Can Adam/Even be a metaphor?
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The highlights above are from me.
It is the truth, we are all the PROGENY of Adam and he is our real COMMON ANCESTOR.
Peace,
KhalilThis insinuates that we were born from incest if Adam and Eve are our common ancestors, then their children must have engaged in sexual intercourse among one another. Genetic variation would be far too low for the species to last past a few generations. If you study evolutionary history, you will see that there is no such thing as a "first human.
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This insinuates that we were born from incest if Adam and Eve are our common ancestors, then their children must have engaged in sexual intercourse among one another. Genetic variation would be far too low for the species to last past a few generations. If you study evolutionary history, you will see that there is no such thing as a "first human.
Highlight is from me.
Adam and his wife were not the only humans. They lived among other humans in their community. Their children married the children of others within their community or other communities near them, thus no incest.
Besides, I never said there has been "such thing as a "first human"". verse 41 informs us that we were created from single cells.
O mankind, fear your Lord who created you from a single soul, and from it created its match, and spread many men and women from the two. Fear Allah in whose name you ask each other, and fear the womb-relations. Surely, Allah is watchful over you.
Peace,
KhalilPeace,
Khalil -
Adam and his wife were not the only humans. They lived among other humans in their community. Their children married the children of others within their community or other communities near them, thus no incest.
Peace,
KhalilDoes the Qur'an tell us this? Also, one other portion of my reply has not been addressed. You stated that Adam/Eve were not in heaven and that is an additional tale from hadith, but refer to the following verses
where are Adam and Eve in the following verses?
235
We said "O Adam! dwell thou and thy wife in the Garden; and eat of the bountiful things therein as (where and when) ye will; but approach not this tree, or ye run into harm and transgression."236
Then did Satan make them slip from the Garden, and get them out of the state of felicity in which they had been. We said "Get ye down, all (ye people), with enmity between yourselves. On earth will be your dwelling-place and your means of livelihood - for a time."From 236, it's quite clear they were not originally on earth.
So where were they (#1) and what evidence do we have from the scripture that they were present among a civilization of other people (#2)?
Peace
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Does the Qur'an tell us this? Also, one other portion of my reply has not been addressed. You stated that Adam/Eve were not in heaven and that is an additional tale from hadith, but refer to the following verses
where are Adam and Eve in the following verses?
235
We said "O Adam! dwell thou and thy wife in the Garden; and eat of the bountiful things therein as (where and when) ye will; but approach not this tree, or ye run into harm and transgression."236
Then did Satan make them slip from the Garden, and get them out of the state of felicity in which they had been. We said "Get ye down, all (ye people), with enmity between yourselves. On earth will be your dwelling-place and your means of livelihood - for a time."From 236, it's quite clear they were not originally on earth.
So where were they (#1) and what evidence do we have from the scripture that they were present among a civilization of other people (#2)?
Peace
Highlights above are from me.
1st Your own translation above which I highlighted red, talks about to get down YOU ALL, which is a plural YOU. The verse talks about a group of people to go down, i.e. Adam, his wife, and more people with them to go down. This means that there is a community of people.
2nd verses 235,36 talk about the garden and that THEY ALL to get DOWN from it. The Arabic
word used for GET DOWN YOU ALL, i.e. means to going down from a higher elevation to a lower one here on
Earth. It doesn't have anything to do with HEAVENLY, INNER PLANETARY, and or INNER GALACTIC travel. Besides, traveling in outer space, going up or down does not make sense, up or down compare to what?What I understand not just from this verse, but from a collective verses relating to this issue in the Qur'aan, is that Adam and his wife and his community used to live in high elevation forests/garden right here on Earth and after their disobedience and eating from the forbidden tree and losing their outer garments/fur as the consequence, they ALL had to migrate to lower lands.
3rd where do you get the NAME "Eve" from. It is not in The Qur'aan. ;D
Peace,
Khalil -
Highlights above are from me.
1st Your own translation above which I highlighted red, talks about to get down YOU ALL, which is a plural YOU. The verse talks about a group of people to go down, i.e. Adam, his wife, and more people with them to go down. This means that there is a community of people.
2nd verses 235,36 talk about the garden and that THEY ALL to get DOWN from it. The Arabic
word used for GET DOWN YOU ALL, i.e. means to going down from a higher elevation to a lower one here on
Earth. It doesn't have anything to do with HEAVENLY, INNER PLANETARY, and or INNER GALACTIC travel. Besides, traveling in outer space, going up or down does not make sense, up or down compare to what?What I understand not just from this verse, but from a collective verses relating to this issue in the Qur'aan, is that Adam and his wife and his community used to live in high elevation forests/garden right here on Earth and after their disobedience and eating from the forbidden tree and losing their outer garments/fur as the consequence, they ALL had to migrate to lower lands.
3rd where do you get the NAME "Eve" from. It is not in The Qur'aan. ;D
Peace,
KhalilI'm glad you noted the "all" portion - that is precisely why I considered Adam to be a symbol for mankind. Why would the entire community be punished for the disobedience of a single entity?
Regarding your second comment, whether or not the garden was at a high elevation or low elevation does not matter - whether high or low, the garden, according to you, is on earth. When you read "On earth will be your dwelling-place," it's only logical that they were not on earth. Even if I am on Mount Everest, I am still on earth.
My apology on the Eve reference - I am aware it is not the Quran, she is only referred as Adam's wife.
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Regarding your second comment, whether or not the garden was at a high elevation or low elevation does not matter - whether high or low, the garden, according to you, is on earth. When you read "On earth will be your dwelling-place," it's only logical that they were not on earth. Even if I am on Mount Everest, I am still on earth.
The Qur'aan, through numerous verses describes the start of the creation of human/INSAAN to be from Earthly materials. See 1526, 2312, 327, 5514, 41, 698, 7189, 396.
Peace,
Khalil -
The Qur'aan, through numerous verses describes the start of the creation of human/INSAAN to be from Earthly materials. See 1526, 2312, 327, 5514, 41, 698, 7189, 396.
Peace,
KhalilYes, exactly brother - so then, why is Adam not originally on earth? It doesn't fit the paradigm. This is what has led me to believe that Adam is a symbol for mankind, and Adam being a proper name doesn't necessarily equate him to a real person. He could be a character to represent human nature and man's relationship with God. By Surah 2's account, Adam and his spouse / "all" of what Adam represents were banished from a garden that was not on earth.
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Why do you say that that garden was not on earth?
Salaam
236
Then did Satan make them slip from the Garden, and get them out of the state of felicity in which they had been. We said "Get ye down, all (ye people), with enmity between yourselves. On earth will be your dwelling-place and your means of livelihood - for a time."Surah 2, Verse 36 infers that Adam was given earth as a new place to dwell. For coherency, it's only logical that he was not on earth prior to the order from God.
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I'm glad you noted the "all" portion - that is precisely why I considered Adam to be a symbol for mankind. Why would the entire community be punished for the disobedience of a single entity?
He the Exalted said "You both go down to Earth jointly departing from this place-Paradise.
Some of you people will be acting as enemy for some others. -
Peace,
God does not say the story about Adam is an allegorical one. As far as I have understood God is quite clear about what is an allegory and what is not in His Book.
Adam is an individual highlighted in this narrative, but as kgwithnob tells; they must have been quite a community exiled from this garden including Shaytaan.
Talking about how these events occurred is as discussing how the Paradise will be. It is difficult to fathom the experience after we have died. The afterlife is probably a bit different to what we are accustomed to here with a closer proximity to God and the world may be a bit fantasy-like, maybe with elements of "magic".
I am sure God did not use too complicated language when he revealed the Quran or people would scratch their heads and wonder what God is talking about. The events which are narrated in Quran about Adam and his exile is probably more complicated which is stated in Quran. God most likely used simplified language.
I can understand if the story about the tree might not carry a literal meaning but as a metaphor for something else. Yet it may be true and so on in a "fantasy world". Remember the tree was like a tree of knowledge, so they understood more when they had eaten from it.
Of course I am sure God already knew about the fact the humans would eat from the tree since He is all-knowing. It seems to have been a test all along. Why he created humans at all is something with Him.
Peace kgwithnob,
Your explanation about Adam seems plausible, but could you refrain from having a too confrontational or aggressive undertone in your posts. Or is it only me who get this feeling?
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Peace all.Sorry for interupting
Using Non-Muslim's evidence to proofing Quranic fallacies is something we must avoided.
3118 O you who believe do not take as an inner-circle any from besides yourselves; they will only disrupt you greatly. They wish that you
deviate; the hatred is apparent out of their mouths and what their chests conceal is even greater! We have made clear for you the
signs if you comprehend.I'm not study in athroplogy, but I believe of Adam and Hawa's existence because Quran was explaining if they're exist both literally or dictionaries.
Example
233 He said ?O Adam, inform them of their names,? so when he informed them of their names, He said ?Did I not tell you that I know the unseen of the heavens and the earth, and that I know what you reveal and what you are hiding??
This verse is very clear if Adam is exist
Plus this verse is don't need anykind of tafseer, becuase it's already clear understanding by just only by translation.There is Quranic verse which is "true" allegorical and still cannot easy to understand even with translation (mutasyabihat), the example is this
(QS 2431)
"And what posseses their right hand/maintain the oath"
This sentence cannot simply understand just by translation instead we must use tafsir.
Secondly, Yes I know if term "first human" forbidden in evolution science.Yeah maybe Adam is not first human but the first "homo sapiens" , the first human species who have more intellegence rather than it's predecessor.
I suggest that we must hold this motto
"Quran first then another science"
I mean before we study anykind of science, we must study the Quran first.It's because the Quran is can filtering the science what we must study.
The example is "Darwin Evolution".If we an atheist, maybe we believe that theory thus studying it, but if we have knowledge of the Quran before, then we can filtering that theory.
Salaam
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A man at any given point in time is in either of the two frames
- Governing his chest, belly and genitalia.
- Is governed by his chest, belly and/or genitalia.
In both frames a different brain of him is in the control of affairs
- Conscious brain in the first frame
- Stem brain --genitals and belly
- Emotional-Sub conscious brain
In the second frame, his right side will be active for most of the people.
What Satan did was to motivate, activate the right side of the brain and fascinate. He was successful because of the effect of subliminal imagery; the way he portrayed the "secreted advantages" of eating the fruit of the tree.
Stem brain took over the control, and he and following him, his wife did what he wanted of them. Result, they became naked and saw each others hidden lower area of the body.
Finding the result of their act; they immediately got out of the trance; and acted regaining the conscious control over their selves.
This episode is everyday drama we are watching all around. Qur'aan teaches to recognize our status of Khalifa; the governor of his body and not the one governed by his body. Thereby, Qur'aan is easy if we are not trapped in illusory gossips of so called men of wisdom.
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Yes, exactly brother - so then, why is Adam not originally on earth? It doesn't fit the paradigm. This is what has led me to believe that Adam is a symbol for mankind, and Adam being a proper name doesn't necessarily equate him to a real person. He could be a character to represent human nature and man's relationship with God. By Surah 2's account, Adam and his spouse / "all" of what Adam represents were banished from a garden that was not on earth.
230,
And when your Lord said unto the angels verily I am going to place a vicegerent/SUBSTITUTE on the Earth. They said you place therein one who will act corruptly therein and shed blood while we hallow your praise and glorify you! Allah said verily I know that you know not.
The history of evolution is full of countless substitutions of unfitted previous generations of different species by better fitted and more evolved ones. This is the law of creation which ALLAAH, swt, has ordained from the moment of start of creation, i.e. SUBSTITUTION/KHILAAFAT of less fitted/evolved by the better fitted and more evolved. This LAW has been taken place right here on the planet Earth from the beginning of creation and its process, i.e. the EVOLUTION. All species go through this process, with no exception, MANKIND/INSAAN included.
And the new more evolved generation comes right out of the previous/older one. It is not a brand new, out of NOWHERE creation. This Is a GENERAL LAW of evolution.Verse 230 above is exactly about the law of SUSTITUTION/KHILAAFAT regarding the evolution of human species. Adam, his wife, their children, and other members of his community/TRIBE are the new and more evolved generation of humans that inevitably replacing the old ones. That is why the angels questioning the process, because they have the memory of corrupted and blood shedding previous generations thinking, ?here we go again?, more corruption and bloodshed.
All I am trying to get across here is that the sectarians through their centuries of inaction regarding the progress of natural sciences and ignorantly rejecting the laws governing the CREATION and its process, the EVOLUTION, have been interpreting the word of GOD through pure conjecture and superstition. They think of GOD as a magician and a philosopher who is trying to make us understand things through "SYMBOLIC" stories, like the story of Adam. If adam was not a real person, then why GOD mentions his name 25 times in The Qur'aan among other real messengers? Just see 333 below as one example.
Verily GOD picked Adam and Noah and the family of Abraham and the family of ?Imraan over all the people.
Peace,
Khalil -
236
Then did Satan make them slip from the Garden, and get them out of the state of felicity in which they had been. We said "Get ye down, all (ye people), with enmity between yourselves. On earth will be your dwelling-place and your means of livelihood - for a time."Surah 2, Verse 36 infers that Adam was given earth as a new place to dwell. For coherency, it's only logical that he was not on earth prior to the order from God.
I do not see that at all. The translator plays with the Arabic word "arD" that can be earth and land and chooses earth which may look like a planet but that is not it. Nor is there any inference that the garden was located outside the "arD". And in the translation put forward a twist is given to the sintaxis whereby al "arD" is made to look something new, infact what is says is
And We said descend enemies of one another and for you "fil arD" (in the land, the ground) dwelling and sustenance up to a time. "Fil ard" comes up more times in the Qur'an and as far as I can remember means on the land, on the ground.
They were in a garden, a secluded protected place where they did not have to work the land or struggle or find dwelling for themselves, because everything was at hand or given. Now they will have to fend for themselves.
They were born on earth and tontinued to be on the earth. But instead of not having to struggle for anything, now they will have to do so.
Salaam
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I do not see that at all. The translator plays with the Arabic word "arD" that can be earth and land and chooses earth which may look like a planet but that is not it. Nor is there any inference that the garden was located outside the "arD". And in the translation put forward a twist is given to the sintaxis whereby al "arD" is made to look something new, infact what is says is
And We said descend enemies of one another and for you "fil arD" (in the land, the ground) dwelling and sustenance up to a time. "Fil ard" comes up more times in the Qur'an and as far as I can remember means on the land, on the ground.
They were in a garden, a secluded protected place where they did not have to work the land or struggle or find dwelling for themselves, because everything was at hand or given. Now they will have to fend for themselves.
They were born on earth and tontinued to be on the earth. But instead of not having to struggle for anything, now they will have to do so.
Salaam
Isn't "Jannat" used for the translated word "Garden" in 235? What is Jannat other than Paradise? So Adam and his spouse were banished from "Jannat" to "the land/the earth."
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Peace kgwithnob,
Your explanation about Adam seems plausible, but could you refrain from having a too confrontational or aggressive undertone in your posts. Or is it only me who get this feeling?
Dear Man of Faith,
I am sorry if you feel that way regarding my tone. Can you give me a few examples? I do apologize anyway. Try not be too sensitive. "zindegee jang ast jaanaa, bahri jang aamaadeh show". ;D
Peace,
Khalil -
Peace kgwithnob,
It is in your approach, I am not sure how to elaborate. It may simply be the way you are. Well I might have misunderstood your mood through all that text.
Sure I should not be sensitive as you said, but still... you are my brother. Peace.
Anyway, your addition to the Adam exile seems to be a viable theory. They must have been a whole community or God would not have used "get out of here, all of you". Logic says it must be a bigger number of people.
And I also agree with you that Adam was a specific person and not a generic term. Still down here all humans are referred to as "adam". But I guess it has to do with that we are the same "model" as Adam and nothing else.
From my philosophies and wild fantasies I have thought that our physical bodies were not shaped or the souls not assigned to our mortal bodies when the ancestor Adam "ate" from that tree and it triggered this whole trial. We were maybe without a vulnerable physical body before this occurrence as the Quranic tale say was approaching a forbidden tree. I also think death did not exist prior to that and it is just an invention for this trial. The souls are eternal unless God decides to destroy it I think and it is only the physical body in this life which "dies".
In this world, eternally lasting bodies could be possible, our bodies could renew themselves forever, but they do not, they are programmed to die through decay later on. It is obvious that "someone" created the living beings in the world like this. This is a further strengthening sign for me personally. God also says in Quran that in the creation there is a big sign.
I have long wondered how you make the proof of the existence of predecessors to the human race homo sapiens, for example, homo erectus fit with religion. Or the existence of dinosaurs or other ancient beings. I have been philosophizing on it but never found any plausible explanation. The closest were theories I read about in this thread. All this may be part of the plan to test the Faith of people.
In Iran the schools pretend as if predecessors to the human race never existed to not confuse the "religious" population. They hide the Truth by not adding knowledge about previous people which is wrong in my opinion. It is better to try to find a viable explanation instead, but of course the Shia Islam is based on just a bunch of fairy tales about grand and gracious imams who performed miracles and were infallible. They do not have the fundament to explain anything like evolution with their al-kafi hadith book and tons of books about the imams. Even evolutionary books are banned to some extent or at least toned down or inaccessible in schools.
Well, I did not intend to criticize Iran in here, but it was an example of instead of trying to work to solve a problem they ignore it as if the clear proof never existed. Religious dogma brickwall
God bless you
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Anyway, your addition to the Adam exile seems to be a viable theory. They must have been a whole community or God would not have used "get out of here, all of you". Logic says it must be a bigger number of people.
And I also agree with you that Adam was a specific person and not a generic term. Still down here all humans are referred to as "adam". But I guess it has to do with that we are the same "model" as Adam and nothing else.
Peace to all,
We still have to deal with one important issue, and that is that Adam was in "Jannat" as verse 235 confirms. This is why most translations translate fil arD as "earth," but either way, the issue is that Adam was banished from Jannat.
