Quran alone discussion on a Traditional Islamic Forum
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Peace Mario.
Yes, It's very popular reacently in many online forums especially about Quraniyoon vs Ahlul Hadis (mostly Sunnah wal Jama'ah).
Myself even involved in great debate in domestc forum, and the Sunni's ask the same with the Ahl Hadis in Islamawakened.I have no comment for this, but keep debate with musyawaroh and peacefully.
4238 And those who have responded to their Lord, and they hold the contact prayer, and their affairs are conducted by syuro'/musyawaroh/peaceful discussion among themselves, and from Our provisions to them they give.
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Peace Brother,
Thanks for sharing that discussion. I am reminded of this part of verse (6109) the context is slightly different but it can be applied generally to those who have access to signs but choose to reject harshly. "...What will make you realize that even if a sign came to them they still would not believe?"
There's some hostility on that thread. I wonder if it was them telling the message to Christians or other faiths and they go "I smell a Muslim" how they would take it.
Peace Sister,
I believe that our duty is only to spread the word about Quran alone. Our duty is not to guide anyone. Because we can not guide anyone. The Quran tells us that only GOD can guide people. The Quranic verse you referred to (verse 6109) clearly shows us that some people will never believe, no matter how much proof we show them. They live in denial of reality. However, if we put the message out there for the Traditional muslims, some of them might start to question their beliefs. The root cause of their belief system is Hadith. Without Hadith their belief system has no legs to stand on. If we show them that Hadiths are fabricated and falsely attributed to Prophet Muhammed, then some of them might start to doubt hadith and seek the truth.
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Peace Sister,
I believe that our duty is only to spread the word about Quran alone. Our duty is not to guide anyone. Because we can not guide anyone. The Quran tells us that only GOD can guide people. The Quranic verse you referred to (verse 6109) clearly shows us that some people will never believe, no matter how much proof we show them. They live in denial of reality. However, if we put the message out there for the Traditional muslims, some of them might start to question their beliefs. The root cause of their belief system is Hadith. Without Hadith their belief system has no legs to stand on. If we show them that Hadiths are fabricated and falsely attributed to Prophet Muhammed, then some of them might start to doubt hadith and seek the truth.
Peace Brother,
I agree - God is their Guide and our Guide. We should/can put the message out there for whoever wants to take it. We will do this in different ways - it says in the Quran (my paraphrasing) that we still remind where we can for it may help those who still have yet to come to the path. Sometimes you just put a simple message out, and then people may not come straight away, but it could takes months, years or however long. Allah swt will guide them as much as they wish to be guided.
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What I find pretty amazing is that these morons insult The Quran big time by saying that it is incomplete and insufficient as well as comparing it's entire existence to that of the ahadith (a major form of disrespect) but these same knuckle heads will cause mass riots and chop off peoples heads if someone were to urinate on this same book or label it as "Satanic Verses". It's no wonder at all that they are the most hated group of people on earth.
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Peace,
That is why I prefer to refer to myself as a Believer, or Man of Faith. Today's definition muslim has been painted so black unfortunately. In the meantime I am sure God did not force us to use the Arabic language word muslim, but I found none but awkward translations of the word into English. But changing too much may indicate that one has fallen into a sect, I guess, instead of countering the issue.
When it comes down to it I must say I have embraced islam and being on the muslim path. To my ignorant people (those who wonder why the Hell I have picked islam which is a religion of maniacs running around with AK-47s and while yelling 'Allahu Akhbar' I can only say the islam I follow is not that religion or something along the lines. I run into immense problems in my mother country because of my Faith despite that I try to tell them that these people they see in media are something else.
Regarding God is the only One who guides it is somewhat correct, but our actions to attempt guiding people do actually count and may affect people. A man or woman who searches for Wisdom and Knowledge over a longer duration of time will render some (not all) disbelievers speechless when confronting them and may as well make them get on a straight path. We must remember God works His marvels through us so believing we are helpless on a career of guiding people is not entirely correct. Messengers of God, prophets and simply blessed men of understanding could all affect people around then. Jesus, for example, had throngs of people following him around and apparently Muhammad as well. A "lesser" servant of God who is blessed with the Holy Spirit can surely carry his or her weight too.
I was reading this thread on islamic awakening (what a joke as title for a website by the way ironically) where they were hammering on this brother who tried to reason with them. I cannot understand how you can behave this way and still consider yourself muslim, why does not a bell ring?
I read a hadith of sahih bukhari today and there was this interesting one which told (177) "Narrated Mahmud bin Rabi'a - When I was a boy of five, I remember, the prophet took water from a bucket with his mouth and threw it on my face." The point with this hadith is beyond me. Why do you do like this?
However, the prophet was perhaps joking with the child as an adult can do with a child, but I was still wondering what the point was.
God bless you
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Peace All,
Consider our enemy, the enemy of mankind, satan the rejected, who has vowed not
to stand by and let the humans tread the siratul mustaqeem unchallenged, whose
chief weapon are the human beings themselves whose ignorance and ego's make them
perfect subjects for satan's rule. Now consider this what is the best way to attack a
group of individuals who have a belief system that is based on writings past down
over thousands of years? One way is to find a way to corrupt those writings, another
way is to hide them. However the Quran poses a unique problem because the message
has remained intact. The insertion of idolatry has posed a monumentous task for satan
that he has not been able to overcome thru the ages. So what is left for him to do?
One solution that remains, is for him to hide those writings which he has done due to the
fact that many muslims do not read Quran, and only live as they are told by the authorities.
Another way to deceive is to create outside influences on the individuals such as persons
or other writings, such as hadith in Islam, gemmrah in judaism as examples. Satan was/is
our avowed enemy and formitable in such a way as to turn brother against brother sister
against sister. I seek refuge in Allah from satan the rejected.God Bless
peace
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Peace hawk,
That's a very good point about what would they change in terms of scripture if they couldn't change the Quran? I have asked a similar question to some of the Sunni members on here about the way religious authorities can change things, just like the Quran says they did in the past so this time the Quran is perserved - what will they use? They seem to think its just the religious authority of the past that did that, not today. The lessons in the Quran show this is about human nature and those who corrupted things for power, wealth or just because they could, but ultimately, they only corrupted themselves.
May God guide us and protect us on the path that leads straight to Him
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I have no comment for this, but keep debate with musyawaroh and peacefully.
Peace Earthdom, all
I think it is not always easy to remain calm if people use dirty tactics (Ad hominem, Red herring, Appeal to authority, Appeal to emotion etc.) in a discussion. But with practice, we can become patient and peaceful, and have a discussion in the best possible way.
Quran 16125 Invite to the path of your Lord with wisdom and good advice, and argue with them in that which is better. Your Lord is fully aware of who is misguided from His path, and He is fully aware of the guided ones.
The discussion in the traditional islamic forum turned into a debate. Unfortunetly it seems that all such discussions turn into debates. Even dough I occasionally engage in debates, personally I prefer to have a dialectic instead of having a debate.
Dialectic
http//wrangl.com/dialectic
http//www.wisegeek.com/what-is-dialectic.htm
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Peace hawk99,
While your post was very good I think there is something else to add. Interpretation of the Quran through wishful thinking. I think that is another trick of Shaytaan now once he cannot pervert the actual scripture itself.
Thanks for your original post brother and hope you appreciate my addition.
God bless you
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Peace Man of Faith,
Thanks for the addition, as you say, " Interpretation of the Quran through wishful
thinking" is an awesome quality of Quran Kareem and that is what I call "the mirror
effect" what I mean by this is that the Quran exposes our true convictions.After the setback, He sent down upon you peaceful slumber that pacified
some of you. Others among you were selfishly concerned about themselves.
They harbored thoughts about GOD that were not right? the same thoughts
they had harbored during the days of ignorance. Thus, they said, "Is anything
up to us?" Say, "Everything is up to GOD." They concealed inside themselves
what they did not reveal to you. They said, "If it was up to us, none of us would
have been killed in this battle." Say, "Had you stayed in your homes, those
destined to be killed would have crawled into their death beds." GOD thus puts
you to the test to bring out your true convictions, and to test what is in your hearts.
GOD is fully aware of the innermost thoughts.The inheritly violent person will "see" the Quran as a warriors manual, the confused
person will be confused by it, the non-believer will see it as nonsense, the humble
person will be made content by it. The person in search of salvation can find wisdom
in its ayats. The tyrant will use it to further his agenda, the believer wll be brought
to tears and will fall prostrate.
What a book!All praise to God lord of the Universe
peace
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The discussion in the traditional islamic forum turned into a debate. Unfortunetly it seems that all such discussions turn into debates. Even dough I occasionally engage in debates, personally I prefer to have a dialectic instead of having a debate.
http//wrangl.com/dialectic
http//www.wisegeek.com/what-is-dialectic.htmPeace Mario
Yes I ever debate with them in domestic forums and thanks for the links but don't bother to give me that links since I'm not english speaker. -
The inheritly violent person will "see" the Quran as a warriors manual, the confused
person will be confused by it, the non-believer will see it as nonsense, the humble
person will be made content by it. The person in search of salvation can find wisdom
in its ayats. The tyrant will use it to further his agenda, the believer wll be brought
to tears and will fall prostrate.
What a book!All praise to God lord of the Universe
peace
Peace hawk99,
I like the way you put this. I think there are times when everyone can feel like they don't understand what something means in the Quran, but once we ask Allah swt for help we gain deeper understanding or perhaps its a topic that we are only ever supposed to know a little bit about to make things easier. Like when it warns the believers at the time of initial revelation, not to ask for so many things about possibly minute things, because they would receive a type of answer and in the long run it would make things more difficult... a little like the story of the calf.
Overall, those categories fit well. May all those who seek the Creator become closer to Him and know of His Mercy.
