Hot/"ramadan" Answer
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Salam, noshirk
How did you come to this conclusion?
Doesn't the Quran say that The Sanctuary (al-Bayt) that was cleansed by Abraham is the one at Bakkah? So if Bakkah simply means "crowded place", the passage would be rendered as such
{The first Sanctuary established for the people is the one at a crowded place, blessed, and a guidance for the worlds * In it are clear signs the station of Abraham. And whoever enters it will be secure. And Allah is owed from the people to make hajj to the Sanctuary, whoever has the means to do so. And whoever rejects, then Allah has no need of the worlds}...
Does this seem logical to you? Why would Allah instruct people to make Hajj to a place that He specifically designated as the first ever of its kind that was established for humanity, and clearly refer to it as being the place that Abraham was lead to, only to have such a vague description of its location?
The term "Al-Bayt" that appears numerous times in the Quran refers to THE Sanctuary (the first one ever of its kind established for the people), which happens to be in Arabia.
{And We have made the Sanctuary to be a model for the people and a security. And you shall take, from the station of Abraham, a place for making the contact. And We entrusted to Abraham and Ishmael "You shall purify My Sanctuary for those who visit, and those who are devoted, and the kneeling, the prostrating}...
{And as Abraham removed the qawa'id from the Sanctuary , along with Ismael "Our Rabb, accept this from us, You are the Hearer, the Knowledgeable}...
{O you who believe, do not violate the symbols of Allah, nor the forbidden month, nor the donations, nor what is regulated, nor the safety made by the Forbidden Sanctuary; for they are seeking a bounty from their Lord and a blessing...}...
{Allah has made the kaa'bah to be the Forbidden Sanctuary; to enforce for the people, and for the forbidden month, and for the donations, and for regulation; that is so you may know that Allah knows what is in the heavens and what is in earth, and that Allah is aware of all things}...
{Our Rabb, I have resided some from my progeny in a valley with no vegetation, near your Forbidden Sanctuary. My Rabb, so that they may hold the salat. So let the hearts of the people incline towards them and give provisions to them of the fruits that they may give thanks}...
Which Sanctuary (Bayt) is mentioned in all of the above? Is this not the one to whose viccinity Abraham had migrated?
When the mysterious guests of Abraham greeted him and his wife (the future mother of ISHAQ), what did they say to him? Here's the answer
{They said "Do you wonder at the decree of Allah? The mercy of Allah and blessings are upon you, O people of the Sanctuary. He is Praiseworthy, Glorious.}...
When the Quran gave Muhammad a series of instructions concerning the behavior of his wives, and told him to relate these instructions to them, what did the Quran call Muhammad and his wives?
Here follows is the answer
{You shall be content in your homes, and do not show off like in the old days of ignorance. You shall uphold the salat, and contribute towards purification, and obey Allah and His messenger. Allah wishes to remove any affliction from you, O people of the Sanctuary, and to purify you completely}...
I am sorry...but I fail to see how the Bayt of Abraham is not the same Bayt that Muhammad later occupied. I fail to see how the "crowded place" to which Abraham called to all people for the hajj is different than the "crowded place" where Muhammad went to for his hajj.
The reason is because you insist on the hypothesis that the Quran does not mention proper names of places. As if mentioning proper names is somehow detrimental to the message?
There could be many such sanctuaries in the world. The CHerookee "Indians" of America might have had one such place somwehere, before white man arrived and colonized their land. The Incas of Peru might have had a Sanctuary somewhere up in the Andes Mountains. The people of Tibet might have observed rituals in a sacred grove or valley in the Himalayas, for all we know.
And then the Quran tells us that the FIRST Sanctuary ever established for mankind is the one in a "crowded place"? Does this seem to you like it does justice to the place?
Search your soul before you answer,
May Allah guide us all.
P.S I would like your opinion on the term "ahillah" which appears in as timing mechanisms for the hajj, and how it fits with your Autumn Equinox ramadan theory.
Also, I hope brother Ayman can give us his feedback on this issue.
Peace...
Salaam brother Pazuzu
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.root of bacca mean rush/crush/jostle (sorry i selected from google traduction). I deduced that Bacca is a crowded place in the meaningthat there is naturally many people there.
To see if explanation of Bacca fit, whe have first to agree on aim of Hajj and meaning of Masjid.
if you Traduce Bayt by sanctuary, Haram by sacred, probably will find that Crowded place not fit.I derived my understanding of Hajj and masjid from the great work of brother ayman.
Hajj is for me a feast where many people (not only believers since Quran use general word of Naass) are called to listen to words of God and debate.Masjid is a word that derive from word sjd wich means for me listen + obey + agree
i don't accept understanding of sacred for word haram. haram is opposite of halal and means the forbidden.
For me, Masjid is a place where laws of God are explained. Laws don't express wishes and generally are expressed in a form of "don't do...".Bayt means where someone lives.
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. .So bayt and masjid can means same thing. Bayt words points to the architectural aspect and Masjid to the function (like parliement).
(18-21 ???)i can push further the reasoning. Kaaba is simply the tribune where the speaker stands in the auditorium (masjid) and where the had'y (gift of Allah=words of Allah) reashes it's destination (mind and spirit of believers).
Putting all together, if aim of hajj is to transmit and explain words of God even to non muslims, it is more likely to place masjid and bayt in a place where there is people.
A desertic region in the hijaz (barrier) is the worse place one can chose for this objective.396 The first Sanctuary established for the people is the one in Bakk?a, blessed, and a guidance for the worlds.
Word first is a big problem in the "sanctuary sacred by allah himself" theory.
first means that there can be others and , probably, they are not even mentionned in quran.
is bayt "of muhammad" same as bayt of "Abraham" ?
i don't know. Perhaps the couple medina/median is the key for this questionyou said
The reason is because you insist on the hypothesis that the Quran does not mention proper names of places. As if mentioning proper names is somehow detrimental to the message?"
i didn't said such a thing. i dont know what names are proper names of a place and what are not.
i just responded to bender post to say that it is not easy to demonstrate that a place that seems to be a proper name of place is a propoer name of place. So it is not impossible that there is no proper name of place in Quran.P.S I would like your opinion on the term "ahillah" which appears in as timing mechanisms for the hajj, and how it fits with your Autumn Equinox ramadan theory.
Really, i don't know.
Before your question, i thought that Ahillah was phase of crescent moon.
Now that i focus on this point, a h l seems to be a root that is related to "people of" OR prepare for something (ahhala).
Of course, meaning of crescent moon exists and seems like if it comes from the meaning that moon is preparing to reappers.Really i doubt now that there is moon in 2-189.
A traduction without moon of 2-189 can be like this
2189 They ask you regarding the "when to make the preparation of regroupement" , say ?There are at specific timings for the people and the Hajj.? And piety is not that you would enter a home from its back (to go there for bad reasons like to eat and make feast), but piety is whoever is righteous and comes to the homes from their main doors (for deen reasons and get science of Words of God). And be aware of God that you may succeed.
i think (if a had good remembrance) that brother ayman used this verse to argue that, if we understand ahilla as crescent moon, that the starting of counting of a moon is the full moon (the main door) and not the crescent monn(back door).
But really, i am not sure.2-189 seems to be a "mutashabihat" ayat.
Peace
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Peace Birdy.
- "shahr ramadhan" is when the reading was descended as a guidance for people and clarifications from the guidance and the criterion, so whomever witnesses "al-shahr", let him abstain it. And whomever was sick or traveling so a count of other days. The God wants to facilitate and not make it hard on you. And so complete the count and magnify The God for what He guided you and perhaps you would be thankful.
As far as I understand, and I red trough this topic, "shahr ramadan" has nothing to do, so some of members interprate like that, with so called Ramadan when is fasting time.
But, in this verse we have
1.shahr ramadan when the reading was descended
2. shahr as an object? that can be witnessed and those who do that, has to fastThat means shahr doesn't mean a month but full moon?
If this is true then
if there is only mentioned shahr- marked bold- then could it be to fast by witnessing the full moon?
That will be each month, rufly speaking, some 3 days, because after few days there is no more full moon.PS Maybe was my question already stated, but I haven't noticed..
The issue has been discussed here http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9600410.0 I don't know, whether it was also adressed within the "hot ramadan"-topic itself.
Moreover we had a discussion concerning the fast of 3 days every full-moon in our german forum. Have a look here
http//forum.meine-islam-reform.de/index.php?topic=300.0
The idea about the 3-day-fast arose from this post onwards
http//forum.meine-islam-reform.de/index.php?topic=300.msg6714#msg6714 -
Peace brother Timur,
According to brother Ayman's theory the period of fasting starts right after the first full-moon after the summer solstice (shahr ramadan). In Europe this will be the case on June, the 23rd.
You are correct. In the northern hemisphere, the full-moon after the solstice will be June 23rd.
I would like to request a big favor from everyone
In most places, the full-moon will appear shortly after the sun sets and remember the following passages as you witness it
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So I do swear by the redness of dusk.
After sunset when the sky is glowing red -
And the night and what it enshrouds.
and the night enshrouds the sky from the opposite direction -
And the moon when it becomes symmetric.
from this direction the full symmetric moon appears.
Please take a picture of the full-moon as it appears and post it here.
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
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Salam to all.
Excellent idea brother Ayman. I shall endeavour God willing to take a picture and post it here. I must say now that my mind is somewhat clear on when and how I am supposed to fast, I am looking forward to Ramadhan this year. Still a little unclear on the 10-30 days (sigh)! Still delving deep, Inshaa Allah I will have one of those Eureka moments lol.jedi
Peace and best wishes to all.
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Salam all,
Can someone tell me how long this period will last from right after the first full moon after the summer solstice? I'm not in the mood to go through this whole thread. Thank you.
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Peace Abdelilah,
I'm not upholding or intending to "follow" this theory. I am aware that we shouldn't uobold anything without knowledge about it, and will certainly study this thread thoroughly. All I want at the moment is "know" the timings and the range of the fasting days in a simple sentence. So if you or anyone else would help me, I would really appreciate it ).
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Peace FA 21098,
The burning full-moon ("shahr ramadan" will occur this year on June 23. Thus, the abstinence will start on Monday June 24 and will last for a completed count of a few days ("ayam ma3doodat" as per 2185. The completion of a count is 10 as per 2196 and 7142.
Hope this helps
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Peace,
Thanks
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Peace Birdy,
I know hardly any Arabic, but what little I do know inspired me to fast for the duration of the full moon following the longest day. This is what I did last year. I shall be doing it again this yer on the 23rd June, God willing.
I would like to remind folk that God clearly states he doesn't want to make life difficult. Well, where I come from, this year, Muslims wii find life difficult trying to fast until nearly 11pm at night. Whatever, that cannot be right.
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Peace dawngorgeous and all, sun
thank you for respond/s.
I think the same, as you've said, that some people have to fast long days and additionaly in summer when is very hot in some countries.
According to above, In my understanding I think the fasting time should be in the time of equinox and that is spring or autmn but it needs also full moon. The other indikation are 4 months that are restricted but for hunting of wild animals. if we take in considaration that in those 4 months the wild bear or are in the state of reproduction, then it is mostly in the rain time. and those are spring or autmn. Autmn is more appropiate because the months after are still better for hunting because they are not so hot as the months after spring( summer months).
Besides of my statment in this post I've thought why couldn't muslims fast each month 3 days by full moon but only if in those 4 restricted month we are allowed to fast, or the 4 months aren't in context in Koran with fasting anyway- I fall to see any context- if so, then all of us could fast in the same time and one part of us will have sometimes long days to fast and the others short days, also colder and hotter days and that s fair. I don't understand the verse that we have to complete the fast of 10 days, only few days- full moon appears for 1 day and to complete to few days means for me 3 days.
God Mercifully knows better.May God guide us to the stright path.
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Peace All,
When I said 'that can't be right' in my last post, I was making reference to those Muslims who would be fasting for a whole month - especially until 11 pm at night, eat, then up again at 2am. They'll still be full from the night feast!
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Peace,
I would say fast from when the sun rises up visibly in the sky until it disappears visibly, even if it never gets completely dark. It is the rule I applied in Sweden during Ramadan because I cannot believe we have to stop fasting and eating at 11 and then the only other opportunity is to have a meal right before 2 in the night.
With the above rule I think it becomes like 9-10pm to 3-4am time span to do whatever needs to be done until the fasting is on again.
I know how tough it is to work full-time on a demanding job and fast until very late in the night and then go up on more time after a few hours to topfill the stomach. The northern countries have a quite hard time during the fasting nights.
At least it is not the fast Youssef here on the forum undertook
God bless you
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These days sunset is at near 10pm (daylight saving time).... but does it ever get really dark? No, dusk and dawn light merges... so the typical style of eating only when there is no white thread in the sky, just won't work. So what's going on here? Is the timing of fasting misplaced in the cycle of the solar year, or are there even greater misunderstandings going on? I find it hard to believe that God would instruct people to fast during certain times that are not even applicable at certain places during certain times of the year. Something is wrong here....
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These days sunset is at near 10pm (daylight saving time).... but does it ever get really dark? No, dusk and dawn light merges... so the typical style of eating only when there is no white thread in the sky, just won't work. So what's going on here? Is the timing of fasting misplaced in the cycle of the solar year, or are there even greater misunderstandings going on? I find it hard to believe that God would instruct people to fast during certain times that are not even applicable at certain places during certain times of the year. Something is wrong here....
This is why you need Hadith. Without Hadith Quran will never make sense.
According to Hadith if there is a situation where there is continuous daylight or some other odd situation then you make an estimation or calculation for the timings of your acts of worship.
That means if you live in a place where there is continuous daylight or darkness, then you calculate using the township which is nearest to you which doesn't have that problem.
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Thanks for your respons.
Right, I understand, and I've been following the same method, HOWEVER, let's be very clear here. What hadith does, is to patch up an unclear situation with a rule of exception. This doesn't address the issue at all. Actually, if we need hadith because the quran is not clear, then this is the same as saying that the quran is not complete, and hadith will complete it where needed. But again, this is not the situation. The real issue is not that information is lacking in the quran, which is then solved by information from hadith. The real issue is that we may have the incorrect understanding of the quran, and hence our understanding doesn't fit with reality/nature. See, these are two totally different situations. We must not confuse them and mix'em up.
Just to highlight again
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The problem according to hadith proponents "The quran contains instructions, but further information from hadith is needed in order to make useful sense out of it all."
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The problem according to me "The quran contains instructions that are exhaustive, complete and accurate, but our understanding is lacking which becomes apparent when it doesn't fit nature."
The key point to understand is that our current understanding 'clashes' with nature/reality (because it is faulty)... AND that hadith does NOT solve this clash... it just ignores it and gives you a way around it while the initial clash IS STILL THERE. So hadith did NOT solve the issue, nor did it clarify it by supplying missing information. This is important to understand. Hadith doesn't do what it claims to do. It just invents another instruction, which doesn't add any clarity or explanation to the quran... rather it ignores the quran and leads away from it!
So, we don't need to do symptom treatment by adding a layer of hadith on our faulty understanding, to get even further away from the quran... rather we need to make sure we have an accurate understanding in the first place. Actually, this is at one level a matter of faith.... of personal attitude and view of God. We simply have to choose whether we believe that the quran is accurate and complete, or not.
That's how I see it. And just because there is something I may not understand right now, it would be foolish by me to make up an artificial understanding to fill the void. Such an attitude just leads further away from truth.
Peace
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Thanks for your respons.
Right, I understand, and I've been following the same method, HOWEVER, let's be very clear here. What hadith does, is to patch up an unclear situation with a rule of exception. This doesn't address the issue at all. Actually, if we need hadith because the quran is not clear, then this is the same as saying that the quran is not complete, and hadith will complete it where needed. But again, this is not the situation. The real issue is not that information is lacking in the quran, which is then solved by information from hadith. The real issue is that we may have the incorrect understanding of the quran, and hence our understanding doesn't fit with reality/nature. See, these are two totally different situations. We must not confuse them and mix'em up.
Just to highlight again
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The problem according to hadith proponents "The quran contains instructions, but further information from hadith is needed in order to make useful sense out of it all."
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The problem according to me "The quran contains instructions that are exhaustive, complete and accurate, but our understanding is lacking which becomes apparent when it doesn't fit nature."
The key point to understand is that our current understanding 'clashes' with nature/reality (because it is faulty)... AND that hadith does NOT solve this clash... it just ignores it and gives you a way around it while the initial clash IS STILL THERE. So hadith did NOT solve the issue, nor did it clarify it by supplying missing information. This is important to understand. Hadith doesn't do what it claims to do. It just invents another instruction, which doesn't add any clarity or explanation to the quran... rather it ignores the quran and leads away from it!
So, we don't need to do symptom treatment by adding a layer of hadith on our faulty understanding, to get even further away from the quran... rather we need to make sure we have an accurate understanding in the first place. Actually, this is at one level a matter of faith.... of personal attitude and view of God. We simply have to choose whether we believe that the quran is accurate and complete, or not.
That's how I see it. And just because there is something I may not understand right now, it would be foolish by me to make up an artificial understanding to fill the void. Such an attitude just leads further away from truth.
Peace
Salaamun alayka,
very nice bravo
Salaam,
Bender -
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You say the real problem is that we are not understanding the Quran properly. Are you saying for 1400 years no one has even understood the Quran, which claims to be a clear book which contains no doubt and a guide for righteous??
I think your dilemma is quite simple. You are on one hand claiming Quran is an exhaustive book, fully detailed, not needing any kind of supplemental text or explanation, but then on the other hand you cant even figure out such a basic thing like how to observe a fast based only the info you got from Quran.
Time for you Quranists to get real and stop deluding yourselves.
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Peace,
Need no hadith for the intention and performance of the fasting for a month. It is pretty clear what one should do. If you miss or day or two unintentionally because of your shortcomings it is fine as long as you fast for the duration of a month. Intention at heart is most important.
God bless you
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You say the real problem is that we are not understanding the Quran properly. Are you saying for 1400 years no one has even understood the Quran, which claims to be a clear book which contains no doubt and a guide for righteous??
I say that there are some things in the quran we don't understand properly. I DO NOT say that there is no-one with the right understanding, and I DO NOT say that there has never been a correct understanding. But I wouldn't trust the majority, as also advised in the quran. The majority and main stream populace usually base its understanding on tradition and habit, and not on reason.
I believe that God guides us individually to the quran and wisdom in general. If we are not "connected" enough to God, i.e. pure of heart, we won't be blessed with insight into truth.
Also, one could say similar things about Christians.... how is it possible that they are wrong when they have been saying the same thing for longer than the quran has been around? Let's not appeal to time or numbers. Quantity will not do it if the quality is wrong.
I think your dilemma is quite simple. You are on one hand claiming Quran is an exhaustive book, fully detailed, not needing any kind of supplemental text or explanation, but then on the other hand you cant even figure out such a basic thing like how to observe a fast based only the info you got from Quran.
Time for you Quranists to get real and stop deluding yourselves.
That's the dilemma, you're right. But I'd rather admit lacking in certain understanding, and pray for guidance, instead of being over confident, ignoring the signs of discrepancy, and adopt instruction from other than God.
How about the cutting hands and smacking corpses with meat? People STILL uphold this as truth, even though it by simple logic and analysis of the quranic text can be explained in a wise, productive and sane way. So apparently there are plenty of things that already have been explained from the quran itself, while the insane version is still upheld by the majority.