Knowledge vs. Wisdom
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Peace be upon you Doctor,
I would apply the word "ILM" throughout my discussion, for there is no word equivalent to this life force, from allah.
When you say Life Force, are you referring to the same life force as understood by the words "Ra, Kundalini, and Chi" from other traditions? This Life Force is called "ruh" in this reading.
But lets put that aside for now, I don't want to deviate.
Please tell me how wisdom fits into this picture according to your understanding.
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Peace be upon you Doctor,
Please tell me how wisdom fits into this picture according to your understanding.May Allah Bless!
ILM stems from the Wisdom. Wisdom is the ultimate "truth" from Him that makes our innerself sense the terrible deficiencies of the world clear and vivid, fit for out right rejection as ways of life. This leads to ILM, the Straight Path with the Wisdom illuminating it as The Light of Allah, His Hikmath. The Light of Allah is Wisdom, the Hikmath. The WAY seen clearly in the Light of Allah is ILM, the straight path. Wisdom precedes; ILM follows! Wisdom directs; ILM proceeds!
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Peace be upon you Doctor,
Please translate "Ilm" as best as you can so that the discussion can become more clear.
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May Allah Guide!
ILM is exclusive WAY, the Straight Path from Allah direct, for those who seek it. ILM is untainted with the worldly knowledge, so that we are safe from the miseries that every one is experiencing using the knowledge he gained from sources around him. The ILM "Be!", be the Way for us to get our Wishes accomplished. "Be!" be the Way of life HE Bestows upon a believer who believes HIS Wishes as his own Wishes, when endowed upon hisself by Allah.
For example 'the dreams!' Every one wants 'the dream come true'. Since they do not have the ILM 'Be!', to make their wishes come alive then and there, they convert it into their lives' 'dream projects'. We shall all know that a wish when "Created by Allah" in us, we are in need of it as early as possible with a wish 'Let my need Be right there!', the very moment Allah creates it in our hearts. Allah has the command, the ILM "Be!" with HIM, so that we realized our wishes. If we are believers in Allah, the 'wish-come-true-path' lies in our Belief 'be'ing close with that command, forever.
The Wish that 'wish come true' at the very moment a wish descends in our hearts by the grace of almighty, then it shall 'be' there without dealy at the winking of an eye, if we are believers in His Command 'Be!'
Unless we are Graced with His Hikmath, the Wisdom - we can never become believers in the " Be!" of the Almighty. Thus the wisdom or hikmath is the 'BE'LIEF. And what follows in closeness with the 'be'lief, is the ILM, the Stright Way.
ILM is only from Allah to those who have Hikmath to believe the Truth. So we seek only from HIM to increase our ILM, for ILM, the straight path is never outside of His direction. " O Lord Increase me in my staright Path" and He shows the path to the believers in wisdom.
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Peace be upon you Doctor,
It is hard for me to follow your discussion, it is not coming across in a clear manner. It seems to me based on the following statement that your understanding consists of us waiting for something to come that we have no control over.
Unless we are Graced with His Hikmath, the Wisdom - we can never become believers in the " Be!" of the Almighty
This sounds like the Christian "savior" philosophy. The Christians also say that man can do all kinds of good deeds, but that is not enough, man must still wait for the God's grace before he can be "saved".
I disagree with that. My understanding is that man must WORK towards a righteous life, and that Wisdom comes naturally as a cause and effect situation, relative to how much spiritual work you achieve.
I see that you are trying seperate knowledge (Ilm) into two seperate categories, that which is on the path, and that which is off the path, but I disagree, becaue that wich is off the path is not knowledge, although people THINK they know, they really don't. For example, you might be in a dark room and hear your mother talking to you, the foolish man would say they KNOW that is thier mother, but that is not really knowledge because you have not SEEN your mother. When the lights come on, you see that it was a cd recording of your mother playing. Knowledge comes with SEEING, which is why the symbol of the EYE was one of the oldest symbolisms relating to the God, the ALL SEEING.
So in conclusion, when the God tells us to seek increase in knowledge, it is not some word that cannot be translated, it is TRUE KNOWING, not that which is "off that path" or "hearsay" like many of the so called "bukhari" hadiths.
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Peace be upon you Doctor,
It is hard for me to follow your discussion, it is not coming across in a clear manner. It seems to me based on the following statement that your understanding consists of us waiting for something to come that we have no control over.Yes, I admit it is hard to follow in the beginning. ILM is the 'feeling of truth from Allah' that has no equivalent human expression. Allah will give me His Clear Expression on HIS ILM soon.
Unless we are Graced with His Hikmath, the Wisdom -we can never become believers in the " Be!" of the Almighty
This sounds like the Christian "savior" philosophy. The Christians also say that man can do all kinds of good deeds, but that is not enough, man must still wait for the God's grace before he can be "saved".
I disagree with that. My understanding is that man must WORK towards a righteous life, and that Wisdom comes naturally as a cause and effect situation, relative to how much spiritual work you achieve.
This part of bible is confirmed to be true for quran confirms the earlier truths. Allah says "All good comes from Him; all bad comes from what your own hands earn. Do good; but fear Allah". The reason is your knowledge is insufficient to do good. Allah warns us not to be proud that we have been doing good, for "They mixed a righteous action with another that was bad 9102 ". In all our endeavours, in the end, as a result, "we earn mixture of good and bad, bad element being more than the good; so when you are exhausted of your knowledge, strive in the path of Allah's ILM, the true knowledge; and totally submit yourself to the true knowledge (945,6,7)".
Please elaborate on these two words Work , Spritual work that you have mentioned. The cause and effect that you say Is it the experimentation process, is what you mean? Test and result and then working really hard towards correction ; and re-test and result and so on...?
So in conclusion, when the God tells us to seek increase in knowledge, it is not some word that cannot be translated, it is TRUE KNOWING, not that which is "off that path" or "hearsay" like many of the so called "bukhari" hadiths.
You translate allah's knowledge as "true knowing" thereby admitting that what you have now with you as knowledge, or striving for more and more of the same is not true. Yes. It is a 'sign' from allah to doubt our ways. Only with Him is the Path free from doubt.
God's knowledge is True Knowledge (ILM). Believing only in this true knowledge is Wisdom (Hikamth). May we say what allah has with Him for us is final or the only True Knowledge unlike that of human's which are subjected to constant changes that they ever remain as hypotheses? In other words, can we say the human knowledge is always scarce, doubtful and never ever be absolute, until the world ends?
A verse to point that Human knowledge is obsolete and it was given as a test for us whether we stick to the same or opt for Allah's knowledge
"Or, do they say He has forged it. Say Then bring ten forged chapters like it and call upon whom you can besides Allah, if you are truthful. But if they do not answer you, then know that it is revealed by the knowledge of Allah and that there is no god but He; will you then submit?"Based on the above, The knowledge of Allah, can you now say what does " O My Lord increase me in knowledge! " mean? Do we see in the ayat a clear indication what man has as knowledge is deficient, false and what Allah has for us is the true knowledege?
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I see that you are trying seperate knowledge (Ilm) into two seperate categories, that which is on the path, and that which is off the path, but I disagree, becaue that wich is off the path is not knowledge,
What are the effects when you go off the path and when you go on the path? When you go off the path there is trial and error. That is experimentation/scientific process. Am I right? If we are on the path, there is no imperfection; no trail and error; no experimentaion; only blissful peace. If off the path is no knowledge as you strongly admit, then do you denounce the experimental, scientific orientd half-hearted knowledge?
although people THINK they know, they really don't. For example, you might be in a dark room and hear your mother talking to you, the foolish man would say they KNOW that is thier mother, but that is not really knowledge because you have not SEEN your mother. When the lights come on, you see that it was a cd recording of your mother playing. Knowledge comes with SEEING, which is why the symbol of the EYE was one of the oldest symbolisms relating to the God, the ALL SEEING.
If we apply the context, cd voice of mother will not be in tune with it which is sufficient enough to understand that the mother was not there. Or a simple question to the mother will not be answered for the cd continues its speaking. Understanding without seeing is wisdom. The oldest symbolism becomes thus questionable.
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Peace be upon you Doctor,
Idolfree1
This sounds like the Christian "savior" philosophy. The Christians also say that man can do all kinds of good deeds, but that is not enough, man must still wait for the God's grace before he can be "saved".
I disagree with that. My understanding is that man must WORK towards a righteous life, and that Wisdom comes naturally as a cause and effect situation, relative to how much spiritual work you achieve.Doctor
This part of bible is confirmed to be true for quran confirms the earlier truths. Allah says "All good comes from Him; all bad comes from what your own hands earn. Do good; but fear Allah".Yes, all good comes from the God, but the God does not play favoritism, you must EARN that "good", not wait around for the day where you might recieve "grace". So NO, that is NOT confirmed by the God's reading. The God says He does not change the condition of a people UNTIL they change what is in thier MINDS (1311).
The reason is your knowledge is insufficient to do good
You mean to say that if we "learn" that eating fruits will increase certain vitamins in our system and we will live healthier lives because of it, that it is wrong to follow such worldy knowledge? Or that learning how to farm so that we can help others farm and feed themselves is not GOOD?
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Allah warns us not to be proud that we have been doing good, for "They mixed a righteous action with another that was bad 9102 ".Please read the contecxt of 9102
In all our endeavours, in the end, as a result, "we earn mixture of good and bad, bad element being more than the good; so when you are exhausted of your knowledge, strive in the path of Allah's ILM, the true knowledge; and totally submit yourself to the true knowledge (945,6,7)".
We should always work with the wisdom from the God, but that must be extended into the worldy life. The WISDOM allows us to use the knowledge properly, as oppossed to the THINKING of the ego, which does not think HOLISTICALLY (ONENESS), so cannot use knowledge properly.
Please elaborate on these two words Work , Spritual work that you have mentioned. The cause and effect that you say Is it the experimentation process, is what you mean? Test and result and then working really hard towards correction ; and re-test and result and so on...?
Yes, the spiritual work is given by example here.
(676-7 So when the night darkened on him, he saw a star/planet, he said "That (is) my lord." So when it set/darkened, he said "I do not like the setting/disappearing." So when he saw the moon, rising/emerging, he said "That (is) my lord, so when it set/darkened, he said "If my lord does not guide me, I will be from the nation the misguided."So when he saw the sun rising/emerging, he said "That (is) my lord, that (is) bigger." So when it set, he said "You (my) nation, that I am innocent/renouncing from what you share/make partners (with God)."
Spiritual work is the process of removing all idols and coming to know true ONENESS and operating from that HIGH LEVEL, without forgetting the seperated lower part of our creation which we are to control with the higher faculties of ONENESS.
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So in conclusion, when the God tells us to seek increase in knowledge, it is not some word that cannot be translated, it is TRUE KNOWING, not that which is "off that path" or "hearsay" like many of the so called "bukhari" hadiths.You translate allah's knowledge as "true knowing" thereby admitting that what you have now with you as knowledge, or striving for more and more of the same is not true.
No, I only mention "true knowing" in order to seperate that which is SEEN/EXPERIENCED apart from that which is only HEARD/THOUGHT ABOUT (Thinking process). This is not to say the thinking process is to be rejected, as I think you are saying in many of the threads here, just that it is not to be trusted as the absolute truth.
Yes. It is a 'sign' from allah to doubt our ways. Only with Him is the Path free from doubt.
When you say that it is a sign from the God to doubt our ways, it gives me the impression that you think you are speaking to ignorant people who should be doubting thier ways because they are wrong, because if our ways were right, why should we doubt them?
(2147) The truth (is) from your Lord, so do not be from the doubting.
Lets keep our discussion focused on what is TRUE or False, doubting will be a natural result of falsehood.
God's knowledge is True Knowledge (ILM). Believing only in this true knowledge is Wisdom (Hikamth).
I would say it this way, The God's knowledge is true knowledge, and gaining the understanding of how to properly apply the God's true knowledge in one's life is Wisdom.That is why this reading(quran) is said to contain the wisdom, because it is full of exampples on how to APPLY the God's knowledge, that is as long as you don't take the stories as literal miraculous events that cant be duplicated.
May we say what allah has with Him for us is final or the only True Knowledge unlike that of human's which are subjected to constant changes that they ever remain as hypotheses?
Yes, I agree.
In other words, can we say the human knowledge is always scarce, doubtful and never ever be absolute, until the world ends?
No, rather human THINKING "CAN BE" doubtful, but it CAN also end up being right. I have used THINKING as oppossed to KNOWLEGDE because KNOWLEDGE is derived from KNOWING, which cannot be wrong.
A verse to point that Human knowledge is obsolete and it was given as a test for us whether we stick to the same or opt for Allah's knowledge
"Or, do they say He has forged it. Say Then bring ten forged chapters like it and call upon whom you can besides Allah, if you are truthful. But if they do not answer you, then know that it is revealed by the knowledge of Allah and that there is no god but He; will you then submit?"Based on the above, The knowledge of Allah, can you now say what does " O My Lord increase me in knowledge! " mean? Do we see in the ayat a clear indication what man has as knowledge is deficient, false and what Allah has for us is the true knowledege?
Yes, I can see what the God means by "increase my knowledge" and I have held the same position since the beginning of this debate. We seek increase in KNOWING, not THINKING or HEARSAY, because we can BUILD on KNOWING, that is the solid foundation that does not crumble.
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Peace be upon you Doctor,
idolfree1 wrote
I see that you are trying seperate knowledge (Ilm) into two seperate categories, that which is on the path, and that which is off the path, but I disagree, becaue that wich is off the path is not knowledge,What are the effects when you go off the path and when you go on the path? When you go off the path there is trial and error. That is experimentation/scientific process. Am I right? If we are on the path, there is no imperfection; no trail and error; no experimentaion; only blissful peace. If off the path is no knowledge as you strongly admit, then do you denounce the experimental, scientific orientd half-hearted knowledge?
When we go off the path, we rely on "hearsay", when we are on the path we follow KNOWING. The God has made all things to work according to the same LAWS, so that we can observe and KNOW.
(226) That God does not (feel) shame that (He) gives a similitude, (of) any a mosquito (and) so what (is) above it, so but those who have faith, so they know that it (is) the truth from their Lord, and but those who disbelieved, so they say "What did God want/intend with that (as) an example/proverb?" He misguides with it many, and He guides with it many, and He does not misguide with it except the debauchers
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although people THINK they know, they really don't. For example, you might be in a dark room and hear your mother talking to you, the foolish man would say they KNOW that is thier mother, but that is not really knowledge because you have not SEEN your mother. When the lights come on, you see that it was a cd recording of your mother playing. Knowledge comes with SEEING, which is why the symbol of the EYE was one of the oldest symbolisms relating to the God, the ALL SEEING.Doctor
If we apply the context, cd voice of mother will not be in tune with it which is sufficient enough to understand that the mother was not there.Perhaps your CD player is old, they have very good technology these days. But I am sure you get the point, even if you cannot agree for the sake of the example.
Or a simple question to the mother will not be answered for the cd continues its speaking
Since you choose to try to pick apart at the example instead of looking for what is being said, my response will be that there is someone controlling the CD player, and has recorded many possible responses to questions. So now when the questioner questions, a response is given from the CD player. It is a shame I have to go to such lengths when the example should have been clear.
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Understanding without seeing is wisdomThen do you seek out the blind people of this world?
(650)...Say "Do the blind, and the seeing become equal/alike, so do you not think?"
The oldest symbolism becomes thus questionable.
With all due respect doctor, If one who rejects knowledge, and rejects the greeting of Peace, I would expect that the above symbolism would be questionable to that person.
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