Can Adam/Even be a metaphor?
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Peace kgwithnob,
It is in your approach, I am not sure how to elaborate. It may simply be the way you are. Well I might have misunderstood your mood through all that text.
Sure I should not be sensitive as you said, but still... you are my brother. Peace.
Anyway, your addition to the Adam exile seems to be a viable theory. They must have been a whole community or God would not have used "get out of here, all of you". Logic says it must be a bigger number of people.
And I also agree with you that Adam was a specific person and not a generic term. Still down here all humans are referred to as "adam". But I guess it has to do with that we are the same "model" as Adam and nothing else.
From my philosophies and wild fantasies I have thought that our physical bodies were not shaped or the souls not assigned to our mortal bodies when the ancestor Adam "ate" from that tree and it triggered this whole trial. We were maybe without a vulnerable physical body before this occurrence as the Quranic tale say was approaching a forbidden tree. I also think death did not exist prior to that and it is just an invention for this trial. The souls are eternal unless God decides to destroy it I think and it is only the physical body in this life which "dies".
In this world, eternally lasting bodies could be possible, our bodies could renew themselves forever, but they do not, they are programmed to die through decay later on. It is obvious that "someone" created the living beings in the world like this. This is a further strengthening sign for me personally. God also says in Quran that in the creation there is a big sign.
I have long wondered how you make the proof of the existence of predecessors to the human race homo sapiens, for example, homo erectus fit with religion. Or the existence of dinosaurs or other ancient beings. I have been philosophizing on it but never found any plausible explanation. The closest were theories I read about in this thread. All this may be part of the plan to test the Faith of people.
In Iran the schools pretend as if predecessors to the human race never existed to not confuse the "religious" population. They hide the Truth by not adding knowledge about previous people which is wrong in my opinion. It is better to try to find a viable explanation instead, but of course the Shia Islam is based on just a bunch of fairy tales about grand and gracious imams who performed miracles and were infallible. They do not have the fundament to explain anything like evolution with their al-kafi hadith book and tons of books about the imams. Even evolutionary books are banned to some extent or at least toned down or inaccessible in schools.
Well, I did not intend to criticize Iran in here, but it was an example of instead of trying to work to solve a problem they ignore it as if the clear proof never existed. Religious dogma brickwall
God bless you
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Anyway, your addition to the Adam exile seems to be a viable theory. They must have been a whole community or God would not have used "get out of here, all of you". Logic says it must be a bigger number of people.
And I also agree with you that Adam was a specific person and not a generic term. Still down here all humans are referred to as "adam". But I guess it has to do with that we are the same "model" as Adam and nothing else.
Peace to all,
We still have to deal with one important issue, and that is that Adam was in "Jannat" as verse 235 confirms. This is why most translations translate fil arD as "earth," but either way, the issue is that Adam was banished from Jannat.
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Also, if I may add, we must remember that clarity is not really the dilemma when dealing with the tale of Adam, because that story's purpose is not to provide us some scientific explanation for our origins, but rather to emphasize our transgressive nature as well as our relationship with God.
Now, yes the name "Adam" appears 25 times in the Quran, but a number of those references are not about Adam, but referencing "children of Adam" - is this supposed to be interpreted in biological terms (ie we can from only Adam and his wife)? This cannot be, because if this were the case, the lack of genetic variation would cause the species to die within a few generations. If you take the approach that there was a community of people, and Adam was among them, then it can fit the paradigm, but a community of people in which Adam was existing is just an assumption that is made, albeit a plausible one.
However, when we look at 235 and 236, we can see one thing is very clear Adam is in Jannat, and he is banished. Because he is in Jannat, I think the parsimonious theory is to consider him a symbol/character, a representation of mankind's nature and relationship with God. I think as far as clarity is considered, I want to remind that this story's purpose is to detail that and not to provide some phylogeny. When we see the phrase "children of Adam," we can look back at previous scriptures and note that this phrase was used in the past, as well as "children of man." I do not think this is supposed to be interpreted in biological terms, but rather, as Quran says that we were created from a single pair, it is to highlight that we all originate, indeed, from the same place, and that we should not divide amongst ourselves, but recognize one another as "brother and sister."
Back to the point the word "Jannat" is used in 235. From my understanding, that is not a loose reference to any earthly garden, but the Garden of Paradise. I used to think that perhaps Adam represents consciousness unique to our species alone, or he represents the "soul" (this two terms continue to be debated among philosophers, psychologists, etc.).
Is it a coincidence that "Adam" is a Hebrew name which means "Mankind" ?
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One more thing haha, I keep thinking and it's very interesting topic to me so I keep on having more thoughts! If I'm not mistaken, Allah says in the Quran that Adam was created from "dust." However, separately He states that man was created from multiple ingredients (dust, clay, water, etc). So this is another issue that may be relevant when reflecting upon the identity of Adam.
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All philosophical interpretations of the Qur?aanic verses, especially in regard to the CREATION and its process, the EVOLUTION, are nothing but the inevitable consequence of centuries of inaction and getting way behind in science, especially natural sciences. The Qur?aan is the book of GUIDANCE to the truth. It is not a book of PHILOSOPHY. All ?spiritual? talks if do not materialize towards the betterment of our everyday life, then they are worthless, even detrimental.
Peace,
Khalil -
All philosophical interpretations of the Qur?aanic verses, especially in regard to the CREATION and its process, the EVOLUTION, are nothing but the inevitable consequence of centuries of inaction and getting way behind in science, especially natural sciences. The Qur?aan is the book of GUIDANCE to the truth. It is not a book of PHILOSOPHY. All ?spiritual? talks if doe not materialize towards the betterment of our everyday life, then they are worthless, even detrimental.
Peace,
KhalilPhilosophy and religion are interlinked, not mutually exclusive. The Quran is a book of signs, guidance, I totally agree - it is not there to do our thinking for us. It can guide us, but ultimately we have to walk the path, and that path includes all that resides in this world, as well as within our minds. Free thought is precisely what has made the book glorious to me.
Regardless, we still haven't addressed the key issue was Adam in heaven or on earth? According to 235, he was in "Jannat." Can "Jannat" be any ordinary garden? From my understanding, it is specifically referencing Paradise.
Peace brother
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Philosophy and religion are interlinked, not mutually exclusive. The Quran is a book of signs, guidance, I totally agree - it is not there to do our thinking for us. It can guide us, but ultimately we have to walk the path, and that path includes all that resides in this world, as well as within our minds. Free thought is precisely what has made the book glorious to me.
Regardless, we still haven't addressed the key issue was Adam in heaven or on earth? According to 235, he was in "Jannat." Can "Jannat" be any ordinary garden? From my understanding, it is specifically referencing Paradise.
Peace brother )
highlights above are from me.
1st I agree. Man-made RELIGIONS and PHILOSOPHY are interlinked, or better to say, they are interlocked. Man-made religions cannot survive even for ?one minute? without philosophy. Yes, philosophizing the word of GOD has made some people to believe that even the prophet Mohammad, pbuh, did not exist, he is a metaphor and not a real person! rotfl
2nd the Arabic word ?JANNAT? means GARDEN, especially fruit garden. It is an
EARTHLY word that when the Arab human hears it he/she thinks about what it means, not where it is. GOD has used this particular word, JANNAT, in The Qur?aan mainly because what it means and what it reminds the people of. Thousands of years before the revelation of The Qur?aan, JANNAT was used in everyday people?s dialogue. Even the meaning of the word PARADISE reminds us of nice and fruitful EARTHLY gardens, but the paradise of the LAST DAY is yet to be created. It is a FUTURE event. Anyways, JANNAT is not a heavenly word. See the verses below, talking about the EARTHLY located JANNATs.2265-266, 134, 1791, 1832-33-35-39-40, 258-10, 3415-16, 509, 7112, 7816
Peace,
Khalil -
highlights above are from me.
1st I agree. Man-made RELIGIONS and PHILOSOPHY are interlinked, or better to say, they are interlocked. Man-made religions cannot survive even for ?one minute? without philosophy. Yes, philosophizing the word of GOD has made some people to believe that even the prophet Mohammad, pbuh, did not exist, he is a metaphor and not a real person! rotfl
2nd the Arabic word ?JANNAT? means GARDEN, especially fruit garden. It is an
EARTHLY word that when the Arab human hears it he/she thinks about what it means, not where it is. GOD has used this particular word, JANNAT, in The Qur?aan mainly because what it means and what it reminds the people of. Thousands of years before the revelation of The Qur?aan, JANNAT was used in everyday people?s dialogue. Even the meaning of the word PARADISE reminds us of nice and fruitful EARTHLY gardens, but the paradise of the LAST DAY is yet to be created. It is a FUTURE event. Anyways, JANNAT is not a heavenly word. See the verses below, talking about the EARTHLY located JANNATs.2265-266, 134, 1791, 1832-33-35-39-40, 258-10, 3415-16, 509, 7112, 7816
Peace,
KhalilVery interesting; thank you for showing me those verses. So essentially the translations are incorrect regarding "fil Ard" and "Jannat?" The most accurate translation is "land" and "garden."
What verses indicate that Adam was a member of a civilization of other people?
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I read the article on Free-Minds regarding Adam/Eve as a metaphor, however I have heard that apparently the only verses we can take as metaphor in the Quran are those that are explicitly stated as such. I always think that metaphors can also be implicit through reasoning, but hadith-followers state that those who follow the Quran alone begin to just twist and make things mean whatever they want, and there can be some truth in that (there is a way to go far too extreme in either case).
Anyway, can anyone please enlighten me on the Adam/Eve tale?
I call it a narrative since saying it is a tale implies it is a fiction.
It is a narrative that is explicit and it directly pertains to a literal reality.
Adam and Eve are flesh and bone bodies, which bodies are composed of members that are individual people like you and me. The Apostle Paul spoke of this kind of body in Ephesians 530 when he taught that converts to the Gospel of Jesus Christ became members of the body of Christ, of His flesh and of his bone. Paul wasn't speaking in a metaphor there. He literally defined a body of flesh and bone as a societal body. Early converts to Jesus Christ's teachings were literally giving life to a unique, distinct and real body of flesh and bone that had its own spirit. It is also my understanding that this is the resurrected body of Jesus Christ that Paul said he saw in his vision. This was the process of Paul's eyes being opened up to see that the resurrected body of Jesus was in fact the congregation of Saints who received spiritual life by way of the ministry of Jesus Christ. Their resurrection from spiritual death to spiritual life was the process of the resurrection of Jesus from physical death to physical life by way of His Spirit being received into the tabernacles of the early Saints.
So, similarly, when you try and take the Adam and Eve narrative in a direct, literal, plain, practical, non-symbolic and non-metaphorical manner, you need to know what a body of flesh and bone is so that you can take it that way. Just as the society of the early Saints were the resurrected body of Christ, so too is Adam a societal body of Saints gathered together into a unique and distinct congregation. And, in this case, not just any congregation. This group of individuals was given total dominion over ALL other forms of life. This was to be the ultimate governing society on this planet.
Adam is a group of men who are organized into a distinct body who are joined in a specific covenant that binds them together into a being of one flesh, just like a marriage covenant between a man and a woman binds them together into a single body of one flesh.
Likewise, Eve is a group of people who are organized into a distinct body who are joined in a specific covenant that binds them together into a being of one flesh. The difference here is this organization is a helpmeet and companion to the governing body of Her Husband Adam.
Seeing it this way allows you to look at statements that appear a bit awkward in a new light that makes them simple and straight forward. For example, Adam said that Eve is "bone of my bone and flesh of my flesh". So, some individuals are members of both Adam's body and Eve's body at the same time. I am such a case. I have taken the oath and covenant of the Melchizedek Priesthood and am thereby a member of that body. I have also receive the birth of water and spirit that Jesus spoke of, which is in connection with the process of being baptized by water and by fire, which process makes you a member of the Church of Jesus Christ. This makes me a member of the Bride's body as well as a member of the Husband's body. In this way, literally, Eve is bone of Adam's bone and flesh of Adam's flesh.
So, think of Adam as the Priesthood body and Eve as the Bride or the Church body.
In God's eyes these flesh and bone beings are totally distinct and His Laws are applied to them just as they are applied to individuals. You can see this same thing in the Old Testament. God named the people of Israel Aholah and Aholibah and treated them as if the northern kingdom and the southern kingdom were thereby two distinct individuals. Both of these women committed adultery against their Husband Jehovah and as a consequence these two kingdoms were "stoned to death", which is when they were sacked and taken into captivity by Assyria and Babylon.
A person elsewhere in this discussion suggest that Adam was the first to be given free will as opposed to his contemporary humans who were not afforded that level of individual autonomy. I would only wish to modify this to suggest that Adam is a golden age society that rules and reigns during the Millennial period when an old creation is ending and a new creation is beginning. Adam is the governing society that gives true liberty and free-will to those who are a part of that society. The lifespan of 930 years corresponds much better with a millennial golden age society vs. a single individual.
If you can grasp what I have shared thus far then you can start to see how Adam and Eve can in fact be a current and immediately relevant narrative to understand. From my point of view, this narrative is one that repeats with each cycle of creation, which means I consider the "creation" to be a geo-geneo-political creation vs. a cosmic creation. This is why ancient historians find very similar stories of past Christs, Saviors, Messiahs, etc. because this planet has hosted many repeated cycles in our ancient history as the race of Man recreates itself over and over again.
Genesis 24 explicitly tells you that everything mentioned in the depiction of the 7 days of creation pertains to genealogies. "These ARE the generations." All of it pertains to people and it is speaking about what lineages and what levels of spiritual glory people are fore-ordained to experience from cycle to cycle of creation. Every cycle has its Adam, Eve, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Mohammed, etc.
The creation account is in and of itself a blueprint of the creation. It spans 7 Lord's Days, which are as a thousand years unto man. This means we have a repeat of Adam every 6 to 7 thousand years. Each Day of Creation is the blueprint for the corresponding Millennium. We have just finished up Day 6 and are moving into Day 7, which is the Sabbath Day Millennium.
Adam is here now because He comes at the latter days of creation at the very end of Day 6, which is the end of the 6th Millennia, to lay the foundation for the new creation to follow. He does transgress and fall, but Adam is ministered to and redeemed and He retakes His throne in glory and victory by casting Lucifer (Cain) down from having usurped the Father's throne.
This isn't exactly how it is, but it is very close You can look at the society that was granted to the citizens of the United states of America that gave them the greatest measure of liberty any people have enjoyed since the beginning of documented history. But, this society has become corrupted and polluted because it partook of forbidden fruit. However, in due time it shall throw off the usurper Lucifer and regain its proper station and glory and establish a golden age society that will rule and reign the world in righteousness. That is the destiny that awaits the remnant who hold true to God's Law and true Liberty.
Adam is the vice-regent of God who was created in His exact same image and likeness who makes all of the eternal and binding decrees upon all those He has been given dominion over. It is Adam who "names" all the "creatures" and fore-ordains them to where they belong in the following cycle of creation. We are judged by Adam and He writes our fore-ordained destiny in the Lamb's Book of Life.
I could keep going but I think you should get my point about taking Adam as a flesh and bone being in a literal (tangible) sense.
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Very interesting; thank you for showing me those verses. So essentially the translations are incorrect regarding "fil Ard" and "Jannat?" The most accurate translation is "land" and "garden."
What verses indicate that Adam was a member of a civilization of other people?
highlight above is from me.
In 230 GOD says, He was placing a substitute/KHALIFAH on Earth, and then the angels wonder whether this substitution would end up in corruption and bloodshed again. This, most likely is a generational substitution, not an individual one.
In 236 GOD says, ?get down all of you?. The phrase, ?all of you?, means a group, not an individual.
In 333 GOD says, He picked/chose Adam over all the people. This pick is from among a population.
Peace,
Khalil -
highlight above is from me.
In 230 GOD says, He was placing a substitute/KHALIFAH on Earth, and then the angels wonder whether this substitution would end up in corruption and bloodshed again. This, most likely is a generational substitution, not an individual one.
In 236 GOD says, ?get down all of you?. The phrase, ?all of you?, means a group, not an individual.
In 333 GOD says, He picked/chose Adam over all the people. This pick is from among a population.
Peace,
KhalilThank you very much brother. I think it's very interesting that Adam is not mentioned as the "first man" in the Quran. I think, with respect to all the evidences shown, I can accept Adam as a real individual now.
Peace be with you.
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Regardless, we still haven't addressed the key issue was Adam in heaven or on earth? According to 235, he was in "Jannat." Can "Jannat" be any ordinary garden? From my understanding, it is specifically referencing Paradise.
Peace,
Please take a look at this, it will help you understand Jannat, inshaAllah.
May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path pr
mmkhan -
Peace,
Please take a look at this, it will help you understand Jannat, inshaAllah.
May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path pr
mmkhanSalaam,
Thank you very much. I noticed you placed a post about Adam, as well, and from my short skimming (I will read it all tomorrow insh'Allah), it seems you believe "Adam" is not a single man, but "Man" as in "Mankind?" This was my original belief, as well, but other posters here have given strong arguments that Adam was a true human being among a civilization of humans. I will read more insh'Allah )
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Peace Family,
Here are a few ayats to consider regarding adam
O people, observe your Lord; the One who created you from one being, and created
from it its mate, then spread from the two many men and women. You shall regard GOD,
by whom you swear, and regard the parents. GOD is watching over you.O children of Adam, do not let the devil dupe you as he did when he caused the
eviction of your parents from Paradise, and the removal of their garments to expose
their bodies. He and his tribe see you, while you do not see them. We appoint the
devils as companions of those who do not believeHe created you from one person. Subsequently, He gives every man a
mate to find tranquility with her. She then carries a light load that she can hardly notice.
As the load gets heavier, they implore GOD their Lord "If You give us a good baby, we
will be appreciative."Adam had no mother or father, while jesus had no father.
The example of Jesus, as far as GOD is concerned, is the same as that of
Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him, "Be," and he was.This is the truth from your Lord; do not harbor any doubts.
And of course "Adam" is a proper male name and not a country or community.
We are also refered to as the children or decendants of adam 36/60, 19/58,
17/70, 7/172.God Bless
peace
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Salaam,
Thank you very much. I noticed you placed a post about Adam, as well, and from my short skimming (I will read it all tomorrow insh'Allah), it seems you believe "Adam" is not a single man, but "Man" as in "Mankind?" This was my original belief, as well, but other posters here have given strong arguments that Adam was a true human being among a civilization of humans. I will read more insh'Allah )
If you carefully read my post in this thread you will come to see that both of these are true.
Adam is a specific group or subset of humanity that as a collective, due to entering into a covenant of union, function as a single body of flesh and bone. Prior to entering into this covenant, they are brought to a level of spiritual enlightenment that enables them to be champions for liberty and those laws of God that foster the protection of everyone's unalienable rights granted by our Creator.
You can think of the Founding Fathers of the USA as an example of Adamic souls. However, the USA is only a partial foreshadow of the Kingdom of the Father that is yet to obtain its victory. This Kingdom is the Kingdom that is given to Adam in the latter days as prophesied by Daniel. And, even though Adam and His Bride (the Church) transgress and fall, They are ministered to and redeemed and They are able to retake Their throne in victory and they are who rule and reign as Christ during the Millennium. This is the Kingdom and the Church in a purified and sanctified state.
Jews, Catholics, Muslims, Protestants, Mormons, etc. are all looking for the coming of Christ and for a new Wedding to take place. The Mosaic covenant will be fully completed, including the punitive provisions, and then a new Moses will deliver a new remnant and this will be a new Adam and Eve marriage covenant with a Kingship. Just as the coming of Jesus followed the format of the spring feasts, the coming of the Father shall follow the format of the fall feasts.
It's important to know the provisions of how the fall feasts work. If the barley isn't sufficiently ripe the fall harvest is called off and a new month is added to the Jewish calendar for that year and then the harvest recommences in the following month. This gives the provision for the Father to come and start the latter day harvest but for things to go awry due to the immaturity of what is being harvested. Therefore, it can be called off and started again subsequently.
So, just as Jesus was taken and reserved for a later time, so too will the advent of the Father be taken at the time of His first coming and be reserved for a later time. Then, on this 3rd advent everything will be in place for the fall harvest of souls to be performed. It will begin with the blowing of trumpets, etc. and proceed just as it says in the Book of Revelation. This is all about Christ as Adam, of which body we can be eligible to participate in because the time for the fulfillment of these prophecies is now.
The Qur'an gives confirmation to me of the truth of what I have shared here. But, I acknowledge that I read the Qur'an with a different perspective than traditional Muslims do so they may have some trouble seeing it the way I do. I would be very interested in hearing if they are aware of anything in the Qur'an that contradicts this.
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Salaam,
Thank you very much. I noticed you placed a post about Adam, as well, and from my short skimming (I will read it all tomorrow insh'Allah), it seems you believe "Adam" is not a single man, but "Man" as in "Mankind?" This was my original belief, as well, but other posters here have given strong arguments that Adam was a true human being among a civilization of humans. I will read more insh'Allah
Salaam,
You are welcome brother handshake
Thanks for reading my posts. I have an update on Adam referring to a first single person. InshaAllah, I will post my new understanding on my Adam's thread as soon as I can.May Allah bless you pr
mmKhan -
highlights above are from me.
the paradise of the LAST DAY is yet to be created. It is a FUTURE event.
Where does it state this in the Quran?
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Peace,
In fact the Paradise already exist. Those who are the "elite" will go straight to Heaven, ie to High Heaven, while the Lower Heaven will wait until the Judgment Day. If Lower Heaven exists already is not clear however, but there needs to be a High Heaven in existence already or the Quran would be contradicting itself. A bit of reading of Quran will reveal this. Take a look.
Hell, on the other hand, seems not to be in existence yet and will be created in the 'end of days'.
God bless you
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Peace,
In fact the Paradise already exist. Those who are the "elite" will go straight to Heaven, ie to High Heaven, while the Lower Heaven will wait until the Judgment Day. If Lower Heaven exists already is not clear however, but there needs to be a High Heaven in existence already or the Quran would be contradicting itself. A bit of reading of Quran will reveal this. Take a look.
Hell, on the other hand, seems not to be in existence yet and will be created in the 'end of days'.
God bless you
Thank you very much. Yes, I was doing some further reading last night and came to the same conclusion.
With peace
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Where does it state this in the Quran?
Sorry for the delay. My bad. ;D
3133,
Be quick in the race for forgiveness from your Lord and for a Garden whose width is that (of the whole) of the heavens and of the earth, prepared for the righteous.
5721,Be ye foremost (in seeking) Forgiveness from your Lord, and a Garden (of Bliss), the width whereof is as the width of Heaven and earth, prepared for those who believe in Allah and His messengers that is the Grace of Allah which He bestows on whom He pleases and Allah is the Lord of Grace abounding.
The above two verses inform us that the paradise will be as big as the whole creation. This paradise cannot exist now because there is ZERO room for it if it is going to be as big as the whole creation. It will be created through the process of evolution in the future and is going to replace the present Universe.
The following verse tell us that this Universe will end and a new one will come out of it.
21104,The Day that we roll up the heavens like a scroll rolled up for books (completed) even as We produced the first Creation, so shall We produce a new one a promise We have undertaken truly shall We fulfill it.
Verse 2920 tells us to go and find out how the creation started, then afterwards GOD will create the Hereafter.
Say "Travel through the earth and see how Allah did originate creation so will Allah produce a later creation for Allah has power over all things.
And, 5347,
And that upon Him is to bringing out the last creation.
Peace,
Khalil