How sex before Marriage is not haram (prohibited) according to the Quran
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Again I want to separate the apples from pears here. I think it is wrong to "use" a disease as a tool to make people believe or to follow the word of God. The guidelines regarding abstinence in not only sex but alcohol and gambling has nothing to do with keeping you as an individual safe. God is not telling you to not drink because it is bad for you but He sees the consenquences it has on your family and society. Gambling as well, it will make your family suffer more than it will make you suffer..........And of course sex...... Who can surely be at risk if you have uncommitted sex? You? Your partner? or the child that will grow up without a father? Who do you think that God is trying to protect? The active party or the innocent victim?
Well whether Alcohol and gambling is in the quran or not is another topic , but their accesive use can be dangerous , with same logic the risk factor for aids with accesive sex with multiple partners also increases.
I agree though the marriage/ or commitment with your partner is essentially to safeguard / lookafter your partner and any ofspring that may result.And the best comittment is in front of witnesses - then you will no doubt feel and be more accountable regarding your comitmitment to the results of the relationship, without such commitments one person can easily be let down when they may be needy.
peace
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Well whether Alcohol and gambling is in the quran or not is another topic , but their accesive use can be dangerous , with same logic the risk factor for aids with accesive sex with multiple partners also increases.
I agree though the marriage/ or commitment with your partner is essentially to safeguard / lookafter your partner and any ofspring that may result.And the best comittment is in front of witnesses - then you will no doubt feel and be more accountable regarding your comitmitment to the results of the relationship, without such commitments one person can easily be let down when they may be needy.
peace
Salam
I agree with you, but now you are mixing the apples with the pears
Drinking and gambling is explained in the Quran as something we should be very careful with.....Why? because in it there is evil (2219). Simple and easy to understand. In 591 the evil in question is explained more specifically, that alcohol and gambling can lead to enemies and hatred towards eachother. So we are to stay away from such things not because of what impact it has on our liver or wallet, but because of the impact it has on society as a whole.
Almost the same could be said for "zina", or "shameful deeds" as one may interpret it. Good explanation to why we should stay away is in 1732 where it tells us to stay away from temptation because it may lead to a path of shameless and sinful manner.
But is there any further explanation as with drinking and gambling? Yes there is, but this time it is not because it will create enemies and hatred but because "zina" can lead us away from Allah.....The story of LOT is of course the cr?me-de-la-cr?me of what could happen to us if we live in shame and sin. In 1716 a similar way is described with yet again a stern warning to the community not to let shameful deeds spread to the extent when society forgets/shuns Allah. In both verses Allah will destroy the community totally, no-one will be spared, children, women, men, married, unmarried........Now are the children and married people destroyed by Allah because they have/had sex before marriage? According to you the answer is yes. When you say the spread of HIV (creation of Allah) is the result of non-abstinence you are indirectly saying Allah has given this disease to those who are living in sin. By saying that you are directly giving HIV the credential to be regarded as Allah's punishment for the wicked.
Yes, I know you haven't said it in those words. You said living in abstinence (according to the Quran) is a good way to control disease. But what you really said could easily be misquoted into what I claim you said. Unfortunately the misquotes are normally what people hear and listen to, especially if they do not possess the knowledge that you do.Now, falling in love does not make you forget Allah, no matter what age you are. On the contrary it makes you thankful to Him. Having sexual intercourse does not make you forget Allah, no matter what age you are. On the contrary it makes you closer to Him.
That is why I find it dangerous ground to walk on to (eventhough unintentionally) link any kind of disease to any kind of religion. Just like I mentioned before with my sister whose handicap was in Egypt regarded as a punishment from Allah. My sisters handicap is not different from any disease. A child infected by HIV from the mother is not being punished, it is the path chosen by Allah. A mother infected by her cheating husband is not being punished, it is her path set by Allah. A cheating husband infected by HIV is not punished by Allah, he is punished by mankind with a hundred stripes.
Letting your physical desire govern you to the extent it makes you forget Allah.....Well, you will be judged accordingly on the day of Judgement.
We humans are not to judge, we are not to say it is haram or not. We should leave that up to the One that truly knows the truth. We should not use the religion as a cure of a disease, no matter how good the intentions are. The reason is because even in the most gentle of societies there will always be someone who will look upon the sick as punished by Allah. This is wrong IMO because if the punishment comes (here on earth) it will strike down the entire society, not the individual. -
There is four points against sex before marriage
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There is nothing in Abrahamic teaching in Christian n Jews, which told sex before marriage is allowed.
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There is no point, "posses right hand" in 2431 transalated into boyfriend or sex slaves.Posses right hand, it means a person who become second "hand" of another person.It has conotation meaning, so it's mean a person who did another person's work.So "posses right hand" means slave,maid.
What criterion of slave? If the slaves is a mature man, it means the slaves already married with her (43, 424). -
We cannot meet secretly a person which different gender from us unless "there is something important to discuss", look on 2235.
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Even hadith contradict sharia and Quranic law, but not so in "historical account".With hadith, we can know Arabic cultures in that time.Yet we will not find girlfriend-boyfriend cultures in hadith.
Like @pixelrow said, "sex before marriage" is liberal western cultures and it's nothing to do with Islam.
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There is four points against sex before marriage
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There is nothing in Abrahamic teaching in Christian n Jews, which told sex before marriage is allowed.
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There is no point, "posses right hand" in 2431 transalated into boyfriend or sex slaves.Posses right hand, it means a person who become second "hand" of another person.It has conotation meaning, so it's mean a person who did another person's work.So "posses right hand" means slave,maid.
What criterion of slave? If the slaves is a mature man, it means the slaves already married with her (43, 424). -
We cannot meet secretly a person which different gender from us unless "there is something important to discuss", look on 2235.
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Even hadith contradict sharia and Quranic law, but not so in "historical account".With hadith, we can know Arabic cultures in that time.Yet we will not find girlfriend-boyfriend cultures in hadith.
Like @pixelrow said, "sex before marriage" is liberal western cultures and it's nothing to do with Islam.
So eastern non-liberal culture has something to do with Islam?
Look Earthdom and pixelrow.............who has ever condoned the way of the western culture in any of the posts here? Both of you are flagrantly blaming western culture as a bad influence on Islam and the personal desires of the believers. Based on what? Jersey Shore? To be against the notion of "no sex before marriage" does not automatically mean your opinion is that sex should be "free".
I see the evil ways of the western cultures by letting sex become "free". But I also see the evil ways of the so-called Islamic communities that are marrying off their daughters at a very young age, sometimes against their will.
There is a fundamental difference between them though. One is justifying their cultural ways in the name of God and the other one is trying to free itself from the "shackles" of religion.Which one do you think I think is the hypocrite. One that changes the law of God or one that declares it will not follow the law of God?
As a believer one must look into what the Quran reeaaally says and one must realize that the Quran is for everyone regardless of culture. One must realize that our individual or community interpretation of what "marriage" means is only our interpretation. For example I do not consider a 12-year old girl as legally married, but in other parts of the world it is totally legitimate.
As a believer one must find out what Allah means by "married", not what the court/mosque/church/synagouge says. Where do we find it? Quran of course............It turns out that whenever the Quran describes what marriage could mean it is all about love and respect
2574
And they who say O our Lord! grant us in our wives and our offspring the joy of our eyes, and make us guides to those who guard (against evil).3021
And one of His signs is that He created mates for you from yourselves that you may find rest in them, and He put between you love and compassion; most surely there are signs in this for a people who reflect.Where are the rituals? Where does it say that we must follow only one "style" of wedding?
I don't think all that nonsense is important to Allah. As long as we are true in our hearts and treat our spouse with respect and loyalty, then all that other matter is not so important.
A "boyfriend" can love his "girlfriend" just as much that a husband can love his wife. A 14-year old can love the same as a 40-year old. Since we are guided by the Quran and the Quran interprets "marriage" in the way of above verses, then yes sex before "marriage" is allowed. However, sex without love, respect and committment is not allowed.
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Sorry @Emil, please don't misinterpreted my post.I never pointing western cultures, but what I pointing is liberalism.
Please slow down your emotion.You may recognize it too, from where the liberalism came? The answer is West right.
I never say western culture is bad, eastern culture is good.Eastern cultures also have bad things too, like voodoo and another shirk.Even in my place, some Muslims still believe n do some shirk or black magics like santet.
For @Emil or another users, who saw me as an anti-western.Let me clarify, I'm not a facism who hate this, hate that.I like western cultures too, I like Rolling Stones, Beattles, Scorpion, Mr Bean, Spongebob, Hollywood etc.
I'm not possessed by any dangerous ideology.I'm just a pure Muslim )
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A "boyfriend" can love his "girlfriend" just as much that a husband can love his wife. A 14-year old can love the same as a 40-year old. Since we are guided by the Quran and the Quran interprets "marriage" in the way of above verses, then yes sex before "marriage" is allowed. However, sex without love, respect and committment is not allowed.
That is basically a marriage - i think.
So sex is allowed when love, respect and committment is there - i suppose in every culture , but it has different names peace
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That is basically a marriage - i think.
So sex is allowed when love, respect and committment is there - i suppose in every culture , but it has different names peace
Sex before marriage is NOT allowed in Islam. This is simply conforming to Western Ideals - by changing the religion to suit your own desires. There is no translation of the Quran that allows this.
There is no expert of Arabic who would advocate any such translation. End of.
People on here tendto make anything up . . .
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"Look Earthdom and pixelrow.............who has ever condoned the way of the western culture in any of the posts here? Both of you are flagrantly blaming western culture as a bad influence on Islam and the personal desires of the believers. Based on what? Jersey Shore? To be against the notion of "no sex before marriage" does not automatically mean your opinion is that sex should be "free". "
The evidence is over-whelming Edip Yuksel's Quran translation is ANYTHING but changing Quran to suit Western Ideals. That is wrong on every level. Whether one actually admits it or not . . . is of little consequence . . . because the similarities become very apparent - hence - it is easy to decipher where the motivation of such position comes from. Westernism.
Yuksel simply invents meaning for Arabic from himself - those that ARE not present and have never been advocated by anyone before him.
"I see the evil ways of the western cultures by letting sex become "free". But I also see the evil ways of the so-called Islamic communities that are marrying off their daughters at a very young age, sometimes against their will. "
Islam forbids marriage against will and those that have not reached puberty
Yet this has no real bearing on debate whether - sex outside of marriage is allowed. It isn't.
"As a believer one must look into what the Quran reeaaally says and one must realize that the Quran is for everyone regardless of culture. One must realize that our individual or community interpretation of what "marriage" means is only our interpretation. For example I do not consider a 12-year old girl as legally married, but in other parts of the world it is totally legitimate."
In other words - bit of hocus pocus . . . invent new meaning that did not exist before . . . curse all the past Muslims . . . then sideline with Westernism. Look you are going to do it now . . .
As far as I know - ALL Muslim countries have set age of marriage legally at after puberty - that is plus sixteen.
"As a believer one must find out what Allah means by "married", not what the court/mosque/church/synagouge says. Where do we find it? Quran of course............It turns out that whenever the Quran describes what marriage could mean it is all about love and respect"
No - it is a simple social/financial function . . . but proper societal function.
"Where are the rituals? Where does it say that we must follow only one "style" of wedding?"
Right here . . .
And do not marry those whom your fathers married, except what has already occurred. Indeed, it was an immorality and hateful and was evil as a way.
Guess - what NaKaHa - is alluding to?
"I don't think all that nonsense is important to Allah. As long as we are true in our hearts and treat our spouse with respect and loyalty, then all that other matter is not so important."
No - that is YOU projecting YOUR nonsense unto God. And not taking the command of Allah.
Marriage HAS always been an institution . . . it was for those before us and it still continues.
"A "boyfriend" can love his "girlfriend" just as much that a husband can love his wife. A 14-year old can love the same as a 40-year old. Since we are guided by the Quran and the Quran interprets "marriage" in the way of above verses, then yes sex before "marriage" is allowed. However, sex without love, respect and committment is not allowed."
Oh . . . and you were denying Westernism . . . . such things DESTROY society . . . as the Western Society is destroyed.
This is BS you invented . . . Quran has nothing to do with it. . . . that is why you pick the verses that suit your argument . . . . and miss out those that do not.
Consider the verse
424
"And married women except those your right hands possess. the decree of Allah upon you. And lawful to you are beyond these, that you seek them with your property, desiring chastity, not unlawful sexual intercourse. So for whatever you enjoy from them, give them their due compensation as an obligation. And there is no blame upon you for what you mutually agree to beyond the obligation. Indeed, Allah is ever Knowing and Wise."
So why did you miss this verse out?
Let us look at this verse
"And marry the unmarried among you and the righteous among your male slaves and female slaves. If they should be poor, Allah will enrich them from His bounty, and Allah is all-Encompassing and Knowing."
This is a direct command to marry. A powerful social institution. Not your nonsense
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This is simply conforming to Western Ideals
I suggest you to change the word western into liberalism or put liberal before word western
Do you know, some members in this forum lives in western hermisphere, so I think we musn't create some hostility.
I know you're Sunni fanatism, you're doctrined to hate Western cultures, hate USA, hate Israel.When I still a Sunni fanatism, I was doctrined the same too by radical Ulamas.I nearly became radical person, but I'm educated people, so I can filter their doctrine.
@Pixelrow you must became open minded, not all western cultures is unIslamic n not all eastern cultures is Islamic.
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"Do you know, some members in this forum lives in western hermisphere, so I think we musn't create some hostility."
So do I. . . but what has that got to do with it? Nazism grew from West . . . when you have a go at it . . . why do you think West will be offended?
"I know you're Sunni fanatism"
No you don't.
" you're doctrined to hate Western cultures"
Wrong . . . I hate many Western Ideals.
"hate USA, hate Israel."
It is real stupidity to hate "countries" or their people. Don't project that onto me.
"When I still a Sunni fanatism, I was doctrined the same too by radical Ulamas.I nearly became radical person, but I'm educated people, so I can filter their doctrine."
Whatever your story is/was - has NOTHING to do with me . . . you claim to be "educated" - yet you failed to see the fallacy of projecting your personal story to others.
"you must became open minded, not all western cultures is unIslamic n not all eastern cultures is Islamic."
Doh! So open minded - that you set about changing your own religion to the Ideals of others . . .
No thank you . . . that is one dishonesty I will not commit. And will fight against it.
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Peace,
Open-minded, does that not mean you are open to ideas from all people / sources?
Since when are Sunni muslims open-minded to arguments from people of other religions/faiths?
I am taking good elements from many sources, including science, psychology, Buddhism, Christianity and I try to listen to what people have to say as long as they do not misbehave because then I do not want to have anything to do with them. God spare me from associating myself with them.
I can understand why people want to be immoral and just let go and have sex in every case they like. Answer is it is pleasant and carefree and it is socially accepted behavior, but it is actually unhealthy and demoralizing. But since these people want to have it like this you cannot force them through arrogant rules or it does not help to look down on them.
I have a question; can you understand why these people here choose to disregard hadith and only read the Quran, even hypothetically? If your answer is no then you are not open-minded.
Empathy is a sign of being open-minded, even if you do not sympathize.
God bless you that you may calm down
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Peace,
Open-minded, does that not mean you are open to ideas from all people / sources?
Since when are Sunni muslims open-minded to arguments from people of other religions/faiths?
I am taking good elements from many sources, including science, psychology, Buddhism, Christianity and I try to listen to what people have to say as long as they do not misbehave because then I do not want to have anything to do with them. God spare me from associating myself with them.
I can understand why people want to be immoral and just let go and have sex in every case they like. Answer is it is pleasant and carefree and it is socially accepted behavior, but it is actually unhealthy and demoralizing. But since these people want to have it like this you cannot force them through arrogant rules or it does not help to look down on them.
I have a question; can you understand why these people here choose to disregard hadith and only read the Quran, even hypothetically? If your answer is no then you are not open-minded.
Empathy is a sign of being open-minded, even if you do not sympathize.
God bless you that you may calm down
"I have a question; can you understand why these people here choose to disregard hadith and only read the Quran, even hypothetically? If your answer is no then you are not open-minded."
Illogical - being "open-minded" has absolutely nothing to do with the false parameters you set. . . .
It is kind of obvious you will say something like this . . . as this is your position - hence you seek some sort of validity for it. But this attempt is fallacious.
Why would someone's open-mindedness be confined to paying homage to your views? Doesn't such attempt show your closed mindedness?
In that you chose to limit open-mindedness to be an agreement to your views? That to me isn't very open-minded.
"can you understand why these people here choose to disregard hadith and only read the Quran, even hypothetically?"
Of course I understand . . . . but I have no regard for this position whatsoever . . . and hold it to be 100% incorrect.
"Since when are Sunni muslims open-minded to arguments from people of other religions/faiths?"
What are you on about? You very quick on attacking others . . . yet come out against any perceived attacks on your views. Isn't considering Sunni Muslims NOT to be er . . . open-minded actually being closed minded? After all you are saying this about perhaps over a billion people? A group comprised of so much diversity?
Were people like al-Briuni or Ibn al-Arabi er . . . enlightened Sunni scholars? And among the greatest humans minds?
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Peace,
I attack your behavior, not what you believe in. You disturb the peace here with your aggressive tone and nonchalant behavior. I will let you be because you are not receptive to any form of sensible communication. I do not attack peaceful people with a different opinion.
You show yourself close-minded when you come forth with you hadith arguments.
I choose to not use hadith for any association with religion and that will probably never change. Your arguments are futile, I have my deen and you have yours.
May God lead your way
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"I attack your behavior, not what you believe in. You disturb the peace here with your aggressive tone and nonchalant behavior. I will let you be because you are not receptive to any form of sensible communication. I do not attack peaceful people with a different opinion."
Perceived bad behaviour . . . and you took it upon yourself to sort me out. Your solution . . . follow me around different pages - and leaving personal comments and passing some pretty horrendous judgements!
This is why the old adage . . . don't fight violence with violence. The danger is you might end up committing the same crime you set forth to stop.
"You show yourself close-minded when you come forth with you hadith arguments."
Hardly . . . the evidence points out that it is YOU who is closed minded . . . because when your views are attacked - you cannot take it. Hence - throw petty accusations
"I choose to not use hadith for any association with religion and that will probably never change.
What were you saying about closed mindedness?
Your arguments are futile, I have my deen and you have yours."
It is OBVIOUS you will say this . . . the merit is in proving me wrong . . . that you are not able to do . . .
Hence - you repeatedly embroil in petty squabbles. . .
Simple . . . why did you bother to reply - Especially after saying you will ignore me - by adding nothing to the discussion - other than to demonise me?
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EARTHDOM! Sorry, you are right, I apologise......I was a too trigger happy.
PIXELROW
Yuksel simply invents meaning for Arabic from himself - those that ARE not present and have never been advocated by anyone before him.
Isnt it better to ask me what translation I am reading before putting a comment about brother Edips translation into an answer that was intended for me?
Islam forbids marriage against will and those that have not reached puberty
What bubble do you live in? My mother in law, born and raised in a muslim country, was married by the age of 12.
Yet this has no real bearing on debate whether - sex outside of marriage is allowed. It isn't.
No, it was the debate that you are blaming western culture as a bad influence on Islam. I was pointing out that there is bad influence from eastern culture as well.
In other words - bit of hocus pocus . . . invent new meaning that did not exist before . . . curse all the past Muslims . . . then sideline with Westernism. Look you are going to do it now . . .
Who is saying anything about cursing or sidelining? A westerner must have the right to follow Islam based on the Quran and not an Islam influenced by culture.
I think this is the thing that you have missed when you were studying the Quran. If you would try to read it for what it is you will find out that the Quran is applicalble to almost every society. It works, you dont need to understand any other culture than you own.
I understand this is difficult to accept for a man like you, that "your" religion has been accepted by people that do not accept your culture. I have been there too.As far as I know - ALL Muslim countries have set age of marriage legally at after puberty - that is plus sixteen.
And there is (virtually) not ONE single homosexual in any of the muslim countries...............Come on, get real.........
No - it is a simple social/financial function . . . but proper societal function.
You have chosen to see the Quran as a rulebook, I have chosen to see it as the bearer of the straight path to God.
Right here . . .
And do not marry those whom your fathers married, except what has already occurred. Indeed, it was an immorality and hateful and was evil as a way.
Guess - what NaKaHa - is alluding to?
I was more talking about what to wear.....how the procedures go, who is allowed to sign the Nikkah, how many witnesses, should it be in the mosque?
Those are the "rituals" I was asking you to produce from the Quran, not who I am allowed or not allowed to marry. Those are rules, not rituals.
No - that is YOU projecting YOUR nonsense unto God. And not taking the command of Allah.
Yes, guilty of preaching........but you should have picked up on the first three words of my sentence "I think that...." If I would have derived my entire conclusion from the Quran without any personal opinion I would have written "According to the Quran....."
Marriage HAS always been an institution . . . it was for those before us and it still continues.
Marriage has always been an institution, but what you fail to see is what marriage should be about according to Islam.
Oh . . . and you were denying Westernism . . . . such things DESTROY society . . . as the Western Society is destroyed.
I am not denying westernism. I am a westerner, how can I deny my own culture? I am not particularly happy about some parts of my own culture.
Again, can I know what your bubble is called? When you say Western society is destroyed, what particular western society are you referring to?
You got to be careful with statements like such, you are flirting with racism, my dear brother.This is BS you invented . . . Quran has nothing to do with it. . . . that is why you pick the verses that suit your argument . . . . and miss out those that do not.
Consider the verse
424
"And married women except those your right hands possess. the decree of Allah upon you. And lawful to you are beyond these, that you seek them with your property, desiring chastity, not unlawful sexual intercourse. So for whatever you enjoy from them, give them their due compensation as an obligation. And there is no blame upon you for what you mutually agree to beyond the obligation. Indeed, Allah is ever Knowing and Wise."
So why did you miss this verse out?
Let us look at this verse
"And marry the unmarried among you and the righteous among your male slaves and female slaves. If they should be poor, Allah will enrich them from His bounty, and Allah is all-Encompassing and Knowing."
This is a direct command to marry. A powerful social institution. Not your nonsense
You are absolutely right. The verses above are describing who to marry and what financial aspects should be in place in order to marry. But they are not describing what marriage means, that is why they are not applicable to my argument.
Can you see the difference? If you ask me to marry you I must know what "criteria" you must fulfil, not only that you are from the right set of people and you got the money, but I must also know you will treat me good with respect and honour. If I find you unattractive and not very fond of you it is unfair of me to marry you only because you are rich. I must respect and honour you also
2574
And they who say O our Lord! grant us in our wives and our offspring the joy of our eyes, and make us guides to those who guard (against evil).3021
And one of His signs is that He created mates for you from yourselves that you may find rest in them, and He put between you love and compassion; most surely there are signs in this for a people who reflect.That is why I said that sex before marriage is not haram because the institution of "marriage" does not include above verses, meaning that the "nikkah" or whatever you may find suitable to call it does not have the power to legitimize sex between two individuals.
What you fail to see is that sometimes the "western liberal" is in fact adhering to a much stricter and conservative Islam than you do. I think that the view you have of what a legitimate marriage should include is not legitimate at all. Allah wants more than that. He wants you to respect and love your spouse, something that has been missed in (virtually) all muslim countries.
You are in fact the liberal westerner here with your efforts to influence Islam to make it fit into your culture.
If the question would have been "Are two individuals allowed to engage in sex without any committment, love and respect to eachother?" Then my answer is a definate NO.
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Peace pixelrow,
I do not care if you are right or wrong. You have your opinion.
God bless you
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"Isnt it better to ask me what translation I am reading before putting a comment about brother Edips translation into an answer that was intended for me?"
WRONG. . . look at what you said
"who has ever condoned the way of the western culture in any of the posts here?"
I have given you a who. This has nothing to do with what version you are reading.
"What bubble do you live in? My mother in law, born and raised in a muslim country, was married by the age of 12. "
Inappropriate answer. . . whether or not your mother-inlaw was married at 12 does not answer - if any country allows marriage at 12. Of course that happens . . . still. But cultural practices have nothing to do with either Islam or with formal government law.
Take FGM - in some countries it still occurs - banned on a worldly level.
"No, it was the debate that you are blaming western culture as a bad influence on Islam. I was pointing out that there is bad influence from eastern culture as well."
Still wrong. As bad influence of Eastern Culture was not under debate. Sex outside marriage - is a negative Western influence.
"Who is saying anything about cursing or sidelining? A westerner must have the right to follow Islam based on the Quran and not an Islam influenced by culture.
I think this is the thing that you have missed when you were studying the Quran. If you would try to read it for what it is you will find out that the Quran is applicalble to almost every society. It works, you dont need to understand any other culture than you own.
I understand this is difficult to accept for a man like you, that "your" religion has been accepted by people that do not accept your culture. I have been there too."huh? I will repeat - sex outside marriage is FORBIDDEN . . . .end of. In fact it is YOU changing Islam to suit your positions . . . else . . . a Western convert comes to Islam. He too obeys the law like everyone else. And change the religion to suit.
"And there is (virtually) not ONE single homosexual in any of the muslim countries...............Come on, get real........."
Another bizarre and meaningless response! Look what you are answering to!
As far as I know - ALL Muslim countries have set age of marriage legally at after puberty - that is plus sixteen.
You have chosen to see the Quran as a rulebook, I have chosen to see it as the bearer of the straight path to God.
blah! what does this mean? So when Quran says marry - over and over . . . what you are saying - yo will ignore that? And do whatever you want? Whatever the heart desires . . .
THOSE are the verses . . . I DID NOT WRITE THEM. I follow them . . . you it seems pick and choose.
"I was more talking about what to wear.....how the procedures go, who is allowed to sign the Nikkah, how many witnesses, should it be in the mosque?
Those are the "rituals" I was asking you to produce from the Quran, not who I am allowed or not allowed to marry. Those are rules, not rituals."No you were NOT. Look what you have said
"A "boyfriend" can love his "girlfriend" just as much that a husband can love his wife. A 14-year old can love the same as a 40-year old. Since we are guided by the Quran and the Quran interprets "marriage" in the way of above verses, then yes sex before "marriage" is allowed. However, sex without love, respect and committment is not allowed."
Sex before marriage is NOT allowed.
Marriage in Quran does NOT equal to "love" only . . . and if 2 people got together like in West that is marriage.
No it isn't.
"Yes, guilty of preaching........but you should have picked up on the first three words of my sentence "I think that...." If I would have derived my entire conclusion from the Quran without any personal opinion I would have written "According to the Quran.....""
Read this
"I don't think all that nonsense is important to Allah. As long as we are true in our hearts and treat our spouse with respect and loyalty, then all that other matter is not so important."
Now you are making a poor attempt at back-tracking. Your opinion IS derived and about Quran . . . else why does it matter?
"Marriage has always been an institution, but what you fail to see is what marriage should be about according to Islam."
Wrong . . . read all the back-tracking above . . . you claim I have er . . .failed - but just saying this has NO MERIT whatsoever.
"I am not denying westernism. I am a westerner, how can I deny my own culture? I am not particularly happy about some parts of my own culture.
Again, can I know what your bubble is called? When you say Western society is destroyed, what particular western society are you referring to?
You got to be careful with statements like such, you are flirting with racism, my dear brother."That is one truly pathetic response . . . what a load of nonsense . . . what has racism got to do here?
Destruction of NUCLEAR family in West is disastrous and 100% against Islam. Having children out of Wedlock, one night stands, divorce rates . . . destruction of marriage . . .
"You are absolutely right. The verses above are describing who to marry and what financial aspects should be in place in order to marry. But they are not describing what marriage means, that is why they are not applicable to my argument."
No - they are describing what MARRIAGE is . . . and this is what you attacked. Marriage is NOT 2 people shacking up . . . but a formal union.
"Can you see the difference? If you ask me to marry you I must know what "criteria" you must fulfil, not only that you are from the right set of people and you got the money, but I must also know you will treat me good with respect and honour. If I find you unattractive and not very fond of you it is unfair of me to marry you only because you are rich. I must respect and honour you also"
These are no in question.
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"That is why I said that sex before marriage is not haram because the institution of "marriage" does not include above verses, meaning that the "nikkah" or whatever you may find suitable to call it does not have the power to legitimize sex between two individuals."
I find this plain NONSENSE . . . .
That is what Nikah is there for. Its whole purpose . . . outside of it - Sex is not allowed. Hence why to circumvent this . . .people attempt to change meanings of words - and simply invent their own.
You quoted this
2574
And they who say O our Lord! grant us in our wives and our offspring the joy of our eyes, and make us guides to those who guard (against evil).Read it . . .then you are saying "wives" has nothing to do with marriage?
Those do NOT permit sex outside marriage . . . it is a ridiculous jump.
"What you fail to see is that sometimes the "western liberal" is in fact adhering to a much stricter and conservative Islam than you do."
huh? Are you for real . . . this is simply ridiculous. What sex outside marriage - is strict Islam?
"I think that the view you have of what a legitimate marriage should include is not legitimate at all. Allah wants more than that. He wants you to respect and love your spouse, something that has been missed in (virtually) all muslim countries."
Nonsense - sheer nonsense. So you are saying . . . over 1 billion humans cannot love their spouse?
"You are in fact the liberal westerner here with your efforts to influence Islam to make it fit into your culture. "
This gets even more bizarre . . .at 1st you claim the "Western Liberal" is even more of a conservative Muslim that me . . . now I am the "Western Liberal"
"If the question would have been "Are two individuals allowed to engage in sex without any committment, love and respect to eachother?" Then my answer is a definate NO. "
Can I ask . . . are you on drugs? One has to ask!
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Pixelrow peace be upon you,
One wonders - what do you hope to achieve here as an orthodox Muslim? There are forums where people share your opinions, where they won't seem like they're 'on drugs', talking 'nonsense', 'liars' or whatever else you think of us. So if you want to let us know your motivation, that'd be great.
And also how do you think Prophet Muhammad would have debated with people? Like you are? He was after all, according to tainted orthodoxy 'the best of creation'.
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Pixelrow peace be upon you,
One wonders - what do you hope to achieve here as an orthodox Muslim? There are forums where people share your opinions, where they won't seem like they're 'on drugs', talking 'nonsense', 'liars' or whatever else you think of us. So if you want to let us know your motivation, that'd be great.
And also how do you think Prophet Muhammad would have debated with people? Like you are? He was after all, according to tainted orthodoxy 'the best of creation'.
My dearest . . it seems you do not have anything to add. Hence it is you who does what you claim is wrong with me. Why?
I will give you an example . . . if I have called someone a "liar" - without justification . . . show me?
I called FearGod liar . . . and he is. I have prove he lied.
Someone who lies - is called a liar.
Simple.
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Read the above?
Out of all that . . . my asking the person - "Is he on drugs?" seems to have jumped up? Really?
Li-maza?
It is a fair question . . . given the absolutely bizarre responses.