What is God's role with Born Disabled?

justamuslim

After my explanation to your query you seem to pose the same question over and over again...

When I tried explaining you little by little starting from my # post 87, without answering you drove me back to provide evidence that you hated God. Now suddenly you jump back to MM subject and say "I am explaining this and that!" You see my post I have given 2272 which says about mentioning God Alone, makes the haters angry. Even now I say I am against "God-Also" category. Calling you as God hater is wrong I know. I am referring you as God Alone hater. Read 14 and see for yourself if you could seek the Help of others other than the God?

First confirm and fix which subject you want to discuss and then stick to that topic.

So what you are saying is that it is my fault that you have not answered my questions.

An honest person speaks his truths clearly and simply. I asked you a simple question. How is Down syndrome caused by doctors? You are yet to answer. Instead you have been all over the place with your rambling and calling me God hater and God alone hater and so on and on.

You make allegations about me and expect me to remain silent? Why don't you stop blaming me and answer my question which I keep asking over and over again because you are yet to answer. How is Down syndrome causd by doctors? What drug or vaccine is the cause of down syndrome? Can you provide references.

I brought up Down syndrome as an example as it is the most common occurring chromosomal condition. There is a long list of chromosomal disorder. Turners, klinefelters, DiGeorge syndrome, etc.

There are deformities to the fetus from exposure to infections such as chickenpox, CMV, toxoplasmosis, etc.

Fetuses who are exposed to smoking, alcohol, cocaine, heroin, caffeine, high levels of mercury and many other environment factors are affected and born with disabilities.

so again, how are doctors responsible for disabilities which is what you said. Instead of accusing me of hating God, and God alone and being a God also person, calling doctors evil shaytan and alledging that going to the doctor is an unforgivable sin, why not answer the questions simply.

Again, I will ask

how are chromosomal disorders like Down syndrome caused by doctors?
how are doctors responsible for birth defects or disabilities caused by exposure of chickenpox virus during pregnancy?
how are doctors responsible for in utero exposure of caffeine, smoking, alcohol?

Can you answer the above questions in simple manner without rambling on. I want a straight forward answer from you.

unknownuser

Sorry it's just interupting.

I never involved in the discussion because I'm not a medical practicer, but just observating it.

The funny is sis justamuslim repeated her questions many many times for nearly one week ;D

drfazl

So what you are saying is that it is my fault that you have not answered my questions.

An honest person speaks his truths clearly and simply. I asked you a simple question. How is Down syndrome caused by doctors? You are yet to answer. Instead you have been all over the place with your rambling and calling me God hater and God alone hater and so on and on.

You make allegations about me and expect me to remain silent? Why don't you stop blaming me and answer my question which I keep asking over and over again because you are yet to answer. How is Down syndrome causd by doctors? What drug or vaccine is the cause of down syndrome? Can you provide references.

I brought up Down syndrome as an example as it is the most common occurring chromosomal condition. There is a long list of chromosomal disorder. Turners, klinefelters, DiGeorge syndrome, etc.

There are deformities to the fetus from exposure to infections such as chickenpox, CMV, toxoplasmosis, etc.

Fetuses who are exposed to smoking, alcohol, cocaine, heroin, caffeine, high levels of mercury and many other environment factors are affected and born with disabilities.

so again, how are doctors responsible for disabilities which is what you said. Instead of accusing me of hating God, and God alone and being a God also person, calling doctors evil shaytan and alledging that going to the doctor is an unforgivable sin, why not answer the questions simply.

Again, I will ask

how are chromosomal disorders like Down syndrome caused by doctors?
how are doctors responsible for birth defects or disabilities caused by exposure of chickenpox virus during pregnancy?
how are doctors responsible for in utero exposure of caffeine, smoking, alcohol?

Can you answer the above questions in simple manner without rambling on. I want a straight forward answer from you.

I have already started replying to you. Have you not read my reply in # 115? Will you start replying now at least so that you cam understand in a simple way? This way is the best way even non medical people would get benefited. Doctors are responsible for all the three questions you had posed here? Reply to post # 115.

I will simply ignore all your companions and answer only you. MM DOCTORS ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE WORLD HEALTH HAZARD.

If you again ask the same question ignoring # 115, you accept you are in no mood to get into discussion for reasons you will only know. From this point I ignore savage, oneandonly, stilllearning, completely to concentrate teaching the interested people how MM catastrophe plaguing the mankind, using you.

savage_carrot

Great. So after repeatedly not responding to the content in my posts, you say you'll start ignoring my posts laugh

justamuslim

MM IS THE REASON BEHIND DS

Justamuslim

Your post #78 with topic "About medication" that constituted 25 paragraphs. I wanted to give you detailed answer to you to each and every paragraph so that you would know the drugs and the doctors who prescribed MM drugs are the sole reasons for DS and I started this in my post # 85. But then in your next post, you side tracked again to God Hate, God Alone, and God Also subject. Then joined savage carrot messing up all discussion and you stayed as a silent spectator.

Now it is between you and me to deal with the subject Down Syndrome caused by the doctors alone. Until our exchanges of opinions are over, I will ignore savage carrot completely.

For your comfort I cut and paste here the answer #85 I started for your post #78.

MM is the sole Cause for Down Syndrome

Justamuslim, you wrote
Every medication has side effects - some fatal, life threatening, causing permanent harm. in the United States, when you pick up medication from the pharmacy, they give you a list of potential side effects for that medication.

Sister, I hope we will both not get offended or feel other than peace. Allah would deliver us from our inconsistencies.

Since you are a medico first I would like to hear from you the basic, general and fundamental scientific reason or through common sense as to the cause of adverse effects for any single medicine. I am sure you should be able to say from scientific angle. If you fail to say then I will choose to answer you from both scientific angle and through common sense. Our discussion should enlighten so many who follow our exchange of views. If the side effects are life threatening, fatal causing permanent harm, then for the others it could be a slow poison, crippling him slowly and steadily; and in some with intermittent aggravated response. You will call it hypersensitivity reaction. On the one hand it is massive, immediate, rapid and instant killing organs or the person as a whole suddenly, or cripple him slowly with delayed hypersensitivity. The list of adverse effects given by the pharma people is all fraudulent, concealing most side effects lest it would alarm the patients. So let us enter the subject.

I will go through your entire post 25 paragraphs, One by one. By Allah you will find my answers subtle and agreeable. Before I proceed, I will wait for your answer.

Can you tell me where in this post of yours that you have answered my questions? Can you highlight the parts. You keep making allegations claiming that doctors are the sole cause of Down syndrome but can you explain how? What did the the doctors do that lead to this chromosomal disorder? What medication or vaccine or whatever your claim and can you provide references?

Instead of going off on your rambling, why don't you explain to us all here what medication or vaccine or what doctors did that caused this chromosomal disorder?

stillearning

Aoa

This is becoming hilarious

Again, I will ask

how are chromosomal disorders like Down syndrome caused by doctors?
how are doctors responsible for birth defects or disabilities caused by exposure of chickenpox virus during pregnancy?
how are doctors responsible for in utero exposure of caffeine, smoking, alcohol?
MM is the sole Cause for Down Syndrome

So there you are folks that has answered your questions, the logic, the intellect and the amount of factual information is breathtaking. How on earth can there be any doubt left now. AMAZING!

supportpeacenotwar

Maybe its the way that Drfazl has presented his beliefs/evidence/opinions that has caused the response to him - some people think its extreme or harsh. But - I've seen others present opinions in a harsh way either being pro or anti homosexuality, or even just being pro-Quran - there can be people who say to us why can't you accept all religions, why just one? Then we could all live more peacefully if we all accepted the validity of each others religions... apparently. To them we may seem extreme, because we want to establish the validity of solely one way. (Although we recognise that other religions have some elements of truth here and there.)

And the thing is the way some people are saying drfazl can't give explanations for certain topics and then things just starting to get more antagonistic in terms of the style of the discussion - and some may disagree, but lets face it there are different styles of discussion and as human beings we can tell the difference instantly. Hence, that's the reason I choose to stay out of certain types of discussion.

Or there is also a bit of mockery - what about atheists when they ask about Jonah and the whale in the Quran? And we might say well we don't know the entire story or the possibilities, we trust God. What drfazl is doing is somewhat similar.

And atheists would also say to us we repeated the same questions but they give the same apparently 'unfulfilling' response, even though it is a response from our beliefs, but it is not the one they want. I'm just saying, there are different ways of looking at this.

I haven't read too much of what drfazl says to know how much I agree with him. I agree with trust in God but I believe God gives us different methods for healing although there is an industry that people should be aware of. But I just felt like I wanted to add that, to help (if it does help) the 'underdog'.

justamuslim

Maybe its the way that Drfazl has presented his beliefs/evidence/opinions that has caused the response to him - some people think its extreme or harsh. But - I've seen others present opinions in a harsh way either being pro or anti homosexuality, or even just being pro-Quran - there can be people who say to us why can't you accept all religions, why just one? Then we could all live more peacefully if we all accepted the validity of each others religions... apparently. To them we may seem extreme, because we want to establish the validity of solely one way. (Although we recognise that other religions have some elements of truth here and there.)

And the thing is the way some people are saying drfazl can't give explanations for certain topics and then things just starting to get more antagonistic in terms of the style of the discussion - and some may disagree, but lets face it there are different styles of discussion and as human beings we can tell the difference instantly. Hence, that's the reason I choose to stay out of certain types of discussion.

Or there is also a bit of mockery - what about atheists when they ask about Jonah and the whale in the Quran? And we might say well we just don't know the entire story or the possibilities, we trust God. What drfazl is doing is somewhat similar.

And atheists would also say to us we repeated the same questions but they give the same apparently 'unfulfilling' response, even though it is a response from our beliefs just not the one they want. I'm just saying, there are different ways of looking at this.

I haven't read too much of what drfazl says to know how much I agree with him. I agree with trust in God but I believe God gives us different methods for healing although there is an industry that people should be aware of. But I just felt like I wanted to add that, to help (if it does help) the 'underdog'.

Have you read drfazls other posts besides the ones here on this thread? He makes claims calling doctors shaytan and anyone who sees a doctor is committing a sin and it is unforgivable and so on. These are not just differences in view points similar to having a discussion or disagreeing views on homosexuality for instance.

I beg to differ that what drfazl is doing is similar to atheist asking about whale and Jonah. Drfazl has made himself clear.

So if some person here listens and is influenced by all this preaching by drfazl and he gets bitten by a poisonous snake but doesn't seek medical attention and ends up dying, I sure would be interesting in knowing what your position would be.

Before supporting "underdog" (if I understood you correctly), you might want to know who and what you are supporting.

Drfazl here ultimately has to answer to God (not me) at the end as each of us here are personally accountable and responsible for our actions.

stillearning

Aoa supporteacenotwar

Admire your concern for an underdog, however this is not a football, soccer or cricket match.
Plus I doubt he considers himself to be an underdog after all according to him we are with the shaitan and he has God on his side. So really there is no contest really (whatever the contest is)
drafzal has made some really v unpleasant comments & outrageous claims both dangerous and offensive see quote from justamuslim below

so again, how are doctors responsible for disabilities which is what you said. Instead of accusing me of hating God, and God alone and being a God also person, calling doctors evil shaytan and alledging that going to the doctor is an unforgivable sin, why not answer the questions simply.

Hence if you support him you think doctors are evil and those visiting a them are sinners. That's virtually most of the human race done for.

Regards

supportpeacenotwar

Peace justamuslim

I didn't actually say I was supporting Drfazl as an 'underdog' (that might not be the best choice of word, like I've said to stilllearning I'm not sure what the word is in this scenario) - I meant that the way we are looking at how drfazl presents a strong argument in favour of point x, could be similar/seen in a simialr way by other people when we present a strong argument in favour of God or the Quran.

I understand that drfazl is talking about health - but from other people's opinions what we say can still be highly contentious because they will say in the wrong hands the Quran is a 'warriors manual' etc.

The point about homosexuality - is about the way someone passionately goes for a strong stance on a particular argument related to homosexuality. In these cases, anyone who disagrees with a X or Y opinion, it can be viewed in a similar way to the way drfazl strongly agrees with his opinion.

And the point about pro-Quran - lets face it, our beliefs can be considered very contentious - from an outsider perspective - verses on fighting, verses on disbelievers that can be taken without caution and more with hostility for anyone non-Muslim etc. Yes, we would say that's wrong, but some will say look at all those who have apparently 'acted upon' the Quran or take such hostility. I think they are ignoring the nature of humanity, but I am referring to their outsider perspective.

I did not say that what drfazl is doing is like an atheist asking about Jonah and the whale. It appears you have missed my point. My point is that other people could take our approach to trusting in God, believing what they might call 'ludicrous' or simply wrong in terms of the Jonah and the whale story in the same way some people receive drfazl's MAIN argument. Not his personality, not his asides but his MAIN argument. That's what I'm getting at.

My point is fairly subtle - I hope I have explained that more clearly.

What I'm getting at - is that strongly supporting one opinion happens in many discussions with many topics and that the same attitude some may have o drfazl, others could easily have of us because of our position on Islam etc.

I haven't read his other posts on here no - and I disagree with him when he says that but look at what you just said

"a doctor is committing a sin and it is unforgivable and so on."

that's what I'm getting at - other people would look at us saying Dying in a state of shirk, where one rejected the Oneness of God, is unforgivable. And they can easily have a similar view of us. I know the topic is different, but the sentiment is not hugely different...

This goes back to the point I made just above. And it also refers to outsider and insider perspective as well. Actually, I think it's an interesting way of looking at it.

I'm not sure drfazl is responsible for someone else's decision to avoid seeking medical attention. However, I do disagree with that and yes it can be an issue but surely the thing to do is to encourage drfazl to put disclaimers with what he says or something similar. I can read many things about dangerous herbs or medicine you can use, if I use them it still makes me responsible unless someone in a profession, with the authority to do so, told me that I had to use it according to their professional opinion for my situation. Even then you can refuse although the person may be responsible.

Also I think people should be presenting a counter argument, it's the way I saw it unfolding me that prompted me to make that post. You also just said that each of us is responsible for our actions - exactly, so the people who choose to follow drfazl based on what they've seen here are responsible. drfazl is responsible for giving out bad information in terms of answering God, if thats the case, but not necessarily someone elses actions.

Peace stillearning,

Thank you, but no, I am not supporting his opinion/evidence/belief. underdog may have been an inappropriate word. I'm not sure what the word is in this situation but I am not cheering drfazl on in his opinions. In fact, my whole argument is that there are different ways of looking at this discussion and discussing it and so I don't think its so startling that someone has radical views on something like this given the amount of contentious views that people would accuse us of having because we believe in the Quran.

savage_carrot

Maybe its the way that Drfazl has presented his beliefs/evidence/opinions that has caused the response to him - some people think its extreme or harsh. But - I've seen others present opinions in a harsh way either being pro or anti homosexuality, or even just being pro-Quran - there can be people who say to us why can't you accept all religions, why just one? Then we could all live more peacefully if we all accepted the validity of each others religions... apparently. To them we may seem extreme, because we want to establish the validity of solely one way. (Although we recognise that other religions have some elements of truth here and there.)
Apples and oranges really. If someone says going to a doctor is committing an unforgivable sin according to God while insisting his methods are the best cures for various illnesses also in accordance with God which involves nothing more than lying in a bed and waiting for the inevitable... is firstly patently wrong as there is no such verse in the quran, one would have to take verses out of context and then push them to the fullest extent of literal extremism while taking huge liberties with the interpretation...in a nutshell basically someone saying Allah is a moon god the quran says so. Secondly, it is irresponsible and dangerous.

And the thing is the way some people are saying drfazl can't give explanations for certain topics and then things just starting to get more antagonistic in terms of the style of the discussion - and some may disagree, but lets face it there are different styles of discussion and as human beings we can tell the difference instantly. Hence, that's the reason I choose to stay out of certain types of discussion.
The discussion style here is ignoring what a person writes and claiming to respond by a wall of text (sometimes just some random conspiracy article off the internet claiming that should explain everything) that continues marching blithely forward obliviously. This is not a different style of discussion. It isn't a discussion. Some people might have just let him do that on the privacy of his own threads had this not involved misinformation of a very basic type, namely attributing something to God with no evidence as of yet and advising people to lie still and hope for the best in cases of illnesses.

Or there is also a bit of mockery - what about atheists when they ask about Jonah and the whale in the Quran? And we might say well we don't know the entire story or the possibilities, we trust God. What drfazl is doing is somewhat similar.

Apples and oranges again. Knowledge is given to us for a reason, for us to use it within reason. There are things we don't know, can't know or will not know. Does this mean we can never know anything? Drfazl is contesting all medical knowledge/advances; calls it sinful and evil and can't defend it. Who can?

And atheists would also say to us we repeated the same questions but they give the same apparently 'unfulfilling' response, even though it is a response from our beliefs, but it is not the one they want. I'm just saying, there are different ways of looking at this.
No, really there isn't a different way of looking at this, it involves facts that have bucketloads of evidence behind them. God created life, God created our minds to comprehend life; to see His signs and to know them. In the horizons and in ourselves, covering external and internal. Denying basic scientific facts isn't something we can do. We don't sit around and say the sun revolves around the earth when we know it to be the opposite.

I haven't read too much of what drfazl says to know how much I agree with him. I agree with trust in God but I believe God gives us different methods for healing although there is an industry that people should be aware of. But I just felt like I wanted to add that, to help (if it does help) the 'underdog'.
Sure there are different methods for healing, the key word being method which involves a process...not sure if doing nothing is a process and by extension, a method.

Man_of_Faith

Peace,

Well, I agree with the background to drfazl's ideas, that we should praise God that a treatment worked, because without God no medication would work. It is true that a placebo can have the same effect as the real drug, because of the faith that you actually had this drug administered and that it will heal you. So to simply believe you will become better by something has its effect on the illness.

I find that many times prayers to God and that the body can heal itself is better than to consume drugs with possible harmful side-effects. Most drugs have harmful side-effects even if the symptoms are not induced, it may leave permanent damage. It may not be noticeable, but you could only see them if you could feel the difference both with or without taking it.

Yet I would not call doctors or other medical staff for workers of evil. I think there should always be an alternative and often it is better to go in to the doctor if you break a leg or get some acute viral/bacterial infection. We should only know that it is God who makes the treatment the doctors perform on us work or not. They just give something out of experience and it works on us, although sometimes it does not.

However, God added all these substances for a reason on our game field. We must draw some line somewhere, if we are talking about restricting substances to our disposal then we should stop drinking coffee or other drinks, maybe even sugar, because also have effects similar to drugs. And we should stop using toothpaste as this is kind of medicine.

But back to drfazl's points; we should try to avoid medications when we can and not get into a evil spiral where we use pills for every problem we have in life. We should first of all get the root of our problem instead of countering the superficial symptoms, ie headache or another issue. Many of the problems can be solved by a change in lifestyle.

Many psychological disorders can be cured without medication, but lots of drugs are prescribed anyway. However, when it comes to this type of drugs they are usually causing a lot of side-effects and if they can be avoided I think this is better.

I think when it comes to the topic you/we discuss we need to keep a healthy balance. And we need to remember that without God these drugs would do nothing. And with a positive attitude they will have an even stronger effect. Sometimes you can simply give a sugar pill and the outcome would be the same as the real stuff.

I think you treat brother Fazl a bit unfairly harsh. Well, I am not sure if he has offended you at some point. We should remember that we are (hopefully) muslims and we need to discuss things in a fairly peaceful and civilized manner.

Apart from calling doctors pawns of evil I am not sure what he has done wrong? Is he spreading misinformation you say? Well, I think much of what he says is true.

His lifestyle and if he has been fine for 15 years without healthcare and only through Faith healing I must say I am impressed. It may tell how much simple honest Faith in God can do for a human being.

Just hope he knows what he is doing in case he would be involved in a serious accident and would get badly wounded. Would he refuse treatment for doctors to patch him up, ie seal open wounds? Else he may as well die due to loss of blood.

I would not say healthcare is 'haraam' and incompatible with true Faith in God, but we should remember who really heals us. Also I think prayer healing can be a firsthand alternative and what we should do first of all. We should always keep in mind that without God these drugs may not have the intended effect, we are always in the hands of God's will. And like drfazl said, drugs can cause permanent damage and should be used wisely and only when needed.

God bless you

supportpeacenotwar

Peace savage_carrot,

My point is not about whether drfazl is correct or incorrect. I'm not saying it's in the Quran. If he is saying we cannot take any type of medical treatment, then I disagree. I am saying other people's perspective of us, because we can easily be considered contentious when we are exclusively promulgating Islam etc, that they can view us in the same way as we view drfazl 'one way' approach. It isn't so strange to understand that. Some ex-Muslims have a very bad opinion of Islam and the Quran because of the supposed dangers of it that they have seen witnessed, such as beating wives when mistranslations have occured (I think its part of a test in the Quran, but that's another story that there is not point in sharing here) - I know because some tell me about it.

I've addressed some of those points already, and your points are as though I agree with drfazl. As though I have to agree with drfazl in order to say what I did in my post. That is so much like those non-Muslims who get accused of being Muslim when they defend Muslims against the far right.

The final point you made I never even meant that what drfazl was saying was a method at all... that was in fact the exact opposite of what I meant. That I believe there are ACTUAL methods for healing at times that we can use, so in that case I think (I'm not entirely sure) that's where I disagree with him.

This point I've made isn't so important to me that I need to go on elaborating it. But the simple fact is, I am not agreeing with drfazl, I am holding a mirror up to this situation and making points about how OTHER PEOPLE can view pro-Quran etc compared to HOW WE view some people. I've already said that in a post prior to the one you made as well. I am sorry if you don't like that. They may also be quite subtle points, I understand that. Maybe I should refrain from posting such things in this thread then - I understand when certain things are unwelcome.

supportpeacenotwar

Peace Man of Faith,

I really agree with what you have to say. I would have put the points across with similar words as well. Thanks for sharing that post with us.

justamuslim

@manoffaith,

Re

I think you treat brother Fazl a bit unfairly harsh. Well, I am not sure if he has offended you at some point. We should remember that we are (hopefully) muslims and we need to discuss things in a fairly peaceful and civilized manner.

Apart from calling doctors pawns of evil I am not sure what he has done wrong? Is he spreading misinformation you say? Well, I think much of what he says is true.

Asking drfazl to back up his claims and asking him to provide evidence and support is not what I would consider being unfairly harsh. Do you consider holding a person accountable and responsible - harsh and unfair? In that case then God is most unjust and unfair!

And re

His lifestyle and if he has been fine for 15 years without healthcare and only through Faith healing I must say I am impressed. It may tell how much simple honest Faith in God can do for a human being.

I know atheists who have done fine a lot more than 15 years without seeking healthcare. So does this mean that not believing in God can do for a human being?

Also,I know many Christians who have been saved by Jesus. If we follow your reasoning to a conclusion then believing in Jesus and accepting Jesus in our lives will lead to salvation. It can do wonders. I know of many similar stories as the person who wrote of her experiences in this article
http//www.southasianconnection.com/articles/98/1/Encounter-with-Jesus-that-Changed-My-Life/Page1.html

re

And like drfazl said, drugs can cause permanent damage and should be used wisely and only when needed.

There is nothing that drfazl has said that we don't know about or that your doctor won't tell you. What he has done is take some known facts or some knowledge and then basically what he has done is mix truth with falsehood. He has taken verses from the Koran (Gods words) to give support to his views.

Drfazl here has not only called doctors evil and going to a doctor is a sin, he alleged that I am full of hate towards God alone and also hate God. You don't find anything wrong with that? And also he has claimed that doctors are responsible for chromosomal conditions like Down syndrome and all disabilities are due to doctors. In another thread, he said that ovaries are an empty sac till age of 12 and that you don't need males and other such thing. You can read for yourself. You don't find his claims and statements to be misinformation???

Manoffaith, you speak so harshly about hadiths holding the kind of views that you have when there are many things contained in the volumes of Bukhari that may very well be what Muhammed said and clearly do not contradict the Koran and are in a sense virtuous and yet you seem quite supportive of drfazl coming to his defense (so it seems) and also referring to him in your own thread which you started and which I am awaiting to read. Why don't you reference hadiths that some of which are very much true?

newmoon

Peace oneandonly,justamuslim, savage carrot, stillearning, supportpeacenotwar, Man of Faith

Given the global scenario on health care, all systems put together from your own experience

can you say in a single word say say whether it is

IMPROVING OR DETIORATING

If you agree that it is IMPROVING then finally our wretched end would be in the Lofty

INTENSIVE CARE UNIT at the behest of specialised (doctors) saviours who

would ask you to TRUST upon the ONLY SAVIOUR, in the fag end but in vain.

If you agree that it is DETEORATING then putting aside the petty issues allow Dr.Fazl to say

his views for betterment of man kind to follow.

Regards

Balachandran

savage_carrot

Peace savage_carrot,

My point is not about whether drfazl is correct or incorrect. I'm not saying it's in the Quran. If he is saying we cannot take any type of medical treatment, then I disagree. I am saying other people's perspective of us, because we can easily be considered contentious when we are exclusively promulgating Islam etc, that they can view us in the same way as we view drfazl 'one way' approach. It isn't so strange to understand that. Some ex-Muslims have a very bad opinion of Islam and the Quran because of the supposed dangers of it that they have seen witnessed, such as beating wives when mistranslations have occured (I think its part of a test in the Quran, but that's another story that there is not point in sharing here) - I know because some tell me about it.
Yes that is what he's saying amongst other things. Dr Fazl's 'one way' approach includes two things, firstly, saying the quran says so and so when it doesn't, and secondly contesting all medical knowledge as being wrong and sinful to accept. When you say what drfazl is doing is somewhat similar to atheists etc is not similar because this isn't an opinion discussion as such. It involves facts which means that he needs to tell us where the reference to what he's claiming exists in the quran ,and the second part which is to give evidence for his anti medical claims.

I've addressed some of those points already, and your points are as though I agree with drfazl. As though I have to agree with drfazl in order to say what I did in my post. That is so much like those non-Muslims who get accused of being Muslim when they defend Muslims against the far right.
I don't really know what you agreed with in the post I responded to other than the last part where you said I haven't read too much of what drfazl says to know how much I agree with him. And then explained the trust in God bit. I'm pretty sure everyone would agree with that if that's all drfazl was saying. In fact I was pretty sure that you hadn't really read the other claims as is proven in your next post because it's really difficult to agree to something like that without putting forth something in it's defense.

The final point you made I never even meant that what drfazl was saying was a method at all... that was in fact the exact opposite of what I meant. That I believe there are ACTUAL methods for healing at times that we can use, so in that case I think (I'm not entirely sure) that's where I disagree with drfazl.
And I was saying drfazl has no method. Wasn't saying that you said he had a method, was bringing it back to him is all.

This point I've made isn't so important that I need to go on elaborating it. But the simple fact is, I am not agreeing with drfazl, I am holding a mirror up to this situation and making points about how OTHER PEOPLE can view pro-Quran etc compared to HOW WE view some people. I am sorry if you don't like that. They may also be quite subtle points, I understand that. Maybe I should refrain from posting such things in this thread then.
If someone makes the claims drfazl makes, it is not like the subtle points you are raising. As in, i don't think this is a similar situation as I've explained. That is my opinion, you can disagree of course. Sorry if I don't like your subtle points? It's got nothing to do with like or dislike, I just don't see the relevance to the drfazl situation. If you think/feel you should clarify further, please go ahead. I'm not sure what to say to the last bit, other than I don't mind the posts/contributions?

justamuslim

If you agree that it is DETEORATING then putting aside the petty issues allow Dr.Fazl to say

his views for betterment of man kind to follow.

If I understand you correctly, what drfazl has to say and if we are to listen to his views, it will lead to betterment of man kind to follow?

I just want to be sure that I am understanding you right.

newmoon

If I understand you correctly, what drfazl has to say and if we are to listen to his views, it will lead to betterment of man kind to follow?

I just want to be sure that I am understanding you right.

Yes If GOD ALONE WILL one would be able to understand

Man_of_Faith

Peace justamuslim,

I am supporting drfazl's alleged and apparent Faith in God. I am not all out supporting his ideas about healthcare as I thought you would have understood by reading my previous post.

I have not found much to gain from reading hadith, I have looked through some of it, but I deemed it a waste of time reading after some hundred pages. Even if a tiny portion might be true, the risk of trusting the information is not worth it in my opinion. There are better "hadith" than the hadith of Muhammad. And I am not interested in how many stones Muhammad used to wipe his ass when he answered the "call of nature". About a chapter or so just about observations on how the prophet performed his toilet needs.

Why are you telling me to refer to hadith? A rhetorical question I suppose.

And yes, I mentioned drfazl in my thread. Some of his information is worth reading. The background of his ideas is not bad, even if he seems to go to one extreme with it.

I am not sure about his 15 years of Faith healing and if it is just pure luck, but I still commend him for relying so much on Faith. Like I mentioned in my previous post and if he got serious injuries you may see that I believe he needs hospital care or die in case of an accident.

Surely you must see that I am not trying to talk against drugs ultimate use, only saying that we may consider reduction of its usage. Do not tell me your blunt style has caused you to become blind of what it being written or not here.

God bless you