Hot/"ramadan" Answer
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Peace sister Nadia,
It is good to see you back on the forum )
wanted to know as you say it's a means of control/abstinence, thus it's dual also...personal & environmental....also...are there any methods as to the best personal means of control along with the food and drink? As a few posts back, silence was also discussed? Have u had a chance to research that a bit further?
Feeding of the poor would also be another mean of control since it is mentioned 595 with abstinence as corresponding to "qala'id" in 597. Moreover, feeding of the poor is mentioned in other signs as a substitute for abstinence.
Also, sister marie wrote
I wonder this question, why the night of alqadr is better than a thousand sha-hr (full moon?)?
Perhaps because there is two lights during the night of alqadr 1) the light brought by the quran and 2) the light brought by the full moonThis would be specific to where the quran descended geographically in a sense as at the specific time it came down...
It is most likely that the great reading was descended in Arabia in the Northern hemisphere. Now is the night of measure only one where the great reading was descended long time ago or does it occur again and again at the specified time period?
I tend to think that it occurs again and again. Thus, the night of measure is not just one night and it is not only for the Northern hemisphere but a similar phenomena does occur in the Southern hemisphere.
I hope this helps.
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
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Peace brother Someone,
For how many nights the red full moon is visible?
For the night of al-qadr, I don't think there's a mention of it occuring during shahr ramadan. That which was descended in the night of al-qadr is not this scripture, but rouh al-qodos 162 16102 bringing the commands of the lord.
161
162
163I agree that 971 could be either interpreted to be talking about what we are reading (the scripture) or the "ru7"/spirit but either way the conclusion is valid. Don't forget that the "ru7" is what brought the scripture (see 4252, 4015, 26192-195). The link is provided because the great reading was descended at the time of the scorching full-moon (2185) and the great reading (or the ru7 that brought it) was descended in the night of measure (971).
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace to you dear Ayman, all
second question, how do you know the shahr of ramadan is the first of the restricted shahrs or is marking the beggining of the restricted periods
From the answers to questions 1 and 3, the answer to 2 can be deduced.
I hope this helps.
thanks for the explanations, now it seems less subjective to me...(with the strong emphasis on less...)
Ayman, please, can you explain shortly how do you deduce it?
However, what most is worrying me here is exactly that.... there is way too much of deduction and indirect coming to the conclusions....what is very unlike the rest of the book, it`s commandements and instructions...
(like we are coming to the houses from the back door or through the window and not the front door...?)
i remember in the past some people used to argue and justify the traditional way of salat in a similar way...picking the bits and pieces from here and there to patch up the imagined concept that is simply not there...with no support in the verses giving clear cut instructions of how to do it...
i expect the correct answer, when found, to be no less direct, clear, and straightforward than all other of the book`s instruction are....or at least i would expect some clear and direct reasons explaining why these restriction months matters are given in such an unusual way...
however maybe they are not intended for us to comprehend them being only of a temporary importance or intended only for the original recipients of the scripture, a specific cultural milieu and similar......
when i read the verses mentioning shahr haram and similar stuff i always get the impression that all the people, both believers and rejectors of that time(and even their ancestors ) had know what are these times of restriction by default...
at the end of the day maybe its just me, i mean i should study your arguments more and clear my head more from the preconcieved notions....please do continue to search for the proofs and to remind us...it seems that the god has gifted you for the research, please do not stop before the right time and be not satisfied with the less than perfect solution
Peace and all best wishes, Zlatan
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Peace be upon you all,
I think that people before Television (not that long ago) had a better concept of Astronomy. They saw better the conncetions between the "heavenly" bodies and the earth (of which the HUman is made from) and how they affected each other. I think that is what we all lack and which is why we are having trouble accepting this, or perhaps still not 100% at the answer. I feel comfortable with this answer that Ayman has brought, but not 100% and I cant explain why.
Also, why is not talking part of the restrictions of the abstainig? Isnt that the method that we see as example twice in this reading(quran)?
Maythe God increase our KNOWlegde.
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Peace brother Ayman, Kyle, all...
Thank u for the observations on the abstinence and the night of measure...much appreciated!
I tend to think that it occurs again and again. Thus, the night of measure is not just one night and it is not only for the Northern hemisphere but a similar phenomena does occur in the Southern hemisphere.
This way we would have at the very least, two nights of measure globally per one year, or 12 moon counts...as it can't be one given the nature of earth as spherical...I too am leaning toward this...have u any research that might lead u to believe that the 'night' of measure is only one? I haven't come across it but then again, it's easy to deduce that one night of measure would be equal in both parts of the globe thus leading to equality and once per ramadan even if it does occur twice annually in the big global yearly picture...one could witness the phenomenon twice obviously but don't need to complete the count once we already have in a year...that were the couple of observations we had while discussing it...
Also brother Ayman, if u can, please can u clarify the count as being 10 days maximum...i mean the meaning of the arabic word used as being a max of 10 and any other relevant info pertaining to this as i can't understand the meaning clearly enough to be able to explain it....Thank you!
Brother Kyle
Also, why is not talking part of the restrictions of the abstainig? Isnt that the method that we see as example twice in this reading(quran)?
I think that the silence is part of a special fast/sign rather than a regular required thing in ramadan(i could be wrong)...Abstaining from food and drink and feeding the needy seems to be something that can be done on a regular basis yearly without much changing in the norm...apart from a lot of discipline required...Not talking would be difficult if you have a job to go to 6 days a week...unless u took a special leave of absence just for this purpose every year...do u think that's what is required? Every ramadan 10 days of time off from work? Or do u think that the weekends when one can do this is about enough? I haven't really researched this a lot, just wanted to know what u think?
Nadia
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Peace be upon you kyle
I think that people before Television (not that long ago) had a better concept of Astronomy. They saw better the conncetions between the "heavenly" bodies and the earth (of which the HUman is made from) and how they affected each other.
very well noticed!
this is one of amazing paradoxes when more mean less...
Peace, Zlatan
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Peace be upon you Nadia,
Not talking would be difficult if you have a job to go to 6 days a week...unless u took a special leave of absence just for this purpose every year...do u think that's what is required? Every ramadan 10 days of time off from work? Or do u think that the weekends when one can do this is about enough? I haven't really researched this a lot, just wanted to know what u think?
I am not really sure of the answer, just want to make sure we do not reject a portion of the message. I take ALL of this message to be an example, it it just feels funny to me not to include this abstinence of SPEECH. It seems to me that the God sent WORDS to "adam" to redeem him. I am certain of the POWER of WORDS, but I wonder how much of the HUMAN POPULATION really understands it.
In any case, the time limit for abstaining from talk is only three days, not ten, so perhaps it is talking for the first three days, then eating drinking and sex for the next 7 days.
I don't know, just trying to keep up in this discussion D
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Peace be upon you Zlatan,
idolfree1 wrote
I think that people before Television (not that long ago) had a better concept of Astronomy. They saw better the conncetions between the "heavenly" bodies and the earth (of which the HUman is made from) and how they affected each other.very well noticed!
this is one of amazing paradoxes when more mean less...
Thank you brother. I am sure you could expand on this, assuming you are still practicing agriculture as you had chosen at one point.
I would love that oppurtunity to be self substaining (on a human level of course).
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Peace be upon you all,
Just wanted to copy and paste Saleems question so it is not missed, I would like that confirmation as well so I can be sure and have more of a basis to analyze this understanding.
Taking your article on ramadan
Summer Solstice Jun 21 2005 246 AM EDT
Full moon is June 22 2005
So we should abstain from sunrise to sunset starting from June 23 2005 for 10 days am I correct.
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Peace Ayman, and all
In laylat al-qadr, it's the essence of things that is brought down. This scripture includes an arabic form of this essence of things that is the reality itself, and was also brought down in this arabic form by ar-rouh, in a "laylat al-qadr" (one of many). This scripture includes also, an arabic message from the lord to those with knowledge, in order to guide them.
I don't know how this physical arabic book had come to exist, but I know that many pocess the physical arabic scripture, and are clueless about its essence. Their laylat al-qadr has not yet come to pass.
Those who had experienced it should be seeing some clarity and feeling the responsability coming with it.
All this to say that "laylat al-qadr" is something that can be experienced by anyone who is serving the god ar-rahman ar-rahim, if the god wishs so.
I'll stop here, maybe i'm going too far. Please let me know if it's the case. )
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Peace Kyle,
I am not really sure of the answer, just want to make sure we do not reject a portion of the message. I take ALL of this message to be an example, it it just feels funny to me not to include this abstinence of SPEECH. It seems to me that the God sent WORDS to "adam" to redeem him. I am certain of the POWER of WORDS, but I wonder how much of the HUMAN POPULATION really understands it.
Indeed, language is a very powerful tool for communication outside and within...so lack of outside would certainly stress the communication within.
In any case, the time limit for abstaining from talk is only three days, not ten, so perhaps it is talking for the first three days, then eating drinking and sex for the next 7 days.
Could be, but i still think that it could be used in a specific scenario and not part of the regular personal abstaining in ramadan...but obviously one could incorporate it and see how it goes...I suppose like many things it's open and relative....
Nadia
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Peace be upon you Nadia,
Could be, but i still think that it could be used in a specific scenario and not part of the regular personal abstaining in ramadan...but obviously one could incorporate it and see how it goes...I suppose like many things it's open and relative....
Yes, at this stage it is still open and I agree that the abstaining from talk could be specific based. But just want to be sure that we do not disregard this SIGN that was given not once, but twice in this reading. May the Lord increase us in knowledge.
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Peace dear brother Zlatan,
From the answers to questions 1 and 3, the answer to 2 can be deduced.
Ayman, please, can you explain shortly how do you deduce it?
From the answer of 3 we can deduce that the time of shahr ramadan is the time of restriction and that the restriction occurs in the hot time of the year (after the summer solstice). From the answer of 1 we determined that the shahr of ramadan is the first shahr/full moon after the summer solstice. Hence, the scorching full moon is the first of the restricted full moons. Here is your question 2
how do you know the shahr of ramadan is the first of the restricted shahrs or is marking the beggining of the restricted periods
I hope that you can now see the answer.
However, what most is worrying me here is exactly that.... there is way too much of deduction and indirect coming to the conclusions....what is very unlike the rest of the book, it`s commandements and instructions...
(like we are coming to the houses from the back door or through the window and not the front door...?)
It only seems this way because we are used to the mistake of "shahr" meaning month. Once, we get past that and we get used to "shahr" meaning full moon then 2185 actually becomes very simple and it suddenly contains ALL the information we need to find out exactly when to begin the abstinence. Also, once we understand the completion of the count to mean "ten" then we also know how long exactly the abstinence is for. Hence, 2185 contains the COMPLETE information one needs to know when to start and end the abstinence. One doesn't need to look at any other verses for that purpose.
i remember in the past some people used to argue and justify the traditional way of salat in a similar way...picking the bits and pieces from here and there to patch up the imagined concept that is simply not there...with no support in the verses giving clear cut instructions of how to do it...
The complete information about "salat"/learning connection is contained in two words "timed book".
i expect the correct answer, when found, to be no less direct, clear, and straightforward than all other of the book`s instruction are....or at least i would expect some clear and direct reasons explaining why these restriction months matters are given in such an unusual way...
So far, this is the most direct, clear and straight forward answer on this subject. However, I am not particularly attached to anything except The Truth. Hence, if someone finds a more direct, clear, and straight forward answer tomorrow, then I am all for it.
Please remember that when one is used to a certain wrong understanding, it takes a while to readjust to a correct one. When people were first told that the earth is spehrical, at first it seemed so much more complicated, indirect, and unclear compared to a flat earth at the center of the universe. Now this has naturally become clear, direct, and straight forward and the flat-earth understanding is the one that creates insurmountable complications.
however maybe they are not intended for us to comprehend them being only of a temporary importance or intended only for the original recipients of the scripture, a specific cultural milieu and similar......
I am certain that the great reading has nothing of only temporary importance or intended only for the original recipients or a specific cultural milieu. The more I learn and study the book, the more I am sure of that.
when i read the verses mentioning shahr haram and similar stuff i always get the impression that all the people, both believers and rejectors of that time(and even their ancestors ) had know what are these times of restriction by default...
Yes, even now people here in America who have NEVER read the great reading restrict the hunting of deer during the summer and the hunting season begins in November. So everybody knows when the times of hunting restrictions are. I am sure it is the same in Europe and other places that properly manage wild life according to The God's natural laws (even though they may not realize it).
at the end of the day maybe its just me, i mean i should study your arguments more and clear my head more from the preconcieved notions....please do continue to search for the proofs and to remind us...it seems that the god has gifted you for the research, please do not stop before the right time and be not satisfied with the less than perfect solution
Thank you for your kind words brother. We should all do our learning connection/"salat" as long as we are alive. I pray that I do not stop studying until I die. I can only hope for mercy from our Lord. I would be more than satisfied with just that.
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
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Peace brother Saleem, all,
Takeing your article on ramadan
Summer Solstice Jun 21 2005 246 AM EDT
Full moon is June 22 2005
So we should abstain from sunrise to sunset starting from June 23 2005 for 10 days am I correct.
Thank you for the information. One thing we have to remember is that The God tells us that the whole night until dawn is one unit (7320). Hence, we should not let the arbitrary start of day at midnight (12AM) confuse us.
I was not planning to look up the info until we get closer to the time. However, I was having a discussion on the subject and a kind sister pointed out that the full moon occurs shortly after 12AM on June 22. Hence, for those of us in the northern hemisphere we would actually start the abstinence from the dawn of June 22 for 10 days. I haven't looked up the info for the southern hemisphere, but I think that the time for their restricted full moons should be coming up shortly.
If you have the opportunity, go out and watch the full moon on the night of the 21-22 June with your family. It is going to be a beautiful sight, especially so close to the solstice. It cannot get any better and I know my children love to watch the moon and stars. Don't forget to take your cameras. )
If weather doesn't permit where you are then enjoy some internal peace.
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
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Peace brother Someone, all,
In laylat al-qadr, it's the essence of things that is brought down. This scripture includes an arabic form of this essence of things that is the reality itself, and was also brought down in this arabic form by ar-rouh, in a "laylat al-qadr" (one of many). This scripture includes also, an arabic message from the lord to those with knowledge, in order to guide them.
I don't know how this physical arabic book had come to exist, but I know that many pocess the physical arabic scripture, and are clueless about its essence. Their laylat al-qadr has not yet come to pass.
Those who had experienced it should be seeing some clarity and feeling the responsability coming with it.
All this to say that "laylat al-qadr" is something that can be experienced by anyone who is serving the god ar-rahman ar-rahim, if the god wishs so.
I'll stop here, maybe i'm going too far. Please let me know if it's the case. )
I think I agree with everthing you say and you are not going too far. The only question I would ask is for you to go further and clarify by translating "laylat al-qadr".
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
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Peace dear brother Ayman, all !
However, what most is worrying me here is exactly that.... there is way too much of deduction and indirect coming to the conclusions....what is very unlike the rest of the book, it`s commandements and instructions...
(like we are coming to the houses from the back door or through the window and not the front door...?)
It only seems this way because we are used to the mistake of "shahr" meaning month. Once, we get past that and we get used to "shahr" meaning full moon then 2185 actually becomes very simple and it suddenly contains ALL the information we need
Ok it may be so, but what about the determinining of all of the restricted periods?
Its far from being direct and clear cut given ...compare it to the god `s decree on number of the restricted shahrs, the way it is said(936), it is very unlike it and very unlike the way other numerous decrees and restrictions throughout the book are given?
why the god havent said" o you who believe ashaurul hurumu are1..,2...,3...,4... or from... to ..."or something similar to it...
thats the way He decres when He is decreeing something to people...there`s no beating around bush...
Can you found any decree that you believe is from the god which is given in a fashion similar to the way (as you understand it now) restricted periods are given?
i remember in the past some people used to argue and justify the traditional way of salat in a similar way...picking the bits and pieces from here and there to patch up the imagined concept that is simply not there...with no support in the verses giving clear cut instructions of how to do it...
The complete information about "salat"/learning connection is contained in two words "timed book".
i dont understand, can you elaborate a bit more, maybe its my poor english now? what would be meaning of the expression "timed book" in english?
Please remember that when one is used to a certain wrong understanding, it takes a while to readjust to a correct one. When people were first told that the earth is spehrical, at first it seemed so much more complicated, indirect, and unclear compared to a flat earth at the center of the universe. Now this has naturally become clear, direct, and straight forward and the flat-earth understanding is the one that creates insurmountable complications.
very wisely said! thanks for the reminder.... i should really try this tactic
however maybe they are not intended for us to comprehend them being only of a temporary importance or intended only for the original recipients of the scripture, a specific cultural milieu and similar......
I am certain that the great reading has nothing of only temporary importance or intended only for the original recipients or a specific cultural milieu. The more I learn and study the book, the more I am sure of that.
Of course everything has universal importance, however, correct me if i am wrong, it may be either direct or indirect....that is, the perpetual importance of some of the book`s sayings may be exactly in their temporary importance, significance or validity...i mean we can not applie them directly but we can deduce from them and thus indirectly extract wisdom(like some regulations concerning the prophet only-related solely to the prophet).
By reading of some regulations which are highy culturaly or similarly conditioned we learn from it that all the regulations are not for all the times and all the people and that everything is relative...or that following of the essence of the god`s messages can take different forms of expressions depending of conditions...( for example what about eskimos in the case when they are having not water no sand to rub with as ordered in 56?)
Thus for our generation the significance of the periods of the restrictions(even if we do not know when they are) might be the message that the very essence of the righteous life is in a very strict respecting of the God given borders and instructions, upholding of the laws, contracts and promises and all obligations and particularly peace treaties.....
what say you?
anyway, thanks for advices and all the info!
Peace and best wishes, Zlatan
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Ayman, let me import an another issue which maybe might shed some light on this topic...
Tell me, how do we determine the amount of ransom(money or resources) which murderer should pay in the cases of killing.... if I am not mistaken it is a prescribed solution for some cases of killing....
but nowhere the book prescribes the amount of the ransom...
similarly, we do not find what are prescribed restricted shahrs...
has this reasoning any validity?
best wishes, Zlatan
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Peace Ayman, all
I have studied your article more carefully and here are my results ...i believe you will take my comment postively, nevertheless i would like to state that i have bolded some of my comments with no purpose of hostility and blind opposition but in order to make them more difficult to escape readers` attention
Peace brother Zlatan,
Thank you for your kind comments and excellent questions. I will try to answer them, unless The God wills otherwise.
first question, how do you determine that the shahr of the hot time is the first shahr after summer solistice...
as mentioned by one of the quoted articles the hotest time of the year is not so fixed as you have assumed... sometimes its july/august and sometimes june/july period, so how did you decided which of these two is ramadan?
The solstice is around June 22 and we all agree that the hottest time of the year is after the summer solstice. So we are talking about a two months window for the hottest time of the year ranging from June 22 to August 22. Depending on how close to the solstice the first full moon occurred, this period can have 2 or 3 full moons. So which one of these is the full moon of scorching heat?
The word "ramadan" means scorching/burning. So "shahr ramadan" literally means "burning full moon". In addition to the meaning of "scorching/burning heat", when we look in classical Arabic dictionaries, we see the following meanings for "RMD"
- Highest point of the sun
Hence, we hear the following verse of an Arabic poem talking about "rmd" and the shadow being perpendicular.
- What comes when the sun is still hot
Clouds and rain that are "rmdy" are those that come while the sun is hot.
- Red eyes
So the question is which out of the 2-3 full moons that occur between the summer solstice to August 22 is likely to be the "burning full moon"?
The first full moon after the summer solstice
- Comes at a time when the shadow is perpendicular and the sun is at its highest point.
- Comes when the sun is still hot because the days are longest and hence the moon is apparent while the day is still hot and there is still daylight.
- Is reddish in color (looks like it is burning).
Thus out of the 2-3 full moons above, the etymology of the word "rmd" points to the full moon closest to the summer solstice.
Now, let me answer your third question first.
third question how do you know that the time after shahr of ramadan is the time of restriction at all?
From 2185 we know that "shahr ramadhan" is when the great reading was descended. A time when a chapter was descended (986) was a hot time of the year (981) where there was fighting. Verses such as 2217 indicate that there was big fighting during "al-shahr al-7aram".
Moreover, according to Classical Arabic dictionaries, Arabs used to use the following inhumane way of hunting during the hot time of the year
They used to hunt by chasing the animal in the heat until its legs became so burned that their skin peels and then unable to run they easily take it. I also mentioned in the article the fact that summer is when most animals give birth and killing the female animal would result in the death of all its newborns. So here we have clear humanitarian and wildlife conservation reasons for the restriction on hunting during the hot time of the year.
Another point is in 52 that talks about "al-shahr al-7aram" and "al-qala'id" (means of control). See http//www.free-minds.org/articles/gods_system/name.htm on why abstinence/"swm" is one of the "qala'id".
second question, how do you know the shahr of ramadan is the first of the restricted shahrs or is marking the beggining of the restricted periods
From the answers to questions 1 and 3, the answer to 2 can be deduced.
no it cant.... in the answer to the question 3 you have said that
shahr ramadan when the reading was descended coincides with hot time when a chapter is descended(981)and where was fighting, plus that there was some fighting during shahr haram(2217)....The problem is that there is no proof presented that the fighting in 2217 and chapter 9 is the same fighting...even if there is evidence to it, it would only prove that some of the asshurul hurumu coincide with the hot time of the year but not all of them...the ashurul hurumu might started in spring and thus one or two of them would still coincide with the hot time and the big fightings
so there is no proof in the article that all of the ashurul hurumu fall in the hot time or summer...and particularly, though there might be room for claiming that shahr of ramadan is one of the ashurul hurumu, there is no any evidence in the article that the shahr of ramadan is the first of the four shahrs....
I hope that you will give your answers in january when as you have said you will have more time, until then i must commend your great debating at SRI ... i am reading its archives these days....your knowledge, reasoning, wit, and detail, patient and very lucid responses and debating in very wise and nice manner is truly fascinating to me... may The God honors us with more of his servants like you....
Peace and all the best wishes, Zlatan