Circumcision: The Way of Prophet Abraham
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Israfeel.
Your arguments are flawed since
Jews also practice circumcision and they do it also today.
Jews believe that the children of Israel were ordered this practice in order to set them apart from pagans. However, children of Israel don't exist anymore.
But you should really be aware, that most people on this site believes in the Quran and since Quran has not ordered circumcision then it is not compulsory. Some would even say that circumcision is abuse while others would say its a matter of choice.
You are welcome to post some evidence for circumcision to be essential for cleanliness instead of just making a claim. I live in a Western Country and I never saw someone dying of cancer or being unclean because they don't practice circumcision. So come with your proof and then we can talk about it.
Peace
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Israfeel.
Your arguments are flawed since
Jews also practice circumcision and they do it also today.
Jews believe that the children of Israel were ordered this practice in order to set them apart from pagans. However, children of Israel don't exist anymore.
But you should really be aware, that most people on this site believes in the Quran and since Quran has not ordered circumcision then it is not compulsory. Some would even say that circumcision is abuse while others would say its a matter of choice.
You are welcome to post some evidence for circumcision to be essential for cleanliness instead of just making a claim. I live in a Western Country and I never saw someone dying of cancer or being unclean because they don't practice circumcision. So come with your proof and then we can talk about it.
Peace
Let me answer point by point.
Circumcision is from the Covenant of Abraham, has nothing to do with Jews. In fact all three religions (Islam, Christianity, and Judaism) recognize that Prophet Abraham peace be upon him is the first to institute the practice of circumcision, and this practice is what distinguishes his followers from all the other pagan religions, atheists, and of course, Sunnah rejectors.
See what I wrote before how the Pure Quran mandates circumcision. As far as circumcision being healthy or necessary for hygiene, ask any medical expert and he will tell you.
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Peace,
Circumcision is just a fake rule. It originates from the passages of the Old Testament. Being circumcised means minimal benefits and a lot of disadvantages. The only benefit I think of is that it may be easier to clean yourself after a toilet visit, but otherwise you have cut off a part of the bodily defense. Yes, the foreskin is there for a reason, God created it that way or else He would not have placed it there in the first place if it was to be surgically removed. The pleasure while in intercourse is also adversely affected.
Removing the foreskin is a very painful process even while sedated and I can guess what an experience it would have been for the alleged removal of Ibrahim's foreskin in adult age according to the Old Testament. Probably this procedure is rather a lie since I doubt God would order everyone to surgically remove their foreskin. Maybe it is an error in the translation.
Circumcision is not mentioned even once in Quran. And was it that important the Quran would have mentioned it or at least hinted at it.
Go against the practices of Ibrahim or Muhammad? The only scriptural evidence is from the Bible. Is that a reliable source when it comes to such drastical procedures?
And please do not mention hadith, because that is just not a viable source of information.
It seems against all logic to surgically remove something.
God bless you
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Peace,
Circumcision is just a fake rule. It originates from the passages of the Old Testament. Being circumcised means minimal benefits and a lot of disadvantages. The only benefit I think of is that it may be easier to clean yourself after a toilet visit, but otherwise you have cut off a part of the bodily defense. Yes, the foreskin is there for a reason, God created it that way or else He would not have placed it there in the first place if it was to be surgically removed. The pleasure while in intercourse is also adversely affected.
Removing the foreskin is a very painful process even while sedated and I can guess what an experience it would have been for the alleged removal of Ibrahim's foreskin in adult age according to the Old Testament. Probably this procedure is rather a lie since I doubt God would order everyone to surgically remove their foreskin. Maybe it is an error in the translation.
Circumcision is not mentioned even once in Quran. And was it that important the Quran would have mentioned it or at least hinted at it.
Go against the practices of Ibrahim or Muhammad? The only scriptural evidence is from the Bible. Is that a reliable source when it comes to such drastical procedures?
And please do not mention hadith, because that is just not a viable source of information.
It seems against all logic to surgically remove something.
God bless you
For me the Hadith is just as viable a source of information as the Holy Quran. But since you reject the Hadith and you want to know if the Quran mentions circumcision or even hints at it. The answer is yes indeed circumcision is proven from the Quran. Many times the Quran says to follow the religion and ways of Prophet Abraham. In one place it says
You have a good example to follow in Abraham and those who are with him (Surah 605)
Now the question is that is it proven historically that circumcision is from the covenant of Abraham. Both the Torah and also the Hadith proves historically that Prophet Abraham was circumcised on commandment of Allah Azza wa Gall at the age of 80 years. True this is not directly mentioned in Quran, but neither it is denied.
And everyone from the Christians Jews and Muslims accept this historical fact, except for Hadith rejectors. This proves that Hadith rejectors have turned away from the Way of Abraham.
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Also, I would like to quote this Ayah
Verily Allah loves the Repentant and loves the purified (Surah 2223)
'Mutatahhireen' is not only those who are spiritually pure, but also physically pure. From the physical purity of a man is that he is circumcised, as the Prophet Sallallaahu alayhi wasallam said that from the characteristics of purity is to circumcise, to trim the nails, to remove the pubic hair, to remove the armpit hair, to trim the mustache. Now just because these things are not directly mentioned in the Holy Quran does not mean that a person won't be sinful if he doesn't do them. These items are essential for outward as well as inward purity, because Allah loves the purified, meaning He hates the unclean.
Sunnah rejectors are showing that their religion does not at all value outward purity, only inward purity. But we know from the Holy Quran that inner purity and outward purity are strongly related, and you can't have one without the other.
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@Israfeel You meant 604 and 2222, I assume
Why would you cut out the rest of 604 like that?
"There has already been for you an excellent pattern in Abraham and those with him, when they said to their people, "Indeed, we are disassociated from you and from whatever you worship other than Allah . We have denied you, and there has appeared between us and you animosity and hatred forever until you believe in Allah alone" except for the saying of Abraham to his father, "I will surely ask forgiveness for you, but I have not for you anything against Allah . Our Lord, upon You we have relied, and to You we have returned, and to You is the destination." (Sahih International)It's all one line, if you ignore everything but the very first part then of course you can open it up to anything Abraham (pbuh) allegedly did. But it defines what it means when it talks about following his example, doesn't it?
You did the same thing with 2222, this time only quoting the end of the line
"And they ask you about menstruation. Say, "It is harm, so keep away from wives during menstruation. And do not approach them until they are pure. And when they have purified themselves, then come to them from where Allah has ordained for you. Indeed, Allah loves those who are constantly repentant and loves those who purify themselves." (Sahih International)The surrounding verses are relevent here but long story short, it's talking very specifically about women during the menstruation period...right?
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@Israfeel You meant 604 and 2222, I assume
Why would you cut out the rest of 604 like that?
"There has already been for you an excellent pattern in Abraham and those with him, when they said to their people, "Indeed, we are disassociated from you and from whatever you worship other than Allah . We have denied you, and there has appeared between us and you animosity and hatred forever until you believe in Allah alone" except for the saying of Abraham to his father, "I will surely ask forgiveness for you, but I have not for you anything against Allah . Our Lord, upon You we have relied, and to You we have returned, and to You is the destination." (Sahih International)It's all one line, if you ignore everything but the very first part then of course you can open it up to anything Abraham (pbuh) allegedly did. But it defines what it means when it talks about following his example, doesn't it?
You did the same thing with 2222, this time only quoting the end of the line
"And they ask you about menstruation. Say, "It is harm, so keep away from wives during menstruation. And do not approach them until they are pure. And when they have purified themselves, then come to them from where Allah has ordained for you. Indeed, Allah loves those who are constantly repentant and loves those who purify themselves." (Sahih International)The surrounding verses are relevent here but long story short, it's talking very specifically about women during the menstruation period...right?
Both of these verses state general principles, "Abraham is a beautiful example to follow", and "Allah loves those who are purified". To say that these statements are only restricted to the examples mentioned in those verses is an incorrect understanding.
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I also find it interesting that in the Pure Quran menstruation is referred to as 'Adha' a harmful thing requiring purification, because in the Hadith our beloved Prophet Sallallaahu alayhi wasallam has referred to the foreskin as and must be removed because it is impure, just like menstruation is impure
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Nowhere does the Qur'an say that Ibrahim had to circumcise or was circumcised.
Salaam
Nowhere does it say he was uncircumcised.
To not be circumcised its already proven to be impure and unclean. The Quran says that Allah loves those who are purified (Surah 2223)
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Following Abraham (pbuh) and maintaining physicial & spiritual purity are general principles, yes. For those two lines you mentioned though, I feel the "definitions" given are extremely important to the stated principles though - they wouldn't be in the same line if they weren't. Even so, the Quran goes at length to discuss following Abraham (pbuh) and purity and something as supposedly vital as circumcision to not be mentioned in the Quran. I know what you're thinking here, the hadith, but there's more to my thoughts on this than just that.
lines 326-9
"That is the Knower of the unseen and the witnessed, the Exalted in Might, the Merciful"
"Who perfected everything which He created and began the creation of man from clay."
"Then He made his posterity out of the extract of a liquid disdained."
"Then He proportioned him and breathed into him from His soul and made for you hearing and vision and hearts; little are you grateful."
(Sahih International)Wording varies a bit depending on the translation but you sound like you know arabic, you should know that "proportioned" is pretty much spot-on here. When talking about creating the proportions of man, why were we created uncircumsized? If we are supposed to circumsize ourselves, why not mention this as a responsibility in the Quran? Circumcision is an act that requires expertise, it isn't a basic act of cleanliness that can simply be picked up through common sense.
honestly, imo circumcision is a bit of a minor issue really, even in regards to cleanliness. I know you'll disagree with me on this, but I just can't help but be kinda indifferent on it - as I was circumcized shortly after being born myself. The Quran doesn't directly mention to it though and it seems like the sorta thing touched upon in 548
"And We have revealed to you, , the Book in truth, confirming that which preceded it of the Scripture and as a criterion over it. So judge between them by what Allah has revealed and do not follow their inclinations away from what has come to you of the truth. To each of you We prescribed a law and a method. Had Allah willed, He would have made you one nation , but to test you in what He has given you; so race to good. To Allah is your return all together, and He will inform you concerning that over which you used to differ."
(Sahih International)ie likely a product of man-made law. To my knowledge, there is no concrete evidence that a circumsized person is physicaly cleaner than an uncircumsized one. There are studies but different studies have reached different results and there is no hard conclusion on the matter yet. Because of that, I just see it as sorta irrelevant to the faith really. But someone being circumcized wouldn't be damned in any way, from what I understand.
Within the context of 2222 + it's surrounding verses it should be pretty obvious why menstruation is referred to as harmful. The hadith you mentioned doesn't seem overtly interesting to me, it seems like common-sense that foreskin would be referred to like that within the context of saying you have to remove it for the sake of purity.
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As to the question why circumcision is not directly detailed in the Quran, I find it interesting that Mr. Rashad Khalifa gave the same answer as me with regard to the details of Salat not being detailed in Quran. The submission.org website says
As far as all of our rites, Quran only dealt with whatever got altered since Abraham such as the tone of our prayer (17110), the basic steps of ablution (56), the times of our five daily contact prayers, the command of giving the utmost importance to the Friday Congregational Prayer (629), allowing sexual relationship with our spouses during the nights of Ramadan (2187), whatever is mentioned in regard of Hajj and Umrah, and whatever is mentioned in regard of our Zakat, with the highlight that it is due whenever we collect or receive our income (6141). Anything in regard of our rituals that is not detailed in Quran has been already preserved by God and passed down correctly and this is basically why it is not detailed in Quran.
In other words, Mr. Rashad Khalifa and his followers are saying that the details of Salat do not have to be given in Quran because these were originally practiced by Abraham and passed down for centuries.
Similarly I say that the practice of circumcision originates from Abraham and has been passed down for centuries, this why according to Submission.org's own principle "anything in regard to our rituals that is not detailed in Quran has been already preserved by God and passed down correctly and this is basically why it is not detailed in Quran".
Secondly you ask the question "why were we created uncircumcised?" My counter question is "why were we created naked?" If Allah created us naked then why should we put on clothes? You will say because Allah also created us with the sense of shame and with the ability to create clothes and with the desire to beautify ourselves through clothing. My answer is the same for circumcision, Allah created us with the desire to be clean, and so gave us the divine knowledge how to circumcise.
Some people follow a sort of 'naturalist' philosophy like the Sikhs who say we should not do anything to our bodies. They even go to the extreme of not cutting a single hair from their body and they justify this by saying "God created us in this way...scissors is a manmade invention." Of course we Muslims do not subscribe to this bizarre philosophy. Yes God gave us hair, but He also created the scissors so we can cut it when it gets too long.
I hope this has helped to convince you that not only is circumcision necessary, it is mandated by Islam from Quran and Hadith.
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Like I said, circumcision hasn't been proven to make one cleaner yet - and then there's the whole argument about the risks of circumcision. It might make one cleaner, it may also be a result of the "law" mentioned in 548.
Your clothing point is interesting though. At this moment in time I genuinely have no answer for that.
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Bismillaahir Rahmaanir Raheem
Recently I heard comments from one "Yousef Abdellah", a Sunnah-rejector who said that circumcision is against the Pure Quran. It came to my attention that Sunnah-rejectors do not practice male circumcision and therefore they are going against the way of the Prophets beginning with our Father Prophet Ebrahim peace be upon him.
I think both you and "Yousef Abdullah" are mistaken, feel free to circumcise or not circumcise, it's not even being mentioned in the Quran.
Circumcision is the practice of Believers which sets them apart from pagans.
You must be joking!
The difference between "believers" and "pagans" lies upon their GENITAL???
As you know apart from Muslims virtually no other religion practices circumcision.
Circumcision is widely practiced by semitic people, including but not limited to Arabs, Jews, Syrians, Egyptians, Ethiopians..
And some of them does worship idols (in one way or another)And now medically it is proven to be essential for cleanliness and preventing diseases like cancer.
Really? Can you provide the reference of the research?
As a Muslim who follows the Sunnah and Hadith, I believe that circumcision is a commandment of Allah Tabarrak wa Taala.
You are free to believe whatever you want.. cutting or not cutting the foreskin of your genital doesn't really matter anyway..
My question to the Sunnah rejectors and other people who do not practice circumcision is why do you go against the practice of the great Prophets like Ebrahim and Mohammad peace be upon them?
First thing first, I am circumcised, yet I don't see that such practice are essential in order for one to live a good life or be a good person.
I think you should ponder more on the issue...
Salam / Peace
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So what you are saying is God created something that is unclean. All men are created by God unclean. Some boys cannot have circumcision because of conditions like hypospadias and so these men will be unclean and cannot be believers because of how God created them? Is this what you are saying?
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So what you are saying is God created something that is unclean. All men are created by God unclean. Some boys cannot have circumcision because of conditions like hypospadias and so these men will be unclean and cannot be believers because of how God created them? Is this what you are saying?
good point bravo
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As far as circumcision being healthy or necessary for hygiene, ask any medical expert and he will tell you.
What medical expert?
Can you please explain how foreskin is unhealthy and unclean?
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Shalom Aleikhem,
Although virtually all of your posts are heavily dependent on logical fallacies, I would like to focus on one of your claims
Nowhere does it say he was uncircumcised.
To not be circumcised its already proven to be impure and unclean. The Quran says that Allah loves those who are purified (Surah 2223)
- Can you actually prove that?
- If you can not, do you have the intellectual honesty to retract that statement?
Peace
---------------- Student of Allah -
A debate thread again? You bring up the old topic Israfeel.
Peace ahlan Israfeel, before you started this topic, it's better you use search tool then you can find some discussions about "circumcision" before.
or if you won't do it, just read articles on this http//www.quranicpath.com/misconceptions/circumcision.html
http//www.quranicpath.com/misconceptions/intact_sex.htmlI know you're a Sunnah waljama'ah and its pointless if you debate with us especially about khitan, because Sunni and Quran alone theologies and fiqh are different.
Example You tafseer the Quran by using hadiths like you tafseer verse 2223 as commandment for khitan while Quran aloners is not.
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Peace,
Follow the example of Ibrahim. This verse does not hint at circumcision at all. The good example of Ibrahim is to be a devoted servant of God.
And circumcision brings negative adverse effects on the nerve cells of those who went through the procedure, like me. Like I said, the only positive effect of the whole thing has been that I do not have to touch "it" when I go to the bathroom.
Still, when I did it in the past I touched the foreskin only so no problem in that.
And having it on does not mean that you are impure. We were created with the foreskin and it does have a bodily function, ask an independent physician. It has its own ability to keep itself clean, but this function is lost when you carve it off.
Normal hygiene keeps it clean.
How would you explain the internals of a female? Are they also "impure" since they cannot remove any tissue so the organs "dry up"? Their urinary tract works somewhat like a male's except theirs is on the inside instead of outside. Removing the foreskin is to disable the normal bodily function. The fluids which are on the penis are there to protect it and not because it is impure, just like those inside the female. They disappear when you remove the foreskin leaving it fully exposed.
I am sure circumcision is an invented religious procedure because of man-made ideas. Not once does the Quran even hint slightly at it. If it was existent God would have mentioned it in His book.
God bless you