Circumcision: The Way of Prophet Abraham
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So what you are saying is God created something that is unclean. All men are created by God unclean. Some boys cannot have circumcision because of conditions like hypospadias and so these men will be unclean and cannot be believers because of how God created them? Is this what you are saying?
good point bravo
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As far as circumcision being healthy or necessary for hygiene, ask any medical expert and he will tell you.
What medical expert?
Can you please explain how foreskin is unhealthy and unclean?
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Shalom Aleikhem,
Although virtually all of your posts are heavily dependent on logical fallacies, I would like to focus on one of your claims
Nowhere does it say he was uncircumcised.
To not be circumcised its already proven to be impure and unclean. The Quran says that Allah loves those who are purified (Surah 2223)
- Can you actually prove that?
- If you can not, do you have the intellectual honesty to retract that statement?
Peace
---------------- Student of Allah -
A debate thread again? You bring up the old topic Israfeel.
Peace ahlan Israfeel, before you started this topic, it's better you use search tool then you can find some discussions about "circumcision" before.
or if you won't do it, just read articles on this http//www.quranicpath.com/misconceptions/circumcision.html
http//www.quranicpath.com/misconceptions/intact_sex.htmlI know you're a Sunnah waljama'ah and its pointless if you debate with us especially about khitan, because Sunni and Quran alone theologies and fiqh are different.
Example You tafseer the Quran by using hadiths like you tafseer verse 2223 as commandment for khitan while Quran aloners is not.
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Peace,
Follow the example of Ibrahim. This verse does not hint at circumcision at all. The good example of Ibrahim is to be a devoted servant of God.
And circumcision brings negative adverse effects on the nerve cells of those who went through the procedure, like me. Like I said, the only positive effect of the whole thing has been that I do not have to touch "it" when I go to the bathroom.
Still, when I did it in the past I touched the foreskin only so no problem in that.
And having it on does not mean that you are impure. We were created with the foreskin and it does have a bodily function, ask an independent physician. It has its own ability to keep itself clean, but this function is lost when you carve it off.
Normal hygiene keeps it clean.
How would you explain the internals of a female? Are they also "impure" since they cannot remove any tissue so the organs "dry up"? Their urinary tract works somewhat like a male's except theirs is on the inside instead of outside. Removing the foreskin is to disable the normal bodily function. The fluids which are on the penis are there to protect it and not because it is impure, just like those inside the female. They disappear when you remove the foreskin leaving it fully exposed.
I am sure circumcision is an invented religious procedure because of man-made ideas. Not once does the Quran even hint slightly at it. If it was existent God would have mentioned it in His book.
God bless you
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Having read many of your replies, it seems the overwhelming objection to me is to provide some reference that circumcision is necessary for cleanliness.
Please read this article from the New York Times titled 'Benefits of Circumcision Are Said to Outweigh Risks'.
http//www.nytimes.com/2012/08/27/science/benefits-of-circumcision-outweigh-risks-pediatric-group-says.html?_r=0The American Academy of Pediatrics has shifted its stance on infant male circumcision, announcing on Monday that new research, including studies in Africa suggesting that the procedure may protect heterosexual men against H.I.V., indicated that the health benefits outweighed the risks.
So yes, it is medically proven that circumcision is necessary and highly recommended by non-Muslim American Academy of Pediatrics for reducing likelihood of such diseases as HIV, urinary tract infection, etc.
However, as Muslims, we our primary concern is that circumcision is the Sunnah of Prophet Ebrahim peace be upon him and all the prophets after him. The medical benefits are only icing on the cake.
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I'd also like to add that among adult males, there is a growing demand for circumcision. Many of them are literally in waiting lines to get circumcised and willing to pay a hefty price in thousands of dollars for the simple procedure.
On the other hand we Muslims are circumcised on the seventh day after being born for free. Isn't that a great advantage? People say circumcision is very painful. However, since I was circumcised as a baby I have absolutely no memory of it - therefore no trauma.
Now my point is simple. Since Sunnah rejectors do not practice circumcision and do not consider it sinful to be uncircumcised, they are going against the Quran when it says "Allah loves those who are repentant and He loves those who are purified". Based on this we can conclude that Sunnah rejectors are not included in the Al-Mutatahhireen (those who are purified).
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Here is what the American academy of pediatrics says
After a comprehensive review of the scientific evidence, the American Academy of Pediatrics found the health benefits of newborn male circumcision outweigh the risks, but the benefits are not great enough to recommend universal newborn circumcision. The AAP policy statement published Monday, August 27, says the final decision should still be left to parents to make in the context of their religious, ethical and cultural beliefs.
And the American Academy of Family Practice
Considerable controversy surrounds neonatal circumcision. Putative indications for neonatal circumcision have included preventing UTIs and their sequelae, preventing the contraction of STDs including HIV, and preventing penile cancer as well as other reasons for adult circumcision. Circumcision is not without risks. Bleeding, infection, and failure to remove enough foreskin occur in less than 1% of circumcisions. Evidence-based complications from circumcision include pain, bruising, and meatitis. More serious complications have also occurred. Although numerous studies have been conducted to evaluate these postulates, only a few used the quality of methodology necessary to consider the results as high level evidence.
The evidence indicates that neonatal circumcision prevents UTIs in the first year of life with an absolute risk reduction of about 1% and prevents the development of penile cancer with an absolute risk reduction of less than 0.2%. The evidence suggests that circumcision reduces the rate of acquiring an STD, but careful sexual prac tices and hygiene may be as effective. Circumcision appears to decrease the transmission of HIV in underdeveloped areas where the virus is highly prevalent. No study has systematically evaluated the utility of routine neonatal circumcision for preventing all medically-indicated circumcisions in later life. Evidence regarding the association between cervical cancer and a woman?s partner being circumcised or uncircumcised, and evidence regarding the effect of circumcision on sexual functioning is inconclusive. If the decision is made to circumcise, anesthesia should be used.
The American Academy of Family Physicians recommends physicians discuss the potential harms and benefits of circumcision with all parents or legal guardians considering this procedure for their newborn son. (2001)
You can read the full article at http//www.aafp.org/patient-care/clinical-recommendations/all/circumcision.html
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So yes, it is medically proven that circumcision is necessary and highly recommended by non-Muslim American Academy of Pediatrics for reducing likelihood of such diseases as HIV, urinary tract infection, etc.
I suggest that you read the position statements on circumcision by the American academy of pediatrics and American academy of family practice.
No, circumcision is NOT highly recommended by medical doctors.
I suggest that you read about who gets STD. What are the likelihood of uncircumcised men who have only one lifetime sexual partner of getting HIV, cervical cancer and such? A virgin man marries a virgin woman is not getting HIV. So if you really want to reduce the likelihood of HIV, then follow God's guidance and not fornicate having multiple sexual partners.
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Here are a few questions I have for Hadith rejectors who say that since circumcision is not mentioned in the Quran, it is not necessary
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Going by this line of reasoning, removal of pubic hair, armpit hair, and trimming of fingernails and toenails when they become long or dirty are not mentioned in the Holy Quran either. Therefore, according to Hadith rejectors, will such people who do not remove pubic hair, armpit hair, nails, etc., be considered as sinful or not? Western and non-Muslim people do not remove pubic hair/armpit hair, do Hadith rejectors follow their culture also since it is not forbidden in Quran?
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Nowhere in the Quran does it say that urine, stool, maniyy, madhiyy (seminal fluid), vomit, is impure. According to Hadith-rejectors will a person be sinful if he does not wash off these things from his body or clothes?
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According to Hadith-rejectors, will a person be sinful for (God forbid) drinking these things which are not explicitly declared impure in the Quran, as this is the culture of many Westerners/non-Muslims?
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According to the Quran, the meat of swine is forbidden, but nowhere in the Quran does it say that the perspiration or saliva of swine, or any other animal for that matter, is impure. If these things get onto the clothes or body of a Hadith-rejector, will he be sinful for not washing them off, or praying while traces of a pig's saliva or perspiration is on his body and/or clothes?
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Nowhere in the Quran does it say that urine, dung, or seminal fluid of any animal is impure. Are these things halal for Hadith-rejectors, and will a Hadith rejector be sinful for touching, drinking, or not removing these traces from his body and clothes?
If you reject circumcision and say it is not mentioned in the Quran, then how will you answer the above five questions?
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Wa alaykum as salaam
We the Muslims, or at least those Muslims who follow the Sunnah.
Salaamun alayka,
That's a big relief, because as far as I know, you (= Muslims who follow the Sunnah) are not the ones who judges who is of Al-Mutatahhireen and who not.
Salaam,
Bender -
Salam Israfeel,
Circumcision is not discussed in the Quran as far as I am aware.
In regards to Ahadith, yes it is mentioned however it is a Sunnah and different schools of thoughts have different rulings on the matter.
A circumcised man is generally preferred over a non circumcised man however, it is not a fard i.e Hanafi and Malaki school of thought do not believe it is a fard.
Parents make their own decisions about their children's health and body well being (including circumcision).
There is information for and against circumcision and one shouldn't just blindly adhere to decisions because of social practises.
BTW 2223 doesn't mention anything about God loving the purified. I guess you meant 2222. However you're correlating different topics. Moreover, the hadiths I have read on circumcision talk about fitra not tahara that's two different things, though my knowledge on the matter is limited and maybe you know otherwise?
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Salam Israfeel,
Circumcision is not discussed in the Quran as far as I am aware.
In regards to Ahadith, yes it is mentioned however it is a Sunnah and different schools of thoughts have different rulings on the matter.
A circumcised man is generally preferred over a non circumcised man however, it is not a fard i.e Hanafi and Malaki school of thought do not believe it is a fard.
Parents make their own decisions about their children's health and body well being (including circumcision).
There is information for and against circumcision and one shouldn't just blindly adhere to decisions because of social practises.
BTW 2223 doesn't mention anything about God loving the purified. I guess you meant 2222. However you're correlating different topics. Moreover, the hadiths I have read on circumcision talk about fitra not tahara that's two different things, though my knowledge on the matter is limited and maybe you know otherwise?
Thanks for your response. I do not believe in Hanafi or Maliki schools of thought. As a follower of Hadith, I believe circumcision is fard, as this is very clear from the Ahadith of our Prophet peace be upon him as recorded in the Bukhari Sharif.
Also I do mean 2223 since I believe that Bismillah is an Ayah of the Quran, and therefore the correct ayah number is 2223
Fitrah means what is natural, and what Allah created as our natural disposition. Therefore isn't taharah (purity) part of man's nature? Doesn't a baby naturally cry when he has a dirty diaper? This is from the Fitra to be clean and pure, and this is why circumcision is part of the fitrah.
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No problem.
Regardless of what scholar or scholarly knowledge you follow you claim to follow the sunnah as do they (Hanafi and Malaki) yet they have different conclusions than you. This shows how you (and they) view, accept or interpret hadith is subjective. Unless you know of a none faulty methodology you'd like to share? if so, please let me know. However, if it is just following Bukhari Sharif, I'd advise you research a bit more about Imam Bukhari before accepting all his hadiths as infallible sources. Also care to share the hadith?
Following an unconventional number format based on including bismillah can mislead or confuse people. So thanks for clarifying however you do understand it can confuse people?? so maybe in future you could mention including bismillah in the count.
Define natural disposition? if a child is born with 6 toes on 1 foot is that a natural disposition?
Being born with foreskin doesn't make you unnatural.
A baby does not naturally cry when s/he has a dirty diaper. Children have different temperaments some children cry because of a dirty diaper others do not. According to your logic all babies should cry until they are circumcised (sounds silly right)
Fitrah can refer to what is natural, can refer to instincts and inbuilt dispositions.
Tahara is a conditioned act, For example tahara isn't simply about being "CLEAN" take for example 9103 in which giving wealth is tahara.
There are many forms of purity but I believe your focus is on cleanliness. Cleanliness isn't part of mans nature but part of social practices, it is a learnt habit.
Tahara and Fitra are different.
If you believe circumcision is part of being clean based on your research, that's fine that's your choice but I doubt you'd convince everyone and you can't really make it an obligation or prohibition as Allah swt is the law maker.
I hope that makes sense
Salam.
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Here are a few questions I have for Hadith rejectors who say that since circumcision is not mentioned in the Quran, it is not necessary
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Going by this line of reasoning, removal of pubic hair, armpit hair, and trimming of fingernails and toenails when they become long or dirty are not mentioned in the Holy Quran either. Therefore, according to Hadith rejectors, will such people who do not remove pubic hair, armpit hair, nails, etc., be considered as sinful or not? Western and non-Muslim people do not remove pubic hair/armpit hair, do Hadith rejectors follow their culture also since it is not forbidden in Quran?
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Nowhere in the Quran does it say that urine, stool, maniyy, madhiyy (seminal fluid), vomit, is impure. According to Hadith-rejectors will a person be sinful if he does not wash off these things from his body or clothes?
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According to Hadith-rejectors, will a person be sinful for (God forbid) drinking these things which are not explicitly declared impure in the Quran, as this is the culture of many Westerners/non-Muslims?
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According to the Quran, the meat of swine is forbidden, but nowhere in the Quran does it say that the perspiration or saliva of swine, or any other animal for that matter, is impure. If these things get onto the clothes or body of a Hadith-rejector, will he be sinful for not washing them off, or praying while traces of a pig's saliva or perspiration is on his body and/or clothes?
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Nowhere in the Quran does it say that urine, dung, or seminal fluid of any animal is impure. Are these things halal for Hadith-rejectors, and will a Hadith rejector be sinful for touching, drinking, or not removing these traces from his body and clothes?
If you reject circumcision and say it is not mentioned in the Quran, then how will you answer the above five questions?
(1) All those can attract and maintain dirt on the body. You have already said earlier what the Quran says about physical purity.
(4) The previous point still applies...furthermore, we are to strive to keep our clothes as clean as we can
"And your clothing purify"
"And uncleanliness avoid"
(Sahih International)
If for some reason you're covered in animal sweat the normal thing to do would be to want to wash yourself and your clothes, I assume (more on this line of thinking at the end of the post)2, 3, 5 are similar points so I'll try to tackle them together if you don't mind. Firstly and briefly, see 1666
"And indeed, for you in grazing livestock is a lesson. We give you drink from what is in their bellies - between excretion and blood - pure milk, palatable to drinkers."
(Sahih International) (stress added by myself)Moving towards a more general principle on the matter
"O mankind, eat from whatever is on earth lawful and good and do not follow the footsteps of Satan. Indeed, he is to you a clear enemy."
"O you who have believed, do not prohibit the good things which Allah has made lawful to you and do not transgress. Indeed, Allah does not like transgressors."
(Sahih International) (stress on 2168 added by myself)
"lawful and good"? The word used, tayyiban, means good/pure. Obviously, what is lawful may not be good/pure ie it may not be clean or something, and vice versa. But there is a distinction to be made between something being unlawful to eat and something being impure, hence why they were seperated out, right? Tying into my point regarding (4) we have common sense. The Quran promotes logic and the use of reason, I doubt you would disagree with this notion. Notably
"He gives wisdom to whom He wills, and whoever has been given wisdom has certainly been given much good. And none will remember except those of understanding."
"Indeed, the worst of living creatures in the sight of Allah are the deaf and dumb who do not use reason."
(Sahih International)
With this is mind...frankly, I would argue that, along the same lines of circumcision, if the consumption of stool, vomit etc was somehow not impure/bad then the Quran would state so as it only seems to be the logical thing to do to abstain from consuming such things, right? More inherantly logical than cutting off a part of our skin, atleast. On culture, every culture has good and bad elements to it, personally I don't think I know anyone, muslim or non-muslim, who seems to consume dung and animal stool (maybe some do in secret, I can't be sure I suppose) despite it not explicitly being unlawful because no one seems to regard it as "good". If that makes sense. Impure things to consume are not limited to what you listed, heck the 'list' has probably only grown over time, so naturally the principles must be applied. -
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Fresh dates are good for you and apparently Muhammed liked and ate them. So according to your logic, are eating dates mandated by God?
You have made statements that are clearly not true. Instead of addressing and answering direct simple questions, you have circumbulated with your logical fallacies.
Anyhow, you made the statement that circumcision is mandated by God. By the way, God is also member of this forum listening and everything we say and do are indeed permanently recorded on God's tablet which we all at the end have to answer to. God has given us a stern warning not to say "this is from God..." without knowledge, saying what our tongues make up, and imputing lies about God. I keep that in mind.
I suggest that before you say anything about God you best be sure of what you are saying. If you are a proponent of circumcision because of tradition, culture, cosmetic, medical or whatever the reasons, that's fine and none of the reasons would be contradictory to the Koran (in other words not a sin) but to say that God mandated circumcision is a lie. It is a sin to lie about God.
You lie about God, you bear the grave consequences. Putting aside personal consequences, my reverence to God is such that I would not lie about God. If I say anything that is not true, it is out of pure ignorance/lack of better understanding and when someone points out the truths or the error in my ways or understanding, I listen and think about it as surely I do not want to believe in lies told about God and to spread such lies.
Israfeel, several people here have pointed out your logical fallicies. You can choose to continue in your beliefs and arguing. That is your choice. At the end, each soul has to answer to God. I choose to believe in the Truths and not lies. To say that God mandated circumcision is a lie.
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No problem.
Regardless of what scholar or scholarly knowledge you follow you claim to follow the sunnah as do they (Hanafi and Malaki) yet they have different conclusions than you. This shows how you (and they) view, accept or interpret hadith is subjective. Unless you know of a none faulty methodology you'd like to share? if so, please let me know. However, if it is just following Bukhari Sharif, I'd advise you research a bit more about Imam Bukhari before accepting all his hadiths as infallible sources. Also care to share the hadith?
Hanafis, Malikis and other schools of thought teach to blindly follow their Imams, a concept which is called Taqlid. Thus those schools of thought give preference to the verdicts of jurists over and above the Hadith. On the other hand I belong to the Ahlil Hadith sect which gives preference to Hadith over the verdict of any imam or school of thought.
So there are several Ahadith which prove that circumcision is obligatory. For example the Hadith in Bukhari Sharif narrated by Abu Huraira that the Prophet peace be upon him said "Five practices are characteristics of the Fitra circumcision, shaving the pubic hair, cutting the moustaches short, clipping the nails, and depilating the hair of the armpits." It is interesting that Hanafis and Malikis consider all these practices as fard with exception of circumcision. But logically all of these five things should have the same ruling.
Another Hadith in Abu Dawud Sharif mentions that a person accepted Islam at the hands of the Prophet peace be upon him, who commanded him to shave off his head from the hair of disbelief and to get circumcised. Based on this Hadith if a man accepts Islam he must shave off his head and if he is uncircumcised he must get circumcised.
Another Hadith which is reported in four books of the Sihhah us Sita where the Prophet peace be upon him said that at the time of the Aqiqah of a newborn baby (on the seventh day) the harmful thing should be removed, referring to the foreskin.
Therefore based on these Ahadith it is clear that circumcision is in fact obligatory, and those who refuse circumcision are committing a sin.