Liberal Muslims and Quranists
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@man of faith
Re
But that hijab should be in the law book is wrong. Each one of us should be allowed to decide ourselves. In this regard I am liberal and embracing liberalism, personal freedom.What do labels which people often use really mean? what does it mean to say that you are a "liberal", "progressive", "conservative" muslim? I have had people tell me that I am "ultra conservative" in my views and at the same time "very liberal". I consider myself as "just a muslim" and I suppose that means I am ultra conservative, liberal, progressive, etc. I am all of that.
Aren't these labels dependent on your perspective and culture? In the western society, I am considered to be conservative in my attire. In the summer time, people are in shorts, tank tops, two piece bikini....Wearing my short sleeve shirt or t-shirt and Capri on the beach - people ask me why I am not in bathing suit. In your society, a woman in short sleeve and Capri would not be considered conservative. In a place like Iran, if a women walked down the road in a two piece bikini, everyone would be looking at her. Here, no one really cares. It is also cultural and generational. I was with my friend who is in her 50's when some teens passed us wearing short-shorts and t-shirt that is three sizes small and we were talking about how times and attitudes have changed.
when I told a guy (a sunni muslim) who i was attracted to and he felt the same about me, that I don't date and expect him to keep a rulers distance from me (no hugging, kissing, holding hands, etc) - he found my views to be extreme and ultra conservative. I don't believe that I am when all that I am doing is avoiding placing myself in a vulnerable situation and distancing myself from potentially committing a sin. I don't think that i am being fundamentalist or radical or extreme in my views. For someone else, kissing and holding hands may not be an issue but this may not be the case for everyone.
So as you said, it is not wrong if you do something (ritual or whatever else) which helps you BUT the problem is when people say this is haram and that is haram and God said this or God said that. And this is how everyone should be.
For instance, you said that you don't wear cologne in some circumstance but to say that it is haram for a guy to wear cologne is wrong. Being a normal heterosexual female, I am attracted to men and certain cologne has the intended affect on me. I find it to be thoughtful and considerate that you don't wear cologne in certain settings but would it be wrong if you did though? Would it be haram if you do? Absolutely not. It should be haram though to wear offensive cologne that makes me want to gag or I can't breathe when a guy douses himself with cologne!! May be, he intends to repel me by wearing cologne! rotfl
The problem I have is when people come with rules/laws and don't think losing sight of what islam is really about. When I was in college after a meeting, I felt unsafe walking back to my car alone in the dark. The two muslim brothers didn't think it was proper to walk me. Seriously! It is haram to walk a woman to her car at night??? brickwall Whenever I found myself in a situation like that, I would ask my non-muslim classmates/friends to walk me to the car or home or give me a ride or help me move furniture, etc.
Islam is so simple, practical, easy, peaceful way of life but yet we make it so complicated, difficult and hard. Why?
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Peace,
I said it is a personal choice. Have I said it is law? It was for my own modesty.
Saying liberal I said nothing related to religion but to political views regarding the decision to apply own "rules". I meant no more label for Muslim.
It was not making it complicated to refrain from cologne and extreme clothes.
God bless you
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@man of faith,
I am not sure I really understand your most recent post. I didn't allege you said anything that I had issues with. if i didnt agree with what you or anyone said, i think that i am pretty good with making myself clear and why I have issues with what you said.
I was commenting and reflecting on the state of affairs of Muslims wondering why people make it harder when Islam (God) intends to make our lives easier. And so, honestly I am a bit baffled by your post. When you said how you are 'liberal' in regard to your views on hijab, I thought it was interesting and also what this thread is about, commenting on what these descriptions really mean may it be religious or political. Am I being liberal in saying that each person should decide for himself or herself what modesty or anything for that matter is? Or am I just being a muslim?
a Sunni muslim who doesn't wear hijab and wears make up is considered liberal muslim. A muslim like me who follows only the Koran alone who doesn't wear a hijab - well I am not even considered a muslim. i went from being a 'good pious practicing" muslim when i wore a hijab to then a 'liberal' 'non practicing' muslim to now not a muslim.
Man of Faith, You live in Iran where hijab is the law of the land that even a non-muslim news reporter has to cover her head. This is wrong. It is not just about hijab but about practically everything else - from nail polish, to perfume, to interacting with sexes to listening to music to a lot of things. The issue that I have is when people go around saying this is haram, that is haram, this is what Islam is or God says. Man of faith, I am not saying that you said. If you did, well you know where I stand
Lately in the news, there is much talk about the two suspects who set off bombs at Boston marathon. So Islam is on the front pages again. One of the suspect was married to a Christian who later converted and she started wearing a hijab. Listening to the news that hijab is Islamic and commanded by God, I thought about writing to the local news that is not true. God did not say that. People need to stop telling lies about God. If a woman thinks that covering herself from head to toe is modest, that's fine but don't say that is what God said or how God defined to be modest. This is the issue that I have.
Dating is not for me but for me to say that God said dating is haram is haram. This is my point. My other point is that people think I am being extreme and fundamental or way too liberal in my ways when all I am is just a muslim. Just my commentary, Man of Faith - having a discussion expressing my opinion, feelings and views. Nothing against you or what you said - just making that clear. )
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Peace justamuslim,
Sorry I made you upset. I must have misunderstood your post. I read it quickly while I was a bit stressed and perhaps did not read carefully enough. I should have refrained from replying at the time. Hope that you excuse me.
I hope you understand that I do not support the government's laws regarding hijab here since it is just an interpretation of the Quran. Many of the so-called Sharia laws have no Quranic basis but are mostly coming from hadith. However, I can admire the modesty here at times, for it is a different culture than I was used to.
God has commanded us, or rather recommended, to be modest and cover as much as necessary. If you read Quran you will see that there are actually some hints at what God means is modest. I agree that traditionally it has been over-interpreted and people make up rules based on this orthodox interpretation.
Also, if one studies the Quran, they can see that God wants that we should not force our belief on others, which cause the laws like the one about hijab to turn into an unholy rule.
Question is how naked a society should allow its inhabitants to be. Sometimes I think there is too much skin in "Western" countries, and did even before I "became" Muslim.
An utterly liberal society the people should be allowed to choose themselves, but some people may be offended by this. But if it became a bit shameful to "show too much", then this would be less of a problem. If a certain behavior is not socially accepted then people will change, but if it is promoted, then of course it will not change. It is difficult actually.
But I am against using the law book to make people change behavior. It is up to the community to set the moral standards. If it is morally wrong to wear mini-skirts then few will do it, if they will hear people mumble things behind them. If a behavior is not approved of then people will refrain from it and do what gives approval instead. It is the community which causes people to act the way they do.
In these measures hijab is on the other extreme compared to mini-skirts.
The hijab does not make you a Muslim. It is your personality and behavior which defines whether you are a one or not. Think of the exact meaning of the definition "Muslim". The hijab may be a tool for you to be modest, like covering your legs with clothing, but it is not ordered by God.
Well, you really need some sort of "dating" before you get married or how are you going to be sure you marry the right person? It is silly to think you are not allowed to meet your future spouse so you get a picture of him or her.
There is really not much which is haraam in Quran except shirk and a few other things. God even warns about forbidding what He has not outright forbidden.
Alcohol is not haraam, it is just not recommended.
Gold is not forbidden for men. That is from hadith.
My Muslim life is quite peaceful and I am not surrounded by rules by a tyrannical "god" (Satan) like those who live under hadith. I feel I am walking along the beach with the Lord and He is with me. I listen to Him and I seek His nearness and guidance as well as protection from the evil one and his followers. I submit to His will.
God bless you
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@man of faith
Not upset with you at all.
About the dating part....Of course, meeting in person to see if there is mutual physical attraction is a must. You can spend time together but holding hands, kissing,hugging - not before marriage for me. why make it hard to control desires? God has made it clear that fornication is a sin and not to go near it. If being with a guy in the same room is going to make it hard on me to control myself then I should not be in the same room with him. But to say that for two people to be in the same room is haram is just nonsense. This is the kind of stuff that I have issues with - dictating people's lives. I suppose the same is true for every community and not exclusive to muslim community.
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peace
Like, Tariq Ramadan and Reza Aslan, I have seen both of them saying that Hijab is NOT compulsory. Infact, Reza emphasises the fact that it is NOWHERE commanded in the Quran.
I'm a bit surprised that you are mentioning Tariq Ramadan and "liberal" in one sentence. Imho Tariq Ramadan is anything but a liberal thinker.I would also be curious to see a source for his statement that hijab is not an obligation because from what I've read he seems to propagate the opposite. But I might be wrong.
As to what I am puzzled is, Do they forget to consult Hadith and Sunnah,
or Do they NOT regard them as a VALUABLE Source.
Have you read Reza Aslan's book? He is very critical of hadith, traditions and classical scholarship.... when the Qur'an warned believers not to "pass on your wealth and property to the feeble-minded (sufaha)," the early Qur'anic commentators -- all of them male -- declared, despite the Qur'ans warnings on the subject, that "the sufaha are women and children ... and both of them must be excluded from inheritance" (emphasis added).
When a wealthy and notable merchant from Basra named Abu Bakra (not to be confused with Abu Bakr) claimed, twenty-five years after Muhammad's death, that he once heard the Prophet say "Those who entrust their affairs to a woman will never know prosperity," his authority as a Companion was unquestioned.
When Ibn Maja reported in his collection of hadith that the Prophet, in answer to a question about the rights a wife has over her husband, replied rather incredibly that her only right was to be given food "when you (yourself) have taken your food," and clothed "when you have clothed yourself," his opinion, though thoroughly against the demands of the Qur'an, went uncontested.
When Abu Said al-Khudri swore he had heard the Prophet tell a group of women "I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religion than you," his memory was unchallenged, despite the fact that Muhammad's biographers present him as repeatedly askin for and following the advice of his wives, even in military matters.
?Reza Aslan ("No God But God"
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Peace Leyna
I think that u have misunderstood my stance a bit. As to what I wanted to say is, although they are critical of Tradition, but have u ever heard a clear cut voice saying that traditions....for that matter many of them ...... are unnecessary and harmful...despite the fact that they propagate to people that... "it is nowhere in the Quran....."...etc etc....
I think they dont do this because of being feared into the label of Quranism etc.......although Reza has quite good to say about Edip's book, a Reformist translation.
Peace
Harun -
Salam,
I think it s very condratibale and also a lack of justice in those lands because the moslim people that live in Europe fight for hijab and burka and don t want to be discriminated while it s oke to wear it in the western society.
When you're in the middel east a non moslim is not allowed to express themselves and have to wear hijab and in the europe they talk about freedom of religion. People should practice what they preach esspecially here in the europe they should talk about their own country being injustice to non believers because nobody is superieur when it comes to freedom -
I was commenting and reflecting on the state of affairs of Muslims wondering why people make it harder when Islam (God) intends to make our lives easier.
Justamuslim Peace.
I agree with most of your perspective. As for why people make it harder, well i think they view it as easier that way, stay in line with the established religion to get a free passport to heaven. No need to think and do much, follow the leader and steadfast to rituals. I was a sunni. handshake -
The unique of Islam in my place is
According to my national constitution, the residences must have a religion and cannot contaminate religion's name.My country is not secular, so that's why Ministry of Religion existed in goverment.
But in reality, most Muslim in here did somethings outside deen teaching.In here most Muslimah not wear hijab, they can sex with partner, drank alcohol as they wish in the bars etc.
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Peace,
There are also liberal Sunnis and Shi'ites. We can see liberal Sunnis in Turkey and Azerbaijan for example.
Regards,
Yuliana. -
Peace,
There are also liberal Sunnis and Shi'ites. We can see liberal Sunnis in Turkey and Azerbaijan for example.
Regards,
Yuliana.Not the Sunni-Shites which made them liberal, but the national constitution (secular).
The example of Islam liberal is this http//islamlib.com/?site=2.Allah via His Quran, already gave us more liberty such like
- Freedom of religion (2256 and Al Kafeerun)
- We already liberated from some Taurat's law such like stoning, circumcision etc.
Peace
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Peace,
The reason I wrote it was because my point is not all liberal muslims are Qur'an-only muslims. There are also Sunnis and Shi'ites who are liberal? They don't support Sharia and hudood laws etc.
Regards,
Yuliana -
Peace.
Sunni derived from roots Ahlul Sunnah, this means the people who following sunnah (baseless hadith).
Shia literally means follower, follower of Ahlul Bayt.Then Liberal Muslim didn't follow that hadith nor (alleged) Ahlul Bayt teaching like the website I provide to you.This means they're not Sunni or Shiah.
Read this if you want know more https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_movements_within_Islam
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Peace,
IMHO they are not true Sunnis or Shi'ites but what make them Sunnis/Shi'ites etc are their basic pillars? their shahada and salat etc. ? even though many of these people abandon salat etc because they are not concerned about religions. I believe that sometimes they do quote good and lovable hadiths that don't make Islam look bad. I have many Sunni friends who are like these. They believe that whatver they are taught at school about Islam to be true but they don't support polygamy, Sharia and hudood laws but they say the 2 shahada etc.
Regards,
Yuliana -
My belief is that it is not the label but the principles as Rashad Khalifa said You can be a muslim submitter, christian submitter, jewish submitter or even Hindu and deist Submitter the important thing is that we agree on the same Principles and Reza Aslan is very intelligent but then he claims to be A Sufi and Sunni muslims wont take him seriously. I think all of us whether liberal or quranists must ally ourselves with thosse who share our ideals and unify ourselves against the evil of Sunni Islam(not sunni muslims).