020.130
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Peace naxus,
I have come to a similar conclusion as Hafeez Kazi
Verse 20130 is addressed to the prophet and not to the followersLike Hafeez Kazi pointed out, a similar command is in 1778-79.
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2704Basically, the Quran has many commands. Most of these commands are directed to all believers. However, some commands are specific for Muhammad. As I understand it, there is no extra-quranic communication between Muhammad and God. Thus, commands specific for Muhammad would be imbedded in the Quran. (ex 3350, "...any believing woman who dedicates her soul to the Prophet if the Prophet wishes to wed her;- this only for thee, and not for the Believers (at large)"
Notice the word "thee". "Thee" is a form of teh word "you", but is the singular form. Ex "You are to pray five times a day" would be a command for all people. "Thou are to pray five times a day" would be a command specific to one person.
Notice the repeated use of the singular forms of "you" (thou and thee) in the verses preceding 1779
YA
73 - And their purpose was to tempt thee away from that which We had revealed unto thee, to substitute in our name something quite different; (in that case), behold! they would certainly have made thee (their) friend!
74 -And had We not given thee strength, thou wouldst nearly have inclined to them a little.
75 - In that case We should have made thee taste an equal portion (of punishment) in this life, and an equal portion in death and moreover thou wouldst have found none to help thee against Us!
76 - Their purpose was to scare thee off the land, in order to expel thee; but in that case they would not have stayed (therein) after thee, except for a little while.
77 - (This was Our) way with the messengers We sent before thee thou wilt find no change in Our ways.
78 - Establish regular prayers - at the sun's decline till the darkness of the night, and the morning prayer and reading for the prayer and reading in the morning carry their testimony.
79 - And pray in the small watches of the morning (it would be) an additional prayer (or spiritual profit) for thee soon will thy Lord raise thee to a Station of Praise and Glory!Did this make sense Naxus?
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Peace be upon you all,
To those who seperate the commands amongst mankind, what was "muhammad" suppossed to understand by this verse?
I feel we are escaping the responsibility by saying this verse is not for all of us.
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Peace be upon you,
Yes, but "muhammad" was a "man like us", so why wouldn't we be able to figure it out?
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Yes, but "muhammad" was a "man like us", so why wouldn't we be able to figure it out?
Indeed, Muhammad was a man like us. But his knowledge was different from ours. For example, the Quran describes the embryological development of man in some detail (2312-14). An embryologist, who is a "man like us" would understand those verses. However, a lay man, who is still a "man like us" will not understand. Just because Muhammad was a man like us, doesn't mean we are capable of understanding everything he did. And there are some things we can understand that Muhammad could not.
-Ams
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Peace be upon you,
Yes, but the God tells us to seek increase in knowledge, so if we do so, we will understand the embryonic process. All of us have the capabilities of understanding. The God did not order a man 1400 years ago to recite a verse that was not meant for those it was recited to.
Thats like saying to a cat "go bark". What would be the purpose?
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Yes, but the God tells us to seek increase in knowledge, so if we do so, we will understand the embryonic process.
Yes, this is a good point. But, no matter how much a 7th century person (ex Muhammad) wanted to increase his knowledge, he could not understand the embryological process. Nor could he understand the mentioning of the sun and moon travelling in orbits (2133). For example, Tabari wrote about 2133, "is our duty to keep silent when we do not know". Similarly, it may not be possible for us to fully understand a verse that was directed solely to the prophet.
The God did not order a man 1400 years ago to recite a verse that was not meant for those it was recited to.
Muhammad has recited verses that were "not meant for those it was recited to". See 3350, "and any believing woman who dedicates her soul to the Prophet if the Prophet wishes to wed her;- this only for thee, and not for the Believers (at large)".
God ordered Muhammad to recite this verse and it was not meant for the believers at large. -
Peace AMS,
Muhammad has recited verses that were "not meant for those it was recited to". See 3350, "and any believing woman who dedicates her soul to the Prophet if the Prophet wishes to wed her;- this only for thee, and not for the Believers (at large)".
God ordered Muhammad to recite this verse and it was not meant for the believers at large.It was not meant for the prophet alone either. The verse is also addressed to believing women at the time. The prophet's license to marry more than one, which was later limited to the ones he already married, although is a domestic matter, must have a significant purpose. Perhaps his wives were the scribes talked about in 8015. As for glorifying The God in 20130, it is not a license specifically limited to the prophet. Shouldn't we all glorify The God?
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Ayman,
I too am still a bit skeptical regarding the terms "thee", "thy", and etc. being exclusive to Muhammad. But, it seems like there is some significance to the Quran's use of both plural and singular forms of you.
Shouldn't we all glorify The God?
Yes, we should. However, 20130 does not indicate this. IMO, 20130 is for Muhammad only. Similary, 1779 is for Muhammad only.
For the believers at large, verses 3341-42 are relevant "O ye who believe! Celebrate the praises of Allah, and do this often; And glorify Him morning and evening."
God told Muhammad and all the believers to Glorify him. In 2130 and 1779 Muhammad happened to be specifically addressed. Also, it seems those verses addressed specifically to Muhammad are more specific in terms of times.
A similar example of when God ordered a command to the believers at large and ordered that same command seperately to Muhammad is seen in 16116 and 661
But say not - for any false thing that your tongues may put forth,- "This is lawful, and this is forbidden," so as to ascribe false things to Allah. For those who ascribe false things to Allah, will never prosper. 16116
O Prophet! Why holdest thou to be forbidden that which Allah has made lawful to thee? Thou seekest to please thy consorts. But Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. 661
16116 uses the plural form of "YOU" and thus is addressed to all believers. 661 uses the singular form, "THOU" and therefore this makes it specific to Muhammd. Also, 661 is obviously addressed to Muhammad alone, since the antecedent of the pronoun "thou" is clearly "O Prophet!"
Last note, 661 at least proves that there are some verses specific for Muhammad only, no?
-Ams
PS I just saw teh screen name "Ayman" on another forum a second ago. Are you with MSO? (I suppose it is a fairly common name though)
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Peace AMS,
I think that some confusion arises from understanding of the Arabic word "muhamad" as a meaningless proper name and not "one who thanks". The only time when something is addressed specifically to the prophet/"al-nabi", it is clearly addressed to the "nabi" as in 3350 and 661. You don't see "ya ayhuha al-nabi" (o prophet) in 20130 or in 1779.
PS I just saw teh screen name "Ayman" on another forum a second ago. Are you with MSO? (I suppose it is a fairly common name though)
I participate in several forums. However, this is probably not me.
Peace,
Ayman
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You don't see "ya ayhuha al-nabi" (o prophet) in 20130 or in 1779.
Hrm, thats true. This makes 20130/1779 very different from 3350/661. The word Nabi makes the distinction clearer.
The only time when something is addressed specifically to the prophet/"al-nabi", it is clearly addressed to the "nabi" as in 3350 and 661.
I am not so sure of this. For example, what about 1777, "(This was Our) way with the messengers We sent before thee thou wilt find no change in Our ways."This verse does not contain the word "nabi". Yet, the pronoun "thee" is clearly referring to Muhammad only.
Is this not an example of a verse where the pronoun "thee" is used exclusively for Muhammad, without the use of the word "nabi"?-Ams
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Peace AMS,
I am not so sure of this. For example, what about 1777, "(This was Our) way with the messengers We sent before thee thou wilt find no change in Our ways."
The context of 1777 actually starts in 1773. Although 1773-77 cite certain events, the lesson learned from those events applies to all those who deliver the message and not just the prophet. In a way, anyone delivering the message is facing some of the trials in 1773-77. For example, intimidation by the rejecters, losing friends because we deliver the message and reject Hadiths, and being strengthened by The God.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Ayman,
The antecedent to "thee" in 1777 cannot refer to other than the prophet. Even still, we can glean wisdom from verses 1773-79. However, simply being able to gain wisdom from a verse does not make it addressed to the believers at large. For example, in 661, the antecedent to "thee" is clearly Muhammad, as indicated by the usage of "nabi". Even still, I can gain wisdom from that verse (i.e., don't forbid what is allowed). However, it does not change the fact that 661 is addressed solely to the prophet. And the verse that addresses the believers at a large for this topic (i.e., don't forbid what is allowed) is found in 16116.
Furthermore, the antecedent to "thee" in 1777 cannot refer to just anyone, like me for example. 1777 says, "messengers We sent before thee". I am not a messenger, so I cannot be the antecedent for "thee".
Certain events in your life may parralel with Muhammad's life, like being persecuted. But, merely making the particular circumstances of 1773-77 parrallel your life doesn not make those verses addressed to you.
-Ams
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Peace be upon you,
All of the "thee, thou, I , we, me, he" is all trying to bring us to the inevitable conclusion, there is NONE but The God.
We are ONE at the hieghts, and seperated at the lower realm.
The vision of a triangle (pyramid) helps us keep this in mind.
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...is all trying to bring us to the inevitable conclusion, there is NONE but The God.
I'm not sure if this comment is relevant to 1777. Maybe I do not understand what you're saying. It seems you are suggesting...(1) The main purpose of the Quran is make us aware of The God.
(2) 1777 is a part of the Quran.
Therefore, the purpose of 1777 is to make us aware of The God.The problem is that you can insert any verse for (2). Is that your point?
We are ONE at the hieghts, and seperated at the lower realm.
The vision of a triangle (pyramid) helps us keep this in mind.Heh, you lost me again. What does this have to do with the antecedent to "thee" in 1777?
People sometimes say that by looking into details you miss the "big picture". But, in this case, it seems "the big picture" is obscuring understanding the details.
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People sometimes say that by looking into details you miss the "big picture". But, in this case, it seems "the big picture" is obscuring understanding the details.
As'Salaam Alaikum,
I'm not sure I get the point of this line of discussion. As I understand, Allah speaks to humanity (because the Qur'an was revealed as a guide for all humans, though some will refuse to follow it's guidance) through Muhammad so that he may serve as a guide to us, or Allah speaks directly to Muhammad, so that he may serve as a better example to us, through his personal practice. It has been clearly pointed out that there are instances of both forms of communication in the Qur'an, times where Allah speaks to Muhammad, as well as times when Allah speaks through Muhammad, and it is my understanding that at all times the message relates to humanity as a whole, because that is who the Qur'an is being revealed for.
The fine details and the big picture... are One and the same. How do we look at one without seeing the other?
Too much attention either way is the problem, not what has been stated. That is why balance is so important and heart perception is so much more reliable than intellect.Iyyka naAAbudu wa-iyyka nastaAAeen(u)
That's the Thee, You, Hu, He that... we... need to focus our attention on.
Ma'Salaam,
Olusanya -
Peace be upon you,
I am also in agreement that the God speaks to "muhammad" and through "Muhammad", but that ANY of us can be "muhammad" (appreciative one).
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if i recall well i saw in my dic. few years ago that anaalayli wa atrafanahari is an idiom meaning "always"....
"before sunrise and before sunset" might be the idiom as well, this particularly, because imo we have similar idioms throughout the book
bukratan wa aseela
bil gadati wal ashiyyi
bil ashiyyi wal ibkar
and similar
Usage of these expresions(context) imo clearly points that they are idioms denoting continuity and frequency rather than the particular times which they literarly mean (morning and evening)
please check it for yourself
best wishes, Zlatan