Heaven, hell, god, and Islam - questions unanswered for too long.

huruf

Great exchange between you, Faithful and Suportpeace,

As to the questions regarding atheists and similar I would like to add something. Many atheists are so because the theists, who many times ar blinded to the inconsistencies of their own beliefs in "God". We, those who are not God, cannot know God, and behave as if we did know and project our lack of knowledge on other people who may consciously or unconscioulsy apreciate our lack of knowledge and on top of it, "believers" are not always and have not been always models of behaviour. History is full of the horrors caused by "believers". So it is likely that many people are put off by the mere idea of "God", who besides, in many believers minds, is represented as a bearded angry man. The incapacity to grasp God lends itself to mind images who may be outright disorienting for people who want knowledge and therefore react in the sense that "if God is that I do not care for it, I do not believe in God".

I will go further to elaborate that ANY people who are sincere and support compassion, justice, truth, faithfulness, who live according to their principles, universal principles, of justice, etc, etc. are indeed believers.Let us not forget that God in the Truthful Qur'an tells us to call God by His names. No human being knows God absolutely, we all what we know of God is partial, we may grasp some of His names, but never absolutely or all of them at the same time. We tend to be specialised. Some people may live and know more of Al Latif, others more of As-shakur, etc. And the names of God are many, not only the 99 usually recited. His names are like hands that Gods stretches to limited human beings to get closer to Him.

So people who declare themselves atheists, do so referring their declaration to some idea of God, but that idea of God is not God, it cannot be God, it is merely an idea, therefore they are not atheists, but non adherents of a certain idea of God. However, when in their lives they practice and trust and uphold and Believe in justice, truth, goodness, what are they doing but showing belief in Al 3adl, Al-Haqq, Al-Latif, etc., etc., Of course they are believers, no matter what they say, only they do not lie to themselves that they take as a "God" a pitiful idea of a figure that sometimes appears even worse than many humans.

We may get real shocks yaum el deen when we see the accounts and the real worth of what people did and believe. And mostly I think that people will not be as sad as they fear. Life is difficult, very difficult, if we want to attain purity, even though we blame ourselves continuously, and God, Bismillahiraahmannirahim is benevolent and gracious, He, if He wills, will not be hard on most poor wretches that we are, only we may need to learn a little more, and learning always comes through effort.

Alhamdulil-lahi rabbil3alamin!

Salaam

Faithful_

Salaam Faithful.,

Tbh, I've only read parts of it when I wanted to compare translations, but on the whole it seem like a good translation, I think it also has notes which may be helpful as well. However, I as far as I'm aware the reformist translation removes two verses from Surah 9, which I disagree with. It can still be referred to though, in terms of comparing translations. Especially for contentious verses like 434 which was traditionally translated as beat wives.

Interesting. I'll look into it a little more, thanks for the honest review.

Don't worry about it, its ok. I understand that some people are brought up like this. It can take a bit of time, but you will get there if you keep taking the steps you are taking, in my opinion, insha'Allah. I think the concept of hell has been misused by people as a form of control over the smallest matters. Everything I get form this is a clear warning, that you can't confuse yourself about. It's also that people know that whatever evil has been committed against them, if there is no justice in this world, there will be justice in the Hereafter. It says many times that the believers will not fear and will not grieve. All we need to do is ask Allah to grant this to us and grant His protection to us on the Day of Judgement. I haven't come across anything in the Quran that says you must pray x number of times in order to go to heaven - it does say that those who abandoned salat are of those who are lost. But this can mean abandoning salat entirely and because the types of people who commit the worst crimes are those who lose their connection and communication with Allah swt out of their own choice.

I think I am finally coming to terms with the idea that hell is not the primary motivation for believing in god or to do certain things as prescribed by a given religion. It's still difficult, and there are still times where I feel a sense of dread in the background, as if I'm thinking too much and that my god is punishing me for it by pushing me away from the "right" path. But I know it's wrong to think this way. I know that I've never been truly content with my religion, and that with this newfound understanding of heaven and hell, I am finally starting to see Islam in a different light. It's like I have to start from the bottom up again - I've never really been told what restrictions for me have been written in the Qur'an vs. the Hadith, and I've never really been given the chance to examine what the Qur'an reads on these restrictions for myself. I feel like I have to start over - like I don't really know what my religion means anymore. But when I look back on my religion, when I read the Qur'an this time - it will be with an eye for justice, common sense, and goodness.

Maybe Allah will help these people ask the questions they need to and search for answers one day so they can understand their relationship with Him as they need to.

I was considering this idea as well, but I came across one idea that troubles me slightly. If god helps everyone to understand their relationship with Him in different ways, what are the importance of the smaller rules, such as avoiding eating pig? I personally cannot eat pig due to the extensive bias placed against it throughout my entire life, but it is still something worth thinking about. One way to view the Qur'an that I have been considering is to consider it from the viewpoint that it really was written 1400 years ago, and that as a result, the lesson involved is perhaps more important the actual text at some points that seem a bit arbitrary. Pig is one example. If I were to find that pigs were very difficult to clean and eat without acquiring some kind of food-borne illness back in the prophet's time, could I interpret the bias against swine to be a bias against food which is unclean, a warning for people to have more common sense when choosing their meal? Or is it that I am interpreting a bit too far?

Yes, I completely agree. We need to read the Quran holistically and understand the way stories and parables, and so forth come together to create themes that guide us. I believe understanding the Quran is all about understanding the themes involved - I've mentioned this elsewhere when people condemn the Quran for its structure.

Thank you for this perspective on Qur'an reading; I think it helps me a lot.

I would say that this man is a follower of some central principles of Islam and the Quran. He would appear to care about goodness which raises further questions. Does he believe there is any form of ultimate justice? If not, why not? Does he believe God is irrelevant to his life or is he quietly in his own way searching for answers? It could be these people guided by God very gently towards Himself. We're all different and some people might take a whole different approach to others.

I suppose the important thing, then, is that we understand god made us all different, both in our viewpoints and in our upbringing. That's something I think a lot of people within a religion have a hard time accepting, when they have grown up in the religion all their lives and have grown up to believe a certain thing. We have the Westboro Baptist Church as an example. We shouldn't mimic their mentality - it's dangerous.

In my opinion, you are a Muslim. when the Quran was revealed, there were no hadiths as we know them today, those were compiled hundreds of years later. So I think people back then could have been doing exactly what we are doing now!

I think that within the next few months, I will eventually tell my parents that I do not necessarily share their same view on the religion. I think that I am still muslim too. I just have to work on convincing my parents of that. I don't wish to change their beliefs, but I do want them to be comfortable with mine.

that sounds like the people around you focus on division rather than focusing Allah.

Yes, and that's something I'm no longer comfortable with.

There are more as well, and as I mentioned earlier in this post, we say each Surah and over our food as well Bismillah hir-Rahman nir-Raheem. I feel like we are always being told to remember Allah's swt mercy first.

I'd rather be controlled by a merciful lord than a wrathful one. I believe that my god is indeed merciful.

Faithful_

Great exchange between you, Faithful and Suportpeace,

As to the questions regarding atheists and similar I would like to add something. Many atheists are so because the theists, who many times ar blinded to the inconsistencies of their own beliefs in "God". We, those who are not God, cannot know God, and behave as if we did know and project our lack of knowledge on other people who may consciously or unconscioulsy apreciate our lack of knowledge and on top of it, "believers" are not always and have not been always models of behaviour. History is full of the horrors caused by "believers". So it is likely that many people are put off by the mere idea of "God", who besides, in many believers minds, is represented as a bearded angry man. The incapacity to grasp God lends itself to mind images who may be outright disorienting for people who want knowledge and therefore react in the sense that "if God is that I do not care for it, I do not believe in God".

I will go further to elaborate that ANY people who are sincere and support compassion, justice, truth, faithfulness, who live according to their principles, universal principles, of justice, etc, etc. are indeed believers.

This is a very powerful statement, and something I have been pondering for a while. All those qualities you mentioned are subsets of 'good', and what more could a good god want than for his followers to also be good? Is this a personal belief that you have, or do you have any Qur'anic verses to support this idea? Truly, this is a powerful idea, and to have it reconciled by the Qur'an would reassure me as a muslim greatly.

So people who declare themselves atheists, do so referring their declaration to some idea of God, but that idea of God is not God, it cannot be God, it is merely an idea, therefore they are not atheists, but non adherents of a certain idea of God. However, when in their lives they practice and trust and uphold and Believe in justice, truth, goodness, what are they doing but showing belief in Al 3adl, Al-Haqq, Al-Latif, etc., etc., Of course they are believers, no matter what they say, only they do not lie to themselves that they take as a "God" a pitiful idea of a figure that sometimes appears even worse than many humans.

I'd really love to believe this, and a part of me already does. Thanks for the input. If you don't mind me asking then, what do you take from the Qur'an in your readings? What parts of the Qur'an do you follow that might appear, on the surface, to be illogical, and what do you take as rationale for following these things? I only ask because you state that any good person is a believer, but there are some restrictions in the Qur'an, such as eating pig (see post above in response to supportpeacenotwar) that can be difficult for believers in this day and age to comprehend.

We may get real shocks yaum el deen when we see the accounts and the real worth of what people did and believe. And mostly I think that people will not be as sad as they fear. Life is difficult, very difficult, if we want to attain purity, even though we blame ourselves continuously, and God, Bismillahiraahmannirahim is benevolent and gracious, He, if He wills, will not be hard on most poor wretches that we are, only we may need to learn a little more, and learning always comes through effort.

Alhamdulil-lahi rabbil3alamin!

Salaam

Well if anything, I hope that god can see that I'm putting forth some good effort to understand him. I will not abandon him out of weakness, inability to understand, or out of my disagreement with the interpretation of others. I will find my own path to god.

Again, thanks to everyone who responded! Please keep the responses coming!

supportpeacenotwar

I think I am finally coming to terms with the idea that hell is not the primary motivation for believing in god or to do certain things as prescribed by a given religion. It's still difficult, and there are still times where I feel a sense of dread in the background, as if I'm thinking too much and that my god is punishing me for it by pushing me away from the "right" path. But I know it's wrong to think this way. I know that I've never been truly content with my religion, and that with this newfound understanding of heaven and hell, I am finally starting to see Islam in a different light. It's like I have to start from the bottom up again - I've never really been told what restrictions for me have been written in the Qur'an vs. the Hadith, and I've never really been given the chance to examine what the Qur'an reads on these restrictions for myself. I feel like I have to start over - like I don't really know what my religion means anymore. But when I look back on my religion, when I read the Qur'an this time - it will be with an eye for justice, common sense, and goodness.

Salaam,

That sounds like you've come a long way, and I believe in times like this we are closer to God swt than we might imagine. When I first came back to the Quran (theres a back story but I'll leave it and its a bit personal), I didn't realise hadith were not part of the revelation and so I was following a few things in hadith, although not for long, when I considered the issue of preservation of hadith - there is nothing in the Quran that states we should follow Hadiths, in fact the Quran states that it is the only Hadith and so on. The Quran does not state that Hadith will be preserved - this is only reiterated with the fact that hadith go against the teachings of the Quran in many many places. But as soon as I found out this issue surrounding Hadith, it was like an amazing revelation to me, subhan'Allah. Not only did it clarify that Islam was based on the God's guidance and the Quran but that the Quran itself had made this striking point about the nature of all other hadiths. Then when I started to examine whether or not an aspect of a particular story relating to the Prophets, or Sarah - I knew some of these from when I was growing up - from either Hadith or Bible was true or not, it felt like a real discovery on my personal journey.

That may sound strange to other people, but thats how it felt, that through Allah's guidance the reality of Islam was unearthed and started to take shape as I read the Quran.

I was considering this idea as well, but I came across one idea that troubles me slightly. If god helps everyone to understand their relationship with Him in different ways, what are the importance of the smaller rules, such as avoiding eating pig? I personally cannot eat pig due to the extensive bias placed against it throughout my entire life, but it is still something worth thinking about. One way to view the Qur'an that I have been considering is to consider it from the viewpoint that it really was written 1400 years ago, and that as a result, the lesson involved is perhaps more important the actual text at some points that seem a bit arbitrary. Pig is one example. If I were to find that pigs were very difficult to clean and eat without acquiring some kind of food-borne illness back in the prophet's time, could I interpret the bias against swine to be a bias against food which is unclean, a warning for people to have more common sense when choosing their meal? Or is it that I am interpreting a bit too far?

It could be that those who receive the Quran, that abstaining from pigs meat for example, is a test or requirement. A bit like the tree and Adam and Eve. They are told of the tree and have knowledge so it is for them to abstain from it. Although this could be a parable with a general metaphor, I'm not sure how literal it is. If this can be compared to the restraint required with the tree and Adam and Eve, I think it's a much smaller version. It's also similar to the story of Saul (2249) where his people reach water, and they are told to not drink from it, or only drink the smallest amount. But even though they have a Messenger in their midst, I think it says that many drank from the water. Could also be similar to this. It could be a lesson in self restraint, or perhaps common sense as you mention. It could be about trusting Allah, in that we might not know all the reasons for this particular avoidance but we believe in the Quran's revelation so we follow through.

Thank you for this perspective on Qur'an reading; I think it helps me a lot.

I'm glad it helps. For some of these things that seem ordinary to me - I remember that I once did not know this or the type of approach to take at first.

I suppose the important thing, then, is that we understand god made us all different, both in our viewpoints and in our upbringing. That's something I think a lot of people within a religion have a hard time accepting, when they have grown up in the religion all their lives and have grown up to believe a certain thing. We have the Westboro Baptist Church as an example. We shouldn't mimic their mentality - it's dangerous.

Yes, nicely put. God swt has chosen all of us to be individuals - I mean when we think about it a bit, what makes us an individual? Our experiences or more than that? Our souls, that Allah swt created from one soul but then made us each distinct individuals. This fits well into the way that the Quran allows for flexibility such as with salat, even zakat that allows us all to express our individuality and meet our individual needs in the way that God would guide us to
We definitely do not want to mimic anything fundamentalist. Fundamentalists exist in all groups, even the ones that can be open to everyone. It's a human thing rather than purely out of religion or a type of religion, ideology etc.

I think that within the next few months, I will eventually tell my parents that I do not necessarily share their same view on the religion. I think that I am still muslim too. I just have to work on convincing my parents of that. I don't wish to change their beliefs, but I do want them to be comfortable with mine.

If I may give some advice, I would say be as diplomatic as possible. You may be anyway, but just add a general point that, one way to put it and the way I see it, it's not that anyone following hadith is somehow automatically wrong - as they may follow it partially in a way that pleases Allah swt, but that this is the guidance you believe your Lord has guided you towards, including some verses perhaps to back up what you say. Well, that's some of the way in which I would put it.

I'd rather be controlled by a merciful lord than a wrathful one. I believe that my god is indeed merciful.

Our Lord is indeed the Most Merciful.

Well if anything, I hope that god can see that I'm putting forth some good effort to understand him. I will not abandon him out of weakness, inability to understand, or out of my disagreement with the interpretation of others. I will find my own path to god.

I actually believe that Allah would like to see our sincerity and that we at least try. The verse where it mentions that God answers the call of the supplicant - which is anyone, not just a set group of people - and from what I recall, it says then let them try to take heed to Allah's call. It doesn't demand, it says try and with some effort. I feel this is a very gentle way to put it. So, in my opinion for what its worth, what you are doing seems to fit this verse exactly.

zone

Salaam. Who i am and where i am is not important in the current situation where satan and their followers are dominant in this world. What i am is. I started as a path seeker looking for answers to many questions concerning God, religion, truth and righteousness. I am now Allah alone and Quran alone believer. I have been following Freeminds since its inception. For you who seek guidance keep asking. Go on questioning. Anything. Till you discover Allah and the miracle of His words (ayats).

youssef4342

Please look into

7 "Hells", 2 Heavens, and a "Purgatory"
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9603259.0

Farabi

Believe or not Hell and Heaven if it is invented by human, it is a greates invention I ever see. Have a look at religion who believe on hell and heaven, they had a lots of people who follow it blindly. Christian and Islam is the biggest religion on the world, and they believe on hell and heaven. I hope religions truly invented by people like budist not try to follow and invent such a thing because they did not know the side effect of it. it is the source of war if not handled with care.

unknownuser

These questions are excellent, and I hope I can provide some insight with my own personal reflections that I have developed over time pondering the same ideas.

Firstly, as you stated, God does not need us. This is absolutely correct. It is the reverse direction which is key we need God. If we place a human personality to God, in the Qur'an, it would seem as if he is an arrogant god. However, we cannot fall into the trap of placing human characteristics on the entity we call God. Since He does not need us, why would He be so strict in us worshiping Him? This question is probably answered in greater detail by others, but short answer is, the Creator knows best how we function as human beings. Through worship of the one God, we open up the path to adherence. If we do not strictly adhere to the belief in the one God, how will we take Him seriously? We may then begin to live life how we choose to live it, and clearly, when we follow a sort of anarchy, we are prone to falling to our weaknesses as human beings - temptation, recklessness, corruption, etc. etc.

God has placed for us a set of guides which can help us achieve a peaceful life. However, how can we adhere to these rules with discipline if we do not meet the fundamental prerequisite (faith in the one God)? Many rules in these systems of faith are, on face value, undesirable. Some go against our nature, even our biological tendencies, so without a Greater Order, we increase the risk of falling into the traps of our own fallacies.

Now, with respect to your excellent points about eternal damnation, this is where even my fellow brothers and sisters here may disagree. I also do not have a complete knowledge of Qur'an so I also wish to bring up points for investigation and discussion.

Firstly, let me open up with a verse from Al Qur'an which I want you to keep in mind for the following points I will make

262 Surely those who believe; and those who are Jewish, and the Nazarenes, and the Sabians, whoever of them believes in God and the Last Day and does good works; they will have their recompense with their Lord, and there is no fear upon them, nor will they grieve.

You stated that there are 1 billion muslims in this world. I agree and disagree - I believe there are about 1 billion people in this world who live under the label as muslim, while I believe there are even more than 1 billion people who are muslim without using this particular Arabic label. Let's remember to distinguish between label and content - this is very difficult to do. Defined, a muslim is simply "one who submits his will peacefully to the one God." Keeping mind 262, we must realize that these labels are were the confusion resides. In my eyes, many muslims are muslims, many sikhs are muslims, many christians are muslims, many jews are muslims, many hindus are muslims, etc. etc. I think you see where I am getting at now. According to Allah, the key is belief in one God, in good deeds, and the final day.

Now, what about those who do not believe in God? Well this is something I am researching and I want to bring up a tentative hypothesis I have here

In the Qur'an, a "disbeliever" is defined quite overtly as one who rejects God. In this way, agnostics are not necessarily disbelievers. It is true that those who do not believe in God will not be included in the Hereafter, but I have yet to find a verse in the Qur'an that states that people who do good things but are undecided on God's existence will go to hell.

I always believed that all human beings will either go to heaven or hell, but perhaps there is a third alternative. Perhaps the good-doers who were unsure simply are not admitted to heaven. At the same time, perhaps they are not admitted to hell neither. Perhaps they receive neither....

I hope I have answered some of your questions while bringing up food for thought on others. I could have been more eloquent but my mind often strays.

Peace be with you.

Man_of_Faith

Peace ajiboghareb,

I have about the same mindset as you and I do not object to what you wrote.

The only small input I wanted to add was about disbelievers. Your definition does not entirely seem to fit God's idea of a disbeliever in Quran.

A disbeliever is an enemy of God and will often do things against purity and peace, meaning they are anti-islam (anti-peace). They can be a lot of different people, the punk rocker teenage rebel, hooligans, cursing and swearing construction worker and many more typical person who often makes fun of God and jokes about those who believe, but they can also be hypocrites. Hypocrites are worse, because they believe they are guided but they are not. They are disbelievers even if they claim to be believers and they live in a delusion.

On the other hand, a muslim does not have to be a believer. Anyone who struggles to spread peace and prosperity is a muslim.

When Faith has entered the heart of a muslim then he is a Believer (called mu'meen). Simply following the righteous path, most will calm down and increase their spirituality and thus start to accumulate Faith.

Of course he never stops being a muslim, because that characterizes the whole creed of peace and prosperity as I mentioned above. The work to spread peace with both yourself and your neighbors is the meaning of being in islam. You can see it even through the greeting "Peace!" ( salaam). Of course, many are oblivious of why they say in the first place. It is because whole their encounter with all neighbors and relatives should be in islam. All should be done in the most peaceful manner with no loud voices or bad language or aggression, and any other common human misbehavior.

If you consider the above, you can see that many people who do not have Faith at heart may be regarded as muslims. If they have a good behavior and work hard on being polite and all that they fulfil the muslim part of islam. Faith in God is another story. However, even many of those who say they adhere to a religion are not truly faithful.

The muslim part of Faith can be said is one-third of it. Two-thirds are God and to believe in the Hour/eternal life. They go hand in hand these part and one cannot be left out.

To say; "I want to believe!", is a good start, but instead of UFOs and aliens take it as God and say it.

As usual I talk too much. Hope some of it was interesting at least. Follow the best and ignore the rest.

God bless you

unknownuser