Day & Night Phenomenon described in the quran

Man_of_Faith

Peace,

Just a thought, but is smoke not the particles of burnt materials, while gas is a substance matter?

It is two different things I am afraid. Gas is new because ancient people did not know what gas was in the first place. Gas is one of the forms a substance can take.

God bless you

Ahmad_Bilal

Peace, FearGod.

Chapter 9 Structure and Formation of Stars

The space between stars is called interstellar medium. This space or medium is not completely devoid of matter. The space is filled with hydrogen 75% and helium 25%, traces of carbon, nitrogen, oxygen, calcium, sodium, molecular hydrogen and silicates. The matter is non-uniformly distributed, presence of hot , low density gas currents circulating in the medium and generating twisted complex tangle of cool, dense clouds like the puff of a cigarette smoke.

Reference http//www2.potsdam.edu/islamma/Phys335Ch09FormationStars.htm

I get this, and this is NOT what we're talking about... Compositional elements are all derived from hydrogen, including helium. You're talking about elemental particles in space TODAY, which didn't contain the same factors prior to the big bang. Again, we're not talking about now; we're talking about billions of years ago, when there were no organic particles and (according to Islamic clerics and the general Muslim populace) no matter, since Allah created everything ex nihilo (out of nothing).

So, again, DURING THAT TIME, where did the "smoke" come from?

And, again, if you're proposing that the Universe was created out of smoke (since this is obviously the "gas" that you're trying to infer in your analysis of the big bang, which is completely wrong), how did this happen AFTER the Earth was already present and populated? How was the sky (or 'heavens&#039 still "smoke" while the Earth already had mountains, plants, etc.? How did God separate the Earth from the sky (or 'heavens&#039, if the Earth is still in space? Is the Quran trying to imply that the Earth is somehow separate from the Universe, or was the Earth formerly separate from the Universe when God decided to put the two (separate) objects together?

Are you grasping this now?

Weighing the Quran on the basis of philosophy, especially when further defined and characterized by its outstanding literary fixtures, is fine. However, trying to present it as some sort of 'science book' doesn't work, because it clearly doesn't add up. You're trying to force the Quran to agree with modern science, when it clearly doesn't.

Peace,

Ahmad

Ahmad_Bilal

Peace, Man of Faith.

Just a thought, but is smoke not the particles of burnt materials, while gas is a substance matter?

It is two different things I am afraid. Gas is new because ancient people did not know what gas was in the first place. Gas is one of the forms a substance can take.

Exactly! This is all I was trying to point out, but it seems like some people don't want to grasp this concept...

Gas = Gas
Smoke = Smoke
Gas =/= Smoke

Peace,

Ahmad

supportpeacenotwar

Peace,

Just a thought, but is smoke not the particles of burnt materials, while gas is a substance matter?

It is two different things I am afraid. Gas is new because ancient people did not know what gas was in the first place. Gas is one of the forms a substance can take.

God bless you

Peace, Man of Faith.

Exactly! This is all I was trying to point out, but it seems like some people don't want to grasp this concept...

Gas = Gas
Smoke = Smoke
Gas =/= Smoke

Peace,

Ahmad

http//cseligman.com/text/galaxies/m82infrared.jpg

Chapter 9 Structure and Formation of Stars

The space between stars is called interstellar medium. This space or medium is not completely devoid of matter. The space is filled with hydrogen 75% and helium 25%, traces of carbon, nitrogen, oxygen, calcium, sodium, molecular hydrogen and silicates. The matter is non-uniformly distributed, presence of hot , low density gas currents circulating in the medium and generating twisted complex tangle of cool, dense clouds like the puff of a cigarette smoke.

Reference http//www2.potsdam.edu/islamma/Phys335Ch09FormationStars.htm

Salaam,

I haven't been following this thread, and I don't mean to 'interrupt', but it seems to me that FearGod is saying the, inevitably, the Quran is using a metaphor and poetic language. It is not a book of science, seems to be the point but that does not mean it cannot align with certain principles with science. Science as a method can develop and change it doesn't stay static - which means what could sound "scientific" and "learned" to one community might sound different to another. The point with the Quran is, how do you describe natural phenomenon (natural phenomenon themselves being a way to ascertain the existence of God for all men in the case of justice and fairness which, as humans some seem to want to 'command' and 'demand' from God) without using language for the people at the time? Later people should be able to appreciate the general context.

FearGod

Peace, FearGod.

I get this, and this is NOT what we're talking about... Compositional elements are all derived from hydrogen, including helium. You're talking about elemental particles in space TODAY, which didn't contain the same factors prior to the big bang. Again, we're not talking about now; we're talking about billions of years ago, when there were no organic particles and (according to Islamic clerics and the general Muslim populace) no matter, since Allah created everything ex nihilo (out of nothing).

So, again, DURING THAT TIME, where did the "smoke" come from?

And, again, if you're proposing that the Universe was created out of smoke (since this is obviously the "gas" that you're trying to infer in your analysis of the big bang, which is completely wrong), how did this happen AFTER the Earth was already present and populated? How was the sky (or 'heavens&#039 still "smoke" while the Earth already had mountains, plants, etc.? How did God separate the Earth from the sky (or 'heavens&#039, if the Earth is still in space? Is the Quran trying to imply that the Earth is somehow separate from the Universe, or was the Earth formerly separate from the Universe when God decided to put the two (separate) objects together?

Are you grasping this now?

Weighing the Quran on the basis of philosophy, especially when further defined and characterized by its outstanding literary fixtures, is fine. However, trying to present it as some sort of 'science book' doesn't work, because it clearly doesn't add up. You're trying to force the Quran to agree with modern science, when it clearly doesn't.

Peace,

Ahmad

Where did i say the big bang?

Read the verse carefully.

Then turned He to the heaven when it was smoke, and said unto it and unto the earth Come both of you, willingly or loth. They said We come, obedient. (4111)

So,the earth has been already formed similar to the new born star and at that stage the sky was still smoke.exactly the case when a new star born.

The origin of the universe is different than the born of earth and the status of the sky at that moment.

Did you understand ?

FearGod

Salaam,

I haven't been following this thread, and I don't mean to 'interrupt', but it seems to me that FearGod is saying the, inevitably, the Quran is using a metaphor and poetic language. It is not a book of science, seems to be the point but that does not mean it cannot align with certain principles with science. Science as a method can develop and change it doesn't stay static - which means what could sound "scientific" and "learned" to one community might sound different to another. The point with the Quran is, how do you describe natural phenomenon (natural phenomenon themselves being a way to ascertain the existence of God for all men in the case of justice and fairness which, as humans some seem to want to 'command' and 'demand' from God) without using language for the people at the time? Later people should be able to appreciate the general context.

Salam Brother,

Thats it exactly,its about natural phenomenon and signs described in the langauge of the quran.

Peace
FearGod

Wakas

peace AB, all,

I haven't been reading this thread, but I happened to notice your post, see the following

Ok, so this is pretty simple. It's clearly saying that God created the Earth and placed everything upon it during this period. However, the problem comes along in the next passage, which you keep foolishly pointing out

No, the verse does not say that.

I find it interesting you use words such as "pretty simple" and "clearly" yet you make a mistake in what the verse is saying.

Please try again.

Ahmad_Bilal

Peace, supportpeacenotwar.

I haven't been following this thread, and I don't mean to 'interrupt', but it seems to me that FearGod is saying the, inevitably, the Quran is using a metaphor and poetic language.

Poetic language? The Quran says that the sky (universe/heavens) was "smoke". That's not poetic, it's wrong... FearGod is proposing that the sky was literally smoke, and then, to justify his position, he is attempting to propose that "smoke" and "gas" are the same thing. They're not.

It is not a book of science, seems to be the point but that does not mean it cannot align with certain principles with science. Science as a method can develop and change it doesn't stay static - which means what could sound "scientific" and "learned" to one community might sound different to another.

Isn't this a good thing? Science doesn't claim to have all the answers. The fact that it's not static shows that scientists are constantly perfecting it; they're constantly testing their theories to make the most valid determination of what's real and what's not... One of my questions from the very beginning was, "If the Quran proposes a scientific assertion within its pages, and modern science proves that assertion to be false, what should we believe - what science says or what the scriptures say?" That's an important question.

Science proposes an idea of what it recognizes as "truth". If this 'truth' is proven to be false, then scientists throw away that idea and come up with something more accurate and verifiable. Religion proposes an idea of what it recognizes as truth. However, if this 'truth' is proven to be false, theists dismiss all of the scientific proofs and assert that their ideology is undoubtedly true, regardless of what the evidence says... You don't see anything wrong with this position?

The point with the Quran is, how do you describe natural phenomenon (natural phenomenon themselves being a way to ascertain the existence of God for all men in the case of justice and fairness which, as humans some seem to want to 'command' and 'demand' from God) without using language for the people at the time? Later people should be able to appreciate the general context.

That makes sense, when viewed from the perspective of primitive superstitious people. However, we are in an age of science and reason now. If the Quran was written for the 7th-century Arabs, then your claim would be valid. Yet, Muslims generally assert that the Quran was written for everyone not merely for ancient cultures, but for future generations as well... If the Quran said that the Universe was "ghaz"/gas, then we wouldn't even be having this debate. The problem is the use of the word "dukhan"/smoke, which is totally incorrect. Indeed, I see the context, and I think it's interesting. However, being interesting doesn't make it correct.

Peace,

Ahmad

Ahmad_Bilal

Peace, FearGod.

Where did i say the big bang?

You're back-tracking. Look through the thread, and you'll see exactly where you said that this refers to the "big bang".

Read the verse carefully.

Then turned He to the heaven when it was smoke, and said unto it and unto the earth Come both of you, willingly or loth. They said We come, obedient. (4111)

So,the earth has been already formed similar to the new born star and at that stage the sky was still smoke.exactly the case when a new star born.

So, when are you proposing that the heaven (universe) was "dukhan"/smoke? Again, the Quran says this

Say, "Disbelieve ye verily in Him Who created the earth in two Days, and ascribe ye unto Him rivals? He is the Lord of the Worlds. He placed therein firm hills rising above it, and blessed it and measured therein its sustenance in four Days, alike for (all) who ask." (Q. 419, 10)

Afterwards, the Quran says this

Then turned He to the heaven when it was smoke, and said unto it and unto the earth Come both of you, willingly or loth. They said We come, obedient. (Q. 4111)

I'm not sure how you interpret this passage; but it looks to me like the Quran is claiming that the heaven ("samaa"/sky) was smoke ("dukhan&quot AFTER "He (e.g. God) placed therein firm hills rising above it, and blessed it and measured therein its sustenance". That's where your explanation completely falls through.

The origin of the universe is different than the born of earth and the status of the sky at that moment.

If we're not talking about the origin of the Universe, then what "moment" are you referring to? When is the Quran claiming that God told the heaven and the Earth to 'come together willingly or unwillingly'?

Peace,

Ahmad

Ahmad_Bilal

Peace, Wakas.

No, the verse does not say that.

I find it interesting you use words such as "pretty simple" and "clearly" yet you make a mistake in what the verse is saying.

The passage says this

Say "Disbelieve ye verily in Him Who created the earth in two Days, and ascribe ye unto Him rivals? He is the Lord of the Worlds. He placed therein firm hills rising above it, and blessed it and measured therein its sustenance in four Days, alike for (all) who ask. Then turned He to the heaven when it was smoke, and said unto it and unto the earth Come both of you, willingly or loth. They said We come, obedient." (Q. 419-11)

Please tell us how you interpret this passage. It seems "pretty simple" to me; but I could be 'mistaken', and I'm more than willing to hear your explanation (and interpretation) of this event. Please share it. Thanks.

Peace,

Ahmad

FearGod

Peace, FearGod.

You're back-tracking. Look through the thread, and you'll see exactly where you said that this refers to the "big bang".

You are claiming that i am talking about the big bang and then you're the one to show where i did,otherwise you are a liar,and which it is.

So, when are you proposing that the heaven (universe) was "dukhan"/smoke? Again, the Quran says this

Say, "Disbelieve ye verily in Him Who created the earth in two Days, and ascribe ye unto Him rivals? He is the Lord of the Worlds. He placed therein firm hills rising above it, and blessed it and measured therein its sustenance in four Days, alike for (all) who ask." (Q. 419, 10)

Afterwards, the Quran says this

Then turned He to the heaven when it was smoke, and said unto it and unto the earth Come both of you, willingly or loth. They said We come, obedient. (Q. 4111)

I'm not sure how you interpret this passage; but it looks to me like the Quran is claiming that the heaven ("samaa"/sky) was smoke ("dukhan&quot AFTER "He (e.g. God) placed therein firm hills rising above it, and blessed it and measured therein its sustenance". That's where your explanation completely falls through.

The verses are very clear that the smoke state was after the formation of earth exactly the state once the star is formed and which is described even among scientists as the cosmic cigar.

Smokey Omega

Image courtesy ESO

Bright newborn stars glisten like dew in the rosy-hued core of M17, also called the Omega nebula. This newly released picture, from the European Southern Observatory's Very Large Telescope, is one of the sharpest views of Omega yet taken from the ground.

The nebula's dark dust and glowing gas are the raw materials for star formation, and Omega is one of the most active stellar nurseries for massive stars in the Milky Way.

As seen in this visible-light image, the nebula's hydrogen gas glows red to our eyes because it's being illuminated by intense ultraviolet radiation from the hot, young stars inside. This may be one reason another popular name for M17 is the Lobster nebula.

http//images.nationalgeographic.com/wpf/media-live/photos/000/465/cache/space177-omega-nebula_46560_600x450.jpg

If we're not talking about the origin of the Universe, then what "moment" are you referring to? When is the Quran claiming that God told the heaven and the Earth to 'come together willingly or unwillingly'?

Peace,

Ahmad

It is the moment of forming the planet earth,but i'm afraid you are thinking the day at that time was 24 hours,every thing is expected from you.

Wakas

peace AB,

Ok, so this is pretty simple. It's clearly saying that God created the Earth and placed everything upon it during this period. However, the problem comes along in the next passage, which you keep foolishly pointing out

The verse does not say "placed". Simple.

Ahmad_Bilal

Peace, FearGod.

The verses are very clear that the smoke state was after the formation of earth exactly the state once the star is formed and which is described even among scientists as the cosmic cigar.

Again, this makes absolutely no sense, because the Quran says that the Earth already had hills and sustenance on it!

Here's a basic concept for you to ponder How was there sustenance (e.g. food and drink, vegetation and possibly animals) on the Earth, when the sky was "dukhan"/smoke? If you want to talk about the 'cosmic cigar' (I assume you're talking about cosmic dust particles), then you need to understand some very basic astronomical concepts that refute your point -

Cosmic dust is NOT "smoke".
Cosmic dust is present all the time; it doesn't merely occur directly after the formation of stars.
Vegetation (or sustenance) didn't "appear" on the Earth directly after its formation.

It is the moment of forming the planet earth,but i'm afraid you are thinking the day at that time was 24 hours,every thing is expected from you.

I'm not talking about a literal 'moment', I'm talking about a general time period. The Quran says that during this 'moment' (period), God put the heaven and the Earth, which were apparently two entirely separate entities, together into one mass. Again, when did this happen? Does modern cosmology also agree that the Earth was once 'separate' from the rest of the Universe, and that the Earth somehow merged with the rest of the Universe AFTER it already had hills and vegetation on it?

Peace,

Ahmad

Ahmad_Bilal

Peace, Wakas.

The verse does not say "placed". Simple.

Okay, I stand corrected; the verse doesn't say "placed". Thanks for the clarification.

Peace,

Ahmad

FearGod

Peace, FearGod.

Again, this makes absolutely no sense, because the Quran says that the Earth already had hills and sustenance on it!

Here's a basic concept for you to ponder How was there sustenance (e.g. food and drink, vegetation and possibly animals) on the Earth, when the sky was "dukhan"/smoke? If you want to talk about the 'cosmic cigar' (I assume you're talking about cosmic dust particles), then you need to understand some very basic astronomical concepts that refute your point -

Cosmic dust is NOT "smoke".
Cosmic dust is present all the time; it doesn't merely occur directly after the formation of stars.
Vegetation (or sustenance) didn't "appear" on the Earth directly after its formation.

Where did the verse say that there was sustenances,food..etc at the period of formation,
you're trying hard to refute the truth.

http//www.calvin.edu/academic/phys/observatory/images/Astr111.Fall2009/Dykstra-M82-cropped.jpg
This Irregular Galaxy is found in the galaxy Ursa Major, Discovered by Johann Elert Bode on December 31,1774. It is commonly referred to as M82 or Messier 82, as well as the Cigar Galaxy. It can appear to be an irregular galaxy, and could have been a deformed disk galaxy. This is an exciting galaxy that is mostly known for the concentrated, newly forming of stars. An interesting fact about this Cigar Galaxy is that it is the brightest galaxy in the sky under infrared. The galaxy also emitted an explosive gas flow which was a robust origin of radio noise. The gasses are caused by the outflow of the active star formation. As the stars form inside the Cigar Galaxy there are colossal winds formed that exert gas and dust outward.

The Cigar Galaxy used to be similar in size to our own galaxy until the forces from M81, a neighboring galaxy, acted upon it and lost its spiral shape and began forming stars. You can easily see the dust cloud in the image pictured on the outer area of the galaxy. This dust cloud was spread out due to the neighboring galaxies interaction. The dust is what gives it its irregular shape because we are looking at the galaxy from the side view. The bright formations in the center are the newly formed or forming stars. The barrage of new star formation in M82 is 50 times more prevalent than other galaxies.The irregular shape does not fit into any category of galaxies, hence the "irregular" name. This Cigar Galaxy is part of a classification of galaxies that make up less than 20% of all galaxies, being irregular. M82 is approximately 12 million light years away. The linear size of the galaxy is 22,000 light years.

Reference http//www.calvin.edu/academic/phys/observatory/images/Astr111.Fall2009/Dykstra.html

I'm not talking about a literal 'moment', I'm talking about a general time period. The Quran says that during this 'moment' (period), God put the heaven and the Earth, which were apparently two entirely separate entities, together into one mass. Again, when did this happen? Does modern cosmology also agree that the Earth was once 'separate' from the rest of the Universe, and that the Earth somehow merged with the rest of the Universe AFTER it already had hills and vegetation on it?

Peace,

Ahmad

it seems that you are trolling,and trolling has no end.

Again you are saying there was vegetation at that moment,who said there was vegetation,please which verse says so.

Ahmad_Bilal

Peace, FearGod.

Where did the verse say that there was sustenances,food..etc at the period of formation,
you're trying hard to refute the truth.

Are you even reading through this thread? Have you opened the Quran at all? I told you exactly where it says this; I've posted it several times!

Say "Disbelieve ye verily in Him Who created the earth in two Days, and ascribe ye unto Him rivals? He is the Lord of the Worlds. He placed therein firm hills rising above it, and blessed it and measured therein its sustenance in four Days, alike for (all) who ask. Then turned He to the heaven when it was smoke, and said unto it and unto the earth Come both of you, willingly or loth. They said We come, obedient." (Q. 419-11)

In case you're not reading your Quran, it says that God created the Earth, placed hills upon it, blessed it, measured its sustenance, and THEN 'turned to the heaven when it was smoke'... I think you're finally starting to get the point, because even you realize how absurd a claim like this is! How could the heaven be "dukhan"/smoke while there was already sustenance (e.g. vegetation) on the Earth? That doesn't make any sense at all. I'm not trying to refute 'the truth'; I'm just pointing out scientific inconsistencies in the Quran...

Again you are saying there was vegetation at that moment,who said there was vegetation,please which verse says so.

Read the Quranic passage above, and tell me what you think about it.

Peace,

Ahmad

Man_of_Faith

Maybe God's cutting laser was still causing smoke to rise in the air from carving in the mountains when he left the universe to place Himself at an observer's location.

Obviously, this was merely a joke, do not take it seriously.

God bless you

FearGod

Peace, FearGod.

Are you even reading through this thread? Have you opened the Quran at all? I told you exactly where it says this; I've posted it several times!

Say "Disbelieve ye verily in Him Who created the earth in two Days, and ascribe ye unto Him rivals? He is the Lord of the Worlds. He placed therein firm hills rising above it, and blessed it and measured therein its sustenance in four Days, alike for (all) who ask. Then turned He to the heaven when it was smoke, and said unto it and unto the earth Come both of you, willingly or loth. They said We come, obedient." (Q. 419-11)

In case you're not reading your Quran, it says that God created the Earth, placed hills upon it, blessed it, measured its sustenance, and THEN 'turned to the heaven when it was smoke'... I think you're finally starting to get the point, because even you realize how absurd a claim like this is! How could the heaven be "dukhan"/smoke while there was already sustenance (e.g. vegetation) on the Earth? That doesn't make any sense at all. I'm not trying to refute 'the truth'; I'm just pointing out scientific inconsistencies in the Quran...

Read the Quranic passage above, and tell me what you think about it.

Peace,

Ahmad

You're the one who need to study the quran because i have noticed your blatant ignorance
in understanding the quran and even to understand simple things.

And He set therein firm mountains over it, and placed blessings in it, and determined in it its sustenance in four days; equal to all those who ask. (4110) By Muhammed Khan

He placed therein firm hills rising above it, and blessed it and measured therein its sustenance in four Days, alike for (all) who ask; (4110) By Pickthall

And He set therein firm mountains over it, and He blessed it, and He ordained therein its diverse sustenance in four days, equal to those who ask. (4110) By Arberry

And He made/put in it anchors/fixtures/mountains from above it, and He blessed in it, and He predestined/evaluated in it its provision in four days, straight/equal to the askers/questioners . (4110) By Mohamed Ahmed

He placed on it stabilizers (mountains), made it productive, and He calculated its provisions in four days, to satisfy the needs of all its inhabitants. (4110) By Khalifa

He placed firm stabilisers rising above its surface, blessed it with plenty and growth, and ingrained the means of growing its food within it, sufficient for all seekers, in four spans. (4110) By Ahmed Ali

He firmly fixed mountains on the earth, that rise high above its surface, and He blessed the earth. He made arrangements to supply the nourishment needs (for all life forms ever to exist on the earth) in four periods of time. Without exception, (He apportions food) to all who ask for it. (4110) By Munir Munshey

So did you understand from this verse that the earth had already Tomato,orange,banana & monkeys etc or it was planned and arranged to be so at the time of creation (formation of earth).

Ahmad_Bilal