 , aor. , inf. n. and , (S, Mgh, * Msb, K,) the latter an inf. n. of 3 (S, Mgh, Msb, K) also, (S, Mgh, K,) but said by some to be a dial. var. of the former, (Msb,) the former being of the dial. of the people of El-Hij?z, (Lh, S, Msb, TA,) and the latter of the dial. of Benoo-Temeem, (Lh, TA,) or of the people of Nejd, (S, Msb, TA,) He committed fornication or adultery; (El-Mun?wee, Er-R?ghib, TA with her (MA) but accord. to El-Mun?wee, in the proper language of the Arabs, signifies the mounting upon a thing; and in the language of the law it signifies the commission of the act first mentioned above it is syn. with and in like manner one says of a woman (TA) , inf. n. , also signifies the same (TA) and so does , inf. n. and (K) one says of a woman, , inf. n. and , meaning . (S.) It is said in a prov., applied to him who does not remain in one state, or condition; neither in good nor in evil (Meyd) or to him who refrains from doing good and then is excessive , or from evil and then is excessive therein; not continuing to pursue one way. (TA.) 2 , inf. n. , (S, Mgh, Msb, TA,) He said to him (S, TA) or he imputed to him ; (Mgh, Msb, TA and so , accord. to the copies of the K; but in the M, , which, it is there said, has not been heard except in a trad. of the daughter of El- Hasan. (TA.) -A2- See also 1. -A3- And see 2 in art. . 3 , inf. n. and , (Mgh, Msb.) -b2- See also 1, in two places. -A2- And see 2. 4 see 2. , often written see the next paragraph, in two places. A single act of (Msb, TA) and is dualized they say (TA) thus using the dual of , the lawyers say, (Msb, TA) but in the saying , or , the right word is . (Mgh.) One says also, , and sometimes , (K,) but the former is the more chaste, (Az, TA,) meaning (K) or and , (Mgh, Msb,) and and , (Mgh,) with fet-h and with kesr, contr. of and , (Mgh,) or contr. of (Msb) or and , contr. of and (S) accord. to Fr, one says, and and , all with fet-h accord. to Ks, however, one may say and , with kesr, but only with fet-h (TA) ISk says that and are both with kesr and fet-h. (Msb.) . See the next preceding paragraph, in five places. -A2- Also The last of a man's children; (K like as signifies the ? last of a woman's children. ? (TA.) see an instance of its dual voce is the rel. n. from ; (S, Msb the being changed into because three s are deemed difficult of pronunciation (Msb) and the rel. n. from is . (S.) see what next precedes. an appellation applied to A female ape (&#1612. (S.) act. part. n. of (Msb) fem. (Kur xxiv. 2 and 3) pl. masc. , like pl. of (Msb) said to a woman is correct as being apocopated. (Mgh.) fem. of -b2- Applied to a man, it has an intensive meaning . (Mgh.) Credit Lane Lexicon

Grand Qur'aan has used this Root for 9 times. All are about illicit intercourse.

noshirk

salaam Mazhar

243 The ZANI will only marry a ZANIA or she who is a polytheist. And the ZANIA, she will only be married to an ZANI or he who is a polytheist. And such has been made forbidden for the believers.

following your reasoning
if a married women commit illegal intercourse with another man than his husband we have to

1- accuse the husband to be a polytheist and forbid him for example to make Hajj
2- accuse the husband to be a zani and gives him 100 leashes

what is the good response ?

Peace

Mazhar

salaam Mazhar

243 The ZANI will only marry a ZANIA or she who is a polytheist. And the ZANIA, she will only be married to an ZANI or he who is a polytheist. And such has been made forbidden for the believers.

following your reasoning
if a married women commit illegal intercourse with another man than his husband we have to

1- accuse the husband to be a polytheist and forbid him for example to make Hajj
2- accuse the husband to be a zani and gives him 100 leashes

what is the good response ?

Peace

Salamun alaika,

The Man held guilty of consented illicit sexual intercourse shall not henceforth enter into the contract of Nikah matrimonial bondage except with a woman-convict of illicit sexual intercourse or a polytheist woman.
And no one except a convict-man of illicit sexual intercourse or a polytheist shall marry certain woman held guilty of consented illicit sexual intercourse.
And this marriage entering into Nikah with the man or the woman convicted of illicit sexual intercourse is prohibited for the Believers.

Implication of the injunction is that in case of a married man convicted guilty of Zina-illicit intercourse the bondage of Nikah with the believing woman who is his wife ceases to exist. They stand seperated. The convict is at liberty to enter into marriage with any convict woman on charge of Zina or a polytheist woman. Both such women are prohibited for marriage for the believing men.

The Ayah negates those conjectural gossips which propose stoning to death. Obviously a dead person cannot marry while Qur'aan allows him to marry.

noshirk

Salamun alaika,

The Man held guilty of consented illicit sexual intercourse shall not henceforth enter into the contract of Nikah matrimonial bondage except with a woman-convict of illicit sexual intercourse or a polytheist woman.
And no one except a convict-man of illicit sexual intercourse or a polytheist shall marry certain woman held guilty of consented illicit sexual intercourse.
And this marriage entering into Nikah with the man or the woman convicted of illicit sexual intercourse is prohibited for the Believers.

Implication of the injunction is that in case of a married man convicted guilty of Zina-illicit intercourse the bondage of Nikah with the believing woman who is his wife ceases to exist. They stand seperated. The convict is at liberty to enter into marriage with any convict woman on charge of Zina or a polytheist woman. Both such women are prohibited for marriage for the believing men.

The Ayah negates those conjectural gossips which propose stoning to death. Obviously a dead person cannot marry while Qur'aan allows him to marry.

Salaam Mazhar

let suppose that my wife make an aduletery and that i decided to forgive her because of what we already lived together, for our children ...

Now, as you see, i can have a different understanding of word zina than you.

now, if i understand well
you mazhar, with your understanding
you decide to leash my wife 100 leashes while i am not agree
you ask me to divorce her while i am not agree

all that because you think that your understanding is better than mine.

Zina is not adultery.
both my heart and my brain tell me that.
it is my global understanding of Quran that tell me that zina=adultery would be a big anomaly in quran

if zina is adultery then i will probably go to hell simply because it would imply that i have understood nothing in quran.

241 A chapter which We have sent down and imposed, and We have sent down in it clear revelations that you may remember.
when a sourate begin like that, it cannot speak about laws quite impossible to apply.

moreover, you cannot, only with quran, decide exactly from wich point of "flirting", flirting should be considered as adultery.

the problem is much more difficult than you think.
if you accept that hypothesis, then you have also another big debate indisputable proof versus 4 testimonies.

of course, you have also the very big problem of what to apply to the general crime of defaming when it is prooven.
as i already told, defaming a mohasanet of adultery worth 80 leashes. What for defaming of crime....

So, dear mazhar, i am not agree. You haven't the right the leash my wife for what you consider your beliefs.
i am the victim. You have nothing to do between me, my wife, his friend and my god if i decide to forgive her.

Peace

Mazhar

Salaam Mazhar

let suppose that my wife make an aduletery and that i decided to forgive her because of what we already lived together, for our children ...

Law does not work on suppositions. And law does not come into play without there being a complainant about the commission of an offence. And the complainant is required to produce evidence to the satisfaction of the court of competence to prove the alleged charge.

And please avoid making false suppositions about your wife. Wives are more courageous in forgiving sexual shortcomings of their husbands than the husbands. No charge of ilicit sex lies against one's own wife unless he produces four eye witnesses to testify the allegation in the court of law or undertakes the procedure prescribed in the Qur'aan in support of his allegation. And if the wife also rebuts that personal evidence of her husband, nothing stands against her.

god1quran1

NoShirk,

Can you provide your Quranic understanding of Zina in a clear manner?

thanks.

noshirk

NoShirk,

Can you provide your Quranic understanding of Zina in a clear manner?

thanks.

Salaam god1quran1

my actual understanding is this
making zina=defaming someone, accusing him to have commited a crime he didn't committed.

244 And those who accuse the independent female (MOHASANAT)s, then they do not bring forth four witnesses, you shall lash them with eighty lashes, and do not accept their testimony ever; and those are the wicked.

MOHASANAT is women who have sufficient money to be independant. They don't need to work.
So mohsanat can surmont more easely the prejudice of false accusations. In other hand, it is more difficult to make credible accusation against mohasanat.
Giving 80 lashes to defamer of a mohsanat is, i think, a way to calibrate the punition and to show that defaming is a great sin.

415 And those of your women who commit lewdness, you shall bring four witnesses over them from among you; if they bear witness, then you shall restrict them in the homes until death terminates their lives, or God makes for them a way out.

Here, we have another attitude to have towards women comminting "lewdness". Explaining the meaning of 415 is another debate. We have only to notice that there is no leashes there.

4240 The recompense for a crime shall be its equivalence, but whoever forgives and makes right, then his reward is upon God. He does not like the wrongdoers.
4241 And for any who demand action after being wronged, those are not committing any error.
4242 The error is upon those who oppress the people, and they aggress in the land without cause. For these will be a painful retribution.

in quran, we have a sample of adultery accusation in history of Yusuf. There was no leashes on the story.
1227 ?And if his shirt is torn from behind, then she is lying, and he is truthful.?
1228 So when he saw that his shirt was torn from behind, he said ?This is from your female planning, your female planning is indeed great!?

there was not also 4 testimonies. There was a proof that Yusuf was not guilty.

By definition, a defamer has no proofs. So at least 4 testimonies are needed in case of lack of proofs.

1276 So he began with their bags before the bag of his brother. Then he brought it out of the bag of his brother. It was such that We planned for Joseph, for he would not have been able to take his brother under the system of the king, except that God wished it so. We raise the degrees of whom We please, and over every one of knowledge is the All Knowledgeable.

Here again we have a sample that with a proof, we don't need 4 testimonies.

Peace

pixelrow

"Zina is not adultery.
both my heart and my brain tell me that. "

Your heart and mind have got nothing to do with it. You are unqualified to know what the word means. . . it simply being misled - not "heart or mind". . . what kind of nonsense is that?

So you have been impressed with Westernism that you come back and change your religion - rather than yourself.

huruf