How can "salat" mean "learning connection/reading the Qur'an"
-
Salaam,
I feel it is undeniable that prayer is some kind of ritual, but I always respect what others believe, it is part of my religion.
I know I do not get far by reciting the Bible here, but it portrays people pray lots of times, by prostrating, but also kneeling or simply crying out in prayer. Even a case someone is pushing their head against a wall and pray.
The people of the book seems to have prayed dawns (and/or mornings), at noon, afternoon, dusk, and at night. Sounds pretty much like the traditional practice in Islam.
As far as Quran tells about prayers though, it seems only 2 or 3 prayers are mandatory, but that sounds a bit meager to me, to be honest. Could be God's mercy to those who have no time to formally pray more perhaps?
I think the amount of prayers is like charity, it shows your character and is not a set value.
The description of when Muhammad is going to lead prayers with the people is a sign that prayers are at least formal. And why does the Quran remind on which tone to use during prayer, it must mean you are at least supposed to talk to God.
The circumstantial evidence is there in the context, which shines of a prayer ritual, even though how much we want to deny it.
Despite this, I respect your opinion that there may exist no formal prayer. I am not responsible for you nor you for me.
God bless you
-
Peace,
Perhaps this has already been answered, if so I would appreciate a link to the thread, but how can we understand "salat" to mean reading/studying the Qur'an if the Qur'an itself says that people before the book, such as Abraham, Moses, and Jesus, observed "salat"? What was their "salat"?
I have just contemplated on this and a very important question came to mind...
If Salat is a ritual, then what did the previous generations recite during it?? Before Quran.
So Salat can't be recitation or reading... And at the same time a fundamental part of the traditional ritual did not exist!
I think I might be onto something... Allahu A3lam.
What did Abraham/Noah/Shuaib recite during his Salat? Or if it is just a reading, what did he read?
They were not given scripture.. What scripture did they have? Did they have any?
Is Salat a physical ritual but performed by glorifying Allah and making duaa whilst bowing and prostrating, without reciting Quran?
Or did the rules change when the Quran was revealed and Allah decreed for his worshippers to recite the final scripture during it?
Does our definition of Salat have to be consistent with the Salat of the older generations?
Standing Ovation, Please, cause what I just wrote on was awesome! .
-
Salaam,
Salat does include the voice, there is a verse explaining which tone of voice to use during prayer.
The first surah is 7 beautiful verses about God, it is no wrong reciting that for God. But if you want to compose something custom then go ahead, as long as it is for God alone.
Prostration is not completely off, it is an ancient gesture of courtesy. Can be done and showing yourself very humble in front of God, or to kneel as you have an example of in the Bible.
Use honest words to celebrate and praise the Lord. Show you really mean them.
God bless you
-
Salaam,
Salat does include the voice, there is a verse explaining which tone of voice to use during prayer.
The first surah is 7 beautiful verses about God, it is no wrong reciting that for God. But if you want to compose something custom then go ahead, as long as it is for God alone.
Prostration is not completely off, it is an ancient gesture of courtesy. Can be done and showing yourself very humble in front of God, or to kneel as you have an example of in the Bible.
Use honest words to celebrate and praise the Lord. Show you really mean them.
God bless you
Wa Aleykom Asalam,
Yes that is true, I won't deny that 17110. I wonder if Al Fatiha existed in previous scripture? I remember hearing someone say The Lord's Prayer in the bible was almost identical. Even so, still doesn't explain how generations before the Bible performed Salat.
But there is a problem in this verse. It nowhere mentions voice. I find that odd!
It simply says word for word
"wa la tajhar biSalatika wa lah tukhaafet biha"
" "
Tajhar meaning in Lane's lexicon Book I, page 474 (a thing) was, or became, plain, apparent, conspicuous, open or public.
Hmm but I think I ran into a wall when I looked up Tukhaafet. It means (voice) became still, silent, low, weak.
I'm not gonna say well...Tukhaafet CAN mean "make hidden", because it simply isn't there in Lane's Lexicon.
I admit my mistake on this one .
Still in the process of fully understanding Salat though!
-
Peace,
I am re-visiting the meaning of Salat now. I have been wondering about the three prayers prescribed in the Quran by name, then when I read 2238 in the middle of the topic of divorce, it makes me wonder if here it means bond, and to uphold the bonds/relations and the 'wusta'. I get the sense that maybe it means to maintain good BALANCED (wusta) bonds/relations with them (in reference to the divorced woman). At least when I read it in context.
Then what's interesting is the next verse, 2239, which traditionally is translated like this
"And if you fear on foot or riding. But when you are secure, then remember Allah , as He has taught you that which you did not know."
However there is something I found off about the second word in the verse, "Khiftum". It doesn't say "Fa in khOftom" (fear). But "khIftom".
I looked up Khif in Lane's Lexicon (Book I, page 770) and found these possible meanings
"Incited, or excited his people to be promptly obedient and submissive to him and that which he desired of him. Or he incited, or excited his people to levity, or unsteadiness, ignorance, foolishness and wrong conduct."
Also my understanding of the verse in arabic, is that it does not say "If you fear..WHILE on foot or riding.". If "Rijalan" and "rukuban" mean foot and riding..then to me the arabic suggests "If you (fear), THEN on foot or riding..". Not while.
So maybe it means
"If you are unsteady/ignorant/foolish about/towards (the divorced spouse?), THEN...(whatever the following couple of words mean), But if you believed/were sincere then remember Allah, as He has taught you that which you did not know."
It literally cites the word "khifa" next to the word "ignorance" on that page in Lane's Lexicon.
If this is correct and has more direct context in divorce/relationships, then perhaps this cancels the possibility that there is a Wusta Prayer and that Salawat does not mean 3 or more Prayers in this CONTEXT. Therefore it's possible there is either no specific number of prayers and/or there are only 2. I don't know..
Does this make any sense?
Underrated post! This basically sealed the deal for me for verses 2237-239. (Note that I'm just paraphrasing here)
Verse 237 You basically just broke up with your wife. You must still pay the dowry if you havent consummated/gone through with the marriage yet.
Verse 238 You should try to preserve all of your bonds/relationships, especially the most balanced/central bond/relationship in your life, which is the one you have with God. Ie. Through all of this, remember that you still have God - he is the most important thing in your life, not a woman/man.
Verse 239 If you are depressed/distressed/have anxiety due to your failed marriage, get your mind off things by going out and about (on foot or riding). Once you return into a peaceful mindset, remember God. After all, one must be in a clear mindset while maintaining the salat (443).
-
peace PAB, p1993,
Re 2239
I doubt your translation stacks up. I recommend using
http//corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=2&verse=239#(22391)With cross-reference of the key words. This will help illuminate the meaning perhaps.
My take http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=7727.10
post 17 -
Peace Family,
One day, if some of us try hard enough, we will convince ourselves to abandon the salat!
Muhammad?the messenger of GOD?and those with him are harsh and stern
against the disbelievers, but kind and compassionate amongst themselves. You see
them bowing and prostrating, as they seek GOD's blessings and
approval. Their marks are on their faces, because of prostrating. This is the same
example as in the Torah. Their example in the Gospel is like plants that grow taller
and stronger, and please the farmers. He thus enrages the disbelievers. GOD promises
those among them who believe and lead a righteous life forgiveness and a great
recompense.nope
-
Peace hawk99,
Sadly I think you are right. I have no understanding how some of us have drawn the conclusion that there are no prayers, but I guess I have to accept that )
Salat will, God willing, never leave my practices!
Peace be with you
-
I just need to say that the main argument against salat is that previous generations didn't have anything to recite right? But that could be wrong becouse they had the Book - the same book in all times.
Also ther is one argument against salat as ritual prayer where in one ayat mushriks are establishing salat, but the writer assumed that the mushriks means polytheist which also might not be true since it can mean whoever associates with the word of God (which we see nowadays amongst the hadeeth people)
Anyway we have to be careful about this its very important in the lives of the believers.
I am not for or against but I have to say if some of the arguments , in my opinion, don't stand.
Peace. -
peace hawk99,
Re 4829
Discussed here http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-of-SuJuD-from-Quran.htmlQuote
4829 Muhammad is the messenger of God, and those who are with him are stern against the concealers/rejecters/ingrates, but merciful between themselves. You see them inclining/humbling and SuJaD, seeking bounty from God and pleasure/approval. Their distinction is in their faces/attentions/considerations/wills/purposes, from the trace/teaching/influence of the SuJuD. Such is their example in the Torah. And their example in the Injeel is like a seed/crop which sends forth its shoot then strengthened it then becomes thick then stands upon its stem, pleasing to the sowers. That He may enrage the rejecters/concealers with them. God promises those who believe and do good works a forgiveness and a great reward.
It is interesting to note the preposition "fi" (in) not "ala" (on), making it "their distinction/mark is IN their faces/wills/purposes/considerations". Minority usage of "fi" can mean on/at however.
The word "athar" (root Alif-Tha-Ra) basically means "that which is left behind from something" hence its meanings such as trace/mark/impression/teaching/influence and is not necessarily a physical thing, see 546, 186, 2096, 3050.
The word "seema" (root Siin-Waw-Miim) means an identifying feature (e.g. could be the way someone looks or acts) see 2273, 746, 748, 4730, 5541. Perhaps the majority of people would not have a trace of prostration on their face from physically prostrating in prayer for example, even if it was done many times per day, so this understanding, whilst superficially plausible, actually falls short. Some translators, e.g. Asad, do not take it to mean a physical mark on one's face.
It should be noted that "inclining and SJD" seems to relate to "seeking bounty from God and pleasure/approval" whose other occurrences relate to worldly benefits/provisions.
It should be noted that in the prior context, 4825, it clearly implies some believers were unknown/unrecognisable, which makes it even more unlikely it is referring to a physical mark on one's face.
The "them" refers to the believers undergoing such growth. It may also imply that actualising oneself under the guidance of God's system leads to self-growth and benefits. There is an implication that the act of SJD can function as a catalyst to such growth, as it leaves an impression/influence upon such a person, thus the demeanor stems from that act/mindset, and results in fruitful growth and reward, and this is the message encapsulated in the example at the end. To achieve such effective growth, one's will/consideration/purpose/attention should be traceable back to the act of SJD."sujud" meaning physical prostration has many issues.
-
Peace,
Ok, but to me it does.
God bless you
-
peace MofF,
That may well be the case, but I much prefer an evidence-based discussion. For example I have seen many say salat means "prayer" but very few who actually present a reasonable case. This topic has been discussed many many times in this forum. By far the best threads can be found in the compilation of links thread http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598319.0
-
peace hawk99,
Re 4829
Discussed here http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-of-SuJuD-from-Quran.htmlQuote
"sujud" meaning physical prostration has many issues.Peace Wakas,
It appears that the Quran contains both obeisance (mental) as well as (physical)
prostration. Why did you translate rukkaan as inclining/humbling instead of bowing?48/29
Are you implying that there is no physical bowing in Quran also?
peace
-
peace hawk99,
RK3 has various classical arabic meanings. What I am implying in this case is that a solid case for "bowing" in salat from Quran is difficult to make. One can bow if they wish however.
Also I note you did not respond to any of the issues raised about 4829 yet you seemingly quoted it in favour of physical prostration.
-
peace hawk99,
Re 4829
Discussed here http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-of-SuJuD-from-Quran.html
Quote
"sujud" meaning physical prostration has many issues.Peace Wakas,
Outstanding link, very informative, however it appears there is physical sjd in Quran.
see 17/107017.107
Qul aminoo bihi aw la tu/minoo inna allatheena ootoo alAAilma min qablihi itha
yutla AAalayhim yakhirroona lil-athqani sujjadan
Say, "Believe in it or do not believe. Indeed, those who were given knowledge before
it - when it is recited to them, they fall upon their faces in prostration,017.109
Wayakhirroona lil-athqani yabkoona wayazeeduhum khushooAAan
Sahih International And they fall upon their faces weeping, and the Qur'an increases
them in humble submission.What is your opinion concerning these ayats.
God Bless
peace
-
Peace hawk,
let me give an answer, although I was not asked.
Outstanding link, very informative, however it appears there is physical sjd in Quran.
see 17/107017.107
Qul aminoo bihi aw la tu/minoo inna allatheena ootoo alAAilma min qablihi itha
yutla AAalayhim yakhirroona lil-athqani sujjadan
Say, "Believe in it or do not believe. Indeed, those who were given knowledge before
it - when it is recited to them, they fall upon their faces in prostration,017.109
Wayakhirroona lil-athqani yabkoona wayazeeduhum khushooAAan
Sahih International And they fall upon their faces weeping, and the Qur'an increases
them in humble submission.What is your opinion concerning these ayats.
You already underlined what appears to be a physical prostration. Obviously you did not underline "sujjadan". Hence there is no problem in these verses that there is a physical prostration but the word "sujjadan" is not linked to it. "Sujjadan" simply describes that the prostration takes place in an obedient/ submissive/ resprectful manner.
Moreover it not even likely that there is a prostration at all in 17107-109. Please compare with 2573.
And those who when they are reminded of their Lord?s verses, they do not fall (yakhirru) on them deaf and blind.
Again the verb "kharra"/ to fall is used, but does anyone see a prostration here? Both 17107-109 and 2573 describe the same thing falling in a special mental state, when the verses of the great reading are recited. This mental state comprises being obedient/ submissive/ respectful/ hearing and obeying. 2573 is a different way to decribe this mental state. It does so by negating the opposite, which is clearly being deaf and blind (in an allegorical sense).
I hope this helps.
Peace.
-
Peace hawk,
let me give an answer, although I was not asked.
You already underlined what appears to be a physical prostration. Obviously you did not underline "sujjadan". Hence there is no problem in these verses that there is a physical prostration but the word "sujjadan" is not linked to it. "Sujjadan" simply describes that the prostration takes place in an obedient/ submissive/ resprectful manner.
Moreover it not even likely that there is a prostration at all in 17107-109. Please compare with 2573.
And those who when they are reminded of their Lord?s verses, they do not fall (yakhirru) on them deaf and blind.
Again the verb "kharra"/ to fall is used, but does anyone see a prostration here? Both 17107-109 and 2573 describe the same thing falling in a special mental state, when the verses of the great reading are recited. This mental state comprises being obedient/ submissive/ respectful/ hearing and obeying. 2573 is a different way to decribe this mental state. It does so by negating the opposite, which is clearly being deaf and blind (in an allegorical sense).
I hope this helps.
Peace.
Yes, it does. Thank you
-
Peace hawk,
let me give an answer, although I was not asked.
You already underlined what appears to be a physical prostration. Obviously you did not underline "sujjadan". Hence there is no problem in these verses that there is a physical prostration but
Moreover it not even likely that there is a prostration at all in 17107-109. Please compare with 2573.
And those who when they are reminded of their Lord?s verses, they do not fall (yakhirru) on them deaf and blind.
Again the verb "kharra"/ to fall is used, but does anyone see a prostration here? Both 17107-109 and 2573 describe the same thing falling in a special mental state, when the verses of the great reading are recited. This mental state comprises being obedient/ submissive/ respectful/ hearing and obeying. 2573 is a different way to decribe this mental state. It does so by negating the opposite, which is clearly being deaf and blind (in an allegorical sense).
I hope this helps.
Peace.Thank you Timur,
I appreciate you taking time to respond, but to me 25/73 is clearly allegorical
while 17/107,109 is not. In 25/73 of the great reading it is saying "falls on deaf ears"
or "they ignore" while 17/107 should be taken literally.Peace hawk,
the word "sujjadan" is not linked to it. "Sujjadan" simply describes that the prostration takes place in an obedient/ submissive/ resprectful manner.
Peace.Agreed
SHAKIR And they fall down on their faces weeping, and it adds to their humility. 17/109
And what do we say in prostration? 017.108
Wayaqooloona subhana rabbina in kana waAAdu rabbina lamafAAoolan
YUSUFALI "And they say 'Glory to our Lord! Truly has the promise of our Lord been fulfilled!'"Or God be glorified
Timur, do you perform the salat ritual?
peace
-
peace hawk99,
I can't really add much more than what is written in the article.
If those verses are taken as a physical prostration then Quran is recommending to do so on one's chin. Also, if taken as such then is it implying they physically do this when Quran is read to them, and then there is the issue of consistency - all of which I discuss in the article.
