Bird's meat vs. Pig's meat
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The pig is an animal that conjures up the EARTHLY/GREEDY mentality.
Why do we defame pigs so much? To justify its prohibition.
Pig stereotypes are given by men. Pigs are not dirty animals. In the wild, Pigs are actually quite clean. They are observed to defecate/urinate in seprate areas from where they reside.
Pigs do wallow in the mud. This is because they have no sweat glands. The mud cools their skin. What is so wrong with this? After all, Allah told us that we can use the soil to cleanse ourelves via Tayammum (56).
Pigs conjure up negative stereotypes because man places them in small pens with overcrowding. Thus, they are not able to maintain seperate bathroom and living areas and are forced wallow in mud that, due to the pen and overcrowding, may contain feces. However, this is counter to their natural behavior.
Don't eat PIG- don't be earthly/greedy/excessive
Eat bird - Be light as a feather able to fly above all obstacles(emotions).I am stating that the LITERAL understanding is incorrect.
IMO, this is a stretch. There are two types of verses in Quran literal and allegorical (37). The prohibition of eating swine is an ayat-e-muhkamaat (literal).
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Peace be upon you SA,
sorry to say, but I dont see the link between pig and bird.
No need to be sorry, your position is yours and will be respected.
It still seems to me that forbidding pigs meat for such reason is ilogical..
No, I am not stating this as a case to forbid pigs, I am saying that it is used as SYMBOLISM
Don't eat PIG- don't be earthly/greedy/excessive
Eat bird - Be light as a feather able to fly above all obstacles(emotions).I am stating that the LITERAL understanding is incorrect.
Please tell me if you agree to that understanding.
peace to u,
I can understand the simbolism and it sounds good. But interms of its validity I think Quran is quite straight. Further more if I am not mistaken, someone gave an alternative translation such as "rotten meat" or "not fresh" , which sounds more logical. The whole europian ppl eats porc but I find muslims to be more greedy and dishonest than them. It proves that the consumption pig mean doesnt cause such behavior.
I think would go along the "rotten meant" choice untill somthing better gets revealed..
peace
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Peace be upon you SA,
sorry to say, but I dont see the link between pig and bird.
No need to be sorry, your position is yours and will be respected.
It still seems to me that forbidding pigs meat for such reason is ilogical..
No, I am not stating this as a case to forbid pigs, I am saying that it is used as SYMBOLISM
Don't eat PIG- don't be earthly/greedy/excessive
Eat bird - Be light as a feather able to fly above all obstacles(emotions).I am stating that the LITERAL understanding is incorrect.
Please tell me if you agree to that understanding.
peace to u,
I can understand the simbolism and it sounds good. But interms of its validity I think Quran is quite straight. Further more if I am not mistaken, someone gave an alternative translation such as "rotten meat" or "not fresh" , which sounds more logical. The whole europian ppl eats porc but I find muslims to be more greedy and dishonest than them. It proves that the consumption pig mean doesnt cause such behavior.
I think would go along the "rotten meant" choice untill somthing better gets revealed..
peace
Peace be upon you,
But isnt there a verse that says that you can eat it if your are starving and that if you eat without knowing its pork..God would Forgive you??
If it is rotten meat, then can you help me on this one?
Thanks, Peace
Sebs
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Just because we cannot come up with a logical reason for the prohibition of pork, does not warrant extreme interpretations.
What is so difficult about the following muhkamaat (literal) verse
Prohibited for you are animals that die of themselves, blood, the meat of pigs, and animals dedicated to other than GOD.
We cannot consume
(1)carrion
(2)blood
(3)pig
(4)an animal dedicated to other than GODIdolfree1,
Why are items 1,2, and 4 taken as LITERAL, while 3 is deemed SYMBOLIC? Quran says a verse either LITERAL or ALLEGORICAL, but not BOTH (37). -
Peace Sebs, all,
If it is rotten meat, then can you help me on this one?
The following verse contains a similar sentence than "lahma alkhinzir/the flesh of the swine" in 2173
- And for the Jews We have forbidden all that have claws; and from the cattle and the sheep We forbade their fat except what is attached to the back, or entrails, or mixed with bone. That is a punishment for their rebellion, and We are truthful.
WaAAala allatheena hadooharramna kulla thee thufurinwamina albaqari wa alghanami harramnaAAalayhim shuhoomahuma illa ma hamalatthuhooruhuma awi alhawayaaw ma ikhtalata biAAathmin thalikajazaynahum bibaghyihim wa-inna lasadiqoona
shuhoomahuma/their fat implies
shuhoom albaqari = the fat of the "baqari/cattle"
and
shuhoom alghanami = the fat of the "ghanami /sheep"
albaqari and alghanami are not adjectives for "fat".
If "ghanam, baqar and khinzeer" are adjectives for fat and flesh respectively , we should read
allahm alkhinzeer
alshshahm albaqar
alshshahm alghanam.These sentences are grammatically incorrect.
The article "al" in this sentence "lahm alkhinzeer" specifies the flesh of something ? The flesh of what? the response is the flesh of the swine.
1614 illustrates well the other position where the word after the flesh is its adjective
- And He it is Who has made the sea subservient. You eat from it tender fresh meat and take from it gems which you may wear. And on that very sea you see the ships roaming through the waves so that you might seek of His bounty and be appreciative.
Wahuwa allathee sakhkhara albahralita/kuloo minhu lahman tariyyan watastakhrijoominhu hilyatan talbasoonaha watara alfulkamawakhira feehi walitabtaghoo min fadlihiwalaAAallakum tashkuroona
See also 3512
According the context we can say
lahma khinzeerin (6145)
shahm baqar
shahm ghanamthat doesn't imply that khinzeer, baqar and ghanam are adjectives for fat and meat in the same way than tayr/birds for meat in 5621
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And meat of birds that they desire.
Wa lahmi tayrin mimmayashtahoona -
Say ?I do not find in what is inspired to me forbidden except that it be already dead, or blood, or the meat of pig, for it is foul; or what is corruptly dedicated to other than God.? Whoever is forced without seeking disobedience or transgression, then your Lord is Forgiving, Merciful.
Qul la ajidu feema oohiyailayya muharraman AAala taAAimin yatAAamuhuilla an yakoona maytatan aw daman masfoohan aw lahma khinzeerin fa-innahu rijsun aw fisqan ohilla lighayri Allahibihi famani idturra ghayra baghin wala AAadinfa-inna rabbaka ghafoorun raheemun
Hope that helps
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Peace sister Marie,
Very revealing clarifications...Thank u for posting them! It put a lot into perspective.
Nadia
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peace to all,
nothing happens without a reason. forbidding pig meat just like that doesnt sound reasonable. It sounds like God have a personal issue with pig..lol.
peace
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Peace,
I'm sure that in the future we will figure out why God has prohibited the flesh of swine. Just because we do not understand the reason behind something at this point in time, doesn't mean that we will never be able to grasp the reasoning behind it. What about those scientific verses in the Quran? Did people 1400 years ago understand those verses the same way we understand them now? I doubt it. However, I believe they must have strove to understand it by delving into the wonders of the universe, and perhaps this is why they advanced so rapidly in science. Maybe if we do our own research on Pigs we will find a reason behind the prohibition. Maybe its just a test? On the other hand it could simply be that this verse is mistranslated, I suppose the arabic speakers on this site would have to let us know.As to this part of the verse being allegorical, I don't think that is the case as the surrounding context seems literal. Furthermore, allegorical verses can be interpreted in many different ways, thus I think God would point out to us that this was allegorical especially if its a prohibition(after all God would know that this argument was going to take place). I think we have to watch out what we label as allegorical and literal, remember that none of us knows the truth, over every knowledgeable one, is God the most knowledgeable.
Peace
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Peace all,
- Say ?I do not find in what is inspired to me forbidden except that it be already dead, or blood, or the meat of pig, for it is foul; or what is corruptly dedicated to other than God.? Whoever is forced without seeking disobedience or transgression, then your Lord is Forgiving, Merciful.
Qul la ajidu feema oohiyailayya muharraman AAala taAAimin yatAAamuhuilla an yakoona maytatan aw daman masfoohan aw lahma khinzeerin fa-innahu rijsun aw fisqan ohilla lighayri Allahibihi famani idturra ghayra baghin wala AAadinfa-inna rabbaka ghafoorun raheemun
The adjective foul/rijsun concerns both dead, blood and flesh swine.
Here other examples
tools of affliction / Rijsun 590,
foul / Rijsun 6 145, 9 95
affliction / Rijsun 7 171
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Peace be upon you AMS377,
Why do we defame pigs so much? To justify its prohibition.
WHo is defaming the pig? The pig is only following the nature it was created to obey. But when we speak of SYMBOLISM, we have to look at how a certain thing ACTS so we can draw the proper understanding of the SYMBOLISM. Let me ask you, was the God Himself defaming pigs and apes when He said that he turned certain people into "apes" and "swine"?
Pig stereotypes are given by men. Pigs are not dirty animals. In the wild, Pigs are actually quite clean. They are observed to defecate/urinate in seprate areas from where they reside.
Pigs do wallow in the mud. This is because they have no sweat glands. The mud cools their skin. What is so wrong with this? After all, Allah told us that we can use the soil to cleanse ourelves via Tayammum (56).
Pigs conjure up negative stereotypes because man places them in small pens with overcrowding. Thus, they are not able to maintain seperate bathroom and living areas and are forced wallow in mud that, due to the pen and overcrowding, may contain feces. However, this is counter to their natural behavior.
So in 560, the Go dwas giving a compliment to the people by changing them into Pigs?
It is the NATURE of the pig that is SYMBOLICALLY being given to us, not that actual animal itself. There is nothing wrong with the pig, it is following its nature so that it can be a SIGN for us all, as do ALL ANIMALS.
(454) And in your creation, and what He scatters/distributes from a walker/creeper/crawler (are) evidences/signs to a nation being sure/certain.
Quote
Don't eat PIG- don't be earthly/greedy/excessive
Eat bird - Be light as a feather able to fly above all obstacles(emotions).I am stating that the LITERAL understanding is incorrect.
IMO, this is a stretch. There are two types of verses in Quran literal and allegorical (37). The prohibition of eating swine is an ayat-e-muhkamaat (literal).
Yes, and I take this verse regarding food prohibitions as being allegorical, ALL FOODS are permitted except what we prohibit upon ourselves (Pigs should be such a food because it is unhealthy)
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Peace be upon you AMS,
What is so difficult about the following muhkamaat (literal) verse
Prohibited for you are animals that die of themselves, blood, the meat of pigs, and animals dedicated to other than GOD.
We cannot consume
(1)carrion
(2)blood
(3)pig
(4)an animal dedicated to other than GODIdolfree1,
Why are items 1,2, and 4 taken as LITERAL, while 3 is deemed SYMBOLIC? Quran says a verse either LITERAL or ALLEGORICAL, but not BOTH (37).Correct, and I take the WHOLE VERSE as allegorical, I have not gained the understanidng of the other items of that list, but if you reflect on that list, how do you eat ANY meat without consuming some blood? And how do you know what a food had been "dedicated to" before it gets to you?
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Peace Idolfree1,
Correct, and I take the WHOLE VERSE as allegorical
Oh okay. I was mistaken, sorry.how do you eat ANY meat without consuming some blood
You're right. Quran has many verses about food prohibitions (2173, 51, 6118, etc.). But, the definitive verse on food is 6145. It is "definitive" due to its wording, "I do not find in the revelations given to me any food that is prohibited for any eater except". Thus, ONLY running/liquid blood is prohibited.And how do you know what a food had been "dedicated to" before it gets to you?
I pose a parralel to this question. 609 prohibits befriending people who fight you because of faith. It also forbids friendship with those that support the fighters. To parralel your question, how do you know if a person you wish to befriend supports the fighters?My point is that you are not punished for what you do unwillingly or unknowingly.
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Peace,
Unfortunately I accidently ate pork's meat today. I thought I was ordering just fried rice because the menu did not say pork was included in it...I feel awful reading this now. ?
I won't be eating Chinese every in my life now...bad bad experience.
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As'Salaam GreenLeaves,
Sorry to hear about your experience. I learned that you have to be very careful when eating out of your house. Some Chinese people do not even consider pork meat. I ordered Ma Po bean curd once and specifically asked the person taking the order if there was meat in it, she said, "No". When she brought it to me and I saw the pork in it I said, "I thought you said this had no meat in it", and she looked at me and said, "that's not meat, that's pork". lol Also, many Spanish restaurants put pork in just about every thing they cook, because they use it as a basic seasoning.
I make it a practice to basically eat meatless dishes if I am eating outside of my house. It may be a bit paranoid, but I feel safer that way.
Ma'Salaam,
Olu'sanya -
Peace,
I make it a practice to basically eat meatless dishes if I am eating outside of my house. It may be a bit paranoid, but I feel safer that way.
That's good advice and God Willing I'll do just that (except at Subway). The guy I spoke with on the telephone was Chinese and I could barely understand what he was saying and I am sure he did not understand me either as he just kept telling me what number (from the menu).
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Also, many Spanish restaurants put pork in just about every thing they cook, because they use it as a basic seasoning.
Peace Osunlaya,
Pork is very common here, not exactly to season, but yes, it is added to many dishes. You can imagime what means here to be vegetarian or moving to vegetarianism... -
Salaam Green Leaves,
I feel so bad for the experience you went through. Ask Allah to erase the experience from your mind yet keep the lesson alive!
But really, it is not just the pork. Think of the lard! It is widely used in non-Muslim countries in America, Europe and the Far East, etc. used even with vegetarian dishes! So it is still not safe to eat outside home 'cause one never knows!
Taj
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Also, many Spanish restaurants put pork in just about every thing they cook, because they use it as a basic seasoning.
Peace Osunlaya,
Pork is very common here, not exactly to season, but yes, it is added to many dishes. You can imagime what means here to be vegetarian or moving to vegetarianism...As'Salaam Alaykum Elena,
I can imagine your difficulty!
I have embarrassed friends when we have gone out to eat because they were uncomfortable with my interrogation lol of the waiters and waitresses. As Taj pointed out it is hard to be sure when you eat "out of your home". I put restaurants through the third degree about how they prepare food and what they are using when they cook, but since I'm paying for it I think I have the right to know.
In my experience, if the restaurant is a good one, then once you express to them your dietary requirements they will accomodate you.
What part of Spain are you in?
Ma'Salaam,
Olu'sanya