How sex before Marriage is not haram (prohibited) according to the Quran
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Peace Emil, (frid)
Why I do not see Sambo-lagen as equal is because it is not legally the same. A married couple are bound by the rules of the law of marriage "?ktenskapsbalken" which adds certain requirements to the couple whereas Sambo-lagen means one can just go away at any time and you cannot require anything from this person.
I grew up with "sambos" everywhere around me, but I see this as a temporary condition if you consider marrying. I live with the old time vision though, with marriages lasting a lifetime, which too seldom happen these days with the newer generations.
A marriage adds more weight to the intention of spending the life together whereas a "sambo" relationship feels like "whatever". Many people are afraid of the commitment of marriage though. And lots of people have lost the belief in eternal love. Such moral decay, aye?
Many modernist people perhaps think the marriage is a relic / remainder from the old time church and that it is obsolete.
Swedish people generally have a tendency to feel it is taboo to discuss religion (from first hand experience). It is often deemed inappropriate (fult) to discuss God and religion.
In my family we were not allowed to discuss such things, it was against etiquette almost. It was "fult"
God bless you
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Peace Emil, (frid)
Why I do not see Sambo-lagen as equal is because it is not legally the same. A married couple are bound by the rules of the law of marriage "?ktenskapsbalken" which adds certain requirements to the couple whereas Sambo-lagen means one can just go away at any time and you cannot require anything from this person.
I grew up with "sambos" everywhere around me, but I see this as a temporary condition if you consider marrying. I live with the old time vision though, with marriages lasting a lifetime, which too seldom happen these days with the newer generations.
A marriage adds more weight to the intention of spending the life together whereas a "sambo" relationship feels like "whatever". Many people are afraid of the commitment of marriage though. And lots of people have lost the belief in eternal love. Such moral decay, aye?
Many modernist people perhaps think the marriage is a relic / remainder from the old time church and that it is obsolete.
Swedish people generally have a tendency to feel it is taboo to discuss religion (from first hand experience). It is often deemed inappropriate (fult) to discuss God and religion.
In my family we were not allowed to discuss such things, it was against etiquette almost. It was "fult" )
God bless you
Salam brother
I completely agree with you that religion is considered ugly in Sweden by most.
When it comes to sambo yes there is a difference between in the legal sense, one must make a will if it was to match matrimonial law and the mother has automatic custody of the children if not anything else is said.
But what about the intention of the couple? Is there any evidence that a couple who decides to live together will be stronger, have a higher moral value and a better chance to last if they get married? Yes or No depending on who you ask......
I cannot see that a married couple has a higher moral value or better intention than a non-married couple. Marriage doesnt protect you from adultery or divorce, does it? This is the point I was trying to get across to Pixelrow, that even if a couple is not legally married adultery is still haram. In a sambo relationship adultery is not acceptable, on this point marriage and sambo match.
Having a Swedish mindset I would argue a sambo relationship requires a higher morality and intention that a marriage. In a marriage you are legally bound to eachother whilst in a sambo relationship the only bond you have is the love for eachother. A sambo relationship requires you "stay on your toes" but in a marriage you can "relax".The typical muslim marriage in Sweden means nothing according to the law. At best they are sambos...... But they (the non-muslims) are not claiming the muslims are fornicators or living in sin. If they consider themselves married either by moral or religious values, then who is to say they (the muslims) are not married? The technicality of the law means nothing really.
You and I have a different opinion but we use words like "I think" and "I feel". This is evidence that when we discuss a topic like marriage and what it means to us as muslims we need to concentrate on the values rather than the text. If we were to discuss the value of the marriage as described in the Quran.........well then it would be a boring discussion because we would agree with eachother......We would for example agree that neither marriage or sambo in our country do not live up to the guides as per the Quran.
The Quran is our path to Allah and it is what is inside us that matters. We are to be good, kind, respectful, honest and fair. . Since people think and talk differently the law will always reflect that. We could never have the same exact law across every nation on earth.......but the foundation could be the same. In other words, The Quran is not a lawbook but a book the value of the law should be based on.
Therefore it is of outmost importance that when we have discusssions between different socities/generations/religious beliefs that we never fail to see if our values match.
ps Mashallah! Jag ?r mycket glad att h?ra att du har klarat upp saker och ting. Hoppas att det ?r detta du ville. Stay in touch handshake
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Peace Emil,
While we may differ on some questions I think we are not too far off from each other. And I agree that it is the intention that counts the most. It is better with a loving sambo relationship than a dry dead marriage.
With today's freer and more open community sambo relationships are viable "try'n'feel" before you marry, but I feel you should not get together on the basis of lust alone. It should be thought through in my opinion. And losing virginity may be a minus in some instances.
I think we must be more modest with our vulgarity than in today's society. The way the Western world works is not the optimal way. However, I doubt God feels good about the situation in traditional muslim countries either. You must find a balance between the two extremes. Humans tend to seek either extreme all the time, no matter topic.
Religion and religious rules should never be forced upon anyone, so countries like Iran are really not in God's favor either way. God does not like oppression and compulsion.
Anyway, I still think you should get married in Sweden even if being sambo is legal, at least after due thinking. I disagree that marrying changes much if you truly love each other. Also, marrying gives some extra feeling when you can call your woman wife.
Another preventer in Sweden and the rest of the world is this obsession that a marriage should cost so much money. It puts some people off. But this extravagant behavior is not appreciated by God I am sure. You could rather give the moeny to charity.
Marrying does not have to cost much at all. You can even write in a marriage contract special conditions you require such as how much the wife gets if you divorce.
Anyway, I will not think of you as a heretic for believing in sambo relationships like some other people
God bless you
ps. Kan skriva i pm senare
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I know about 'Sambo-lagen' in Sweden,
What is sambo-lagen?
Brother Earthdom told you about Indonesia, I completely concur with him since I grew up in Singapore wedged between Malaysia and Indonesia (Selamat pagi Earthdom). The malay community in S'pore is mostly muslim and the muslim kids in my neigbourhood had boyfriend/girlfriends with the blessings of their parents.
Selamat malam @Emil (this is night when I post this)
I don't think if you grew up in Singapore, You can considered as a traveler.So looks like you can speak Malay too.
Of course you can speak Malay to me as Malay language has similiarty to mine, but of course I will replied with english ) -
Peace Earthdom,
It is a law in Sweden giving some rights to couples who decide to live together without being formally married. Emil posted some link in an earlier post.
God bless you
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It is a law in Sweden giving some rights to couples who decide to live together without being formally married. Emil posted some link in an earlier post.
Sorry, I didn't realize it, if the links already posted by @Emil in previous pages.Btw thanks.
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I don't agree that legal marriage provides protection. If anything when there is a system in place, tendency is to abuse the system to one's advantage. My ex used the legal system to get his green card. Having marriage ceremonies/papers with witnesses don't provide protection. I can list many other examples besides marrying for green card and the list will be long.
God does not stipulate that there needs to be a ceremony, papers signed, needing witnesses unlike in divorce. An oath taken by a couple with only God as a witness is sufficient - granted that the oath is taken as a commitment to base the marriage on mutual respect and compassion. Would the oath be invalid just because it was not written down, registered in some court, or having human witnesses?
The question is what are the standards and terms of marriage defined by God.Now the question is what does God say about casual sex or one night stands or sex without having an oath (ex dating) or taking an oath just to have sex? My understanding is that this is not lawful but I acknowledge that I am influenced by extra quranic views as well.
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I don't agree that legal marriage provides protection. If anything when there is a system in place, tendency is to abuse the system to one's advantage. My ex used the legal system to get his green card. Having marriage ceremonies/papers with witnesses don't provide protection. I can list many other examples besides marrying for green card and the list will be long.
God does not stipulate that there needs to be a ceremony, papers signed, needing witnesses unlike in divorce. An oath taken by a couple with only God as a witness is sufficient - granted that the oath is taken as a commitment to base the marriage on mutual respect and compassion. Would the oath be invalid just because it was not written down, registered in some court, or having human witnesses?
The question is what are the standards and terms of marriage defined by God.Now the question is what does God say about casual sex or one night stands or sex without having an oath (ex dating) or taking an oath just to have sex? My understanding is that this is not lawful but I acknowledge that I am influenced by extra quranic views as well.
Salam Sister
I agree with you entirely. Are you sure though there are no witnesses needed? I must admit I have misunderstood/misinterpreted.....now when I check I cannot find any verse stating there is need for any witness.
So therefore I am asking you, you sure?
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Couple of years go did my research on marriage/divorce and did not find verse in koran stating that witnesses are needed with marriage. However when it comes to divorce, an oath with God and two just human witnesses are needed. Now, there are those who say that marriage is a contract and witnesses are needed when two parties enter a contract and thus, marriage need to be witnessed. But then again, this is a deduction based on viewing marriage as a contract.
in many arranged marraiges, basically marriage is a business transaction. But not per Koran though. How much gift a man gives his wife is not something that needs to be made public and recorded on paper. if the woman forgoes the gift, she doesn't have to publicize it. A lot of what we think, believe and practice are based on traditions which have then been attributed to God.
There are those who say that paper and witnesses provide protection. But from what and how? How can documents and witnesses make sure that the "contract" is honored? Can't force someone to love and care. A sociopath for example doesn't care who s/he hurts - papers and witnesses mean nothing. if anything, a sociopath will try to manipulate the system/people to get what s/he wants. What provides protection is when God conscience persons get married with the intention of wanting to lead an "Islamic" life so to speak - to love and care for each other. And God advices couples not to be selfish and work on resolving problems should they arise. In other words, take the oath seriously.
Anyhow, I am quite sure that there are no verses to be found in the Koran stating that witnesses/papers are needed for marriage. However, witnesses are needed for divorce.
If I am in the wrong, please do correct me and let me know. I sure would not want to go around saying something that is not true.
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Anyhow, I am quite sure that there are no verses to be found in the Koran stating that witnesses/papers are needed for marriage. However, witnesses are needed for divorce.
If I am in the wrong, please do correct me and let me know. I sure would not want to go around saying something that is not true.
If I am in the wrong, please do correct me and let me know. I sure would not want to go around saying something that is not true.
Salam Sister
I don't know why but for some reason I thought that witnesses were required.....Don't ask me where I got it from, obviously there was a short circuit somewhere in my brain.....Once you said "no witnesses" I checked it out and just like you I can not find any requirement but for divorce.
Signing a contract is good because
- It gives the relationship depth
- It shows the to-be spouses that they are serious about the relationship
- Without a contract there is no obligation to follow the divorce rules
All above has nothing to do with the Quran........It has to do with what we require, not Allah.
My way of saying I agree with you. We must understand the difference between Quranic and society rulings.
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Peace Emil, (frid)
Swedish people generally have a tendency to feel it is taboo to discuss religion (from first hand experience). It is often deemed inappropriate (fult) to discuss God and religion.
In my family we were not allowed to discuss such things, it was against etiquette almost. It was "fult" )
God bless youPeace Man of Faith,
What is the predominant religion in Sweden?
God Bless
peace
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Peace hawk99,
Atheism. Or if you need a religion then Christianity, but people are just skenheliga (hypocrites).
However, I was a bit mean. There are actually good Christians here, I knew a few.
People in Sweden are against religion because it has caused and is causing so much animosity in the world, and because it is not trendy to believe. People think it is primitive to believe in God. There is a social majority who affect the rest and people are afraid of being humiliated for trying religion.
On another level it may have to do with the fact that certain things are taboo to discuss in Sweden, such as politics, religion, someone's work and income. Swedes have an "interesting" mentality.
God bless you
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All above has nothing to do with the Quran........It has to do with what we require, not Allah.
My way of saying I agree with you. We must understand the difference between Quranic and society rulings.
Exactly my point! Personally, if I were to get married again, would get a lawyer first before taking any oath. Prenuptial agreement which includes following God's commands pertaining to marriage/divorce (although one would think this should be a no brainer but....) and then a legal marriage is the way for me if there is going to be a next time around. I have had some bad experiences and been through much. Now, having prenuptial agreement is not contradictory to the koran and nor is someone who simply takes a verbal oath with no witnesses.
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Peace hawk99,
Atheism. Or if you need a religion then Christianity, but people are just skenheliga (hypocrites). )
However, I was a bit mean. There are actually good Christians here, I knew a few.
People in Sweden are against religion because it has caused and is causing so much animosity in the world, and because it is not trendy to believe. People think it is primitive to believe in God. There is a social majority who affect the rest and people are afraid of being humiliated for trying religion.
On another level it may have to do with the fact that certain things are taboo to discuss in Sweden, such as politics, religion, someone's work and income. Swedes have an "interesting" mentality.
God bless you
Peace Man of Faith,
Yes they do have an interesting mentality according to you. One more question if you
don't mine, among the christians are the majority catholic or protestant.God Bless
peace
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Couple of years go did my research on marriage/divorce and did not find verse in koran stating that witnesses are needed with marriage. However when it comes to divorce, an oath with God and two just human witnesses are needed. Now, there are those who say that marriage is a contract and witnesses are needed when two parties enter a contract and thus, marriage need to be witnessed. But then again, this is a deduction based on viewing marriage as a contract.
The Quran only recommended that witnesses must be used in the case of
- debt (2282-283)
-orphans (46)
-criminal judge (415,1226,242-13)
-inheritance (5106-108
-re-married or divorced after waiting period (652)
I didn't find any single verse that said we need witnesses for starting nikah.
But according to my opinon, the function of witnesses in 652 is to make sure the couple remarried and divorce with peaceful manner.Signing a contract is good because
But it's not obligatory in Quran for signing contract in Nikah.But now we lived in modern era with law science and system already developed.
So in this modern era, if we want the legal means we must wrote signature on the paper.
- debt (2282-283)
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Peace hawk99,
Protestants.
God bless you
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Anyway, its funny to see people laugh at hadist that muhammad marry a 12 years old girl but on the other hand the person who laugh disaloow to marry a 12 years old girls who lost it virginity by a 15 years old boys, the moral is, is marriage is not allowed by some culture?. I think we need to define what is right and wrong, if not it would be a clash of civilization.
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The believers are... those who protect their sexual organs except from their spouses... Therefore, whosoever seeks more beyond that , then they are the transgressors." (235-6)
?Those who invoke not, with Allah, any other god, nor slay such life as God has made sacred, except for just cause, nor commit fornication; and any that does this (not only) meets punishment (but) the Penalty on the Day of Judgment will be doubled to him, and he will dwell therein in ignominy.?
(Al-Furqan, 2568-69).BOOM.
This thread could have ended here, on page two. It's still being referred to though, by a person in the "Muslims who follow Quran alone" facebook group (recommended!), as 'proof' that sex outside of marriage is allowed.Shaking my head at this, honestly. nope
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BOOM.
This thread could have ended here, on page two. It's still being referred to though, by a person in the "Muslims who follow Quran alone" facebook group (recommended!), as 'proof' that sex outside of marriage is allowed.Shaking my head at this, honestly. nope
It is not allowed even when one is all alone in the wash room's tub. But those who are still the reptillians won't understand this.