What is God's role with Born Disabled?
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Peace Savage-Carrot
I'm neutral in this thread and medical is not my field, but as moderator you may also as neutral as you can, so the members in this forum can feel comfartable.
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People also used naturally occurring small pox scabs to protect themselves from smallpox with some dying after...your point doesn't stand. Apparently according to you, everyone should've just died of small pox rather than do anything about it because doing anything other than waiting for a miraculous healing is an unforgivable sin. O
Knowledge during our lives is evolving (for most people) which is a fact of life. This is how we learn. You want to call that substandard go ahead. Just don't proclaim that going to a doctor is an unforgivable sin which as justamuslim pointed out, is forbidding what God did NOT forbid. You have no verse that says so...applying liberal doses of literal extremism to verses does not cut it.
I'm just surprised at the black and white picture being painted to such an extent. It reminds me of certain people talking about walking to places rather than flying because if God had wanted man to fly, He'd have given them wings. Which is all well and good really, whatever floats their boat...at least they don't stand around on a pulpit calling down hellfire on airplanes, pilots, cabin crew and the people who fly in the death birds.Please read and naswer the previous post #106
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Peace Savage-Carrot
I'm neutral in this thread and medical is not my field, but as moderator you may also as neutral as you can, so the members in this forum can feel comfartable.
I'm not moderating this thread, I'm participating in it.
Please read and naswer the previous post #106
What has this got to do with going to a doctor being an unforgivable sin according to you? Where does it say that? If you want to discuss 'vaccination scams', we can start a new thread.
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Aoa Nadia & justamuslim
You must have a patient of a saint (no pun intended). Debating with someone for almost 12 pages when they won't answer a simple question regarding Down's syndrome. Then I suppose modern medicine has not found a cure for someone who is full six short of half a dozen.
Regards -
Ws SL,
I'm just a newbie, it's justamuslim that's probably chucked her pc out the window by now. Or phone.
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God says that going to a doctor is a grave sin?
Yes. When Allah says He would not forgive associating the doctors with Him when He is the Curer and none but He is, as Curer unto you.
Is it not a grave sin, then? It is. Where do you differ?
I am sure being that you truly follow God Alone and have read the Koran, you know the consequences of attributing things to God. And also making false accusations without evidence.
Where is the question of false accusation when you are questioning how it is possible to cure life threatening diseases without application of human medical knowledge? Is it not true? Don't you question God's ability to heal, cure, or eradicate any affliction? If you say you had not questioned say so, and my apologies to you in advance.
Again how am I full of hate towards God? Because I don't hold your hatred towards doctors and buy your baseless, false claims that means I hate God and have full of hate towards God alone? Is this what you are saying?
How many times do i need to tell you, you hatred os towards God Alone against God Also. Don't you understand the difference in the meanings between GOD ALSO and GOD ALONE? If you really don't, tell me. I apologise for having started a debate with you.
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MM IS THE REASON BEHIND DS
Justamuslim
Your post #78 with topic "About medication" that constituted 25 paragraphs. I wanted to give you detailed answer to you to each and every paragraph so that you would know the drugs and the doctors who prescribed MM drugs are the sole reasons for DS and I started this in my post # 85. But then in your next post, you side tracked again to God Hate, God Alone, and God Also subject. Then joined savage carrot messing up all discussion and you stayed as a silent spectator.
Now it is between you and me to deal with the subject Down Syndrome caused by the doctors alone. Until our exchanges of opinions are over, I will ignore savage carrot completely.
For your comfort I cut and paste here the answer #85 I started for your post #78.
MM is the sole Cause for Down Syndrome
Justamuslim, you wrote
Every medication has side effects - some fatal, life threatening, causing permanent harm. in the United States, when you pick up medication from the pharmacy, they give you a list of potential side effects for that medication.Sister, I hope we will both not get offended or feel other than peace. Allah would deliver us from our inconsistencies.
Since you are a medico first I would like to hear from you the basic, general and fundamental scientific reason or through common sense as to the cause of adverse effects for any single medicine. I am sure you should be able to say from scientific angle. If you fail to say then I will choose to answer you from both scientific angle and through common sense. Our discussion should enlighten so many who follow our exchange of views. If the side effects are life threatening, fatal causing permanent harm, then for the others it could be a slow poison, crippling him slowly and steadily; and in some with intermittent aggravated response. You will call it hypersensitivity reaction. On the one hand it is massive, immediate, rapid and instant killing organs or the person as a whole suddenly, or cripple him slowly with delayed hypersensitivity. The list of adverse effects given by the pharma people is all fraudulent, concealing most side effects lest it would alarm the patients. So let us enter the subject.
I will go through your entire post 25 paragraphs, One by one. By Allah you will find my answers subtle and agreeable. Before I proceed, I will wait for your answer.
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For you the same is the answer I had posted to justamuslim previous to this.
Okay.
Yes. When Allah says He would not forgive associating the doctors with Him when He is the Curer and none but He is, as Curer unto you.
Is it not a grave sin, then? It is. Where do you differ?
This is why I said previously
How does God touch you anyways? Is it all magic Can God cure through a doctor? Is it all magic or does He or can He use other sources to do so? The answer is obvious.
Can God cure someone based on the actions the person took i.e. going to a doctor and learning how to deal with his issue? Of course He can. Is there a possibility the patient would die regardless, of course there is. That doesn't mean that one shouldn't take all the help they can get and keep themselves informed so that they can make the right calls at whatever moment they need to make it. There is a process to everything. No one here is saying a patient believes the doctor is a god that cured someone and God had nothing to do with it, except you. This way of thinking is extreme and quite dangerous.Case in point I had a post natal infection which was serious to the point of a steadily increasing fever over a period of 5 days to a 106 when they took my temp at the hospital. The process involved meant I received antibiotics to deal with the infection, medicine to bring down the fever which could've done lasting damage had it continued etc etc. If I had followed your guidelines for how to deal with a fever which was to accept my impending death in a prone position and lift nary a finger to help myself, I wouldn't be posting right now. Could I have been cured miraculously? A possibility which may have crossed some people's minds as they lay there. Didn't really cross mine since I was too busy dying. Exceptions exist, but to say the exceptions are the rule and God decided it was time to die for the rest when they could've been saved and make no mistake, they definitely can be saved through certain processes...is a very dangerous thing to advise. To call it an unforgivable sin is beyond the pale.
Where is the question of false accusation when you are questioning how it is possible to cure life threatening diseases without application of human medical knowledge? Is it not true? Don't you question God's ability to heal, cure, or eradicate any affliction? If you say you had not questioned say so, and my apologies to you in advance.
No one can argue that there are things we know of now of processes and how they occur that we didn't previously. There is too much evidence for anyone to sanely argue that medical knowledge/advances are all a crock of bull. To say we don't need any of that because it's an unforgivable sin, we'll just rely on our wet cloths and comfy beds to cure stuff is extreme.I can't imagine those who'd believe this and keep their kids or themselves at home when they have a raging fever and not get medical attention. I would advise against this, though it's ultimately one's own choice.
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Can God cure someone based on the actions the person took i.e. going to a doctor and learning how to deal with his issue? Of course He can.
A person by inspiration feels he should be rid of his uneasiness even while the affliction is in the destructive power form i.e., as the disease force starts building up causing first distinct energy disturbance that reflects in his mental equilibrium. As a result, off and on he becomes mentally tired, non comprehensive, cloudy and irritable with very short lucid intervals. The entire human race from birth to death is in some sort of mind level disturbance. This goes on for a long long period, disease force growing ever stronger, with shortening of lucid intervals, finally causing structural damage to the cells and tissues and organs of the body. This structural affection is the onset of pathology i.e. physical stabilisation of the diseases. The MM system cannot understand the disease force but only after when the disease force have gained enough strength beyond cure with destruction of organs and organelles. Unless the mind level affection of the pathogenic force and cloudiness is removed there is no cure to diseases because, MM does not know anything about this. If God is the ultimate power, then believe in the highest form of power as it guides you through inspiration by the leave of Allah. If you ignore this guidance, the MM will have no option but surgical removal of the ailing organ and organs one after another, until finally you become a shell of bones and skin. See the direction of learning skills of the MM? Not at all in curing and making the organs to bounce back to life.
Allah only sees in you if you take Him as Helper and Protector or not? If you obey and turn to Him, He would not only protect and cure him of his diseases but also teaches Him of His Wisdom to cure Him. Otherwise MM will take us to the D Day.
Is there a possibility the patient would die regardless, of course there is. That doesn't mean that one shouldn't take all the help they can get and keep themselves informed so that they can make the right calls at whatever moment they need to make it. There is a process to everything. No one here is saying a patient believes the doctor is a god that cured someone and God had nothing to do with it, except you. This way of thinking is extreme and quite dangerous.
Case in point I had a post natal infection which was serious to the point of a steadily increasing fever over a period of 5 days to a 106 when they took my temp at the hospital. The process involved meant I received antibiotics to deal with the infection, medicine to bring down the fever which could've done lasting damage had it continued etc etc. If I had followed your guidelines for how to deal with a fever which was to accept my impending death in a prone position and lift nary a finger to help myself, I wouldn't be posting right now. Could I have been cured miraculously? A possibility which may have crossed some people's minds as they lay there. Didn't really cross mine since I was too busy dying. Exceptions exist, but to say the exceptions are the rule and God decided it was time to die for the rest when they could've been saved and make no mistake, they definitely can be saved through certain processes...is a very dangerous thing to advise. To call it an unforgivable sin is beyond the pale.
No one can argue that there are things we know of now of processes and how they occur that we didn't previously. There is too much evidence for anyone to sanely argue that medical knowledge/advances are all a crock of bull. To say we don't need any of that because it's an unforgivable sin, we'll just rely on our wet cloths and comfy beds to cure stuff is extreme.I can't imagine those who'd believe this and keep their kids or themselves at home when they have a raging fever and not get medical attention. I would advise against this, though it's ultimately one's own choice.
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Seems like I need to add Poll in this post. hmm Ideally, I would vote for justamuslim and savage_carrot. bravo
Personally, I do try to avoid some of the medicines (sleeping pills, distress pills etc..) but will not agree that whole modern medicines are work of evil. In fact like I said before, I believe that the diseases and sickness are work of evil and discovery of medicines is blessing of God. Story narrated by justamuslim regarding a man in flood is absolutely bang on in this topic. God does not want us to sit back and say "God is our protector and he will look after us". A BIG NO. It is same like we stop EATING and say God will look after us. God has set up system for everything and we have to attempt and follow the system. Not doing any attempt will be against God.
Peace
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A person by inspiration feels he should be rid of his uneasiness even while the affliction is in the destructive power form i.e., as the disease force starts building up causing first distinct energy disturbance that reflects in his mental equilibrium. As a result, off and on he becomes mentally tired, non comprehensive, cloudy and irritable with very short lucid intervals. The entire human race from birth to death is in some sort of mind level disturbance. This goes on for a long long period, disease force growing ever stronger, with shortening of lucid intervals, finally causing structural damage to the cells and tissues and organs of the body. This structural affection is the onset of pathology i.e. physical stabilisation of the diseases. The MM system cannot understand the disease force but only after when the disease force have gained enough strength beyond cure with destruction of organs and organelles. Unless the mind level affection of the pathogenic force and cloudiness is removed there is no cure to diseases because, MM does not know anything about this. If God is the ultimate power, then believe in the highest form of power as it guides you through inspiration by the leave of Allah. If you ignore this guidance, the MM will have no option but surgical removal of the ailing organ and organs one after another, until finally you become a shell of bones and skin. See the direction of learning skills of the MM? Not at all in curing and making the organs to bounce back to life.
Allah only sees in you if you take Him as Helper and Protector or not? If you obey and turn to Him, He would not only protect and cure him of his diseases but also teaches Him of His Wisdom to cure Him. Otherwise MM will take us to the D Day.
Pretty sure they didn't remove my uterus when they treated me since I had kids after that. But well done on not responding to anything in my previous post. What is MM anyways...modern medicine? Modern man? Modem Mangled?
Seems like I need to add Poll in this post. hmm Ideally, I would vote for justamuslim and savage_carrot. bravo
Personally, I do try to avoid some of the medicines (sleeping pills, distress pills etc..) but will not agree that whole modern medicines are work of evil. In fact like I said before, I believe that the diseases and sickness are work of evil and discovery of medicines is blessing of God. Story narrated by justamuslim regarding a man in flood is absolutely bang on in this topic. God does not want us to sit back and say "God is our protector and he will look after us". A BIG NO. It is same like we stop EATING and say God will look after us. God has set up system for everything and we have to attempt and follow the system. Not doing any attempt will be against God.
Peace
Agreed, and one should def try to avoid taking anything that is needlessly useless, seen some get hooked on common painkillers even. Though I won't say no to an anti-nausea pill when my dad drives us anywhere. Saves paying for cleaning the inside of the car.
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Seems like I need to add Poll in this post. hmm Ideally, I would vote for justamuslim and savage_carrot. bravo
Personally, I do try to avoid some of the medicines (sleeping pills, distress pills etc..) but will not agree that whole modern medicines are work of evil. In fact like I said before, I believe that the diseases and sickness are work of evil and discovery of medicines is blessing of God. Story narrated by justamuslim regarding a man in flood is absolutely bang on in this topic. God does not want us to sit back and say "God is our protector and he will look after us". A BIG NO. It is same like we stop EATING and say God will look after us. God has set up system for everything and we have to attempt and follow the system. Not doing any attempt will be against God.
Peace
There is no need to put to vote because the majority would go with the flow of things. Only in the long run the truth would become evident before them but then it would be too late.
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Pretty sure they didn't remove my uterus when they treated me since I had kids after that. But well done on not responding to anything in my previous post. What is MM anyways...modern medicine? Modern man? Modem Mangled?
While I talk about millions all over the world whose uterus were removed along with ovaries, you talk about your uterus. You are lucky. It is because of such of your answers I ignore the contents of post as you do not read my posts before typing. You should take care to listen to my posts; I do not see any point answering you. Do not think otherwise.
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Aoa
The entire human race from birth to death is in some sort of mind level disturbance.
& does that apply to you as we'll ( would explain your posts) if so how do you know that your thinking or understanding is not effected by your "mind level disturbance".
Regards
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While I talk about millions all over the world whose uterus were removed along with ovaries, you talk about your uterus. You are lucky. It is because of such of your answers I ignore the contents of post as you do not read my posts before typing. You should take care to listen to my posts; I do not see any point answering you. Do not think otherwise.
Millions of women's womanly parts were removed because the doctors were chop happy evil satanists? I love the flair for the dramatic, and the lack of logic. You responded to my post with a rant that did not touch on any of what I said except a repetition of doctors are evil, adding a twist of systematic organ removal for god knows what irrelevant reason other than to bring in more histrionics the MM will have no option but surgical removal of the ailing organ and organs one after another, until finally you become a shell of bones and skin. See the direction of learning skills of the MM? Not at all in curing and making the organs to bounce back to life.
I'd listen to your posts if they had a musical soundtrack to them. Preferably plenty of drums and bass, so I can drown out the thoughts of facepalming repeatedly.
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Seems like I need to add Poll in this post. hmm Ideally, I would vote for justamuslim and savage_carrot. bravo
Personally, I do try to avoid some of the medicines (sleeping pills, distress pills etc..) but will not agree that whole modern medicines are work of evil. In fact like I said before, I believe that the diseases and sickness are work of evil and discovery of medicines is blessing of God. Story narrated by justamuslim regarding a man in flood is absolutely bang on in this topic. God does not want us to sit back and say "God is our protector and he will look after us". A BIG NO. It is same like we stop EATING and say God will look after us. God has set up system for everything and we have to attempt and follow the system. Not doing any attempt will be against God.
Peace
You believe in the concocted stories that does not befit Allah's warnings and the catastrophes that followed them all in various communities all over the world described in Quran. To relieve one symptom of a disease temporarily, how many evil effects a patient is made to undergo. Allah says turn to Him in repentance of your sin of having associated doctors to Him, and with Him and He would deliver you from affliction. If you do not turn freeing yourself from associating to God, you will keep earning the evil of what your own hands have wrought until you come to the death bed of intensive care. There you will cry out in pain, 'O God, I believe you alone; save my life! And relieve me of my pain!' You know what Allah would do? He would sit back and would say 'A BIG NO!' Read the Ayat and then vote
- And of no effect is the repentance of those who continue to do evil deeds until death faces one of them and he says "Now I repent;" nor of those who die while they are disbelievers. For them We have prepared a painful torment.
Fear Allah now! Do not follow other that the Curer!
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Millions of women's womanly parts were removed because the doctors were chop happy evil satanists? I love the flair for the dramatic, and the lack of logic. You responded to my post with a rant that did not touch on any of what I said except a repetition of doctors are evil, adding a twist of systematic organ removal for god knows what irrelevant reason other than to bring in more histrionics the MM will have no option but surgical removal of the ailing organ and organs one after another, until finally you become a shell of bones and skin. See the direction of learning skills of the MM? Not at all in curing and making the organs to bounce back to life.
I'd listen to your posts if they had a musical soundtrack to them. Preferably plenty of drums and bass, so I can drown out the thoughts of facepalming repeatedly.
How poor logic! Listen with fun and frolic at what is being told from the truth happening around in their own vicinity. Listen to this
- And if there had been a Quran with which mountains could be moved from their places, or the earth could be cloven asunder, or the dead could be made to speak it would not have been other than this Quran. But the decision of all things is certainly with Allah. Have not then those who believe yet known that had Allah willed, He could have guided all mankind? And a disaster will not cease to strike those who disbelieve because of their evil deeds or it settle close to their homes, until the Promise of Allah comes to pass. Certainly, Allah does not fail in His Promise.
You want to listen to this, in the part of forum where Allah's Name is praised much, with music and drums with fun? Then you remember this ayat!
- And who is more unjust than those who forbid that Allah's Name be glorified and mentioned much in Allah's Mosques and strive for their ruin? It was not fitting that such should themselves enter them except in fear. For them there is disgrace in this world, and they will have a great torment in the Hereafter.
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Aoa
& does that apply to you as we'll ( would explain your posts) if so how do you know that your thinking or understanding is not effected by your "mind level disturbance".
Regards
Brilliant! I am only turning to Allah in repentance so that He guides me. What about you? Would you repent and follow in the same way?
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Millions of women's womanly parts were removed because the doctors were chop happy evil satanists? I love the flair for the dramatic, and the lack of logic. You responded to my post with a rant that did not touch on any of what I said except a repetition of doctors are evil, adding a twist of systematic organ removal for god knows what irrelevant reason other than to bring
It is on the other hand you love the dramatised stories of the people such as flood, boat, helicopters etc., repetition is the only choice while speaking the truth because the Truth is the same and cannot be changed to false hood until such time you come out of the intoxication of MM and begin to see logic. I hope you understand.