How sex before Marriage is not haram (prohibited) according to the Quran
-
Peace,
I attack your behavior, not what you believe in. You disturb the peace here with your aggressive tone and nonchalant behavior. I will let you be because you are not receptive to any form of sensible communication. I do not attack peaceful people with a different opinion.
You show yourself close-minded when you come forth with you hadith arguments.
I choose to not use hadith for any association with religion and that will probably never change. Your arguments are futile, I have my deen and you have yours.
May God lead your way
-
"I attack your behavior, not what you believe in. You disturb the peace here with your aggressive tone and nonchalant behavior. I will let you be because you are not receptive to any form of sensible communication. I do not attack peaceful people with a different opinion."
Perceived bad behaviour . . . and you took it upon yourself to sort me out. Your solution . . . follow me around different pages - and leaving personal comments and passing some pretty horrendous judgements!
This is why the old adage . . . don't fight violence with violence. The danger is you might end up committing the same crime you set forth to stop.
"You show yourself close-minded when you come forth with you hadith arguments."
Hardly . . . the evidence points out that it is YOU who is closed minded . . . because when your views are attacked - you cannot take it. Hence - throw petty accusations
"I choose to not use hadith for any association with religion and that will probably never change.
What were you saying about closed mindedness?
Your arguments are futile, I have my deen and you have yours."
It is OBVIOUS you will say this . . . the merit is in proving me wrong . . . that you are not able to do . . .
Hence - you repeatedly embroil in petty squabbles. . .
Simple . . . why did you bother to reply - Especially after saying you will ignore me - by adding nothing to the discussion - other than to demonise me?
-
EARTHDOM! Sorry, you are right, I apologise......I was a too trigger happy.
PIXELROW
Yuksel simply invents meaning for Arabic from himself - those that ARE not present and have never been advocated by anyone before him.
Isnt it better to ask me what translation I am reading before putting a comment about brother Edips translation into an answer that was intended for me?
Islam forbids marriage against will and those that have not reached puberty
What bubble do you live in? My mother in law, born and raised in a muslim country, was married by the age of 12.
Yet this has no real bearing on debate whether - sex outside of marriage is allowed. It isn't.
No, it was the debate that you are blaming western culture as a bad influence on Islam. I was pointing out that there is bad influence from eastern culture as well.
In other words - bit of hocus pocus . . . invent new meaning that did not exist before . . . curse all the past Muslims . . . then sideline with Westernism. Look you are going to do it now . . .
Who is saying anything about cursing or sidelining? A westerner must have the right to follow Islam based on the Quran and not an Islam influenced by culture.
I think this is the thing that you have missed when you were studying the Quran. If you would try to read it for what it is you will find out that the Quran is applicalble to almost every society. It works, you dont need to understand any other culture than you own.
I understand this is difficult to accept for a man like you, that "your" religion has been accepted by people that do not accept your culture. I have been there too.As far as I know - ALL Muslim countries have set age of marriage legally at after puberty - that is plus sixteen.
And there is (virtually) not ONE single homosexual in any of the muslim countries...............Come on, get real.........
No - it is a simple social/financial function . . . but proper societal function.
You have chosen to see the Quran as a rulebook, I have chosen to see it as the bearer of the straight path to God.
Right here . . .
And do not marry those whom your fathers married, except what has already occurred. Indeed, it was an immorality and hateful and was evil as a way.
Guess - what NaKaHa - is alluding to?
I was more talking about what to wear.....how the procedures go, who is allowed to sign the Nikkah, how many witnesses, should it be in the mosque?
Those are the "rituals" I was asking you to produce from the Quran, not who I am allowed or not allowed to marry. Those are rules, not rituals.
No - that is YOU projecting YOUR nonsense unto God. And not taking the command of Allah.
Yes, guilty of preaching........but you should have picked up on the first three words of my sentence "I think that...." If I would have derived my entire conclusion from the Quran without any personal opinion I would have written "According to the Quran....."
Marriage HAS always been an institution . . . it was for those before us and it still continues.
Marriage has always been an institution, but what you fail to see is what marriage should be about according to Islam.
Oh . . . and you were denying Westernism . . . . such things DESTROY society . . . as the Western Society is destroyed.
I am not denying westernism. I am a westerner, how can I deny my own culture? I am not particularly happy about some parts of my own culture.
Again, can I know what your bubble is called? When you say Western society is destroyed, what particular western society are you referring to?
You got to be careful with statements like such, you are flirting with racism, my dear brother.This is BS you invented . . . Quran has nothing to do with it. . . . that is why you pick the verses that suit your argument . . . . and miss out those that do not.
Consider the verse
424
"And married women except those your right hands possess. the decree of Allah upon you. And lawful to you are beyond these, that you seek them with your property, desiring chastity, not unlawful sexual intercourse. So for whatever you enjoy from them, give them their due compensation as an obligation. And there is no blame upon you for what you mutually agree to beyond the obligation. Indeed, Allah is ever Knowing and Wise."
So why did you miss this verse out?
Let us look at this verse
"And marry the unmarried among you and the righteous among your male slaves and female slaves. If they should be poor, Allah will enrich them from His bounty, and Allah is all-Encompassing and Knowing."
This is a direct command to marry. A powerful social institution. Not your nonsense
You are absolutely right. The verses above are describing who to marry and what financial aspects should be in place in order to marry. But they are not describing what marriage means, that is why they are not applicable to my argument.
Can you see the difference? If you ask me to marry you I must know what "criteria" you must fulfil, not only that you are from the right set of people and you got the money, but I must also know you will treat me good with respect and honour. If I find you unattractive and not very fond of you it is unfair of me to marry you only because you are rich. I must respect and honour you also
2574
And they who say O our Lord! grant us in our wives and our offspring the joy of our eyes, and make us guides to those who guard (against evil).3021
And one of His signs is that He created mates for you from yourselves that you may find rest in them, and He put between you love and compassion; most surely there are signs in this for a people who reflect.That is why I said that sex before marriage is not haram because the institution of "marriage" does not include above verses, meaning that the "nikkah" or whatever you may find suitable to call it does not have the power to legitimize sex between two individuals.
What you fail to see is that sometimes the "western liberal" is in fact adhering to a much stricter and conservative Islam than you do. I think that the view you have of what a legitimate marriage should include is not legitimate at all. Allah wants more than that. He wants you to respect and love your spouse, something that has been missed in (virtually) all muslim countries.
You are in fact the liberal westerner here with your efforts to influence Islam to make it fit into your culture.
If the question would have been "Are two individuals allowed to engage in sex without any committment, love and respect to eachother?" Then my answer is a definate NO.
-
-
Peace pixelrow,
I do not care if you are right or wrong. You have your opinion.
God bless you
-
"Isnt it better to ask me what translation I am reading before putting a comment about brother Edips translation into an answer that was intended for me?"
WRONG. . . look at what you said
"who has ever condoned the way of the western culture in any of the posts here?"
I have given you a who. This has nothing to do with what version you are reading.
"What bubble do you live in? My mother in law, born and raised in a muslim country, was married by the age of 12. "
Inappropriate answer. . . whether or not your mother-inlaw was married at 12 does not answer - if any country allows marriage at 12. Of course that happens . . . still. But cultural practices have nothing to do with either Islam or with formal government law.
Take FGM - in some countries it still occurs - banned on a worldly level.
"No, it was the debate that you are blaming western culture as a bad influence on Islam. I was pointing out that there is bad influence from eastern culture as well."
Still wrong. As bad influence of Eastern Culture was not under debate. Sex outside marriage - is a negative Western influence.
"Who is saying anything about cursing or sidelining? A westerner must have the right to follow Islam based on the Quran and not an Islam influenced by culture.
I think this is the thing that you have missed when you were studying the Quran. If you would try to read it for what it is you will find out that the Quran is applicalble to almost every society. It works, you dont need to understand any other culture than you own.
I understand this is difficult to accept for a man like you, that "your" religion has been accepted by people that do not accept your culture. I have been there too."huh? I will repeat - sex outside marriage is FORBIDDEN . . . .end of. In fact it is YOU changing Islam to suit your positions . . . else . . . a Western convert comes to Islam. He too obeys the law like everyone else. And change the religion to suit.
"And there is (virtually) not ONE single homosexual in any of the muslim countries...............Come on, get real........."
Another bizarre and meaningless response! Look what you are answering to!
As far as I know - ALL Muslim countries have set age of marriage legally at after puberty - that is plus sixteen.
You have chosen to see the Quran as a rulebook, I have chosen to see it as the bearer of the straight path to God.
blah! what does this mean? So when Quran says marry - over and over . . . what you are saying - yo will ignore that? And do whatever you want? Whatever the heart desires . . .
THOSE are the verses . . . I DID NOT WRITE THEM. I follow them . . . you it seems pick and choose.
"I was more talking about what to wear.....how the procedures go, who is allowed to sign the Nikkah, how many witnesses, should it be in the mosque?
Those are the "rituals" I was asking you to produce from the Quran, not who I am allowed or not allowed to marry. Those are rules, not rituals."No you were NOT. Look what you have said
"A "boyfriend" can love his "girlfriend" just as much that a husband can love his wife. A 14-year old can love the same as a 40-year old. Since we are guided by the Quran and the Quran interprets "marriage" in the way of above verses, then yes sex before "marriage" is allowed. However, sex without love, respect and committment is not allowed."
Sex before marriage is NOT allowed.
Marriage in Quran does NOT equal to "love" only . . . and if 2 people got together like in West that is marriage.
No it isn't.
"Yes, guilty of preaching........but you should have picked up on the first three words of my sentence "I think that...." If I would have derived my entire conclusion from the Quran without any personal opinion I would have written "According to the Quran.....""
Read this
"I don't think all that nonsense is important to Allah. As long as we are true in our hearts and treat our spouse with respect and loyalty, then all that other matter is not so important."
Now you are making a poor attempt at back-tracking. Your opinion IS derived and about Quran . . . else why does it matter?
"Marriage has always been an institution, but what you fail to see is what marriage should be about according to Islam."
Wrong . . . read all the back-tracking above . . . you claim I have er . . .failed - but just saying this has NO MERIT whatsoever.
"I am not denying westernism. I am a westerner, how can I deny my own culture? I am not particularly happy about some parts of my own culture.
Again, can I know what your bubble is called? When you say Western society is destroyed, what particular western society are you referring to?
You got to be careful with statements like such, you are flirting with racism, my dear brother."That is one truly pathetic response . . . what a load of nonsense . . . what has racism got to do here?
Destruction of NUCLEAR family in West is disastrous and 100% against Islam. Having children out of Wedlock, one night stands, divorce rates . . . destruction of marriage . . .
"You are absolutely right. The verses above are describing who to marry and what financial aspects should be in place in order to marry. But they are not describing what marriage means, that is why they are not applicable to my argument."
No - they are describing what MARRIAGE is . . . and this is what you attacked. Marriage is NOT 2 people shacking up . . . but a formal union.
"Can you see the difference? If you ask me to marry you I must know what "criteria" you must fulfil, not only that you are from the right set of people and you got the money, but I must also know you will treat me good with respect and honour. If I find you unattractive and not very fond of you it is unfair of me to marry you only because you are rich. I must respect and honour you also"
These are no in question.
= = = = = =
"That is why I said that sex before marriage is not haram because the institution of "marriage" does not include above verses, meaning that the "nikkah" or whatever you may find suitable to call it does not have the power to legitimize sex between two individuals."
I find this plain NONSENSE . . . .
That is what Nikah is there for. Its whole purpose . . . outside of it - Sex is not allowed. Hence why to circumvent this . . .people attempt to change meanings of words - and simply invent their own.
You quoted this
2574
And they who say O our Lord! grant us in our wives and our offspring the joy of our eyes, and make us guides to those who guard (against evil).Read it . . .then you are saying "wives" has nothing to do with marriage?
Those do NOT permit sex outside marriage . . . it is a ridiculous jump.
"What you fail to see is that sometimes the "western liberal" is in fact adhering to a much stricter and conservative Islam than you do."
huh? Are you for real . . . this is simply ridiculous. What sex outside marriage - is strict Islam?
"I think that the view you have of what a legitimate marriage should include is not legitimate at all. Allah wants more than that. He wants you to respect and love your spouse, something that has been missed in (virtually) all muslim countries."
Nonsense - sheer nonsense. So you are saying . . . over 1 billion humans cannot love their spouse?
"You are in fact the liberal westerner here with your efforts to influence Islam to make it fit into your culture. "
This gets even more bizarre . . .at 1st you claim the "Western Liberal" is even more of a conservative Muslim that me . . . now I am the "Western Liberal"
"If the question would have been "Are two individuals allowed to engage in sex without any committment, love and respect to eachother?" Then my answer is a definate NO. "
Can I ask . . . are you on drugs? One has to ask!
-
Pixelrow peace be upon you,
One wonders - what do you hope to achieve here as an orthodox Muslim? There are forums where people share your opinions, where they won't seem like they're 'on drugs', talking 'nonsense', 'liars' or whatever else you think of us. So if you want to let us know your motivation, that'd be great.
And also how do you think Prophet Muhammad would have debated with people? Like you are? He was after all, according to tainted orthodoxy 'the best of creation'.
-
Pixelrow peace be upon you,
One wonders - what do you hope to achieve here as an orthodox Muslim? There are forums where people share your opinions, where they won't seem like they're 'on drugs', talking 'nonsense', 'liars' or whatever else you think of us. So if you want to let us know your motivation, that'd be great.
And also how do you think Prophet Muhammad would have debated with people? Like you are? He was after all, according to tainted orthodoxy 'the best of creation'.
My dearest . . it seems you do not have anything to add. Hence it is you who does what you claim is wrong with me. Why?
I will give you an example . . . if I have called someone a "liar" - without justification . . . show me?
I called FearGod liar . . . and he is. I have prove he lied.
Someone who lies - is called a liar.
Simple.
= = =
Read the above?
Out of all that . . . my asking the person - "Is he on drugs?" seems to have jumped up? Really?
Li-maza?
It is a fair question . . . given the absolutely bizarre responses.
-
Peace pixelrow,
'Dearest' - nice sarcasm. I did discuss with you, but just like other discussions/debates I've had, it was pointless. We were much more at odds than anything else. I have more I could have said in that post, but I held back. I don't see the point in discussing any further. Instead, I'm just wondering what you hope to achieve here. You didn't answer that. I think a lot of people who read this thread will wonder about that.
-
Pixelrow peace be upon you,
One wonders - what do you hope to achieve here as an orthodox Muslim? There are forums where people share your opinions, where they won't seem like they're 'on drugs', talking 'nonsense', 'liars' or whatever else you think of us. So if you want to let us know your motivation, that'd be great.
And also how do you think Prophet Muhammad would have debated with people? Like you are? He was after all, according to tainted orthodoxy 'the best of creation'.
-
PIXELROW
WRONG. . . look at what you said
"who has ever condoned the way of the western culture in any of the posts here?"I have given you a who. This has nothing to do with what version you are reading.
I asked you who has condoned the way of the western culture in any of the posts HERE. Has brother Edip joined this discussion? FYI I do not read the f-m translation of the Quran
"What bubble do you live in? My mother in law, born and raised in a muslim country, was married by the age of 12. "
Inappropriate answer. . . whether or not your mother-inlaw was married at 12 does not answer - if any country allows marriage at 12. Of course that happens . . . still. But cultural practices have nothing to do with either Islam or with formal government law.
You said that in muslim countries you are not allowed to marry before puberty. This is not the case. The bubble I was referring to is your ignorance as to see what happens in practice, not in theory.
Take FGM - in some countries it still occurs - banned on a worldly level.
That is exactly my point. It is a cultural habit that has been introduced into religion. It is banned but people do it because it doesnt matter what the authorities say, it is sunnah to do it and the sunnah is more legit than the law of the country. Same goes for honour killings. Cultural way of a society implemented into religion to give it more "authority"
"No, it was the debate that you are blaming western culture as a bad influence on Islam. I was pointing out that there is bad influence from eastern culture as well."
Still wrong. As bad influence of Eastern Culture was not under debate. Sex outside marriage - is a negative Western influence.Sex outside marriage is a Western influence? Really, what about the nice Nikah mut?ah or Sigheh? That is of course completely legit?
"Who is saying anything about cursing or sidelining? A westerner must have the right to follow Islam based on the Quran and not an Islam influenced by culture.
I think this is the thing that you have missed when you were studying the Quran. If you would try to read it for what it is you will find out that the Quran is applicalble to almost every society. It works, you dont need to understand any other culture than you own.
I understand this is difficult to accept for a man like you, that "your" religion has been accepted by people that do not accept your culture. I have been there too."huh? I will repeat - sex outside marriage is FORBIDDEN . . . .end of. In fact it is YOU changing Islam to suit your positions . . . else . . . a Western convert comes to Islam. He too obeys the law like everyone else. And change the religion to suit
I agree that sex outside marriage is forbidden, but I challenge your perception of what marriage means.
FYI I am not a convert. I am not changing Islam to suit my position, I am only challenging the dogma within Islam.
"And there is (virtually) not ONE single homosexual in any of the muslim countries...............Come on, get real........."
Another bizarre and meaningless response! Look what you are answering to!
As far as I know - ALL Muslim countries have set age of marriage legally at after puberty - that is plus sixteen.
Ok, that was my way of asking you if you believe in fairytales.....
You have chosen to see the Quran as a rulebook, I have chosen to see it as the bearer of the straight path to God.
blah! what does this mean? So when Quran says marry - over and over . . . what you are saying - yo will ignore that? And do whatever you want? Whatever the heart desires . . .
THOSE are the verses . . . I DID NOT WRITE THEM. I follow them . . . you it seems pick and choose
.Yes I do choose what my heart desires because that is where my belief in Allah derives from. I want to understand the spirit of the Quran as well as the rules. To follow rules are easy but it is against the Quran to follow without understanding.
You choose to follow the rule that sex outside the marriage is forbidden. I follow those rules too. I never said I disagreed to any of the rules of marriage that is described in the Quran. I have not deliberatly chosen to ignore them. What I am saying is in order to get married there must also be mutual compassion and respect between the partners. That is the first and foremost because if that doesnt exist then none of the rules matter because they cannot get married anyways.
It seems I have an understanding of the spiritual side of the marriage as it is described in the Quran while you choose to think that following the rules are most important and that will in some way make you understand Allah better. I am not saying that I have a better understanding, but I am saying that you must at least try to see the spiritual side, maybe it will make you understand the rules instead of just following them.
Marriage as an institution according to traditional Islam does not recognise the first and foremost criteria for marriage.
Marriage in Quran does NOT equal to "love" only . . . and if 2 people got together like in West that is marriage.
That is right, but the term "marriage" as percieved by tradtional Islam does not include compassion and respect. Again, that is why the term "marriage" is misleading and it does not qualify as a stamp of approval for sex.
"I don't think all that nonsense is important to Allah. As long as we are true in our hearts and treat our spouse with respect and loyalty, then all that other matter is not so important."
Now you are making a poor attempt at back-tracking. Your opinion IS derived and about Quran . . . else why does it matter?It is not backtracking. It is my personal opinion that Allah sees gently on those that can live in a marriage that is respectful and compassionate and can provide a happy and safe upbringing of their children. It is better they marry the "wrong" person and live happily ever after instead of marrying the "right" person and live a life in misery.
"I am not denying westernism. I am a westerner, how can I deny my own culture? I am not particularly happy about some parts of my own culture.
Again, can I know what your bubble is called? When you say Western society is destroyed, what particular western society are you referring to?
You got to be careful with statements like such, you are flirting with racism, my dear brother."That is one truly pathetic response . . . what a load of nonsense . . . what has racism got to do here?
Destruction of NUCLEAR family in West is disastrous and 100% against Islam. Having children out of Wedlock, one night stands, divorce rates . . . destruction of marriage . . .
Racism......sorry wrong word because now I realize that the common interpretation of racism has to with colour of the skin.
So let me rephrase. You got to be careful because you are on the borderline to discrimination. Just like many westerners think all muslims are hiding a bomb in their beard many muslims think all westerners screw around, drink too much and do not care about family. This of course is wrong to think.
"You are absolutely right. The verses above are describing who to marry and what financial aspects should be in place in order to marry. But they are not describing what marriage means, that is why they are not applicable to my argument."
No - they are describing what MARRIAGE is . . . and this is what you attacked. Marriage is NOT 2 people shacking up . . . but a formal union.
Obviously I have failed to make you see the difference between rule and meaning. Let's break this down....
Rule
Has the woman reached maturity?
Has the man reached maturity?
Is there a dowry in place?
Has the man means to support his spouse?
etc. etc.If all above checks out, they are allowed to be married.
What does marriage mean?
A bond between a man and a woman built on mutual respect and compassion (according to the Quran).
Who is the witness of such bond?
Only Allah can see the true intent in their hearts (according to the Quran).Once I have checked off the rules and made my promise in the name of Allah to my future spouse I have done what is required of me. I am "married". Allah does not recognise a paper signed by the right person, he does not recognise one particular ceremony. He recognises that you have the means to start a family and the true intent of your heart. That you happen to call it by a name doesnt change anything. You can call it marriage, boyfriend/girlfriend, shacking up or whatever, it doesnt change what the "bond" is all about.
"I think that the view you have of what a legitimate marriage should include is not legitimate at all. Allah wants more than that. He wants you to respect and love your spouse, something that has been missed in (virtually) all muslim countries."
Nonsense - sheer nonsense. So you are saying . . . over 1 billion humans cannot love their spouse?
No, I am saying that there was no criteria to love and respect when they got married. When I got married in the mosque not a single person asked me if I loved my bride........and no-one asked her....just an example.
"You are in fact the liberal westerner here with your efforts to influence Islam to make it fit into your culture. "
This gets even more bizarre . . .at 1st you claim the "Western Liberal" is even more of a conservative Muslim that me . . . now I am the "Western Liberal"
Yes, by your definition of what a western liberal is, then you fit the description more than I do. I am trying to cleanse my understanding of Islam from outside influence whilst you are defending to keep influence by the outside.
"If the question would have been "Are two individuals allowed to engage in sex without any committment, love and respect to eachother?" Then my answer is a definate NO. "
Can I ask . . . are you on drugs? One has to ask!
No, sorry to disappoint you. I am completely lucid.
Can I ask.........could you take some? You need to kick back and let the world float by in pretty colours. I think that would do you good )
-
Salam,
I agree with you nimnimak_11 thanks for sharing your opinion cause you made some valid points. I also think that it's against law of nature and it's about your intention. It's weird that you have to commit to justify pleasure, like a human can't have pleasure without paying some price for it. very interesting thread.
peace.
-
Peace,
I don't see anything wrong with commitment, if anything it encourages a level of friendship, respect and love that fits the intimacy involved in sexual intercourse.
Emil and others (apologies, I'm not sure who it was now) have made some very good points on this thread earlier about the different types of 'marriage' and what marriage can mean in the context of the Quran. As far as I'm aware, it doesn't tell you to have a ceremony in order for it to be an actual marriage. So, a long term boyfriend/girlfriend relationship - although I avoid these terms - where commitment is absolutely clear and its essentially a marriage without the paper and ceremony - that could be completely valid in terms of the Quran.
A commitment to another individual, that is based truly on a desire to be together and share your life with one another, should be something that is celebrated and encouraged, not considered a price to be paid in my personal opinion.
This just made me think of how some people say humans are animals so therefore, sexual promiscuity is more acceptable. Technically, yes humans are mammals, but firstly, why would that mean we do things how certain types of animals do them - there is a lot that would be impractical if we did things the way some animals do, and secondly some animals mate for life anyway.
-
"I asked you who has condoned the way of the western culture in any of the posts HERE. Has brother Edip joined this discussion? FYI I do not read the f-m translation of the Quran"
This site is by Yuksel - as far as I understand. As for someone proclaiming Westernism - it is you. And everyone affected by Yuksel's thought.
"You said that in muslim countries you are not allowed to marry before puberty. This is not the case. The bubble I was referring to is your ignorance as to see what happens in practice, not in theory."
Which was a silly thing to say.
"Sex outside marriage is a Western influence? Really, what about the nice Nikah mut?ah or Sigheh? That is of course completely legit?"
Another poor point. Temporary marriage is ONLY sanctioned by Shia. And technically - that is sex within marriage - not outside!
"I agree that sex outside marriage is forbidden, but I challenge your perception of what marriage means."
Good - I am glad we finally got there . . . sex is forbidden outside the marriage.
This was never a debate about what my perception of marriage are . . . as you never asked after them . . .
Second - you did imply quite explicitly that sex-outside of marriage is allowed.
And the you sort of went somewhat haywire.
"You choose to follow the rule that sex outside the marriage is forbidden. I follow those rules too. I never said I disagreed to any of the rules of marriage that is described in the Quran."
I am going to disagree - YOU DID - imply that sex outside marriage is allowed.
Look at your terminology . . . boyfried/girlfriend. . .
All this fandango about "spirit of Quran" and whatnot . . .
Look . . . do human s REALLY need to be taught love? Not really. Else as you mention - Quran does instruct as to be kind, love and whatnot to their spouse . . .
Why is it do you think more than billion others cannot read them verses and gain something?
"while you choose to think that following the rules are most important"
You do not 2 things about me . . . and neither did you bother to ask. Giant leaps there . . . isn't it better to find out rather than make up things about me?
"but I am saying that you must at least try to see the spiritual side, maybe it will make you understand the rules instead of just following them."
How do you know - what and what not I see or don't see. . . . on what basis?
I have your thoughts . . .to which I objected to . . . what thoughts of mine are you objecting to?
"Marriage as an institution according to traditional Islam does not recognise the first and foremost criteria for marriage. "
Poppycock - and utter tosh. WHo are you to decide - what is and isn't "first and foremost criteria for marriage".
And who gave you that authority? Do you have some secret understanding?
And is your understanding more worthy than - any old Zayd Bark Umar - then on what criteria?
"That is right, but the term "marriage" as percieved by tradtional Islam does not include compassion and respect. Again, that is why the term "marriage" is misleading and it does not qualify as a stamp of approval for sex. "
More made up rubbish. . . and utterly wrong.
I don't believe that you are THAT stupid.
What are you going to claim next? More than a billion people do not have compassion for their families?
Are you going to say this about Kuffar?
Love and compassion is with Humans - as their essential nature but we all as humans know this basic difference between right and wrong.
"It is my personal opinion that"
Which has absolutely NO GUARANTEE whether it is right or wrong. And why are you dictating your "personal opinions" to others?
"Once I have checked off the rules and made my promise in the name of Allah to my future spouse I have done what is required of me. I am "married". Allah does not recognise a paper signed by the right person, he does not recognise one particular ceremony. He recognises that you have the means to start a family and the true intent of your heart. That you happen to call it by a name doesnt change anything."
Utter tosh. Given that it is Allah who has set the rules . . . so why did he bother . . . if they are NOT meant to be followed?
And how do you know what Allah wants/not wants - other than the Quran?
"You can call it marriage, boyfriend/girlfriend, shacking up or whatever, it doesnt change what the "bond" is all about."
Of course it does . . .100% it matters.
This
"boyfriend/girlfriend"
by its very nature implies - NOT MARRIED.
"No, I am saying that there was no criteria to love and respect when they got married. When I got married in the mosque not a single person asked me if I loved my bride........and no-one asked her....just an example."
Why should anyone ask you about love? In a formal ceremony of marriage - as dictated by Quran - asking about LOVE has got notihng to do about it. It is a basic assumption - you will have compassion for your wife . . . what is the point of asking? Of whose interest would that be?
I have NEVER in my life heard of anyone getting married in a mosque . . .
"Yes, by your definition of what a western liberal is, then you fit the description more than I do. I am trying to cleanse my understanding of Islam from outside influence whilst you are defending to keep influence by the outside."
Read the above - your comments have the habit of betraying you . . . I do not think you are being fully honest. Atop - you said one thing . . . then you changed it.
You started off with you believe sex outside marriage is NOT ALLOWED . . . then you changed it back.
Make you mind up!
"No, sorry to disappoint you. I am completely lucid. "
Pity - at least then you would have had an excuse.
"Can I ask.........could you take some? You need to kick back and let the world float by in pretty colours. I think that would do you good ) "
I guess - this too would be for you - in the spirit of Quran.
Whatever your heart desires . . . . automatically - It is spirit of the Quran.
-
Peace,
I don't see anything wrong with commitment, if anything it encourages a level of friendship, respect and love that fits the intimacy involved in sexual intercourse.
Emil and others (apologies, I'm not sure who it was now) have made some very good points on this thread earlier about the different types of 'marriage' and what marriage can mean in the context of the Quran. As far as I'm aware, it doesn't tell you to have a ceremony in order for it to be an actual marriage. So, a long term boyfriend/girlfriend relationship - although I avoid these terms - where commitment is absolutely clear and its essentially a marriage without the paper and ceremony - that could be completely valid in terms of the Quran.
A commitment to another individual, that is based truly on a desire to be together and share your life with one another, should be something that is celebrated and encouraged, not considered a price to be paid in my personal opinion.
This just made me think of how some people say humans are animals so therefore, sexual promiscuity is more acceptable. Technically, yes humans are mammals, but firstly, why would that mean we do things how certain types of animals do them - there is a lot that would be impractical if we did things the way some animals do, and secondly some animals mate for life anyway.
"As far as I'm aware, it doesn't tell you to have a ceremony in order for it to be an actual marriage. "
There is clear indication. . . and in many verses . . . the whole purpose of the word Nikah. Although this ceremony - is more of a declaration or intent - making state and society aware . . . a bit like issuing of birth certificate. Although the purpose of marriage certificate is for state purposes only . . . there is no requirement under Islam. One does not have to have an Imam either.
There is nothing special about it - however there is nothing forbidding - that you cannot celebrate it - as long as you do not commit anything unlawful.
The point being . . . akin to Western society - where teens start to have "relationships" - that is forbidden.
"So, a long term boyfriend/girlfriend relationship - although I avoid these terms - where commitment is absolutely clear and its essentially a marriage without the paper and ceremony - that could be completely valid in terms of the Quran."
Wrong. Even "a long term boyfriend/girlfriend relationship" is wrong. Whole purpose of marriage is declaration of intent - to society.
-
'Dearest' - nice sarcasm.
Hahaha,after reading all @Pixelrow posts.No doubt again, @Pixelrow actually still a teenager who still has unstable personality.
I attack your behavior, not what you believe in. You disturb the peace here with your aggressive tone and nonchalant behavior. I will let you be because you are not receptive to any form of sensible communication. I do not attack peaceful people with a different opinion.
Yes @Pixelrow, this forum is not a brawl clubs.
Anyways in Sunni teaching, we're not taught to be agressive toward people, do name calling or another bad words.
I asked you who has condoned the way of the western culture in any of the posts HERE. Has brother Edip joined this discussion? FYI I do not read the f-m translation of the Quran
I'm so sad about this, @Edip Yuksel, @Abdal Quran, @Arnold Yasin left this forum.Because they're important Islamic Reform scholar, their existence in here is important too.
-
I agree with @Emil.The Quran only command us to niqah, but Quran doesn't say how and what tradition, rituals we must used.
By joining this forum, I am happy meet another user who has different background and cultures, and what I learn from this forum is God created human in differences (4913), so there is no superior n divine culture in this world.Although when I first left Sunni to join Quran alone, my dogmas against west still stuck in my minds, but I'm a scholar and I can easilly erased the dogmas.
@Pixelrow you must learn it too.
Same for the marriage, each people has own marriage tradition n cultures.
So for boyfriend-girlfriend relationship if it proposed just for a steps for marriage, I think it's allowed in Islam.But I still cannot say is Sex before marriage allowed in ISlam or not. -
One of the God's commandments says "You shall not commit adultery." Adultery is sex outside marriage, with person you are not married to, and there is no such a thing as a temporary marriage in Quran btw.
In my opinion muslims who cannot keep their pants up are not real muslims.
peace
-
I agree with @Emil.The Quran only command us to niqah, but Quran doesn't say how and what tradition, rituals we must used.
By joining this forum, I am happy meet another user who has different background and cultures, and what I learn from this forum is God created human in differences (4913), so there is no superior n divine culture in this world.Although when I first left Sunni to join Quran alone, my dogmas against west still stuck in my minds, but I'm a scholar and I can easilly erased the dogmas.
@Pixelrow you must learn it too.
Same for the marriage, each people has own marriage tradition n cultures.
So for boyfriend-girlfriend relationship if it proposed just for a steps for marriage, I think it's allowed in Islam.But I still cannot say is Sex before marriage allowed in ISlam or not.Salam Earthdom
Well said.
I also think the term boyfriend/girlfriend is very misleading. It all depends on where you come from. In my corner of the world it holds a quite high status, much higher I imagine than in the US for example.......
We do not get married in this country...........not many anyways.........Reason being is the judicial court has empowered the boyfriend/girlfriend relationship with the same protective laws (inheritance, financial obligations) as a marriage.
So if you live with a person that you have a sexual relationship with you are by default (without signing any papers) "married" according to the law ..............However technically speaking you are not "married" because you never had the ceremony nor signed any papers........ confusedAnyways, when people are referring to their boyfriend/girlfriend they live with, most of them refer to them as "my wife/husband".............and that I think is the important part, that they have all the intentions to "belong" to one person only.
So I think the term boyfriend/girlfriend can create a lot of confusion between us because those terms are interpreted differently depending on who we are speaking to.
One of the God's commandments says "You shall not commit adultery." Adultery is sex outside marriage, with person you are not married to, and there is no such a thing as a temporary marriage in Quran btw.
In my opinion muslims who cannot keep their pants up are not real muslims.
A boyfriend can be an adulterer if he has sex with someone other than his girlfriend. That "adultery" holds the same status as if he was married.
Again, it comes down to the definition of the term boyfriend/girlfriend.I think a lot of people are against the notion that sex is allowed for non-married people because they automatically assume everybody will start having sex left and right. Like you said that muslims cannot keep their pants up are not real muslims. Is there anyone here promoting promiscuity???? Is there anyone here who says that sex should be "free"???? Is there anyone here who is trying to bring in bad influences of an atheist community into Islam????
The question here is what the Quran says and not the question of what intentions people have who argue against the wedding ritual. We need to find proof in the Quran that the as-we-know it marriage is the ONLY marriage that is condoned by Allah. So far I have not found any proof, instead I have found the description of what the "bond" between a man and woman is all about.
BTW I do not agree with the opening post on this thread. I think he has left out many important aspects. But still I agree with him only because he refers to "marriage" as a ritual, and this I do not think is the only "marriage" that is legitimate.
PIXELROW
This site is by Yuksel - as far as I understand. As for someone proclaiming Westernism - it is you. And everyone affected by Yuksel's thought.
I am not even going to argue with you anymore. You are clearly set on believing that we are all followers of Edip Yuksel and not the Quran. I have failed to make you see that there is a difference between rules of marriage and the meaning of marriage. For this I am sorry.
Since my rethorical skills are not good I will used someone else's words. The following are extracts from a thesis written byMuhammad Yunus and approved by al-Azhar al-Sharif, Cairo and recommended by Dr. Khaled Abou El Fadl, Alfi Distinguished Professor of Law at the UCLA School of Law."The Qur?an treats sexuality as a divine bounty. It recognizes human impulse of love and mercy for the opposite sex (3021), allows the members of either sex without specifying any age to have admiration for a believing member of the opposite sex (2221). Its verses directly relating to sexuality also invoke divine mercy (7189) and heedfulness of God (taqwa) (2223) thereby precluding any notion of sexual abuse or coercion as widely practiced in many Muslim lands and committed by some Muslim husbands against their wives."
"As a woman is divinely ordained to bear the burden and pain of pregnancy, delivery and nursing of the baby, a man remains under the divine obligation to take her full care as her qawwamah (434)"
"?And among His signs is that He has created for you, of yourselves, spouses (azwaj), that you may feel tranquility and relief (taskunu) in her and (He) has set love and mercy between you. There are signs in this for a people who reflect? (3021).
Historically, in most societies, love before marriage was condemned, while spouses in wedlock often concealed their love. This was because the feeling of love between man and woman was eyed with mute contempt or perhaps jealousy, while marriage was regarded as a purely biological necessity aimed at procreation. The verse acknowledges the spiritual and emotional attachment between the opposite sexes, and asks humans to reflect on this. Furthermore, the etymology of the word azwaj, (spouses) is suggestive of a pair of the opposite sexes, which indicates monogamy as a social norm, and leaves no ground to privilege one of the pair (such as male as traditionally held) over the other."
"The Qur?an makes a very passing reference to sexology blending this core human instinct with moral imperatives.
?He is the One who created you from a single soul and made its spouse (zauja) from it that he may feel tranquility and relief (yaskun) in her. Then when he has covered her, she bears a light burden and goes about with it. And when she grows heavy, they both pray to God, their Lord, ?if you give us a healthy (child), we shall indeed be grateful? (7189).
By employing the root SKN for the blessings of the sexual union the Qur?an acknowledges the divinity of sexual gratification and fulfillment. Elsewhere in the Qur?an the same root word (sakinah) is employed to convey the divine bliss and serenity that God sent down upon the Prophet and his companions at moments of utmost anguish and despair .
The Qur?an, however, allows sexual relationship between a man and a woman only through wedlock and gives full freedom in this regard ? albeit within broader paradigms of morality."
I don't want to post the entire thesis because it would be very long and very time consuming for anyone to read. I however read it one long night and I could not find anywhere a part that described the meaning of "wedlock" and "marriage". Not with a Quranic reference at least.
Why? Because there is no description in the Quran of what legal documents or rituals are required of a marriage to be legitimate. It is up to society to use their own culture and history to make up the "ceremony" as they please. If a couple lives in a society where the term "boyfriend/girlfriend" encompasses the Quranic criteria of the bond between man and woman, then their sexual relationship is HALAL.
If the couple lives in a society that sees "boyfriend/girlfriend" as a temporary sexual relationship, then their relationship is not according to the Qurans definition, thus making their sexual relationship Haram -
I also think the term boyfriend/girlfriend is very misleading. It all depends on where you come from. In my corner of the world it holds a quite high status, much higher I imagine than in the US for example.......
Where do you come from? boyfriend/girlfriend are universally known as a relationship that is NOT formal .
"We do not get married in this country...........not many anyways.........Reason being is the judicial court has empowered the boyfriend/girlfriend relationship with the same protective laws (inheritance, financial obligations) as a marriage. "
Meaningless . . . as Quran does NOT recognise non-Muslim authority. Nikah is a formal societal agreement.
"So if you live with a person that you have a sexual relationship with you are by default (without signing any papers) "married" according to the law ..............However technically speaking you are not "married" because you never had the ceremony nor signed any papers........ "
Utter tosh. Reading this line . . . where you say - TECHNICALLY SPEAKING
"Anyways, when people are referring to their boyfriend/girlfriend they live with, most of them refer to them as "my wife/husband".............and that I think is the important part, that they have all the intentions to "belong" to one person only."
Wrong. On all counts. That is NOT marriage. And no one refers to their boyfriend/girlfriend as wife/husband. No one . . . as the terms are NOT synonymous
"So I think the term boyfriend/girlfriend can create a lot of confusion between us because those terms are interpreted differently depending on who we are speaking to."
No hey cannot.
= = = =
"A boyfriend can be an adulterer if he has sex with someone other than his girlfriend. That "adultery" holds the same status as if he was married.
Again, it comes down to the definition of the term boyfriend/girlfriend."Absolute rubbish . . . you are just making it up. Islam/Quran DOES NOT recognise a relationship that is NOT formal. End of.
"Is there anyone here promoting promiscuity???? Is there anyone here who says that sex should be "free"???? Is there anyone here who is trying to bring in bad influences of an atheist community into Islam????"
Yes YOU - and those who are in agreement.
"he question here is what the Quran says and not the question of what intentions people have who argue against the wedding ritual. "
As I have shown . . . you have no concern with what the Quran says . . .as you make it up. Hence why the bogus "wedding ritual" herring.
All Muslims agree there is no set "wedding ritual" . . . other than formal declaration of marriage within society. . . that is the point.
"We need to find proof in the Quran that the as-we-know it marriage is the ONLY marriage that is condoned by Allah. "
Already given - but you have chosen to overlook it.
"So far I have not found any proof, instead I have found the description of what the "bond" between a man and woman is all about.
"Dishonest - Ihave quoted you the verses . . . why don't you go back and see how you dismissed them.
= = = =
"I am not even going to argue with you anymore. You are clearly set on believing that we are all followers of Edip Yuksel and not the Quran. "
A get out close. That is simply your erroneous opinion. Else no words of mine imply this. . .
"I have failed to make you see that there is a difference between rules of marriage and the meaning of marriage."
Wrong - you have confused yourself - probably on purpose. . . rules are what you follow - and a must . . . .hence look at the hocus pocus above. . .
This is why you denied Quran prescribes marriage. When it so OBVIOUSLY does.
" If a couple lives in a society where the term "boyfriend/girlfriend" encompasses the Quranic criteria of the bond between man and woman, then their sexual relationship is HALAL."
There is no society that refers to boyfriend/girlfriend as marriage - the whole POINT of those terms is UN-MARRIED. . . and it is Western concept only.
And which Quran is allowing this? See you simply REFUSE to even look at the verses that perscribe marriage . . . in order to advance your BS.
"If the couple lives in a society that sees "boyfriend/girlfriend" as a temporary sexual relationship, then their relationship is not according to the Qurans definition, thus making their sexual relationship Haram"
In other words . . . ALL SOCIETIES ON EARTH.
-
Salam Pixelrow
Where do you come from? boyfriend/girlfriend are universally known as a relationship that is NOT formal .
A word is just a word.......Your cow is brown, my cow is black and white......but both of them are cows
http//welcometosweden.blogspot.no/2008/01/swedish-sambo.html
Meaningless . . . as Quran does NOT recognise non-Muslim authority. Nikah is a formal societal agreement.
O you who believe! obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority from among you; then if you quarrel about anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you believe in Allah and the last day; this is better and very good in the end.
http//www.quran-islam.org/main_topics/misinterpreted_verses/authority_(P1246).html
Utter tosh. Reading this line . . . where you say - TECHNICALLY SPEAKING
http//sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sambolagen
Wrong. On all counts. That is NOT marriage. And no one refers to their boyfriend/girlfriend as wife/husband. No one . . . as the terms are NOT synonymous
How do you know what my fellow countrymen call their spouses? The term boyfriend/girlfriend is quite shady in my country. The only way to really define it as to what it means is by looking at the persons age.
After 60 years of marriage my grandmother still refers to my grandfather as her "boyfriend". My six year old daughter refers to a boy in her school as her "boyfriend".....No hey cannot.
Well obviously they can because you don't understand that boyfriend/girlfriend can mean alot of things.
Absolute rubbish . . . you are just making it up. Islam/Quran DOES NOT recognise a relationship that is NOT formal. End of.
Please enlighten me. What makes the relationship formal according to the Quran. If you are able, please refer to the Quran.
"Is there anyone here promoting promiscuity???? Is there anyone here who says that sex should be "free"???? Is there anyone here who is trying to bring in bad influences of an atheist community into Islam????"
Yes YOU - and those who are in agreement.
Again, please enlighten me. When, where and how has anyone here promoted free sex and promiscuity?
All Muslims agree there is no set "wedding ritual" . . . other than formal declaration of marriage within society. . . that is the point.
I am starting to be a little concerned about you. Have you ever been to a muslim wedding? Do you understand that Islamic ceremonies differ immensly between the different sects. I think if you would ever attend a wedding in for example Iran you would come to understand that there are rituals....And by you being surprised that I got married in the mosque and you never heard of that before is clear evidence that you have little insight in your own religion and the diversity of it.
"We need to find proof in the Quran that the as-we-know it marriage is the ONLY marriage that is condoned by Allah. "
Already given - but you have chosen to overlook it.So give it to me again. What verses have I overlooked? Where do you find evidence that the common muslim wedding ceremony is written in the Quran.
"So far I have not found any proof, instead I have found the description of what the "bond" between a man and woman is all about.
"Dishonest - Ihave quoted you the verses . . . why don't you go back and see how you dismissed them.
Please quote again, I cannot find where you show evidence that the common muslim wedding ceremony is the only one approved by Allah.
"I am not even going to argue with you anymore. You are clearly set on believing that we are all followers of Edip Yuksel and not the Quran. "
A get out close. That is simply your erroneous opinion. Else no words of mine imply this. . .
I don't even understand what you mean....
"I have failed to make you see that there is a difference between rules of marriage and the meaning of marriage."
Wrong - you have confused yourself - probably on purpose. . . rules are what you follow - and a must . . . .hence look at the hocus pocus above. . .
This is why you denied Quran prescribes marriage. When it so OBVIOUSLY does.
So what is the meaning of marriage? Again, some Quranic references would be nice.
" If a couple lives in a society where the term "boyfriend/girlfriend" encompasses the Quranic criteria of the bond between man and woman, then their sexual relationship is HALAL."
There is no society that refers to boyfriend/girlfriend as marriage - the whole POINT of those terms is UN-MARRIED. . . and it is Western concept only.
And which Quran is allowing this? See you simply REFUSE to even look at the verses that perscribe marriage . . . in order to advance your BS.
I love my girlfriend. I have solemnly pledged to her, our family and Allah that I will provide for her, I will protect her and I will be loyal to her. She is allowed to be my wife according to the Quranic rules (not my close relative, she is of age etc etc) and I have offered a dowry she finds suitable. I have also seen to it that the law recognises my pledge to her as a valid pledge.
Am I married to her?
"If the couple lives in a society that sees "boyfriend/girlfriend" as a temporary sexual relationship, then their relationship is not according to the Qurans definition, thus making their sexual relationship Haram"
In other words . . . ALL SOCIETIES ON EARTH.
Are you sure? ALL societies on earth? Pretty bold statement
I find you interesting. I have always been amazed by people who has a dogmatic opinion about something they know nothing about. I am not talking about your religious belief, that would be disrespectful. I am talking about that you think the Quran alone muslims ( yuck....hate using that term) are complete idiots eventhough you know nothing about them.
You better be careful though. One day some smart QA cookie (obviously not me) will plant a seed of doubt in your mind and before you know it you will see Islam in a totally different way.