Clothing code for believing women
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Peace,
Okay. Okay. Forget I said anything.
God bless you
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Peace supportpeacenotwar,
Well, we are fixated around sexuality when it comes to modesty. Being modest has deep connections with personality and behavior and collocate with humble.
Well, forget about what I said about science, there is no consensus about developed or innate gender identity. I did not think before I wrote.
Your words or any other words are helpful one way or another.
God bless you
Peace Man of Faith,
Why, that's a rather chilly response. Kind of contradicts what you told me via PM when you thought I meant I was leaving, although I didn't mean that, although that crosses my mind sometimes when I'm here.
I have to say something about my experience here I have received some very positive responses from non-Muslims when I discuss with them, people who are not following Islam but are open minded to Islam. Then when I come here, I find I have to try hard to get anything positive back. Although, there are some pleasant exchanges between myself and a few other members and there are, some good resources. When I put down responses, I do so with thought and sometimes I try to modify my responses to make them clearer. I notice a few others do that here too and I appreciate the effort. That they try to convey their findings in case it might help someone else and that is exactly the reason I do this.
When I compare my experience, between non-Muslim and Muslim, those who use that label - I start wondering, who is really behaving in a more Islamic way sometimes? I know some believers feel passionately, I understand that and things will get heated, but I feel like it's an important lesson. One that I find again in the Quran. This has been something that I've thought about so I might as well share it.
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Thank you all for your posts, there are interesting points made here...
I just have to say about the story of Yusuf it is the point of women making a move and as we know in the Quran God said "And she certainly determined him, and he would have inclined to her had he not seen the proof of his Lord. And thus that We should avert from him evil and immorality. Indeed, he was of Our chosen servants."
This could be interpreted that she could have had more power in that moment over him, and that generally women are the ones who have more control. I agree that no one is responsible for other peoples virtues but if you'd for example walk around insulting people and if someone insulted you back you cannot say you didn't have anything to do with his reaction - your conduct can trigger people's bad behavior.
Also Huruf, you said in 60.12 there is nothing about dress, but if you see there is "and that they will not disobey thee in any just matter"
and then we have 2431 "And tell the believing women to..." in this ayat the Prophet tells them something which they should obey - at least we have the advice to cover their chests, which is directly related to the dress code.So in conclusion, there is no difference in your opinion in clothing for women inside and outside of house i? It seems most think she can wear as she likes as long as she stays modest?
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Peace supportpeacenotwar,
I am terribly sorry, I have had a rough day and my emotions got the better of me.
Your input is welcome and I appreciate what you say in several threads. I have been a bad muslim today...
God bless you
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Peace Man of Faith,
I don't think you've been a bad Muslim. On some threads, you have been quite supportive of me, and other people haven't chipped in to help but you have. So don't be too hard on yourself. We all make mistakes. Maybe it helps to know that I am not against you or attacking your opinon and I support your right to your approach even if I occasionally disagree. We are human so we are bound to disagree on a few things!
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Thank you all for your posts, there are interesting points made here...
I just have to say about the story of Yusuf it is the point of women making a move and as we know in the Quran God said "And she certainly determined him, and he would have inclined to her had he not seen the proof of his Lord. And thus that We should avert from him evil and immorality. Indeed, he was of Our chosen servants."
This could be interpreted that she could have had more power in that moment over him, and that generally women are the ones who have more control. I agree that no one is responsible for other peoples virtues but if you'd for example walk around insulting people and if someone insulted you back you cannot say you didn't have anything to do with his reaction - your conduct can trigger people's bad behavior.
Also Huruf, you said in 60.12 there is nothing about dress, but if you see there is "and that they will not disobey thee in any just matter"
and then we have 2431 "And tell the believing women to..." in this ayat the Prophet tells them something which they should obey - at least we have the advice to cover their chests, which is directly related to the dress code.So in conclusion, there is no difference in your opinion in clothing for women inside and outside of house i? It seems most think she can wear as she likes as long as she stays modest?
Of course, Yusuf was chosen as servant because he had relied on God's evidence. We all have the proof of our Rabb, whether we relay on our human fitra or on revelation. If we fall for something that we know is wrong and we believe is wrong, it is because we do not believe that much really that it is wrong, because we do not see the evidence of God no matter what we say and therefore we give ourselves permission to do that which in principle we know we must not do because we are pandering to our lusts and not to our faithfulness to our fitra and there to God. That is, it is not that we are unable to avoid it, it is that we do not believe in it. Men who lust after women and pursue it do not believe in virtue. But since the virtue of men is very rarely called into account and they can get away with anything, it is only those men who are really conscious who will refrain from the wrong things. The others simply do not have the necessary belief. Not all women have that belief, but traditionally they have for more to loose, and therefore an incentive to, even if they are not conscious, for their own good they may refrain. Modernly with condoms and pils and other means of avoidance of pregnancy, women feel also less need to be virtues by need. They still have more to loose but the distance with men is shorter, therefore the give in more to their lusts.
Be it as it may it does not mean that because they have more to loose that men are in their power, that is ridiculous. I am tired of seeing, I have said it already, that men control themselves wonderfully when it is in their own interest to do so and they stand to loose something. Using women for them is just gain, no downside, so why should they keepp themselves from using them. Other thing of course will be before God's judgement. Any man will fall for temptation of an attractive woman if he gives licence to himself to do so, not if he does not give licence to himself to do so. Yusuf did not give licence to himself, he was conscious. He knew his virtue was in his hands, not in in someone else's hands. And no man who wants to be virtuous finds himself abandoned by God. You first turn away from God and then give in to whatever brings apparent gain to you without having to pay for it. And I insist that there are virtuous men, that keep faithfulness and keep their chastity. But that is, they really believe.
For the dress code, I thought a code consists of a set of instructions. In that sentence you say about the boobs, what are the other instructions concerning clothing? Is it just cover the chesst? Is that a code? A code with just one thing? Well, fine. What is the Qur'an dress code for women? Not very long cover boobs. Not like having to think about millimiters or centimeters and oh I forgot to put this on or take that off or whatever. Very simple. Dress code.
So in conclusion, there is no difference in your opinion in clothing for women inside and outside of house i? It seems most think she can wear as she likes as long as she stays modest?
Thsi word modesty in English seems to have been chosen to be misleading, because it can mean at the same time the opposite of boastful and the opposite of indecent. So which modesty are we talking about?
As far as I am concerned, it is about the first one. About the second one, clothes are the least part of it. That is why the Qur'an, I think does not get tangled on it, because what in one place or at one time may be considered decent enough, at it may not be somewhere or time else. So it is more an attitude than any clothes. And that is why both men and women are told to guard their chastity, their sexual parts, because it is not a matter of clothes, although the clothes may be involved, but a matter of will and attitude. A look can do what no clothes or lack of them can manage. That is why the burqas are such a great thing. No looks from women, that keeps men safe. Of course that keeps men safe but not women because for that men should also wear burqas. Or aren't we women worth protecting from sin? We might start a campaign for unisex burqa. Because let us not forget part of the injuction given equally to both men and women regards the look, the stares. So much bandwith and paper and ink spent on womens clothes and so little on the way we look in spite of it being universal. Is that not a look code?
I think the part that is directed to women only in 24.31 relates to the first kind of modesty. If we think that the Qur'an is directed to the whole world and not just to certain people of certain time, it is normal that it doesn't go very much into clothes, because obviously there is not a universal all time code and within each environment there are always ways to be modest and ways to be boastful, exhibitionist or indecent.
As to inside or outside the house, I think again that depends on the environment. Today in the "developed" world people dress a lot the same inside and outside the house, long sporting slacks and loose jumpers. And when it is hot the same thing but short sleeves or sleveless and may be shorts. A different thing is work, where there may be a dress code, but a real dress code, no a mere "cover the boobs".
Salaam
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I am sick of women being compared to watermelons, lollipops, roosters, candies etc to force women to cover up almost fully or fully. I still remeber when I was scrolling my Facebook newsfeed, I saw a post shared by my friend. It was a post about women being equal to featherless roosters for not covering their hair. Wait! If the women do not wear veil, doesn't mean that they are fully naked like featherless roosters.
And I still remember reading a blog entry on why women must wear headcover. They gave reasons that lollipops must be covered or they will be spoiled.
Why are women often considered as objects? Whilst men are true humans? Well I know that women have more attractions than men (breasts, hips, thighs) but it does no mean that hair or even face must be covered.
I have read a tweet of a hardcore niqabi saying that women like her are the only good women and may be rewarded much better husbands than those who don't cover their hair. Extreme types of Sectarian "Muslims" love saying that women are like jewels to justify their obligation of veiling for women.
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Salam huruf,
I've read your posts in this thread and I feel that you have come to a very genuine insight. I really like what you write and I find it deeper and more enlightened than what one usually comes by. Wonderful to read!
I also just wanted to add some observations of my own, not directly on the topic, but still related in a way
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The quran is a very powerful book. One feature it seems to have is that it "helps" one to expose oneself. It is quite flexible in interpretation, which means it allows one to "see what you want to see" and interpret things in whatever way one desires. So, if we seek peace and balance then we will find this in the quran.... but even the oppressors will find "evidence" for their inclinations. This doesn't mean there is no right way to interpret the text, because obviously Truth stand apart from falsehood... but as always, WE have to initiate the direction and intention towards truth WITHIN OURSELVES first, then God will help us on the way... but it is we who are responsible for ourselves. So, if someone is sadistic and stone-hearted enough to prefer cutting of hands, then that person will find some "evidence" of this in the quran, even though this evidence may be inherently flawed and false. The quran acts in a way as a mirror of yourself. Not just a mirror, but almost like some dangerous tool... if you use it properly it will be of great benefit, but if you misuse it, you may get badly injured (from inventing lies about God).
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On a different topic... I find it that it is disasterous for a society to disrespect and degrade women. It is amazing that societies at large are so blind to the importance of woman, and rather prefer to degrade them. There are sayings in some societies that a woman will shape seven generations... so one can imagine what impact a woman can have on society... and it should be obvious when remembering that children are very much shaped by women, more so than men, at least in terms of upbringing. Perhaps people would call it coincidence, or unfounded, and most likely the situation is complex, but look at all those countries who have a special "talent" for degrading women. Such countries would be e.g. the so called muslim countries during their times of religious rule (mostly present), and also many so called eastern european countries as well as Russia. In these former soviet countries (just to give them a label, right or wrong) prostitution has been rampant even at a common daily level. Prostitution is often seen as something normal in society. Women in general are seen as property, especially of sexual nature. All these countries are not known for their success or wellfare... rather to the contrary. So, in my simple mind, degrading and institutionalized lack of respect for women is closely connected to a society in bad shape. Of course, things are complex and there are so many variables and factors, but I certainly don't think a society can flourish at the same time it is degrading women.
Just some of my observations and thoughts.
Peace! -
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...It was a post about women being equal to featherless roosters for not covering their hair.
...They gave reasons that lollipops must be covered or they will be spoiled.
...Extreme types of Sectarian "Muslims" love saying that women are like jewels to justify their obligation of veiling for women.People really expose themselves when they use such imagery. Either it is insulting in a ridiculing way, or in a "sweet" way. It is traditional Islam's favourite hobby to portray themselves as the world champion of women's rights and women protection and respect of women. It's BS, and I'm also sick of the lollipop/pearl/rose imagery. It's just clever rhetoric to fool the audience and justify the disease. And what's worse is that many women are into it... amazing.
Peace
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Thanks, Zulf
I know that we share a lot in this forum and it is pleasant. I think you are more tactful than I am, but it is as well. For a long time I tried to be concilitory about "sensible" matters, but it sort of tortured me, because I could not get accross how I felt certain enormities. So now I am afraid, I am more blunt or sarcastic, but all I want is that people get a shock and after that they may see with new eyes, and may or may not agree with my point of view, but at least they are aware.
Of course, I have benefitted a lot from this and other forums. Posters here made me look differently at some things that would not have entered my mind before and I must say I feel grateful and has changed my attitude and my understanding, for the bbetter I think.
What you say about the efect of the Qur'an on people it sounds almost like science fiction, but it is true. Iyt is as if with each step one was left with different possibilities where a number of them are traps. Suprisingly, I have the intuition that daring is the most rearding attitude. When you dare, you find insights which are very rewarding.
Getting back to the matter of this thread, I am sorry that all this back and forth with women's clothes and mens "needs" ends up with downgrading men, even though the idea, conscious or unconscious is to give them an edge.
I had a father who was a virtuous man. I have always wondered why my father would ever need that male edges be upheld when he felt so sad about the deal women got in society and suffered himself from the "privileges" and "freedoms" that men got away with.
The thing is that the "privileges" for men in fact are privileges for the worst men, because decent family loving men so not need them and in fact suffer them through the females members of their family and they themselves feel downgraded as males when they are thrown in in the same bunch with those that would want women to constricted. And the imposition of veiling is obviousoly a constrain. Whereas the Qur'an says in 4.1 to be conscious of God and to be conscious of the wombs. Are we conscious of the wombs?
Salaam
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Covering of the head is a sign of fear and reverence to Allah (Tabbarak wa Taala). A woman who does not cover her head is showing herself as being rude and arrogant, and Allah says
Nor walk in insolence upon the Earth (Surah 3119 Bismillah included)
For a woman to not cover her head and expose her hair and her beauty is walking in insolence upon the Earth which Allah hates. I think it even says somewhere in the Bible that if a woman does not cover her head she should shave off her head because what she has no honor or respect in the Eyes of God and the righteous society.
We Muslims who follow Sunnah and Hadith even our males are encouraged to cover the head with a skullcap, kufi, and shawl as this is the Sunnah of the Prophets peace be upon them. It signifies our Fear and Reverence of Allah who is above us. It also signifies that we cover our head and our mind so that we are always reminded that there is a Higher Being Who is greater than our intellect.
The Hadith-rejectors neither their men or women cover their head, another proof that they are a misguided group who just want to follow the English style and not the way of the Prophets. According to the Pure Quran our beloved Prophet Muhammad Sallallahu alayhi wasallam has been addressed as Al-Muzzamil (the one folded in garments) and Al-Mudaththir (the one wrapped in a mantle). We know that our Prophet Muhammad Sallallahu alaihi wasallam covered himself up in a black mantle out of the awe and fear of his Lord and Master. Obviously the Quranists/Hadith-rejectors have no true understanding of the deep meaning of the Pure Quran they only have an artificial and superficial understanding of the Quran.
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Thank you all for your posts, there are interesting points made here...
I just have to say about the story of Yusuf it is the point of women making a move and as we know in the Quran God said "And she certainly determined him, and he would have inclined to her had he not seen the proof of his Lord. And thus that We should avert from him evil and immorality. Indeed, he was of Our chosen servants."
This could be interpreted that she could have had more power in that moment over him, and that generally women are the ones who have more control. I agree that no one is responsible for other peoples virtues but if you'd for example walk around insulting people and if someone insulted you back you cannot say you didn't have anything to do with his reaction - your conduct can trigger people's bad behavior.
Also Huruf, you said in 60.12 there is nothing about dress, but if you see there is "and that they will not disobey thee in any just matter"
and then we have 2431 "And tell the believing women to..." in this ayat the Prophet tells them something which they should obey - at least we have the advice to cover their chests, which is directly related to the dress code.So in conclusion, there is no difference in your opinion in clothing for women inside and outside of house i? It seems most think she can wear as she likes as long as she stays modest?
Peace mmmm,
You're right, the story of Yusuf can have several different lessons within it. One that it is not just women who have to be modest with respect to beauty/physical attractiveness. But also that women can abuse/use their own attractiveness. The lessons of the Prophets I find are always very straight to the point.
The dress code you mention in terms of 2431 is a principle in terms of private parts. The Quran gives us that and we have to make our choices as to how we can dress modestly in terms of our environment, setting etc. People know deep down if they are being modest and whether they are simply and purely trying to please themselves for the sake of fashion or whatever else.
Loose clothing is an important part of what is worn outside the house. That doesn't have to mean baggy or something, but respectable and what is considered modest.
It's just that some women would continue to wear the same type of modest clothing wherever we are. It is maybe easier to point out the types of clothing or the style that shouldn't/wouldn't be worn by either men or women.
That they try to convey their findings in case it might help someone else
Actually I don't think I can speak for other people. The more I read of this forum, the more its just like any other forum where people just want to continue standing up for their end of the argument. Which is probably part of human nature for mankind is contentious. This could be seen as ironic because some people like to think of ourselves as following a kind of guidance from God that makes us more distinct in terms of our behaviour.
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Of course, I have benefitted a lot from this and other forums. Posters here made me look differently at some things that would not have entered my mind before and I must say I feel grateful and has changed my attitude and my understanding, for the bbetter I think.
Peace,
In all honesty, as they say, - although I am honest in all my posts - my reason for posting here is more to do with standing for what Allah swt has told us in the Quran. There are some posts here which just seem to view things black and white and that's not always the case so I offer another opinion.
I am starting to find the discussion here only helpful in certain occasions and for certain topics. I feel like there is either a lot of repetition or a lot of conflict. I don't know how that helps. This is not directed to you per se, but its just because of what you said and I've been thinking about this recently.
I also feel like there is a lot of copycat stuff and I don't like that - like I sometimes get my own opinion just echoed back at me, which can be agreeing but its more like there is nothing where the person says they agree but they just restate in a different way what I said to them. This has happened to me several times now, it's like huh?... and then sometimes people are talking about peace but... what are they actually supporting in reality and how do they actually behave.
I guess I am really reflecting on the place of this forum as a way of communicating about the Quran and the actual outcome.
Just a series of thoughts that came to mind.
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It also signifies that we cover our head and our mind ....
rotfl sorry just had to. Just a word joke. No offence intended. Don't take it too seriously.
...who just want to follow the English style and not the way of the Prophets.
Are you from the Subcontinent? Seriously, what is "the English style"?? Please, I hope you don't imagine a conflict between an imaginary east and west.
Cheers
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Thanks, supportpeacenotwar I was starting to believe that too. It seems it's actually up to a person to decide what is the modest clothing for them depending on the environment.
I just don't know who shapes the environment...someone had to be first in everything once (weather it's the miniskirt or head cover)- should we really that heavily relay on it and be like the other "sheep"?
Sometimes I feel that no one is questioning some socially accepted beliefs - dogmas that society lives by (for example the "definition of oppressed women" and that we're trying to tweak the meanings to fit that current belief? Or maybe it is suppose to be so? -
Seriously, what is "the English style"??
Here's the answer to your question
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Smoking cigarettes - English style
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Drinking whisky - English style
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Keeping dogs, even sleeping with dogs - English style
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Eating pork ham chops - English style
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Shaving beard - English style
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Wearing shorts - English style
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Women going naked - English style
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Reading dirty magazines - English style
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Eating crabs and frogs - English style
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Swearing to God - English style
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Insulting Prophets - English style
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Using foul language - English style
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Killing unborn babies (abortion) - English style
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Doing sodomy (homosexualism) - English style
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Gambling and casinos - English style
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Going to cinemas - English style
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Eating with left hand - English style
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Overeating like a pig and never fasting - English style
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Pretty much every evil and stupid thing that people do, where did they learn it? English and European culture. The culture of the kafirs - who are declared as impure and unclean in the Quran
O you who believe! Verily the pagans (non-Muslims) are impure
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Thanks, supportpeacenotwar I was starting to believe that too. It seems it's actually up to a person to decide what is the modest clothing for them depending on the environment.
I just don't know who shapes the environment...someone had to be first in everything once (weather it's the miniskirt or head cover)- should we really that heavily relay on it and be like the other "sheep"?
Sometimes I feel that no one is questioning some socially accepted beliefs - dogmas that society lives by (for example the "definition of oppressed women" and that we're trying to tweak the meanings to fit that current belief? Or maybe it is suppose to be so?Of course nobody has to be sheep. And that is also onr of the reasons which change occurs in the world, someties for something worse, sometime for something better. Concerning dress, I sincerely think, for women, "in the first world" in the last cenutry has gone for the better. We just have to think the way women had to force themselves inside corsets, which prevented them from breathing normally and which caused widespread fainting, you know, women are so delicate, they faint. Today women can dress as they like and be comfortable without calling attention. The fact that there are fashions which are abhorrent does not detract from the fact that it is perfectly possible for women to dress unasummingly and comfortably, and even nicely without having to undergo torture. Shoes are another chapter. ?How many women have spoilt thier feet and spine because of the usage of narrow highheeled shoes as a duty, for the sake of a job or for the sake of a husband or whatever. Today there are shoes which are an assault on health an to my taste also on beauty, but on the other hand you can shoe comfortably and nicely without calling attention. Most women today wear trousers which is far more comfortable than those skirts which were narrow or would fly open with movements or wind.
So, completely agree that we do not have to follow fashion for the sake of fashion if there is no meaningful advantage. But it seems that fashion is something universal and no civilasation escapes it. Neither the islamic ones. What we women, an eventually men, must strive for is that whatever be the fashion there is room in it for sensible clothing that protects, gives comfort and is nice looking and fitting. There are always people that would try anything new. It is their temperament and they also have a right to feel comfortable with their personality. It also helps to may be find better ways to satisfy our needs and tastes. The negative side is very important but I think it is derived from economic and manipulative and social engineering factors in which obviously the wellbeing of people is completely disregarded.
In fashion there intervenes covetousness, but also something more sinister like the obssession on making people, but very, very particularly women slaves to the opinion of others about how they are sexy attractive or mere loosers.
Salaam
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Peace,
In all honesty, as they say, - although I am honest in all my posts - my reason for posting here is more to do with standing for what Allah swt has told us in the Quran. There are some posts here which just seem to view things black and white and that's not always the case so I offer another opinion.
I am starting to find the discussion here only helpful in certain occasions and for certain topics. I feel like there is either a lot of repetition or a lot of conflict. I don't know how that helps. This is not directed to you per se, but its just because of what you said and I've been thinking about this recently.
I also feel like there is a lot of copycat stuff and I don't like that - like I sometimes get my own opinion just echoed back at me, which can be agreeing but its more like there is nothing where the person says they agree but they just restate in a different way what I said to them. This has happened to me several times now, it's like huh?... and then sometimes people are talking about peace but... what are they actually supporting in reality and how do they actually behave.
I guess I am really reflecting on the place of this forum as a way of communicating about the Quran and the actual outcome.
Just a series of thoughts that came to mind.
A froum is just another possibility to communicate and since it is free for all, with some moderation, thank God, you can get anything for good or for bad. I do not bother with the bad, I am not anbody's guardian, and I try to profit from the good as much as I can.
I think it is important, frommy point of view forums are about the best things that the internet has brought for people who want to discuss and learn with freedom and nobody telling you what you should dare and what you should not dare. We are not going to find gems every day, but the gems that come up from time to time are worth the while for however long. As to good manners. Sure there are very polite and respetful posters. So let us keep that and not bother with the rest. On the other hand let us not forget either that written exchanges do not allow to see faces and expresions of people. We may get the feeling of harshness when possibly there is none, because when it is face to face, there are smiles, their are gestual expressions which give a different tone to the whole.
I would stick to the good and care for the good things and forget the others. It is the best thing even from the point fo view of being kind to those who look tu us unkind.
Salaam
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Thanks, supportpeacenotwar I was starting to believe that too. It seems it's actually up to a person to decide what is the modest clothing for them depending on the environment.
I just don't know who shapes the environment...someone had to be first in everything once (weather it's the miniskirt or head cover)- should we really that heavily relay on it and be like the other "sheep"?
Sometimes I feel that no one is questioning some socially accepted beliefs - dogmas that society lives by (for example the "definition of oppressed women" and that we're trying to tweak the meanings to fit that current belief? Or maybe it is suppose to be so?Peace mmmm,
NP. I'm not entirely sure what you mean by that point about dogma - but I believe in the West, women are just as responsible for the "oppressive" nature they still face, as men are. Sometimes when you look at a lot of insults that can be thrown at women such as "slut" or things like that - it will be women calling other women this. However, if a man says that insult, then it will be seen as sexist.
If we refer to fashion - women are apparently more liberated, with more rights now but they are doing exactly the same thing they were doing centuries ago. Huruf mentions corsets in the past which was a type of fashion for women. Interestingly, "oppressive" countries have comfortable and loose clothing for women at all times. While the West has much more "constrictive" and uncomfortable clothing that is deemed appealling.
That same harmful fashion is still going on today and women now are buying it in an apparently such educated, free and liberal environment. As well a lot of expectations of what women need to conform to. I don't get it - why are women doing this to themselves? Is it really just the men that oppress women or do women do that to themselves/each other as well? Maybe its the way Western fashion is and is one of the consequences of vanity.
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A froum is just another possibility to communicate and since it is free for all, with some moderation, thank God, you can get anything for good or for bad. I do not bother with the bad, I am not anbody's guardian, and I try to profit from the good as much as I can.
I think it is important, frommy point of view forums are about the best things that the internet has brought for people who want to discuss and learn with freedom and nobody telling you what you should dare and what you should not dare. We are not going to find gems every day, but the gems that come up from time to time are worth the while for however long. As to good manners. Sure there are very polite and respetful posters. So let us keep that and not bother with the rest. On the other hand let us not forget either that written exchanges do not allow to see faces and expresions of people. We may get the feeling of harshness when possibly there is none, because when it is face to face, there are smiles, their are gestual expressions which give a different tone to the whole.
I would stick to the good and care for the good things and forget the others. It is the best thing even from the point fo view of being kind to those who look tu us unkind.
Salaam
Peace huruf,
I was actually going along a different point in my post but nevermind, I'll deal with this. I don't think its just that people can't see each other. I mean that's why voice chat is more popular - you still don't need to see the person but you can hear intonation etc in voice which is important for discussing. I think the kind of thing I'm talking about goes on everywhere and is an issue with human beings - I never really meant that it wasn't.
I am just looking at the way in which people discuss Islam and then looking back at Allah's swt teachings and I am just reflecting, nothing wrong with that.
I also get a vibe of competitiveness and unfairness in general in terms of debate and discussion. Competitiveness on a personal basis not just in terms of the discussion. Like I said, it's not just this place, it's everywhere and definitely this exists face to face as well.
Not just the impolite people but just the whole nature of this forum or any forum. I don't think this is isolated to free minds, I think its everywhere. I don't think its about Muslims or Quran only, I think its about human beings. As with any place where humans get together, there will be competitiveness and unfairness - but the irony is we are discussing the Quran. And I wonder how much I am learning here because whenever I go away and reflect and ask for Allah's swt help in learning from the Quran - I get much more out of it than I do here. This could be a lesson for me. Allah knows best. This could be a little bit about the stage in my spiritual path as well. So, I think you should know that's where I'm coming from.
Something I'd like to end my post on, it's not meant to be answered - why does Allah swt mention the way most of mankind is ungrateful and its essentially getting at the point most of mankind doesn't really care, is this just referring to non-Muslims or even just those that aren't Quran only...? I'm not sure we can say that. It may refer to most human beings in general.