KHAYZURAN: Zoroastrianism and Islam in Relation to Ritual Prayer (Salat/Namaz)!
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Peace noshirk,
Yep, you are right about that. I think Zoroastrianism went wrong some time in history, I have been checking here in Iran for the Truth and I am still searching. Went to Persepolis among other places.
Also, reading OT in the Bible you can clearly see that Zoroastrianism affected the religion presented there. The Persian empires over the history is the reason for that. You can also see when the Persians started to lose their grip of the region around Jerusalem that then the talk about fires on the high hills started to be presented negatively, like burning sacrifices.
But I think that during King Cyrus and Darius and some successors to them, Persia had decent monotheistic rulers. However, that changed.
The Persian rulers even contributed for the reconstruction of the destroyed temple in Jerusalem. But I am sure it is only the first famous rulers that were any good according to what I have understood.
But I think Persia became blasphemous and lost God's favor. Old Persepolis is filled with polytheistic statues, but I think they were added in the latter part of construction.
God bless you
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Peace be upon everyone.
Here is an article that everyone may want to read regarding this subject
WAS RITUAL PRAYER A PRACTICE INVENTED LATER?
There exists quite a fantastic assertion amongst some that claim a Quran-centric approach that a ritual prayer was never prescribed by the Quran in any form whatsoever nor did the Prophet ever teach such a prayer.
Some others ascribe the ritual prayer as prayed today as a later invented practice with Persian Zoroastrian influence which did not take canon until 787 CE. (approximately 150 years after the death of the Prophet).
"The later Persian Imams built upon this tale and formulated the current Namaaz. They received strong support from the Persian Zoroastrian mother of Khalifa Haroon Rasheed, Khaizran (d. 789 CE). Haroon's Zoroastrian viziers, the Baramika, were only too happy to join hands with the royal mother, Khaizran. So, it was she in concert with others who "canonized" Namaaz according to the desires of the Criminal Imams in (787 CE). Her main philosopher was Imam Al-Khalil bin Ahmad Shikoh, the first ever compiler of Arabic to Persian dictionary, Al-'Ain"
The term 'salat' is henceforth variously rendered in a manner which completely departs from any reference to ritual prayer and new meanings are pinned to well established Arabic words and phrases of the Quran which deal with verses which are traditionally understood as referring to prayer.
AN ASSERTION WITHOUT WARRANT
Despite there being no Quranic support for such claims, there is also absolutely no historical proof that a mass invention of ritual prayer ever took place which introduced this practice into Muslim thought. The latter claim will remain the focus of the remainder of the article.
Such an assertion would require one to accept that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) never offered such a ritual prayer as part of God's ordained religion nor did the earliest Muslims to whom the Prophet preached the Quran. Furthermore, for one to accept the assertion, one would need to concede the possibility of a mass conspiracy which introduced this practice en masse from the late 8th century onwards which subsequently erased any record of the invention from all recorded history.
HISTORICAL PROOF
It is well appreciated by academic scholarship, that there exists a dearth of Muslim sources in the first centuries of Islam. To make use of later Muslim sources to challenge the assertion above would easily be dismissible on the grounds that the late Muslim sources only reflected the later change.
However, what is less well known and seldom appreciated is the existence of relevant earlier Non-Muslim sources which exist within decades of the end of the Prophet's ministry which would strongly refute any assertions of a late invented practice. These Non-Muslim sources are much earlier than the Muslim sources and were not always complimentary to the conquering Arabs who were oft seen as aggressors, oppressors, marred with vice and referred to as 'Saracens'.
In fact, the criticism against 'Muhammad's' conquerors at times was so intense in some early writings within Non-Muslim sources, that there would be no perceivable reason or interest for them to have attributed any Godly ritual to their aggressors whom they called the 'Saracens' (the Arab Muslims).
However, despite such a vitriolic portrayal of the conquering Muslims, an early polemic Christian source in the form of a Coptic homily written within approximately a decade of the Prophet's death (640s CE) whilst strongly remaining critical of both the Jews and the 'Saracens' (Arab Muslims), confirms that they both fasted and prayed. This is despite the fact that the homily deemed other acts of the Saracens as 'ungodly'. This source is much earlier than the Muslim sources and the unfounded assertions which place the 'alleged' invented practice of prayer as canonised around 787 CE.
The date of the Non-Muslim source (c. 640s CE) is within the time period after the Prophet's death where arguably many of the Prophet's closest contemporaries would still have been alive.
"As for us, my loved ones, let us fast and pray without cease, and observe the commandments of the Lord so that the blessing of all our Fathers who have pleased Him may come down upon us. Let us not fast like the God-killing Jews, nor fast like the Saracens who are oppressors, who give themselves up to prostitution, massacre and lead into captivity the sons of men, saying "We both fast and pray."
Given that both fasting and praying was a revered act of worship for the Christians, there would have been no credible interest to invent such a claim on behalf of the 'Saracens' if it was not in fact an assertion made by the earliest Muslims and a practice they engaged in.
FINAL THOUGHTS
There is clear evidence in the earliest Non-Muslim sources within approximately a decade of the Prophetic ministry which confirms that the earliest Muslims both prayed and fasted. There would be absolutely no perceivable interest for aggressed Christians to invent such Godly rituals and attribute them to the 'Saracens' (Arab Muslims) who they saw as oppressors.
There is absolutely no credible academic warrant or historical proof for the belief that ritual prayer was invented by later generations of Muslims in the late 8th century.
Furthermore, given the strong controversy amongst the earliest Muslims on many political and theological matters which has even given rise to much sectarian bloodshed, the requirement to fast and pray has always remained a bedrock belief amongst all practicing Muslims.
REFERENCES
AHMED, SHABBIR, Islam The True History and False Beliefs, The Imamist Conspiracy of Namaaz, Page 146
Highlights marked in bold black are my own insertions. They have no bearing on the original text other than they emphasise relevance to the topic at hand. These are merely illustrations and have solely been utilised for educational and explanatory purposes.
With a view not to misrepresent Dr. Shabbir Ahmed's view on ritual prayers in any way whatsoever and who is not the primary focus of this article, please see his views in his own words in the link provided here or in the PDF provided here.
Whilst mainly carrying a negative nuance, the meaning of the term 'Saracens' has changed over a period of time. However, in the context of 7-8th century, it most likely referred to the new Muslims of Arabia. An 8th century polemical work by St. John Damascene, a Syrian monk and priest (born 600's CE) is known to criticise the 'Saracens' as following a false Prophet named Muhammad.
"...They are also called Saracens, which is derived from the destitute of Sara, because of what Agar said to the angel ?Sara hath sent me away destitute.? These used to be idolaters and worshiped the morning star and Aphrodite, whom in their own language they called Khab?r, which means great. And so down to the time of Heraclius they were very great idolaters. From that time to the present a false prophet named Mohammed has appeared in their midst. This man, after having chanced upon the Old and New Testaments and likewise, it seems, having conversed with an Arian monk, devised his own heresy..."
DAMASCENE. ST. JOHN, Derived from a Translation by Rev. G.N. Warwick of the The Patristic Society, The Fount of Knowledge, An Exact Exposition of the Orthodox Faith, Page 40.
Highlights marked in bold black are my own insertions. They have no bearing on the original text other than they emphasise relevance to the topic at hand. These are merely illustrations and have solely been utilised for educational and explanatory purposes.
HOYLAND. R. G, Seeing Islam As Others Saw It A Survey and Evaluation of Christian, Jewish and Zoroastrian Writings on Early Islam (Studies in Late Antiquity and Early Islam), Homily on the Child Saints of Babylon (640s)
Highlights marked in red are my own insertions. They have no bearing on the original text other than they emphasise relevance to the topic at hand. These are merely illustrations and have solely been utilised for educational and explanatory purposes.
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Thanks @Scribbler for another articles, if you have more knowledge, do not hesitate to share to us )
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Peace be upon everyone.
"As for us, my loved ones, let us fast and pray without cease, and observe the commandments of the Lord so that the blessing of all our Fathers who have pleased Him may come down upon us. Let us not fast like the God-killing Jews, nor fast like the Saracens who are oppressors, who give themselves up to prostitution, massacre and lead into captivity the sons of men, saying "We both fast and pray."
Peace Scribbler,
The above texte does not mention the ritual it just mention "praying"!
The Quran also mention "praying".Peace
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The 5 salat can be traced back to the Jewish tradition.
http//www.alsadiqin.org/en/index.php?title=Prayer_PositionsThere are some things, not given step by step detailed that are still part of the religion. Salat and zakat are not given step by step, but still, as my current belief stands, they're still part of the religion.
The same issue is with the previous scriptures, focusing on the Torah, there is no real mention of an after life or heaven or hell.... and some Jewish sects deny such existence of a hell even today. Some say these beliefs were Incorporated into Judaism after the Babylonian Exile (because at that time, Zoroasternism was one of the major religion... which of course had the belief of a heaven and hell)...
Yet, eventhough such beliefs were not detailed in the Torah, Both the NT and the Quran both verify that there is a hell and a heaven.I personally now accept the Salat mathod brought forth by Rashad Khalifa, with minor differences in what is said.
http//masjidtucson.org/submission/practices/salat/index.html -
Thanks @Scribbler for another articles, if you have more knowledge, do not hesitate to share to us )
You're welcome.
Peace Scribbler,
The above texte does not mention the ritual it just mention "praying"!
The Quran also mention "praying".Peace
Peace be with you, herbman.
The article is basically a refutation to the very first post of this thread.
And please note, the writer of that article is a Quran-aloner, and NOT a Hadithist trying to save Bukhari, Muslim etc.
Yes, all the hadith writers were Persians, and their ahadith have undoubtedly caused a great amount of damage to the true 'essence' of the salat/prayer which the Quran tells us to establish. Instead of allowing flexibility, people have made their salat merely a set of physical exercise, and mundane as they repeat the same words every time, leaving it's spiritual aspects aside. They mention the Prophet and his family alongside with God, and so on.
But the purpose of the article is to prove that, maybe they (the Persian fabricators) have succeeded to inject many viruses into the muslim world and have destroyed the true essence of prayer, but the 'prayer', i.e. salat, itself was into existence and was not invented later. But after they came up with their fabrications, the salat has then changed into the current "Namaz" that we see around us today.
But if you don't want to take salat to mean as 'prayer', then that's up to you.
Peace.
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Peace.
As believers in the way of Allah, we are commanded to observe and perform salat (23; 2153) and zakah (purify) ((243; 2277). Salat has been the most mind boggling aspect in actualizing the deen of Allah. Believers differ in their understanding.
Traditional Islam followers, claiming that they have the detailed method of performing salat through hadith, used this as a weapon to attack the believers. To them, without the hadith, how could the Quran Alone believers perform their salat. The central focus of their salat, based on their argument, is basically the ritual aspect.
Due to this situation, believers have always been captivated to search for the methods from the Quran, how to do it right. Thus, they lost focus on the purpose and spirit of the salat. IMHO it is more practical to do the right things first, followed by doing it right.
As believers we have to actualize the regular bonding/connecting/relating to the remembrance of Allah. In the process we read the Quran, we recite, we purify, we give, we ask, we clean, we refresh, we clear, we humble, we comfort, we seek mercy and help, we glorify, we repent, we uphold, we set the way, we congregate, we help others, we invite, we hold, we obey, we establish, among the many facets, a never ending routine as our commitment and duty to Allah.
At the end of salat, we say All praises to Allah, Lord of the universe.
From there we live our daily life in seeking the God's bounties, perform good deeds and we strive in His path with the name and with the remembrance of Allah.
A Book was revealed to you, so let there be no anxiety in your heart because of it. You are to warn with it--and a reminder for the mumeens. (72)
Follow what is revealed to you from your Lord, and do not follow other masters beside Him. Little you recollect. (73)
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Salaam
it looks like a joke but since the beginning of islam, there was muslims who didn't practice the 5 daily ritual of putting face on floor towards the cubic stone in the desert while showing butt to Allah.
They are called Muslims who don't practice islam. They seems also to be a majority.
But they are Muslims who believe in Allah and in his words.So sayings "Muslims have always practiced the stupid body Salat" is a lie. An obvious lie.
Since the begginng, Muslims have always praticed the spiritual conexion to Allah.We know also that Allah sent many messengers to many communities.
It seems strange that other communities have not the "body" salat as practiced by "community" of Muhammad.Peace
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Peace,
Spiritual connection, well you can do that with bodily movement. I meditate to attain mine, but I use my body to show glorification to God too. I feel God's spirit is an energy in the Universe and certain concentrated body movement can enhance that feeling. Far stretched out hands in focused sessions seems to feel better for me.
Why do you think people perform yoga?
In the past the cubic stone was not a cube either. Much has changed.
The other communities used to have body salat, but they have abandoned the practice. You can see much evidence of submission with the body in the Bible, not always in the exact manner as in the Muslim practice, but like kneeling, crossing hands etc. Although, some Christians still kneel down and cross hands and offer a prayer. And as far as I know Jews still prostrate to some extent.
I would be careful calling things stupid in terms of proper conduct.
But in all criticism I must say you are right that meaningless body movement without any attempt at deeper spiritual connection is wrong. But well-intended glorification and praise of God in a formal manner is okay, why not?
In the end, prayers not followed by good deeds is like living on words alone. It means righteous deeds are very important.
God bless you
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Peace Scribbler,
Well, I do dislike if the building has turned into a symbol for Shaytaan. But if it is God's will that I prostrate in a certain direction then I do it. It is still the intention that counts. I do not submit to the building but God.
It is mainly noshirk who has a problem with this. I was just telling him the old mosque in Mecca was not always a cubic house covered with black fabric with a suspicious pattern on it.
So your questions are more rightly aimed at noshirk and not me.
God bless you
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Peace
"The Qibla is Ka'bah".This is only tradition from hadith.The Quran only mention Masjidil Haram is a Qiblat, but I still confused is MasjidilHaram is Salat Qibla or not? but I'm face that place during my place.
But it's not too important, whatever your Qibla is west east.The more important is our faith (2177).
Yeah, the cubic stone is one of the legacy from Abraham, and now was sacralized by traditional Muslim, as their vocal point during salat or hajj.
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Peace.
IMHO, your calling to Allah (salat) for the remembrance of Him (lidhikri) (2014), if done alone, is a private communication. It is between you and Allah. In terms of technique or bodily movement, when you call Him, to recite the ayats of Allah to make clear for you, and purify, by seeking His guidance, reach out for help from Him (245), by humbling to Him (232), is naturally yours.
When we do the calling to Allah in groups on the day of congregation, probably there are certain rules to be observed. The reason is to create some kind of harmony, in terms of the tone of your voice, the arrangement and the direction set.
Of course, you got to be clean and with mind clear to actualize salat. And only the name of Allah or any of His beautiful names to be called.